Ultimate's knock-back physics, will they be a problem?

[TheMisterManGuy]

One major change to Super Smash Bros. Ultimate's gameplay was the reworked knock-back physics. Characters now have a faster tempo to their launch with strong attacks in an effort to make the game faster paced. But some pro players said this could be a problem for combos and follow ups. The seemingly increased knock-back speed gives the impression that hits are harder to land or follow up on. Yet, I see videos like this, along with ZeRo vs. MKLeo at the Invitational that show that combos are about on par with Smash 4, if a bit more varied. Could this be an actual issue, or is it just something the meta will simply get used to? I like the change in theory. But I'm hoping that the knock-back on several moves for several characters is adjusted and tweaked in the final game to compensate, which will allow for easier follow ups, that or shorten the hitstun cancel window by about 5 frames.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

I may be wrong but i'm pretty sure i heard that those changes do not apply in 1v1. From what i've seen so far, the game is much faster in 4 players smash and knockback mechanics seems to be altered too. Still i'm not a 100% sure i'll try to find confirmation and edit my post later if i do find it.

In any case, it will surely affect combos and raise the KO potential for certain moves.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

I may be wrong but i'm pretty sure i heard that those changes do not apply in 1v1. From what i've seen so far, the game is much faster in 4 players smash and knockback mechanics seems to be altered too. Still i'm not a 100% sure i'll try to find confirmation and edit my post later if i do find it.

In any case, it will surely affect combos and raise the KO potential for certain moves.

Knockback is the same in all modes. What does change however, is the damage increase in 1v1 matches, along with some extra visual touches. I think the new knockback is going to shift the Ultimate meta to favor more close range, low-knockback combos than even Smash 4, as well as like you said, give certain characters really good kill moves.

 

[Blade of Evil's Bane]

Knockback is the same in all modes. What does change however, is the damage increase in 1v1 matches, along with some extra visual touches. I think the new knockback is going to shift the Ultimate meta to favor more close range, low-knockback combos than even Smash 4, as well as like you said, give certain characters really good kill moves.

Nice, I wasn't sure about the knockback. The combos will surely have to change, players will adapt and find new ones for sure.
Things like up-tilt juggling and such could become less efficient to rack up % * (if i get your point correctly).

I'm pretty happy about it. A bunch of characters in Sm4sh that where low tier/non-viable from their lack of knockback will possibly become viable. In my opinion, it'll mainly benefit speedy character like Sheik and Sonic (who where already good in Sm4sh).

* Edit: Although if the damage output (in 1v1) and the knockback is increased, long combos won't be as necessary as before to rack up %.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Faster jumpsquats and landing lag makes air to ground to air again transitions far faster than in the last game. I dunno if these changes were made as a result of balloon knockback or if balloon knockback was made deliberately in tandem with these changes. Because if we had the old knockback with this new game speed, you would just be helpless every time something popped you in the air. I think a lot of kill combos from the last game won't work in Ultimate. However, these changes will result in stronger combo games in general for the roster at low and mid percents. When the opponent is at high percent, the lack of kill confirms is going to place the onus on risky moves or getting the opponent off the stage for an edgeguard. And that's definitely more engaging than the usual ladder combos or Dthrow > Uair.

One net positive of the game's new knockback are the low launch angles. I don't think the launch angles on moves have been individually adjusted, I just think the generic "sakurai angle" is what's lower, as that appears on most horizontally launching moves. Whether the victim is at high or low damage, it's just not the old 45-50 degree angle and instead often leaves the victim only a little higher than their original altitude when they've finished suffering knockback. This is neat since these moves will launch the victim more directly to the blast zone. In Smash 4, vertical kill moves reigned supreme since you could use them anywhere on stage and they weren't as susceptible to that game's version of DI. But if horizontal kill moves can lead to edgeguard opportunities then that should make them more relevant. It should also matter more whether or not your character's recovery is good or great. In Smash 4 you could pretty much drift back to the ledge after being launched as long as nobody tried to stop you. But now that you launch opponents low, recoveries and edgueguarding should come up a lot more often when discussing a character's strengths and weaknesses.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

There is some misconception going around that Sakurai said that Balloon knockback is to prevent combos from happening. That's not true. In a previous interview, what Sakurai was mainly talking about, was when a player is getting launched at high percents, there's still one or two frames left after they reach their apex before they can act out again. He's saying that he want's to reduce the time it takes for the player to reach the apex of a large launch, and act out of hitstun afterwards by about 1 or 2 frames.

"By slightly reducing the time the fighter can’t be controlled, we are aiming for a well-paced gameplay experience," Sakurai said. "We are aiming to make improvements here and there, like reconsidering buttons, allowing short hop attacks by pressing buttons simultaneously, etc. to make the controls easier, but at the same time keep a good tempo."

It has nothing to do with preventing combos or being anti-competitive. It's about keeping the game well paced so that everyone is constantly fighting at nearly all times.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I really hope there are some ways to customize knockback to make it more like melee. And also I hope gravity can be increased while also being able to increase jump height. There were some issues with increasing gravity and the jump height of characters in smash4.

Ideally, I hope Sakurai goes buck and just adds a melee mode.

 

[osby]

I really hope there are some ways to customize knockback to make it more like melee. And also I hope gravity can be increased while also being able to increase jump height. There were some issues with increasing gravity and the jump height of characters in smash4.

Ideally, I hope Sakurai goes buck and just adds a melee mode.

I hope people goes buck and just play Melee.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

I hope people goes buck and just play Melee.

Melee doesn't have enough characters or stages. I want Moar. Actually I prefer project m tbh, but still

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

I really hope there are some ways to customize knockback to make it more like melee. And also I hope gravity can be increased while also being able to increase jump height. There were some issues with increasing gravity and the jump height of characters in smash4.

