underused stuff

[-ACE-]

Ledgehop jab. your timing doesn't have to be flawless to get full invincibility throughout the jab. It's very fast and relatively safe when used properly. Ledgehop grab, which also has it's uses, is fully invincible if you're frame perfect.

honestly i think the tipman spike is underused by quite a few ganons. I sorta cringe every time i see a spacie or marth get a free ledge. if at the last second you realize he's going to illusion onstage instead of sweetspot, bair. after you uair spike the sweespot, if they up-b in range of a safe dropzone dair, do itttt

what do you guys think is underused?

 

[Geenareeno]

CC d-tilt. Like just baiting something and then d-tilt fair, doesn't work on really good players. But you can still do a cc d-tilt if you just cc an attack, rather than baiting them. F-tilt followups on throws or anything really. Side-b on jiggs is a kill at like 100%. When the platforms are low on FoD you can drop through and Nair, since it's pretty much the only arial that hit's below/behind you in the amount of time you have. Also the weird hitbox on the end of dash attack, and ff nair so just the first one comes out. I did this to a cpu link the other day, so it is not legit but maybe with some experimentation. First hit Nair > Dash attack (hitbox and the end that sends them nowhere > Dash attack (regular). You could probably follow up the first dash attack with an u-air instead but i'll try it on some people with di sometime.

 

[Manondorf]

I think up-b oos is under used by ganons, including myself. Part of the reason why I don't use it very much, and I'm guessing this is the same for most people, is it's pretty situational and I don't know what situations it's good in.

Does anyone know of some situations where up-b oos is a good option?

 

[Geenareeno]

Iirc, the hitbox comes out on frame 13, which is pretty slow or an oos option. However, the knock back is unparalleled for a move that comes out that fast. U-air oos is generally better. Try to use in underneath platforms so it's harder for them to punish you. It's still pretty risky because of how punishable in is.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

From my experience, the UpB is only good in situations where it's a guaranteed hit. You can KO at pretty good percentages with it (usually better than the Fair), but you open yourself up so much after it that you can really only use it when you're 90-100% sure you'll hit.

I think attacking from the ledge is underused. Almost no one uses it competitively, and because of that people open themselves up to it. Ganon's one when he's below 100 has pretty good reach, so you can catch people off guard with it. I think it's pretty situational, though not as much as the UpB, and doesn't offer as much of a reward, but it's something useful to keep in mind.

 

[Larz]

CC d-tilt. Like just baiting something and then d-tilt fair, doesn't work on really good players. But you can still do a cc d-tilt if you just cc an attack, rather than baiting them. F-tilt followups on throws or anything really. Side-b on jiggs is a kill at like 100%. When the platforms are low on FoD you can drop through and Nair, since it's pretty much the only arial that hit's below/behind you in the amount of time you have. Also the weird hitbox on the end of dash attack, and ff nair so just the first one comes out. I did this to a cpu link the other day, so it is not legit but maybe with some experimentation. First hit Nair > Dash attack (hitbox and the end that sends them nowhere > Dash attack (regular). You could probably follow up the first dash attack with an u-air instead but i'll try it on some people with di sometime.

Up tilt is underused. But for good reason.

people should also use Ganondorf's down smash for reads more I think, in situations where they can predict the opponent accurately

 

[Phlames]

I tend to use up b oos when someone does a poorly spaced f smash to the back of my shield. It seems to punish well and no one is really looking for it.

 

[Superspright]

Up-B is a destroyer out of powershield. Learn it. It absolutely destroys most crossovers from most opponents except spacies who can shield pressure you.

If you can manage to powershield falco's utilt you can up-b him right after. Up-B is underused because it is hard to know when to use it, and most aren't comfortable yet with that massive grabbox it has on its first frame. That is what you should be hitting with. It's enormous. Also, Ganon's should be learning how to edge-cancel the move on the top platforms of stages like battlefield or yoshi's when they are near center stage so they don't get so punished for it. Not so easy to do, but it's possible at certain places. It's also possible to edge-cancel the move when recovering on ledge too, but that's very hard, and not very sensible all the time.


Up-B is underused for a reason. Not very safe, but it can definitely kill or send people off stage in a surprising way. Best to be used out of powershield. Out of shield it will be far too slow. As someone said earlier--uair is better, or grab.

Also, uptilt is a terrible terrible move. But I think it can be used as an edge-guard against fox. Since his up-b takes ten years. I believe frame 81-83 is the utilt hitbox and it can hitsweetspotters. Foxes up-b at the most takes 92 frames. So figure it out. It can work with perfect timing at a certain distance. But I really wanna work on that edge-canceled dair to utilt combo on fox. So impractical, but it's a guaranteed kill at very specific percents.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

i do all of these things lol

waveland from the ledge to dash attack towards the ledge is pretty good, actually.

