Unbanning Hyrule Castle

[MewtwoForce]

Hey guys. I just want to start this off by saying i'm not sure if my sources on what i'm going to say are correct so if i'm mistaken just let me know. I was watching a major ssb64 tournament and the commentators said one of if not the major reason/s Hyrule Castle was banned was because Superboomfan showed that you could time somebody out on here with this really lame time out strategy.

If that is the case, why not just ban the use of that particular strategy on this stage? Its easy to report it if it happens and I think people would be really cooperative and not use that strategy.

This way we get an entire new stage back into the metagame and we won't stay stuck just playing on one legal stage.

 

[#HBC | ѕoup]

Because it's counter-productive and Dreamland is a much better stage in general. Hyrule being banned was not completely because of boom camping Gerson, but it was a big part of it. Winning a match on hyrule camping someone from across the stage is more tantamount than winning a match on dreamland camping across the stage, because a fox could literally sit down at the **** tent and just shoot lasers without any initiative to approach the other opponent, which is boring and takes too long. That's just one small example but I hope that clears things up for you, and also that NA has been adopting Japanese rules which is Dreamland only pretty much.

 

[Uair]

Filthy casuals who claim competitive play will argue Dreamland is the only viable map for smash64 competitively, but it's the furthest from the truth. Hyrule is one of the maps that takes a bit more skill to play on, People justify hyrule being banned due to camping but you can camp on dreamland too just like boomfan does and did on camera at a japanese tournament he lost badly in. If you can't stop fox from spamming lasers, or DK from camping **** tent gimps then that's on you not being capable enough to play that situation on that map. It is literally a factor of skill on your part and that's all that should matter.

Hyrule, peach castle, congo, dreamland, are all basic maps that should never be banned. I believe maps being banned is a direct result of the lack of high-level competitive scene in the smash64 community.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Filthy casuals who claim competitive play will argue Dreamland is the only viable map for smash64 competitively, but it's the furthest from the truth. Hyrule is one of the maps that takes a bit more skill to play on, People justify hyrule being banned due to camping but you can camp on dreamland too just like boomfan does and did on camera at a japanese tournament he lost badly in. If you can't stop fox from spamming lasers, or DK from camping **** tent gimps then that's on you not being capable enough to play that situation on that map. It is literally a factor of skill on your part and that's all that should matter.

Hyrule, peach castle, congo, dreamland, are all basic maps that should never be banned. I believe maps being banned is a direct result of the lack of high-level competitive scene in the smash64 community.

Do you also advocate for items in competitive smash?

 

[Saltsizzle]

Hey guys. I just want to start this off by saying i'm not sure if my sources on what i'm going to say are correct so if i'm mistaken just let me know. I was watching a major ssb64 tournament and the commentators said one of if not the major reason/s Hyrule Castle was banned was because Superboomfan showed that you could time somebody out on here with this really lame time out strategy.

If that is the case, why not just ban the use of that particular strategy on this stage? Its easy to report it if it happens and I think people would be really cooperative and not use that strategy.

This way we get an entire new stage back into the metagame and we won't stay stuck just playing on one legal stage.

I don't know how you would enforce that at all especially top level players where making them approach would be the same as saying give your opponent a free hit/very likely stock. Forcing one player or another to approach would also be arbitrary which was part of the problem. Boom was ahead in the game so it is usually an unwritten rule/courtesy that the player from behind approaches. Gerson was in his home country so it probably made sense to him that the visiting player be forced to approach. Hyrule is very fun, but at high levels of competitive play, it has no place in my opinion.

 

[Uair]

Do you also advocate for items in competitive smash?

Sure why not? Items are definitely competitive but I can see there being disputes about pokeballs. Isai rules for items were No bottom 3, which are the Star, Mushroom, and Heart. I'm unsure if Hammer/Pokeballs were banned too but I don't think they were.

Doesn't competitive fake smash allow items? Tournaments should include additional 1v1 and 2v2s with items, make smash more interesting.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

I understand the ban on Hyrule, but at the same time things like "only one legal stage" helps the game to be stuck..

 

[caneut]

Sure why not? Items are definitely competitive but I can see there being disputes about pokeballs. Isai rules for items were No bottom 3, which are the Star, Mushroom, and Heart. I'm unsure if Hammer/Pokeballs were banned too but I don't think they were.

