Unpopular Opinions you have of Smash 4

[Null2000]

The Wii U is a dead console. If Nintendo want's to keep Smash 4 in the lime light, they need to bring it to their new system, either as a port or a new game entirely. Nintendo seems to be starting to listen to the Smash community. Brawl was so clearly designed not to be competitive, but with Smash 4 that is not so obvious. Sure, you cant ledge hog or chain grab at all anymore, but the online mode for 1v1 has items off by default and condensed versions of stages intended for competitive play. To me it seems like there was an internal conflict in the development of Smash 4. It is as if Nintendo insisted that the game start to acknowledge the competitive scene, and Sakarai resisted. I would like to see what their new Smash would look like, given that they have come back down to earth and recognized that they need to satisfy their fans first and everyone else second. Smash 4 to me is honestly a freak show. It is the oddest mixed bag of compromise in gaming history.

This is my response to you, but also my unpopular opinion.

In addition, deep down I think that Nintendo's ability to patch the game has forever changed what Smash can be. If you spend time discovering the most effective strategies with a certain character, it may be that they are eventually deemed too strong, and your ability to use those effective strategies is taken away. The game is so subject to change, that I hesitate to put time into it myself. When Smash 4 originally came out, I figured out that you could down tilt after Link's jab, and that this was very effective. My entire game hinged around this technique, but then they patched it out, and I quit, because I realized that I cannot put serious effort into something that is liable to become something different at any moment. You could argue that the things they are taking out are "broken," but the previous smash titles are rife with broken moves. An exploit like wave dashing would have been patched out by now if it existed in Smash 4. Originality is stifled and playing in unexpected and exiting ways is made downright impossible. It is as if the spirit of smash is being strangled alive.

Exactly what I mean lol. Too much hype for something that isn't even confirmed and talked about way too much for my liking.

In reply to the second paragraph, I don't want to argue, but when Smash 4 characters were nerfed the players of said characters worked harder and put more effort into their character. For example, Sheik. No one used any of her kill confirms except for down throw > uair, and so I think the nerf was very much needed for the Sheik community to specifically grow. I think that the patches did a lot more good than harm honestly.

 

[FUNT1MER]

I just want Conker in smash brothers..... life's tough bro

1. Ness, Lucas, Olimar, and King Dedede are stupid. They're cool in their own games, but they should have stayed there.
2. I don't enjoy playing against anyone who mains any of the above characters, and I've even deleted someone I added because they were too good with Olimar. I've grown to despise that character, unlike the other three. The salt I strong in this one

 

[kirbstr]

Melee and Brawl do not have completely game breaking glitches because Nintendo put the necessary time in to them the first time around. They knew they couldn't patch problems out. Is Smash 4 better now overall? Sure. Should it have needed all these patches to begin with? No. They designed it with less care because they knew they could address problems after the fact. It's no way to design a smash game. Some people spend years of their lives analyzing literally every frame of every character. Exploits and glitches aside, if the game is not static it is not as competitively viable, especially when Nintendo is taking a proactive approach in eliminating everything they consider even slightly cheap. Discovering advanced techniques has no value anymore, because they are stricken from the game almost as quickly as they are discovered. If you are the type of player who studies the mechanics of the game in search of anything that will give you an edge, you will likely find your efforts in vain, and the more exciting and effective what you have discovered is, the more likely it will be taken from you. If melee were designed this way, Smashboards probably wouldn't even exist.

But I have hope. I take heart in the fact that Nintendo has at least in some ways acknowledged the competitive scene of Smash Bros with Smash 4, which was hardly the case in the Brawl era, when it seemed that Sakarai had a personal vendetta against us all.

