Unbanning Hyrule Castle

[Uair]

Is that really a problem? I see that more like a variation than a problem

what?

 

[ElViejoZunY]

Congo has no ledge walls, Peach castle has no grabbable ledge.

That

 

[Denjinpachi]

Is that really a problem? I see that more like a variation than a problem

Yeah im kinda inclined to agree with this. Just because the stage is different, doesn't really mean it should be disqualified, at least at my first glance of it. Just because the plats are rotating, and spread out, I don't see why that's a bad trait. I don't know of any hazards on it either.

Edit: Hyrule also has that tent, nados, and a whole bunch of character specific tech that is only beneficial to some. why not let there be another stage that benefits others also.

 

[Uair]

Congo and Peach castle are non-secondary maps because Hyrule is the next best map aside from Dreamland in terms of overall fairness. Yes it is a problem that Congo and Peach both lack ledge walls and Peach has no ledges to grab. Compared to every other stage these two are the 3rd/4th most fair but due to their obvious arrangements they are less viable than Dreamland/Hyrule.

I have no idea about nubcake tournaments but the legal maps that are used in real tournaments are, Peach Castle, Congo, Hyrule, Dreamland, and Saffron(as a hard counter pick). I don't really care what opinionboards decides, as far as I'm concerned the Smash64 community has a lot of ignorance surrounding what is fair/equal maps for characters. For example making Dreamland the only playable stage means Link is permanently counterpicked, and making Hyrule the only playable stage gives Fox(lasers), Mario(fireballs) and DK(true rapetent) inherit advantages. This is why we should have multiple viable stages like Mushroom Kingdom because they balance out what maps people can counterpick people in Tournaments. People argue there is too much stuff on the other maps that make them noncompetitive, but I feel and so do many other people that you should know when you're fsmash is going to make them hit the slope things or the bumper.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

But why are those things a problem? It wouldn´t be the first time that those things are in legals stages in smash history

 

[Uair]

But why are those things a problem? It wouldn´t be the first time that those things are in legals stages in smash history

Play as link on Mushroomkingdom and you tell me. Or perhaps yoshi on congo, or better yet play as Ness on saffron.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Well, opinion or not, it is unarguable that some stages are just better for some characters than others. That's the point in allowing counterpicks. This games been out for a little less than 20 years, and tbh its pretty well fleshed out. I understand why having a constant stage after all of the displayed exploits have been shown in the game, but that should be all the more reason why counterpicks are allowed. if you only give the choice of a stage that only benefits a few characters, and ban the stages that helps others, then the exploits, and advantages still exist. Only now, its just not accessible to those at the disadvantage on the constant stage.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

Play as link on Mushroomkingdom and you tell me. Or perhaps yoshi on congo, or better yet play as Ness on saffron.

Done, but once again, what is the problem with the no grabbable ledge of Peach´s and no ledge walls of Congo?

 

[Uair]

Done, but once again, what is the problem with the no grabbable ledge of Peach´s and no ledge walls of Congo?

You can't smack or hit the walls to recover by stopping your self. Ness, Fox, it should be obvious what the problem is with having no walls under it. Having no grabbable ledges means people like Link or samus aren't going to be able to recover from low.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

The idea in Congo is that you can also go trough the floor, that gives those characters way more options and places for the recovery (plus the barrel) than just the ledge

About Link or Samus with the no grabbable ledges, almost in any stage they wouldn´t be able to recovery with almost any spike off stage

 

[Uair]

The idea in Congo is that you can also go trough the floor, that gives those characters way more options and places for the recovery (plus the barrel) than just the ledge

About Link or Samus with the no grabbable ledges, almost in any stage they wouldn´t be able to recovery with almost any spike off stage

That is irrelevant, we're specifically talking about the lack of wall ledge whatever that may be called. If you're fox and you are horizontal with the ledge on congo and you upB into it, unless you land right on it you're going to go right through and probably die unless you hit that bottom slope.

What are you talking about? When link is recovering even with a good bit of height, if that bottom platform is going the opposite way as he's recoverying and he's going to bairly miss landing on it and since it's not grabbable ur ****ed. With samus it's the same way because it takes a long time to recover and the best part of samus's upB recovery is how it spaces out your hitbox to grab ledges, the stage is a complete counterpick against samus and link especially samus.

 

[Deleted member]

Done, but once again, what is the problem with the no grabbable ledge of Peach´s and no ledge walls of Congo?

none. more people should play at peaches (castletoys). best stage! <3

 

[ElViejoZunY]

That is irrelevant, we're specifically talking about the lack of wall ledge whatever that may be called. If you're fox and you are horizontal with the ledge on congo and you upB into it, unless you land right on it you're going to go right through and probably die unless you hit that bottom slope.