Doesn't competitive fake smash allow items? Tournaments should include additional 1v1 and 2v2s with items, make smash more interesting.

smasherx please shut up

 

[Grahamaglam]

Sure why not? Items are definitely competitive but I can see there being disputes about pokeballs. Isai rules for items were No bottom 3, which are the Star, Mushroom, and Heart. I'm unsure if Hammer/Pokeballs were banned too but I don't think they were.

Doesn't competitive fake smash allow items? Tournaments should include additional 1v1 and 2v2s with items, make smash more interesting.

The randomness of the spawn locations and spawn times of items are inherently uncompetitive. Also, hyrule, peaches, and congo are all terrible stages. Dreamland is the best and forget the rest.

 

[Zantetsu]

If that is the case, why not just ban the use of that particular strategy on this stage? Its easy to report it if it happens and I think people would be really cooperative and not use that strategy.

That "particular strategy" is completely subjective. It's impossible to draw a firm line between what should and should not be legal from that match. As a matter of fact, I encourage you to try to define this "strategy" and what should and shouldn't be banned from it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiQp5w-9IAE

You'll see that it's not as black and white as you think. Even if you DID come up with some rules that you believe would have shortened the match, good luck convincing the community that your own personal opinions are the proper way to play the game and to play by your rules. In addition to this, you'll see that enforcing these rules, especially at nationals which are starting to show 200+ people, would be an absolute pain in the neck, and having to find a TO to determine a subjective rule does not have it's place in competitive video games.

One of my favorite things in eSports that I like over athletic sports (which I do enjoy watching) is the lack of a referee being forced to make subjective calls. The game is set and stone. Whoever wins, does so rightfully, and it's not based on an opinionated call by an individual. I want the game to determine who wins, not a person's opinion.

It's just soooooo much easier and convenient to ban Hyrule due to it's camping purposes than it is to make up a bunch of subjective rules in order to make it legal. Plus a lot of people hate the stage anyway.

I understand the ban on Hyrule, but at the same time things like "only one legal stage" helps the game to be stuck..

I personally disagree with this. Practically every other fighting game, besides the other smash games, stick with only one stage (because most don't have a choice, such as traditional fighters, where multiple stages wouldn't make sense). Even Melee only has the same stage 4 times, with minor adjustments to platform height, stage size/location, and boundaries (minus FD which many people despise). I think most people look into stages too much and fail to see how much content and depth this game has, even with only one stage.

I know a lot of people would prefer more stages, and I understand their reasons, but having only 1 legal stage doesn't diminish the quality of the game by as much as people make it sound like it does. I hear more non-ssb64 players complain about dreamland only than the players who actually play the game.

 

[Uair]

The randomness of the spawn locations and spawn times of items are inherently uncompetitive. Also, hyrule, peaches, and congo are all terrible stages. Dreamland is the best and forget the rest.

This isn't chess, this is smash. You aren't fixated on specific positions, You should be able to perform from any position all things considered. P1 vs P2 in Dreamland has bad spawn positions, so you're entire argument is groundless. Unless we are using P2 vs P4 for Dreamland then the spawn locations will be "uncompetitive" (Not a word, just say not...). And if we bring in the ability to change what player uses what controller then other maps spawn points are just fine, especially the larger ones.

 

[Uair]

Tell me right now Grahamaglam are you cuddlytoys?

 

[Deleted member]

don't forget mew2king's kirby :/

 

[ElViejoZunY]

I personally disagree with this. Practically every other fighting game, besides the other smash games, stick with only one stage (because most don't have a choice, such as traditional fighters, where multiple stages wouldn't make sense). Even Melee only has the same stage 4 times, with minor adjustments to platform height, stage size/location, and boundaries (minus FD which many people despise). I think most people look into stages too much and fail to see how much content and depth this game has, even with only one stage.

But you are comparing Smash 64 with regular FG, one of the many things that makes Smash so special is the fact that you aren´t limited to a box with different backgrounds, here you have more than one option to choose.