Well, you have to take into consideration that this game is literally double the size of brawl so obviously not every scenario will be accounted for in the debugging phase of development. I look at it more like this: Instead of us getting the game in 2016 fully tested and patched, we got it two years early and still had more to look forward to. It makes sense that as smash games get bigger and bigger, more and more exploits and glitches will be found. This doesn't mean that the development was rushed, it just means that there was more for them to overlook. After the criticism that brawl received from the fanbase due to it being ublalnced, they wanted to make this game as balanced as possible no matter what. This meant that they would patch out ANY potential "free KO" types exploits or set ups in the game including chain grabs and edgehogs. The Hoo Haa probably traumatized them early on as well. But like you said, this means that they ARE indeed acknowledging the competitive scene. character balancing is really hard to do in a game so focused on a centralized metagame in the competitive scene. It is VERY hard to predict the metagame for these types of games, so the fact that they took a look at what the players were saying and changed things was an astronomical step forward. They got to see what was good and what wasn't and balance the game based on our opinions, that's awesome. So while certain things like links jab-jab set ups had to be removed, other characters got to be buffed to the point of them being considered "top tier" such as mewtwo and marth.

 

[Deleted member]

The Wii U is a dead console. If Nintendo want's to keep Smash 4 in the lime light, they need to bring it to their new system, either as a port or a new game entirely. Nintendo seems to be starting to listen to the Smash community. Brawl was so clearly designed not to be competitive, but with Smash 4 that is not so obvious. Sure, you cant ledge hog or chain grab at all anymore, but the online mode for 1v1 has items off by default and condensed versions of stages intended for competitive play. To me it seems like there was an internal conflict in the development of Smash 4. It is as if Nintendo insisted that the game start to acknowledge the competitive scene, and Sakarai resisted. I would like to see what their new Smash would look like, given that they have come back down to earth and recognized that they need to satisfy their fans first and everyone else second. Smash 4 to me is honestly a freak show. It is the oddest mixed bag of compromise in gaming history.

This is one of the reasons why I feel like Smash 4 lacks a soul. Melee and Brawl had clear goals in mind (make a bigger and better sequel for the former and make a story for the latter), but Smash 4 doesn't. It wants to be a competitive game, but it also wants to be a casual party game. The compromises it made to satisfy both needs is very off-putting and strange.
I don't have the same joy from playing 4 as I do with older titles. It's not fun casually nor competitively in my opinion; the stages aren't that fun and the items are overpowered casually, while competitively feels so off with some questionable balance decisions. The other modes aren't that fun at all; Classic Mode on Wii U is not Classic Mode at all, Smash Tour is incredibly pointless, and I question why Break the Targets was replaced by an Angry Birds clone.
It's hard to focus on both at once, especially when you are making two versions. But if I was Sakurai, I would remove omega stages for competitive versions with removed hazards and such for the competitive side, while making all around fun stages casually. There are some nice stages in 4, but others feel terrible to play on (Palutena's Temple, Pac-Land, and Great Cave Offensive to name a few).
Despite the amount of content in Smash 4, it feels like there isn't a whole lot to do. It's become my least favorite entry in the Smash series.

 

[prettynice]

This one is quite simple, and I'm sure a ton of people won't agree with me (as they probably won't know the background of who I'm about to refer to), but I don't think Lucina should've even been in Sm4sh. Yes, I understand she was popular at the time (and, if I'm not mistaken, still is), but I think they should've added one other FE girl before Lucina. And, I think that girl should've been Caeda, from Fire Emblem: Shadow Dragon and the Blade of Light. Marth's game, in other words. She would've been a unique add, because instead of the quintessential swordsman, she uses an Iron Lance. It'd be dope to see a character who uses a lance as a weapon. Not taking anything away from Robin, who's another character in FE who uses something other than a sword. But, yeah, honestly, Caeda should've been the first Fire Emblem female they added, and then perhaps Lucina in another game. I mean, it is justifiable that Caeda wasn't added in Sm4sh. She's pretty insignificant to a standard Sm4sher.