 

[-ACE-]

Utilt is at least better than warlock punch. So much more knockback at low% (obviously this only for punishing sleeping puffs and broken shields etc)

up-b is underused, I agree. Shielded marth
Fsmashes are great for this, especially when marth is at high%

But yeah. invincible ledgehop jab. Get at it.

 

[Dorsey]

there used to be a lot of things but, not as much now. I'm also not too up to date on my ganovids so, not quite sure....

one that does come to mind though that i'm sure no one does much is bair to pivot grab. Mess around with it.. it's not some guaranteed thing, but you can get that grab out surprisingly fast with an early bair(spaced properly to your jump so it AC's I guess?) to pivot grab. L-cancel to pivot grab is applicable too but just won't be quite as fast. I l-cancel w/ Z for that so if my bair isn't quite right for the AC i'm ready to make due with a quick Z pivot Z(l-cancel pivot grab).

This isn't something you should really go for all the time, but it works on a few chars, dittos included.

 

[Linguini]

up-b oos isn't too great against characters with moves that have a minimal start up lag(falco, fox,c.fal). Pretty damn good against marths who tilt or smash on your shield, and my favorite, peach's who spam dash attack.

ledgehop jab isn't really underused. i use it a lot on people who are over aggressive in approaching me while i'm on the ledge. i've seen jason do it many times as well, it's pretty beast overall.

utilt i like using against sheik, ganon and falcon if they try to sweet spot.

BAM!

 

[-ACE-]

Ledgehop jab may not be underused by you and Jason, there are ganons outside of FL lol

 

[Bl@ckChris]

the marth killer/lightshield edgehog. it's...pretty good.

edgecanceled uair to edgehog. it's outstanding against people who understand how to avoid frame 16.

up b oos is only good if you're too slow to wavedash oos and grab in most situations where it's useful. like after a marth fsmash that doesn't tip your shield.

dtilt -> fair. dtilt in general.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

We should use U-tilt a lot more often so we can be like this: http://youtu.be/nEQoNsx9AvE#t=121

 

[Geenareeno]

Up-B is underused for a reason. Not very safe, but it can definitely kill or send people off stage in a surprising way. Best to be used out of powershield. Out of shield it will be far too slow. As someone said earlier--uair is better, or grab.

I'm quite sure they're the exact same speed. I think Kage can vouch for me. Awhile ago in Strong Bad's thread (I think) Kage was asking about oos moves and it was determined that when you jump out of sheild or powersheild it's the same. Which is what you're doing when you up-b oos. But ps > jab is 16 frames fast than sheild drop > jab.

 

[Superspright]

PS side-b is where it is at. And PS dtilt to duck people who like to jab after PS to beat it. PS Jab almost always leads to nothing. They just techroll away. If they flub it I fair it.

But, I am a little surprised that up-b would be the only move I can't use out of power-shield. Maybe I've been deceiving myself? How am I jumping though? I am inputting up and b simultaneously.

 

[Geenareeno]

Maybe I've been deceiving myself? How am I jumping though? I am inputting up and b simultaneously.

I don't know a lot about frame data or inputs but here is my theory. The game knows you can jump out of shield so it lets you up b oos. Like, you don't need to jump on frame 1, and upb on frame 2. If you input them on the same frame it will still work. That's my guess. It's the same with JC U-smash if i'm correct.

 

[Superspright]

Scenario: Powershield the attack, hold up on the control stick during shieldstun, hit B when it ends. What then? How could I jump? The answer is I can't. I think it's possible. I have done it, and it seems significantly faster. It's just hard as hell to do without jumping.

 

[Comrade]

Other than all the stuff posted here? Rising Uairs. I've thrown off way too many players by just throwing out uairs in their face over and over and over again

 

[-ACE-]

When edgeguarding spacies, you don't have to be facing forward when you jab or ftilt a illusion/phantasm. If you are already facing backwards near the ledge and need to jab or ftilt at the last second, don't pivot, just backwards jab or ftilt. Works great if they illusion at the right height.

 

[-ACE-]

Chaingrabbing is underused. Discuss.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I don't chain grab at all. I know how to do it, and I know it's useful, so I should really try it sometime.

 

[Dorsey]

Cg on sheik and dittos especially.. I mean, one grab is death. Ace actually ***** with it and always has, when it's just him and I playing...the amount of times he's cg'd me 0-bair death are very numerous. I've always been surprised as to why I don't see ganons better than him doing it.

 

[-ACE-]

I think ganons should cg falco more. On FD you cab grab falco at 70-80% and get the ko every time easily after some practice (cg to 140ish and wizard's foot ko). Obviously you can ftilt instead and hope they don't DI it, or uthrow and hope they di back for the bair ko lol, but nothing beats guaranteed death from a grab.