When you talk about Melee, if you are thinking about Dream Land, Fountain, Battlefield and Yoshi´s as the same stage, you are clearly underestimating then, I saw the on you, tell me if a Jiggly vs Fox in Yoshi´s Story is the same than a Fox vs Jiggly in Dream Land 64

 

[Grahamaglam]

This isn't chess, this is smash. You aren't fixated on specific positions, You should be able to perform from any position all things considered. P1 vs P2 in Dreamland has bad spawn positions, so you're entire argument is groundless. Unless we are using P2 vs P4 for Dreamland then the spawn locations will be "uncompetitive" (Not a word, just say not...). And if we bring in the ability to change what player uses what controller then other maps spawn points are just fine, especially the larger ones.

You misunderstood my message. I was talking about the random spawn positions of the items as well as their random spawn times being uncompetetive.

 

[Uair]

You misunderstood my message. I was talking about the random spawn positions of the items as well as their random spawn times being uncompetetive.

Well that's not even considering the chance that the items will explode on you, Randomness is apart of any complex competitive game, This isn't chess.

And it's not random they spawn is set locations it's just random when they will drop.

 

[Grahamaglam]

I can't think of any good competitive games that have a large random element in them. Could you possibly help me and name a few?

While a stage may have like 5 spots where items spawn, you can't ever be sure exactly where or when they will spawn or even what item it will be, making them unfit for a competitive environment.

 

[Uair]

I can't think of any good competitive games that have a large random element in them. Could you possibly help me and name a few?

While a stage may have like 5 spots where items spawn, you can't ever be sure exactly where or when they will spawn or even what item it will be, making them unfit for a competitive environment.

Wasn't my point at all, My point was human beings are random, are you play different people who play randomly, this isn't a set in stone game, This isn't a speedrun of optimal play, It's smash64 it has mindgames, the opportunities you have which get more limited in whatever situation. The very fact you thought I was alluding to smash64's random functionalities like Dreamland Wind which is exploitable, and Hyrule Nados, really goes to show how bad you are at this game cuddly, I will admit I admire how hard you're trying to be a different person though.

 

[Grahamaglam]

Wasn't my point at all

Then what did you mean by:

Randomness is apart of any complex competitive game

?
You were trying to justify items being in a competitive smash environment (while they obviously shouldn't) and saying randomness isn't an issue by trying to create a false blanket statement saying every competitive game has a form of randomness.

Human mistakes aren't a form of randomness. They're mistakes. Picking wrong options is a mistake, not randomness. Missing a catch in football isn't randomness, it's a mistake. Missed inputs aren't random. Humans don't play randomly either. That would imply they make random inputs, which they don't. They do play differently, however.

Also, reread my posts and show exactly where I mentioned stage hazards at all. We were both talking about items.

 

[Uair]

Human aren't a form of randomness.

Yes they are (To our perspective), Do we need to play smash again?

 

[Uair]

Actually come on kaillera, maybe you'll eventually get good like you were almost getting.

 

[Hentenaar]

No bottom 3, which are the Star, Mushroom, and Heart.

Why do you advocate items but not all items? Bottom 3 are just as much a part of smash as the rest. It's a high risk/high reward option with a random element, and by not choosing it you're being just as incompetitive as all the other DL only "smashers"

 

[Uair]

Why do you advocate items but not all items? Bottom 3 are just as much a part of smash as the rest. It's a high risk/high reward option with a random element, and by not choosing it you're being just as incompetitive as all the other DL only "smashers"

Because the recovery items are recovery items, Back before the time of christ when we were forced to use items we would avoid Stars and specifically not pick up Hearts/Mushrooms. It became an established ruleset on Jimbot's site or whomever it belonged to. You are trying to refute something that took place many years ago, You claim It's not as competitive as sticking to DL? How is it at all correlating to that? Recovery items literally make you invincible or remove all your damage, If you don't understand why we would remove such things then you need to play smash a lot more.

I don't play on StarFox stage because it's too big, Does that mean I'm being "incompetitive" (yet again not a ****ing word)? Starfox stage is just as much a map as any other map.

 

[Hentenaar]

Because the recovery items are recovery items, Back before the time of christ when we were forced to use items we would avoid Stars and specifically not pick up Hearts/Mushrooms. It became an established ruleset on Jimbot's site or whomever it belonged to. You are trying to refute something that took place many years ago, You claim It's not as competitive as sticking to DL? How is it at all correlating to that? Recovery items literally make you invincible or remove all your damage, If you don't understand why we would remove such things then you need to play smash a lot more.