 

[Lou Base]

Characters:
Luigi is underated, top 20 or 15 at least
Same with Roy,he should be up a few
Lucina is overated, should stay at 25-30
Palu and Jr. are trash, should be bottom 3
Zelda, Ganon, and Dedede are underated

Stages:
Ban Lylat already
Other Modes:
Should have that when buying trophies, half AT LEAST should be new ones (3 for 3ds, 4 for Wii U)
Overall its solid

 

[Kigame]

I want 's old moveset back
Because it's fun to use his down
Repeatedly and kill your opponent

I actually like smash tour... I don't know why

 

[Nohbl]

There are some nice stages in 4, but others feel terrible to play on (Palutena's Temple, Pac-Land, and Great Cave Offensive to name a few).

If you don't regularly play omega Great Cave Offensive with no BGM track except Dedede's theme ver. 2, you aren't playing tr4sh

 

[Starkuss]

I cannot stand using a GCC. It feels so awkward to hold.

 

[Ze Diglett]

I swear we had a thread like this around the time of Smash Wii U's release... well, here's hoping this thread doesn't get derailed as bad as the last one and is able to sustain itself. Anyway, my stuff:

• Little Mac is bar none the least fun character to play against in the entire Smash series. Yes, worse than Sonic, worse than Bayo, worse than any projectile spammer you can name.
• For Glory and omega stages should never have been a thing.
• So-called "style" and "disrespect" have been gradually ruining this game and its community ever since release.
• Similarly, "no johns" is incredibly stupid and desperately needs to die.
• PAC-LAND is one of the best stages aesthetically.
• Ridley isn't a good pick for a new Metroid rep and is best left a boss character.
• Mr. Game & Watch will never be better than low-mid tier in his current state.
• Pac-Man is not low-tier just because his grab is bad.
• Rosa is top 5.

 

[SN Kurse]

Bayonetta is actually fun to watch and I don't think she's at all harmful to the game as is.

 

[Guido65]

I think mii swordfighter isn't as bad as most people think he is. He's not good but the super bad stigma behind him clouds peoples judgements on the character way too much.

 

[Spiwizzle]

That the 3ds version has better stage design.

 

[Crystanium]

Lylat Cruise should not have replaced Duck Hunt.

 

[Guido65]

Lylat Cruise should not have replaced Duck Hunt.

Neither of them should even be a legal stage at all to begin with. Lylat's a buggy mess of a stage and Duck Hunt promotes toxic and degenerate gameplay.

 

[Spiwizzle]

Duck Hunt promotes toxic and degenerate gameplay.

How?

 

[Crystanium]

Neither of them should even be a legal stage at all to begin with. Lylat's a buggy mess of a stage and Duck Hunt promotes toxic and degenerate gameplay.

How do you define "toxic and degenerate gameplay [sic]"?

 

[Guido65]

How?

Pretty much things like just camping in the tree timing out and circle camping.

How do you define "toxic and degenerate gameplay [sic]"?

It really depends but I find things like the way duck hunt promotes circle camping mostly. Not so sure on what other people consider toxic gameplay.

 

[Crystanium]

Pretty much things like just camping in the tree timing out and circle camping.


It really depends but I find things like the way duck hunt promotes circle camping mostly. Not so sure on what other people consider toxic gameplay.

Yeah, I'm going to disagree with you on that because the only characters I'm aware of who suffer from this are Little Mac and Ganondorf.

 

[GunGunW]

- Subspace Emissary was awesome and I wish they would have done something similar for Smash 4 even if it took extra development time/resources.

- I still think Cloud was a lame choice for a DLC character, and he's the only DLC character I didn't download (though I'm happy for anyone that did want him, I don't think anyone reasonably expected him to get in so it's cool for his fans that he did)

- I guess I don't fully mind if Switch only gets a Smash 4 port instead of a full on sequel. But I think they should include the features from both versions of the game, as well as all the DLC.

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm part of the reason why this thread got locked last time so sorry in advance if that happens again!

 

[Ze Diglett]

- Subspace Emissary was awesome and I wish they would have done something similar for Smash 4 even if it took extra development time/resources.