That´s a posibility, but if you are so afraid of it you can always choose another optión (try to go high, try to catch the barrel if you can, wait to be closer and try to recovery through the floor, etc)

What are you talking about? When link is recovering even with a good bit of height, if that bottom platform is going the opposite way as he's recoverying and he's going to bairly miss landing on it and since it's not grabbable ur ****ed. With samus it's the same way because it takes a long time to recover and the best part of samus's upB recovery is how it spaces out your hitbox to grab ledges, the stage is a complete counterpick against samus and link especially samus.

In almost any stage they wouldn´t be able to recovery with almost any spike off stage, that´s my opinion at least. In any case, you said that Dream Land is a counterpick for Link and others (I agree), so if you already knows how screwed you are and you also know that the starter stage is Dream Land and then you could be counterpicked with Peach´s, just pick another character for those matchs. The hole reason why in any smash game you can change the character (in any other traditional fighting game you can´t) is for the counterpick stage (because in any other traditional fighting game you have more than one stage, the classic box)

 

[Grahamaglam]

none. more people should play at peaches (castletoys). best stage! <3

CuddlyCastle sounds better tbh imho

 

[Uair]

That´s a posibility, but if you are so afraid of it you can always choose another optión (try to go high, try to catch the barrel if you can, wait to be closer and try to recovery through the floor, etc)



In almost any stage they wouldn´t be able to recovery with almost any spike off stage, that´s my opinion at least. In any case, you said that Dream Land is a counterpick for Link and others (I agree), so if you already knows how screwed you are and you also know that the starter stage is Dream Land and then you could be counterpicked with Peach´s, just pick another character for those matchs. The hole reason why in any smash game you can change the character (in any other traditional fighting game you can´t) is for the counterpick stage (because in any other traditional fighting game you have more than one stage, the classic box)

Dude wtf are you talking about. Nobody asked how to recover without relying on the ledge walls. I was giving you a reason why not having wall ledges or grabbable ledges is problematic and a big reason for the stage being the way it is. Do you think I don't know how to recover perfectly in every possible situation with any character any map? You can't smack the ledge with Fox or Ness because there is no wall to stop you, that's all that needs to be said, I don't care about your hypothetical ideas.

If you lose a match you can either A) Choose a new stage or B) Choose a new character. That's how 12 char battles worked anyways.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

You are telling me the reason about why that could be a problem and I´m telling you the reasons about why that could be a variation and not a problem. I know you don´t care about reasons (or even read probably)

 

[Uair]

You are telling me the reason about why that could be a problem and I´m telling you the reasons about why that could be a variation and not a problem. I know you don´t care about reasons (or even read probably)

Now you're just making basic ad hominem fallacies. I told you, for example Fox and Ness can't smack the wall-less ledge, which inhibits recovery from that way. The fact there is a barrel, or you could "recover from above" is completely irrelevant, the point here is there is no wall for you to smack, It doesn't matter how else you recover, there is no wall, there is NO WALL. Why did you have to even try to argue with me? Are you really that defensive that any argument that makes a point that you don't completely agree with you have to become hostile and agitated?

You aren't good at smash, don't make arguments on the basis you are. I made a point how not having a wall to use in recovery effects the map's equality for those characters. It's not a debate, it's a ****ing point. Do you understand?

 

[ElViejoZunY]

You can grab the ledge without walls (plus you get way more options to get the recovery)

You aren't good at smash, don't make arguments on the basis you are. I made a point how not having a wall to use in recovery effects the map's equality for those characters. It's not a debate, it's a ****ing point. Do you understand?

And I am being defensive, hostile and agitated? lol

 

[Uair]

You can grab the ledge without walls (plus you get way more options to get the recovery)

You have more recovery options with a sloped wall than you do a regular wall or no wall at all. Once again, this is not an argument. Nothing is up for debate, you are saying stuff which is not apart of the conversation. We aren't discussing how to recover on congo or peaches castle, we're talking about why walls were problematic for those stages making them less viable than Hyrule.