I don't play on StarFox stage because it's too big, Does that mean I'm being "incompetitive" (yet again not a ****ing word)? Starfox stage is just as much a map as any other map.

Uh, losing a stock also literally makes you invincible and takes away all your damage. Are you saying that we should also ban respawns? Have fun with your 1 stock games, smash-hater.

All items were created equal. A smasher with true skill could use a bumper just as effectively as a heart. Keep working at it and maybe you'll figure it out.

 

[Uair]

Uh, losing a stock also literally makes you invincible and takes away all your damage. Are you saying that we should also ban respawns? Have fun with your 1 stock games, smash-hater.

All items were created equal. A smasher with true skill could use a bumper just as effectively as a heart. Keep working at it and maybe you'll figure it out.

You're making an unsound argument, Stock invincibility does not last nearly as long as Starman and it only happens the first second and half after you died, The correlation between that and the invincibility of the Star is not relevant to the matter of banning the bottom 3 items. You're trying to hard to argue, you just sound stupid.

The heart, and mushroom are healing items that reduce your %, Using a bumper skilfully and having a heart/mushroom fall on you while ur camping at 300% is not skill. I'm not going to respond to you ever again if you can't make a sound argument.

I honestly am baffled you actually said that. I don't think I should use this site anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAKG-kbKeIo

 

[caneut]

I honestly am baffled you actually said that. I don't think I should use this site anymore.

please shut up smasherx

 

[asianaussie]

what am i reading and why has the community backpedalled so far

 

[Deleted member]

what am i reading and why has the community backpedalled so far

there is no community. i realized that a long time ago.

 

[Uair]

there is no community. i realized that a long time ago.

 

[Crusader8389]

I can't think of any good competitive games that have a large random element in them. Could you possibly help me and name a few?

Ummmm... just off the top of my head, POKER, hearthstone, magic... There are even lectures on randomness in games that have appeared at certain magic tournaments! Poker in particular has many different styles of play and is extremely competitive, even giving out cash prizes upwards of $1 million.

To give you the basics, a small amount of randomness in a game can provide interesting situations even to people who play the same game over and over, while still not effecting the skill needed to beat a pro by much. So if you add the right amount of randomness to a game, a noob will beat a pro like 1/100000 times but the chance is still there. That is why in card games they will have multiple matches to determine a winner, to eliminate that factor, which is something we already do in most tournaments (not to mention the multiple stocks per match!).

So, if you add randomly spawning stars that is a lot different than allowing congo... obviously if you have stars they could theoretically constantly spawn near one person and effect the game a lot, but if you are on congo and add in randomness in the form of rotating platforms and the barrel, it can slightly effect the game but also adds a lot of different strategies and hypes: think rotating platform combos, where the player must adjust to the rotating platforms and learn to perform combos in different ways than they are usually used to, or barrel hogging meta where you have to potentially decide between barrel hogging and ledge hogging - randomness even allows for more creative thinking, like my personal favorite, barrel canceling (performing a long attack in air but canceling it right after the hitbox by entering the barrel).

Basically what I'm saying is sure you can take away Hyrule, but at least leave SOME other stages than dreamland, so that the game has a SLIGHT amount of randomness to increase the fun of playing the game competitively while still leaving the huge skill gaps. If you are getting owned on mushroom, maybe you need to PRACTICE playing on it more and do some hype bumper combos, instead of just whining about different positioning!! Even if you put on all the items and allowed all stages, it would be nowhere near the amount of randomness that is in poker, and that is a hugely competitive scene, way more than any smash game atm - just sayin.

 

[Tablesalt]

I mean, Hyrule was like the FD of smash 64. So yeah, I think they should legalize the stage but not the move, or at least put a limit on the camping.

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, Hyrule was like the FD of smash 64. So yeah, I think they should legalize the stage but not the move, or at least put a limit on the camping.

how would they limit camping though?

 

[Tablesalt]

how would they limit camping though?

Just set a time limit like 2 minutes total or something like that.