I couldn't agree more. The lack of any sort of Adventure Mode (or any fun/replayable singleplayer mode, for that matter) is what puts Smash 4 just below Melee and Brawl in my book, even for all the technical and mechanical improvements it made overall. In fact, if they do choose to port Smash 4 over to Switch for a "definitive" release, a true Adventure Mode, be it Melee-esque or Brawl-esque in terms of scale, is one of my top hopes.

 

[LeWaddleDee]

, , and should never have been added.

I don't oppose the addition of , , and (though obviously I'm a bit biased on that)

I don't think should be added back. What's the point of having Ice Climbers if the game has no chaingrabbing?

 

[Spiwizzle]

I don't think should be added back. What's the point of having Ice Climbers if the game has no chaingrabbing?

LOL

 

[Hydgen]

Mario is top 5

 

[Guido65]

is more broken than pre patch .

 

[Ze Diglett]

Thought of another one I forgot to mention: I find most of the alternate costumes in the game to be boring and/or just plain ugly. This is why I stick with the default costume on every character I use, although there are a few costumes that I genuinely like, such as Game Boy Dedede, Famicom R.O.B., and Classic Wario.

 

[TigerBizNiz]

Roy is bad and has no potential.

That is all.

 

[HerbsnSpices910]

Thought of another one I forgot to mention: I find most of the alternate costumes in the game to be boring and/or just plain ugly. This is why I stick with the default costume on every character I use, although there are a few costumes that I genuinely like, such as Game Boy Dedede, Famicom R.O.B., and Classic Wario.

Agree with this 1000000%, but I think the biggest problem with including actual alts is hurtboxes. It's all well and good to have wedding outfit Mario from Super Mario Odyssey as an alt, for example, but then technically his top hat (should) extend his hurtbox, which then changes the character. This is just one bad example (couldn't think of a better one at this moment in time) but you see what I mean.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Agree with this 1000000%, but I think the biggest problem with including actual alts is hurtboxes. It's all well and good to have wedding outfit Mario from Super Mario Odyssey as an alt, for example, but then technically his top hat (should) extend his hurtbox, which then changes the character. This is just one bad example (couldn't think of a better one at this moment in time) but you see what I mean.

What about Mario Strikers Bowser? The metal claws should give him more range on moves like Fair.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Oh wow. I actually think this topic is kinda neat because it's not just another competitive one but I'm probably gonna make quite a few people salty

Bayonetta should not have been in the game. I am surprisingly okay with Snake in Brawl even though his game is M-rated too but he's kind of a generic military guy. Bayonetta on the other hand has way too many family-unfriendly implications and is just too dark for this game. (Some of which still made it in - why does this E10+ game have a blatant reference to climax in it?) Also the smash ballot winner should have been a Nintendo character. We got one new Nintendo character via DLC and that was Corrin?

Edit: I'll admit I'm kind of a prude with the whole Bayonetta thing but from a conceptual standpoint she's one of my favorite characters. I just wish all the cool stuff like her smash attacks, witch time and the cool trails she leaves weren't attached to the Bayonetta brand as I still feel like it's too much for the target audience.

One of the major issues I had with this game and a major reason I went back to 64 is the competitive community. I'll admit I sound like a filthy casual when I'm saying this, but as a customs fan and a Mii main, listening to all the infighting was incredibly painful for me. It probably has something to do with the fact that I was on the losing side both times, but I'm usually the holder of unpopular opinions in the competitive community and I never experienced the levels of vitriol as I did during those dark days. I also made some great friends in the community through smash 4, but the constant fighting over the ruleset hit me harder in this game than any other (granted I wasn't around for the Brawl days but I have very little issue with this for Melee and 64).

EDIT: I will agree with the majority that logistically customs were a nightmare, but that's not really an unpopular opinion now is it? I still am torn about the Mii issue though. If each had a default size I see nothing gamebreaking about choosing your specials when no one else can because that's how the game and the characters were designed.

