umm

[smasher?o.0]

can i see some evidence of MK being cheap or sumthin (besides mach tornado)
cuz when i see good MKs
i dont see anything bad about the playstyle...
and if mach tornado i what everyone is pissed about
then find a way to get around it

 

[PyroSpark]

D-smash, laglessness, priority. That is all.

 

[Aeropup]

Lets see...

He's got great matchups, arguably the best of any character, his range and priority are real high, all of his attacks have next to no startup or cooldown lag (excluding fsmash,) he has an insane recovery (5 midair jumps, can glide twice, all specials can be used to recover, and his fast uair/dair can be used effectively to shake off knockback.) Despite how people may discount him, he can recover from almost anywhere, as he has so many options that creative use of them will get him back to the stage somehow . He's cheap too (i.e. matchup dependant, most opponents will have to work harder than meat knight to score a KO.)

He has a high crouch though.

 

[smasher?o.0]

well yeah but they would have to be fairly good in order to be a good MK
because with all vids ive seen
its some pro vs MK
and the pro wins
so its easy to beat him if your good
so is everyone hating him because he is bad for bad people?

 

[8AngeL8]

No. No one uploads vids of Meta-Knight winning because it happens so much. People want him banned because he has no bad matchups, essentially no lag anywhere, a broken recovery, godly edgeguarding, great range and disjointed hitboxes, and a ridiculous amount of options at any point. Seriously, almost any move he has works in most situations.

He has almost 3 times as many tournament victories as second place (Snake), so it's not like we're just bad, there's actual data to show that he's ridiculously dominant.

 

[ZeroFox]

No. No one uploads vids of Meta-Knight winning because it happens so much. People want him banned because he has no bad matchups, essentially no lag anywhere, a broken recovery, godly edgeguarding, great range and disjointed hitboxes, and a ridiculous amount of options at any point. Seriously, almost any move he has works in most situations.

He has almost 3 times as many tournament victories as second place (Snake), so it's not like we're just bad, there's actual data to show that he's ridiculously dominant.

This.

It's not just his Tornado that makes him a broken character. It's pretty much everything else too.

 

[Crizthakidd]

read ullevos thread on exploiting mks weaknesses

 

[ZeroFox]

Or just look at the countless threads where people are asking for matchup help specifically against MK.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Or just look at the countless threads where people are asking for matchup help specifically against MK.

Every single one of those specific people wouldn't win a tournament even with Metaknight banned, so what's your point?

 

[ZeroFox]

Every single one of those specific people wouldn't win a tournament even with Metaknight banned, so what's your point?

My point?

How about "if there are a lot of threads asking for help against MK, it's pretty obvious that MK must be a tough character to play against."

That's my point =P

Or you could look at the threads that basically say "here are MK's weaknesses, here's how to take advantage of them." Basically proves almost the same thing.

 

[Infinitysmash]

My point?

How about "if there are a lot of threads asking for help against MK, it's pretty obvious that MK must be a tough character to play against."

That's my point =P

Or you could look at the threads that basically say "here are MK's weaknesses, here's how to take advantage of them." Basically proves almost the same thing.

Your point is flawed. The player wins this game, not the character. That was MY point, and you've clearly missed it.

 

[DMG]

MK is the best character, he is obviously on a higher level than even people like Snake, but the question is how good does he have to be to ban? No one that I know has set a recognizable/agreed on criteria for him to be banned.

I have heard in a few places that MK has no bad matchups/CP's, but that he shouldn't be banned even though he fits the label as a character with no bad matchups. So IDK, what is the criteria the community has for banning him? What is the criteria for a ban, and does MK meet it? He's not Akuma obviously, but if you change your banning criteria then he might fit it.

Whether you want him banned or not, we got to come to an agreement over how good he has to be for a ban. I think this is something that has been over looked a bit, so let's get some discussion going.

 

[Darxmarth23]

Go search for some videos. Then come to us.