 

[Uair]

Just set a time limit like 2 minutes total or something like that.

Dumb idea because time limits means the person who gets up on kills or gets a stock will camp back to draw the time out to win by default.

 

[Denjinpachi]

I'd like to see maybe 2 new viable stages added to next to dreamland. I've been taking more time to observe old matches on multiple stages, but honestly, if the argument against legalization is camping, then no stage would be legal, because it can happen anywhere whether it'd be likely or not. But the only argument for legalization seems to be progression of either metagame, or interest of matches. While I kind of agree with it, that's mostly an opinionated reason, because dreamland is the closest thing we can have to a "neutral" stage aside from whispy's wind segments. I would agree that I would play on hyrule, but if theres literally only a few stages that would possibly be allowed, then why not make rules like "x" amount of time available instead of just limitless timers? I'd figure that if a person is gonna be dedicated to a camping strategy anyway, then we can at least have a decent cut off timer like melee's 8 minutes, or so. Then, even if the stage is legal, the person who was camped against can have an option of a counter pick, so if you hate hyrule, you can go back to the unlimited time of dreamland like you are used to. I can agree that dreamland only offers consistency for pace In certain match ups, but it will also stale progression of the game. Literally every other smash game offers counter picks because of advantages offered to certain characters on certain stages, and they even have rules on stalling. Why wouldn't the very first game in the series have the same competitive traits as its successors?

TL;DR: Both sides of for and against make decent points, but why not have specific rules for the stages if more than dreamland is offered, since it would seem only two other stages would be offered anyway? Allow more options, with regulation.

 

[Uair]

I'd like to see maybe 2 new viable stages added to next to dreamland. I've been taking more time to observe old matches on multiple stages, but honestly, if the argument against legalization is camping, then no stage would be legal, because it can happen anywhere whether it'd be likely or not. But the only argument for legalization seems to be progression of either metagame, or interest of matches. While I kind of agree with it, that's mostly an opinionated reason, because dreamland is the closest thing we can have to a "neutral" stage aside from whispy's wind segments. I would agree that I would play on hyrule, but if theres literally only a few stages that would possibly be allowed, then why not make rules like "x" amount of time available instead of just limitless timers? I'd figure that if a person is gonna be dedicated to a camping strategy anyway, then we can at least have a decent cut off timer like melee's 8 minutes, or so. Then, even if the stage is legal, the person who was camped against can have an option of a counter pick, so if you hate hyrule, you can go back to the unlimited time of dreamland like you are used to. I can agree that dreamland only offers consistency for pace In certain match ups, but it will also stale progression of the game. Literally every other smash game offers counter picks because of advantages offered to certain characters on certain stages, and they even have rules on stalling. Why wouldn't the very first game in the series have the same competitive traits as its successors?

TL;DR: Both sides of for and against make decent points, but why not have specific rules for the stages if more than dreamland is offered, since it would seem only two other stages would be offered anyway? Allow more options, with regulation.

Hyrule is the next most viable stage next to dreamland. Congo has no ledge walls, Peach castle has no grabbable ledge.

 

[Hentenaar]

Hyrule is the next most viable stage next to dreamland. Congo has no ledge walls, Peach castle has no grabbable ledge.

Hyrule is the next least viable beside sector z due to camping. Not having ledge walls isn't the problem with Congo, it's the platform heights and the ability to camp on the rotating platforms

 

[Uair]

Hyrule is the next least viable beside sector z due to camping. Not having ledge walls isn't the problem with Congo, it's the platform heights and the ability to camp on the rotating platforms

You don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Denjinpachi]

Hyrule is the next least viable beside sector z due to camping. Not having ledge walls isn't the problem with Congo, it's the platform heights and the ability to camp on the rotating platforms

How do you go about camping on Kongo's rotating platforms? you always have to stay on the top in the middle of the stage. that seems like a pretty poor attempt to camp, logically speaking. I don't really see it being all that feasible to camp on em. And sector Z literally has active lasers that are stage hazards worse than whispy's wind, imo.

 

[ElViejoZunY]

Hyrule is the next most viable stage next to dreamland. Congo has no ledge walls, Peach castle has no grabbable ledge.

Is that really a problem? I see that more like a variation than a problem