The final nail in the coffin for me with this game was the choices the dev team made in sound design. Reusing the menu sounds from Brawl, which were already annoying to begin with, was a bad idea. The music is admittedly amazing and has been since Melee, but the in-game sounds ruin the whole experience for me. Also Mario and Peach's voices in Brawl and this game are terrible.

I really don't like Mario in this game. Why does he always look angry? He didn't in 64 and Melee.

Duck Hunt and the Koopalings were awesome inclusions and don't get near the love they deserve because "low tier". Maybe that's what the Marvel vs. Capcom Infinite guy meant when he said people see characters as functions.

I like the concept of stage bosses. Could they have been better by not being so op (Ridley teaming up with you was a cool concept but flawed in execution) or having yellow devil appear less? Probably. But they were still kinda fun to have around.

And I'll definitely not be popular with this one, but if a non-video game character has had a clear connection with Nintendo, like the Ninja Turtles did during the NES days or Hamtaro during the GBA days, I don't see any problem with their inclusion. Licensed games have been a thing from the beginning for better or worse.

 

[DonkaFjord]

Melee and Brawl do not have completely game breaking glitches because Nintendo put the necessary time in to them the first time around. They knew they couldn't patch problems out. Is Smash 4 better now overall? Sure. Should it have needed all these patches to begin with? No. They designed it with less care because they knew they could address problems after the fact. It's no way to design a smash game. Some people spend years of their lives analyzing literally every frame of every character. Exploits and glitches aside, if the game is not static it is not as competitively viable, especially when Nintendo is taking a proactive approach in eliminating everything they consider even slightly cheap. Discovering advanced techniques has no value anymore, because they are stricken from the game almost as quickly as they are discovered. If you are the type of player who studies the mechanics of the game in search of anything that will give you an edge, you will likely find your efforts in vain, and the more exciting and effective what you have discovered is, the more likely it will be taken from you. If melee were designed this way, Smashboards probably wouldn't even exist.

But I have hope. I take heart in the fact that Nintendo has at least in some ways acknowledged the competitive scene of Smash Bros with Smash 4, which was hardly the case in the Brawl era, when it seemed that Sakarai had a personal vendetta against us all.

To be fair Smash 4 has more stages and characters than the other games, and some of the characters and stages have more complex gimmicks than any of the other Smash games. It might be less "they sent out a half-baked game cause they knew they could patch it" and more of a fact it's near impossible to catch all bugs before releasing it to the largest "bug testing" group you have yet (the consumers buying it who will put it through so many different scenarios.) You have to remember that the added content isn't just adding a single character- they have to test that character with every other character's movesets and on a variety of stages and under the conditions of various items and with every gimmick that character has. There are more variables in Smash 4 than the rest of the series.
You also have to remember that the game industry also expects games to get bigger and 'better' with each installment- We don't expect the same from movie sequels or books sequels. You also have to remember many investors also want these games to ship out on the same deadline as the last game. That's probably why games are getting a bit bloated and janky (plus, like you said, some studios know you can patch it post-launch.) But from the attitude Sakurai has in his written column and from what some treehouse employees have said, relying on post patches and shipping isn't his "style." Nintendo also seems like they want to ship their larger releases with as much polish as they can- they seem like they'd rather delay it then ship it and patch it.
I know updates are a mixed bag- new techniques become less valuable because things can change on a month-to-month basis, but on the other hand things won't be game breaking. Hopefully Smash follows Splatoon and ARMS and gives more detailed patchnotes- that'd probably help the community a lot more.

Also this may be unpopular, but Brawl had a reason to be designed the way it was. The Wii had brought a lot of people into gaming who previously haven't been interested in video games. The game was designed with their enjoyment in mind as well, especially because an online mode was being implemented into the game. It wasn't necessarily a 'Screw you' to competitive players, but catering to the larger audience of the game by sales (who would also be online) which would be casuals. Was it the right decision instead of matchmaking or some other compromise? I don't know, I am not a game designer (most would say tripping is definitely a mistake, etc.) but I do see the pressure to make Brawl more... beginner friendly. By beginner I mean beginner to videogames as a whole as well.