If you can't find any good MKs, come to us. We'll flame you, and then send you out to look for some more.

 

[ZeroFox]

Your point is flawed. The player wins this game, not the character. That was MY point, and you've clearly missed it.

And when did I state that a character wins the game, and not player? I don't recall going either way.

Good job being an elitist.

So according to you, even though there's a common theme of people needing help in terms of how to defeat MK, that doesn't mean jack **** am I right?

 

[Infinitysmash]

And when did I state that a character wins the game, and not player? I don't recall going either way.

By pointing out reasons you believe Metaknight should be banned you implied that the character is so powerful that the person playing him doesn't matter any more, the character will do the winning for them.

Good job being an elitist.

How am I being an elitist? Just because I said that people who asked for help with the character won't win? If that makes me elitist then fine, whatever. Just answer this for me: when is the last time you saw a guy who won a big tournament ask for help?

I play this game for fun. I just happen to be pretty good at it and I love winning. I play as Metaknight because he's fun to play as, not as some sort of mathematical way to win tournaments. The day this game boils down to that for me is the day I stop playing. Call me an elitist now.

Also on a side note before it boils down to this: we're talking about tournament play here. If you go into a tournament odds are you want to win. You're playing to win; to prove how awesome you are. If you enter a tournament, you're there to win and you've entered with full knowledge of the rule set. If you complain about losing afterwards then whose fault is that?

So according to you, even though there's a common theme of people needing help in terms of how to defeat MK, that doesn't mean jack **** am I right?

Wrong. What I meant is that at least half of these posts are people who are just complaining and have no actual will to get better at this game and will never win at a tournament because of that; therefore a majority of these threads cannot be taken into account. What about the countless hours players have put in to beating the character and come to the conclusion "you know, if you play right it's really close but it's not as bad as everyone says it is..." ? Just to reference two I know of: talk to JesiahTEG or MMac about it some time. I know that Jesiah has done plenty of work, and I've heard through a good friend that MMac has done a ton of work as well. Yes, a lot of people open threads about Metaknight asking for help, but the work of all the players trying to find a resolution to this 'problem' should have much more weight in this argument than random people opening threads begging for help rather than finding the answer on their own. That's what my point was; I was not trying to say that "it doesn't mean jack ****," I was trying to say that it means less than what you're saying it does.

 

[ZeroFox]

By pointing out reasons you believe Metaknight should be banned you implied that the character is so powerful that the person playing him doesn't matter any more, the character will do the winning for them.

[...]

Wrong. What I meant is that at least half of these posts are people who are just complaining and have no actual will to get better at this game and will never win at a tournament because of that; therefore a majority of these threads cannot be taken into account.

I never said I thought Meta Knight should be banned. Why don't you read things a little more carefully. I never even mentioned the word "banned." I do believe he's a good character, but he doesn't require a ban. I'm a MK main as well FFS.

And unfortunately for you, you originally stated that every one of the people who ask for MK matchup help wouldn't win a tourney, MK banned or not. Now you change that to "at least half." Good job. Therefore, at least some of the people asking for help are skilled enough and STILL have difficulty taking down a Meta Knight. So what does that say about his character traits?

Take a look at all the threads started by well known Smashers, explaining MK's weaknesses and showing others how to deal with MK. Surely they acknowledge that MK is a good character.

Judging by your responses to my comments ("what's your point, your argument is flawed, you're wrong, etc"), you apparently believe that what you say is correct and has more worth than what I say.

Why don't you get off your high horse so we can discuss this topic like grown men.

 

[Infinitysmash]

Fail. I never said I thought Meta Knight should be banned. Why don't you read things a little more carefully. I never even mentioned the word "banned." I do believe he's a good character, but he doesn't require a ban. I'm a MK main as well FFS.

I'll quote you then:

It's not just his Tornado that makes him a broken character. It's pretty much everything else too.