You are trying to state how to recover on congo, but I don't give a **** because I've played for 10+ years and have recovered nearly every possible way in every possible situation. You asked what the problems were with peach and congo, I told you what the problems were. I'm done talking to you because I'm not going to carry out opinionboard style discussions on how to play the game with people who don't know how to play the game. Good bye.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

You told me what´s the problem with Congo and Peach´s and I told you my opinion about why that could be a variation and not a problem with Peach and Congo, the ways to get the recovery are just examples

You are trying to state how to recover on congo, but I don't give a **** because I've played for 10+ years and have recovered nearly every possible way in every possible situation. You asked what the problems were with peach and congo, I told you what the problems were. I'm done talking to you because I'm not going to carry out opinionboard style discussions on how to play the game with people who don't know how to play the game. Good bye.

Once again, I know you don´t care about reasons or even read (don´t worry, that´s nothing new to me) and that this thing will end in something similar to that quote. This was more for the third person who is totally new and believes in everything he reads just because is written in the forum.

 

[Uair]

You told me what´s the problem with Congo and Peach´s and I told you my opinion

The idea in Congo is

About Link or Samus with the no grabbable ledges,

Do not argue with me, I was not promoting a debate I was simply stating facts, you are stating irrelevant rebuttals.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

Why are you still talking with me? You said you were done... Anyway, let´s go back to the topic.

 

[Tablesalt]

Dumb idea because time limits means the person who gets up on kills or gets a stock will camp back to draw the time out to win by default.

Don't have to be such a douche about it.

 

[Uair]

Don't have to be such a douche about it.

Sorry I just wanted to make sure It gets across, that this isn't brawl hacks.

 

[Crusader8389]

Uair, you keep saying not having any ledge walls makes mushroom and congo less viable than hyrule. Why do you so fervently believe having no ledge walls is bad? As you have admited yourself, you can recovery perfectly on those stages given the circumstances, so skill isn't an issue. On congo, you have extra recovery options for all characters, providing more variation in the game - the only thing you lose is missing ledge recoveries if you are bad with fox/ness, which only serves to help the game and increase skill gaps between players. On mushroom, you loose ledges which helps some characters and hurts others - how is that a problem? Being on dreamland or hyrule is extremely advantageous for some characters over others, so you might as well not play them with that argument. Once again, to me it is acceptable variance for the game to help/hurt players in counterpicks.... you mentioned fox and ness getting hurt by not having walls on mushroom, but your strictly wrong about ness - you can recover from much lower as ness on mushroom because mushroom goes lower, and a lot of times you can recover in more directions than you would be able to in DL. With fox on congo, you can recover high and recover to the ledge like you could in DL, but you can also recover low through the main stage, which serves only to help his recovery if you are decent at the game. Once again, this justs adds fuel to the argument for mushroom and congo because it entices different but still skillful gameplay - and that wasn't even taking into account the bumpers or rotating plats or barrels.

Just so you know, I love all 4 stages but still I feel your argument is a bit weak as it stands, so I would like you to clarify it for me.

 

[Uair]

Uair, you keep saying not having any ledge walls makes mushroom and congo less viable than hyrule. Why do you so fervently believe having no ledge walls is bad? As you have admited yourself, you can recovery perfectly on those stages given the circumstances, so skill isn't an issue. On congo, you have extra recovery options for all characters, providing more variation in the game - the only thing you lose is missing ledge recoveries if you are bad with fox/ness, which only serves to help the game and increase skill gaps between players. On mushroom, you loose ledges which helps some characters and hurts others - how is that a problem? Being on dreamland or hyrule is extremely advantageous for some characters over others, so you might as well not play them with that argument. Once again, to me it is acceptable variance for the game to help/hurt players in counterpicks.... you mentioned fox and ness getting hurt by not having walls on mushroom, but your strictly wrong about ness - you can recover from much lower as ness on mushroom because mushroom goes lower, and a lot of times you can recover in more directions than you would be able to in DL. With fox on congo, you can recover high and recover to the ledge like you could in DL, but you can also recover low through the main stage, which serves only to help his recovery if you are decent at the game. Once again, this justs adds fuel to the argument for mushroom and congo because it entices different but still skillful gameplay - and that wasn't even taking into account the bumpers or rotating plats or barrels.

Just so you know, I love all 4 stages but still I feel your argument is a bit weak as it stands, so I would like you to clarify it for me.

Thanks tl;dr, when you recover not having a grabbable ledge or not having a wall doesn't just limit you, it completely shuts down recovery in some situations. I'm not going to carry on a hypothetical argument with people who don't play smash. Leave me alone.

 

[Grahamaglam]

The only reason why Dream Land is the only legal Stage is because the Kirby series is the only one without a single bad game in it. In fact, some of them might even be perfect.

 

[Zantetsu]

The only reason why Dream Land is the only legal Stage is because the Kirby series is the only one without a single bad game in it. In fact, some of them might even be perfect.