Nintendo does seem to be becoming more supportive of the competitive scene for their games (Splatoon, ARMS) and Smash.
Edit: This is all just a guess/subjective. I could be all wrong. Figured I should throw that out there.

 

[TheDuke54]

Most of the stages for Smash 4 aren't all that great...and the ones that are were ports of previous Smashes. Also Ridley is annoying in his stage. It'd be fine if he was just a nuisance to everyone. The fact that he can be sided with a fighter ruined the stage. After he shows up in the match, it's a crapshoot and run around and bash Ridley match.

 

[MercuryPenny]

that really isn't an unpopular opinion lol. i'm pretty sure even the most diehard apologists for smash 4 can agree that the stages are trash, at least in wii u

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

At least the Omega form stages remove all stage hazards. It's too bad that for the normal stages, you have to do 5+ player matches if you don't want stage hazards like Ridley and Metal Face to interfere with your matches.

 

[NL | STI]

1. Stupid Trainingsmode!
2. Pika no real true Killsetups.
3. Bayonetta, Ness, Cloud, Rosalina doesnt fit in the game and too strong (Ness Backthrow Noob)
4. Good balanced.
5. Good quality
6. Only few patches
7. Zelda nerf..

 

[Peachach]

Char pruning/modifications: Most non-Nintendo characters suck and should not be in the game. Even though they are admirable integrated, I could do without Sonic or Cloud. | Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike.. scrap two. | Corrin and Robin are annoying poo characters, both can go out. Bayonetta is too annoying and doesn't fit in with the cast in terms of her moves.

Game speed should be 1.1 of what it is now.

There should be a 1 on 1 For no glory mode where you can state what chars you want to fight against or not.

For Glory should not just be flat stages. I mean, what the H***?? Smash is built around platforms. It should be at least flat or battlefield.

 

[A Scrub]

Smash 4 is better than Melee

Chain grabbing should be in this game

Fighting against Bayo and Cloud are enjoyable MU's IMO

Mii's should be played smallest size with any combo of movesets - But other than that customs should be banned for all other characters.

Kongo 64, Duck Hunt Stage, and Pilot Wings should be legalized

For Glory should not just be flat stages. I mean, what the H***?? Smash is built around platforms. It should be at least flat or battlefield.

I agree that For Glory should have triplats.

Char pruning/modifications: Most non-Nintendo characters suck and should not be in the game. Even though they are admirable integrated, I could do without Sonic or Cloud. | Marth, Lucina, Roy, Ike.. scrap two. | Corrin and Robin are annoying poo characters, both can go out. Bayonetta is too annoying and doesn't fit in with the cast in terms of her moves.

You know that Fire Emblem is Nintendo IP right? I mean it's not like they detract from the game anyways. Character diversity is good for the meta.

 

[Peachach]

I definitely am not against char diversity, but some are too close to each and some stray too much from the formula, even though I admire how well they are integrated. And I didn't mean to imply I would only mention non Nintendo-IP. I agree Smash 4 is better than Melee. As a n ex-Melee player I do miss just a few things, but not enough to want it back.

 

[TDK]

hoo boy...

- should be banned from doubles as a whole.
- is the least hype character in the game to watch and is as stupid as Bayo but only slightly harder.
- Free ladder combos should be removed from the game.
- should get full range needles and fair back. And no, neither of those are as dumb as Bayo's hitboxes.
- is very interesting to watch.
- gets FAR too much hate.
- is not a secret high tier and never will be, he's barely mid tier.
- is a mid tier but I'll concede there isn't much reason to pick him over regular Mario.
- are bottom 10.
- Pichu should be in the game. A self-damaging character in a game with rage would be really interesting.
- is the worst character in smash 4.

 

[Hotcakes]

is the most slept on character in the entire game. They've got great mobility, amazing start up frames, and a solid grab game. I don't see how they're not better than everyone currently within E tier on the current tier list. I'm talking about 1111 standard size as well.