I cg sheik, ganons, pika, link, y.link, roy, DK, and even ness and marth, where you can only get like 2 regrabs from 0%. Once you've practiced punishing all DI's at various percents from dthrow for a while, it will get hard to pass up free damage PLUS a free aerial.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

That's a grounded Wizard's Foot, right? That's one of my favorite ways to KO someone. It's almost as cool as the aerial Wizard's Foot, which almost as cool as the Utilt, which is almost as cool as the Warlock Punch.

 

[Dorsey]

Lol, very good assessment of the coolness of ganon's moves.

 

[-ACE-]

Rofl raph, yes it is guaranteed. Dthrow falco at 140% and wf in the direction he DI's. Death.

 

[Geenareeno]

I agree about the ditto and sheik mu. The only thing is if they di behind it's really hard, but that's no excuse. It's really hard on spacies and if you drop a grab on spacies that's so bad.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

I'm glad to hear the Falco chain grab starts at 70. I'd tried to do it a few days ago, and decided that the chain grab must start at a certain percent, but hadn't looked into it enough to see what percentage that was. This saves me a lot of time. I'll use it against my friend who plays Falco.

Spoiler

On a side note, I was able to get my friend down to one stock while I was playing one handed. All I have to do is practice a bit more and I should be able to beat my friends one handed.

 

[Dorsey]

I di the CG very well. No matter what If i DI behind and shove down for a faster tech, he's got it if he's on. It's an IF though, but like 1/4 of the time in our drunken random friendlies he is(probably an even lesser fraction with peeps aside from his bro), nevertheless it's been enough for me to say he's the best chaingrabbing ganon I've ever seen... no doubt I have felt so helpless from it that my only hope is to mind-game near the center of his model so I can trick him into pivoting the wrong way. I don't even waste my damn time with making it the hardest possible chaingrab then lol.

whether his CG is on is truly a defining factor sometimes as to whether or not he wins matches against me, so i've always thought it's a huuuuuuuge factor. most under-used Ganon thing there is... It makes me very confident against other Ganons who don't impliment this...

huge v. sheik and in dittos

 

[-ACE-]

I'm glad to hear the Falco chain grab starts at 70. I'd tried to do it a few days ago, and decided that the chain grab must start at a certain percent, but hadn't looked into it enough to see what percentage that was. This saves me a lot of time. I'll use it against my friend who plays Falco.

Spoiler

On a side note, I was able to get my friend down to one stock while I was playing one handed. All I have to do is practice a bit more and I should be able to beat my friends one handed.

The falco cg actually starts at 12% or something really low. I'm just saying its easy past 70-80 going solely off reaction. That is where I start to feel confident with it anyway, cause like geen said, missing a grab vs spacies blows.

If you are having trouble getting the regrab when they di behind, practice vs the level 1 CPU, they always di behind from dthrow.

Don't just cg sheik and ganons. If you're playing vs a good link or young link, you might lose cause honestly, not chaingrabbing in those matchups is basically sandbagging.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

Alright. I had a friend who played Link/Young link for a while, although he switched to Samus because I kept 3 stocking him. Now I still 3 stock him, but he likes Samus better.

I'll go practice CGing on a lv1 Falco. On a side note, Chain grabbing might really improve my one-handed game.

Also, something I think is underused is the forward facing Uair. It's very useful for edgeguarding an opponent that's approaching from above, since it has a lot of reach, and can KO at decent percents.

 

[-ACE-]

Lmao good luck chaingrabbing falco with one hand.

Forward facing uair is absolutely great. Not underused tho imo.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

From the videos I've seen Ganon's almost never use it for edgeguarding. Maybe it's just the ones I've seen, though. I see them using it a lot on stage, which is one of my favorite things to do. On the coolness scale, forward facing Uair comes right after Fair, which is right after Aerial Dair, which is after reverse spike UAir, which is after Grounded Wizards Foot.

Yes, I have a scale of coolness with every attack on it. Because if I want to KO someone, I want to make sure I look as cool as possible while doing it.

 

[-ACE-]

Lol, dude I hear you. After I tipman spike someone and finish with an immediate dropzone aerial I feel like a BOSS haha

 

[Comrade]

There is no greater reward in life than stomping someone to kill them off the top, standing up, kissing your index and middle finger, and then raising them to the sky to thank the smash gods.

Try it. Thank me later. Mind games.

 

[RaphaelRobo]

If I'm chain grabbing correctly, should it look like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

 

[Geenareeno]

If I'm chain grabbing correctly, should it look like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

Yes, absolutely.

Lol, dude I hear you. After I tipman spike someone and finish with an immediate dropzone aerial I feel like a BOSS haha

Double Tipman. No fastfalling. So delicate. So ****.

 

[-ACE-]

If I'm chain grabbing correctly, should it look like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsNbCkzRF-s

Yes. Notice that below 70%ish he can regrab di behind simply by pivot grabbing. After that you must jc grab. And that's only full di behind, there's partial di too. Past 70% or so there are 4 options you must cover.