Off topic but I just played through Return to Dreamland with the GF. Pretty easy but incredibly fun lol.

 

[Crusader8389]

Thanks tl;dr, when you recover not having a grabbable ledge or not having a wall doesn't just limit you, it completely shuts down recovery in some situations. I'm not going to carry on a hypothetical argument with people who don't play smash. Leave me alone.

This is not a hypothetical argument, and I do play smash quite regularly, if I didn't I wouldn't be able to or want to talk about it as much as I have, no? It is an argument for mushroom and congo, in addition to hyrule as stages for competitive play, just to clarify. I agree not having a grabbable ledge makes recovery options for a good chunk of the cast much more difficult in a lot of situations, as I regularly play link on mushroom I can certainly sympathize. I think that is certainly a valid reason for not liking the stage. Personally, I disagree with banning it based on that alone, but I can see your point of view there.

However, you only answered why you believe mushroom is not viable, not why you think congo is not (compared to hyrule). Does this mean you are no longer opposed to having no ledge walls? I noticed you did not mention it once it your response, which is strange considering it was the origin of my query.

 

[Uair]

Personally, I disagree with banning it based on that alone

That alone is why it is banned, I don't care what you agree with I'm telling you how it gets the shorter end of the stick. I don't see why you want to carry this on any further? Is it really up for debate? You'd think after 7 years opinionboards would have a profound understanding of why they disallow and allow specific maps. ignored.

 

[Tablesalt]

The only reason why Dream Land is the only legal Stage is because the Kirby series is the only one without a single bad game in it. In fact, some of them might even be perfect.

Kirby is good, but it's too slow and boring for me.

 

[GolfClubNinja]

Is it too late to say "no, just no"?

 

[Crusader8389]

That alone is why it is banned, I don't care what you agree with I'm telling you how it gets the shorter end of the stick. I don't see why you want to carry this on any further? Is it really up for debate? You'd think after 7 years opinionboards would have a profound understanding of why they disallow and allow specific maps. ignored.

The reason I want to carry this forward is to understand why you think having no ledge walls is a bad thing. That was basically my entire second paragraph last post. I believe that was your opinion several posts back? You still have not answered this, and I've made it quite clear that was one of the major things I disagreed with you on your assessment of the stages

I don't give a **** if this subject has been discussed for eons before I had my say, that doesn't mean you should just ignore my questions instead of answering me with the knowledge that those 7 years of discussions must have given you and the rest of the boards.

 

[Uair]

The reason I want to carry this forward is to understand why you think having no ledge walls is a bad thing. That was basically my entire second paragraph last post. I believe that was your opinion several posts back? You still have not answered this, and I've made it quite clear that was one of the major things I disagreed with you on your assessment of the stages

I don't give a **** if this subject has been discussed for eons before I had my say, that doesn't mean you should just ignore my questions instead of answering me with the knowledge that those 7 years of discussions must have given you and the rest of the boards.

congo and peach castle are 3rd and fourth most viable maps next to Dreamland then Hyrule due to their ledges.

 

[Denjinpachi]

planet Z has walls. and ledges. and arwings.

 

[Uair]

planet Z has walls. and ledges. and arwings.

It's called sector Z, and if you are implying that just because it has walls and ledges means it's viable you're purposely ignoring the reasoning behind it being banned. I'm done continuing this conversation, opinionboarders are still stupid af.

 

[Denjinpachi]

It's called sector Z, and if you are implying that just because it has walls and ledges means it's viable you're purposely ignoring the reasoning behind it being banned. I'm done continuing this conversation, opinionboarders are still stupid af.

You're not done. Lol. You like to be right. and you want us to know you're right. And people are still gonna have an opinion that's not yours, so you'll keep arguing. You'll never be done.

 

[F. Stein]

lol, I see. So this is why I keep stopping myself from joining the smash 64 scene.

 

[Denjinpachi]

lol, I see. So this is why I keep stopping myself from joining the smash 64 scene.

Honestly, I've had no issue with the scene itself. The game is easy to learn and hard to master to put it simply. I play with a lot of norcal's best players, and ive gotten a chance to talk with a lot of really great players via discord, and netplay. It's a decent scene, but its not big. It is mostly consistent due to the die hard nature of its base, but newer players don't really get put through a ringer or anything like that. But, theres always that one dude, or that one facet that can ruin any experience. Don't deprive yourself of a decent chance to make a choice you might actually enjoy. I'd like more stages, but hey, I'd like to get better at the game at the end of the day anyway.

 

[Uair]

People don't know how to argue, if they did I'd gladly break down every scenario for them.