Or just look at the countless threads where people are asking for matchup help specifically against MK.

It's easy to understand where someone would get the impression that you would want him banned. This is what I based that off of.

And unfortunately for you, you originally stated that every one of the people who ask for MK matchup help wouldn't win a tourney, MK banned or not. Now you change that to "at least half." Good job.

Because the number I point out is more relevant than my actual message is. </sarcasm>

Take a look at all the threads started by well known Smashers, explaining MK's weaknesses and showing others how to deal with MK. Surely they acknowledge that MK is a good character.

Obv, otherwise they wouldn't be making those threads or putting in all of their work would they? Metaknight is factually the best character in the game as of right now, no one is arguing that point at all dude.

Why don't you get off your high horse so we can discuss this topic like grown men.

Uhhh, I thought we were. I'm never on a high horse to begin with dude, you're just taking this as a personal attack instead of a logical discussion. I have nothing against you whatsoever and I definitely don't think down on you or anyone else, even if it comes across as if I do.

 

[ZeroFox]

Obv, otherwise they wouldn't be making those threads or putting in all of their work would they? Metaknight is factually the best character in the game as of right now, no one is arguing that point at all dude.



Uhhh, I thought we were. I'm never on a high horse to begin with dude, you're just taking this as a personal attack instead of a logical discussion. I have nothing against you whatsoever and I definitely don't think down on you or anyone else, even if it comes across as if I do.

1) I was under the impression that you WERE arguing against the point that MK is the "best" character in the game. Your comment about how the people asking for MK help are generally unskilled would lead one to believe that there's no actual basis that MK is a good character, and that any skilled player would be able to defeat an MK with relative ease.

2) It certainly does come across that way.

Either way, all I was trying to say is that MK is pretty much better than other characters. He has a great recovery, little to no lag, and great edgeguarding capabilities among other things. He has no unfavorable matchups last time I checked. The fact that so many people are asking on MK help, and the fact that there are many threads (anti tornado, MK weaknesses, how to take on an MK, etc etc) merely proves that MK is a good enough character to force people in expending the extra time and effort in figuring out the matchups and weaknesses.

I would say he's somewhat broken, although I'd never agree to him being banned. Why would I want to ban my own main? That was the gist of my argument. If you believed in the same things I did, I don't see why you argued as if you didn't. At least that's the impression I'm getting.

 

[Gates]

I just figured if there were flames going on I should make the best of 'em.

...what?

 

[ZeroFox]

I just figured if there were flames going on I should make the best of 'em.

...what?

Lol, this post is awesome.

@ Infinity-

Yeah I admittedly do take things a bit more personally I guess. Even so, I'm still confused why we were arguing yet apparently believed in the same things lol.

 

[_Phloat_]

Lets see...

He's got great matchups, arguably the best of any character, his range and priority are real high, all of his attacks have next to no startup or cooldown lag (excluding fsmash,) he has an insane recovery (5 midair jumps, can glide twice, all specials can be used to recover, and his fast uair/dair can be used effectively to shake off knockback.) Despite how people may discount him, he can recover from almost anywhere, as he has so many options that creative use of them will get him back to the stage somehow . He's cheap too (i.e. matchup dependant, most opponents will have to work harder than meat knight to score a KO.)

He has a high crouch though.

Haha.

Spoiler

10meatknights.

 

[Gates]

Haha.

Spoiler

10meatknights.

lol I didn't catch that at first. Goes well with my last post tho lol.

 

[Kinzer]

You're stealing our jokes!

We'll forgive you though, since apparently this is a sign that the virus has already begun to spread outside the Shawnik boards.

 

[Rh1thmz]

I just figured if there were flames going on I should make the best of 'em.

...what?

This post made this thread 10 times better.

Spoiler

...Meatknight for steak tier?

 

[ZeroFox]

This post made this thread 10 times better.

Spoiler

...Meatknight for steak tier?

lol meat knight, didn't catch that either. XD