Ideally, I hope Sakurai goes buck and just adds a melee mode.

Melee 2's not happening. Ever. Sakurai has said he's not interested in revisiting that type of game. We should be letting Ultimate be its own thing, not a Melee 2.0.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Melee 2's not happening. Ever. Sakurai has said he's not interested in revisiting that type of game. We should be letting Ultimate be its own thing, not a Melee 2.0.

Sakurai says a lot of things that he changes his mind about. And it looks like he's trying to make the game more fast paced as it is. Anddd this is smash ultimate which seems to mean that he's bringing together the best parts of all smash games. So giving us different playstyles could be possible. Smash 4 had so much customization, it was almost possible to make the game feel like melee already. Really the main things he'd need to put together for a "melee mode" would be higher gravity, higher vertical jumps to account for the gravity, and higher knockback that doesn't slow down suddenly like it does in the base game currently.

And what I'm suggesting doesn't make it melee 2.0, what it does is give players the option to play in different ways. Again it's smash ULTIMATE. It should have everything ever in it.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

Sakurai says a lot of things that he changes his mind about. And it looks like he's trying to make the game more fast paced as it is. Anddd this is smash ultimate which seems to mean that he's bringing together the best parts of all smash games. So giving us different playstyles could be possible. Smash 4 had so much customization, it was almost possible to make the game feel like melee already. Really the main things he'd need to put together for a "melee mode" would be higher gravity, higher vertical jumps to account for the gravity, and higher knockback that doesn't slow down suddenly like it does in the base game currently.

And what I'm suggesting doesn't make it melee 2.0, what it does is give players the option to play in different ways. Again it's smash ULTIMATE. It should have everything ever in it.

But the game doesn't need a Melee mode, as it's fine competitively as is, just like Smash 4. It's important to understand that not every Smash Bros. game needs to be like Melee to be good as a competitive title. Smash 4 wasn't like Melee, yet it survived fine in the tournament scene (at least, until this year's Bayonetta witching hour at Evo that is). Ultimate will be the same. Sakurai has gone on record to admit he considered Melee to be too technical and complex for newcomers, which runs counter to the original design intend of Smash Bros. Notice how in Ultimate, he's trying to make more advanced techniques like Shorthop aerials and dash canceling much simpler to execute. The goal is to make these techniques as easy to learn and preform as possible, shifting the focus away from memorization and execution to pure strategy.

 

[Iridium]

https://mobile.twitter.com/Ruben_dal/status/1027782352142061568

This Twitter thread should explain something for this topic.

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

But the game doesn't need a Melee mode, as it's fine competitively as is, just like Smash 4. It's important to understand that not every Smash Bros. game needs to be like Melee to be good as a competitive title. Smash 4 wasn't like Melee, yet it survived fine in the tournament scene (at least, until this year's Bayonetta witching hour at Evo that is). Ultimate will be the same. Sakurai has gone on record to admit he considered Melee to be too technical and complex for newcomers, which runs counter to the original design intend of Smash Bros. Notice how in Ultimate, he's trying to make more advanced techniques like Shorthop aerials and dash canceling much simpler to execute. The goal is to make these techniques as easy to learn and preform as possible, shifting the focus away from memorization and execution to pure strategy.

Please man. Smash 4 is absolutely not competitive and I don't think this game is gona be competitive enough either. And by competitive I mean fast paced gameplay btw. Play project m, and then play smash 4. It makes me Wana fall asleep. It's not fun at all at its current state. Melee mode would be epic af.

And I really don't buy the whole newcomers argument because if I'm a newcomer I'm playing with friends who are also newcomers, now with pros. Melee followed the rule that all great games follow "easy to pick up, difficult to master". Are you telling me pressing a direction and a button is to hard to learn?

If Sakurai is making harder techniques more accessible, I'm all for that, but my biggest gripe is the slow paced gameplay. I want To be able to execute quick combos and feel in control of my player, I hate floating around and feeling like I have no control of anything.

Edit: also, honestly the new kb physics are really awkward looking. I hope they play well in game, but I also home that they're adjustible. It's so odd to have an attack look so strong and then the enemy doesn't die. It makes no sense

 

[Flowen231]

Please man. Smash 4 is absolutely not competitive and I don't think this game is gona be competitive enough either. And by competitive I mean fast paced gameplay btw. Play project m, and then play smash 4. It makes me Wana fall asleep. It's not fun at all at its current state. Melee mode would be epic af.

And I really don't buy the whole newcomers argument because if I'm a newcomer I'm playing with friends who are also newcomers, now with pros. Melee followed the rule that all great games follow "easy to pick up, difficult to master". Are you telling me pressing a direction and a button is to hard to learn?

If Sakurai is making harder techniques more accessible, I'm all for that, but my biggest gripe is the slow paced gameplay. I want To be able to execute quick combos and feel in control of my player, I hate floating around and feeling like I have no control of anything.

Changing the meaning of a word does not make your statement true sir ;p. Smash 4 was competitive because people really liked it, there was a demand to play it, and players wanted to get better which results in natural competition, just like melee. And just like melee there was a very clear gap in skill between low, mid, high, and top level play. Pacing has nothing to do with the competitive viability of a game.

I know it's very hard to believe atm, I've been playing since 64, I went through melee wavedashing just like everyone else, and I actually played melee til the end of brawl because after a while brawl got really stale for me. For people like us who went through it at the time it's no big deal, but you're vastly underestimating the amount of people who are capable of playing at that level. I don't fancy myself as someone who stands above others, but we're all different, some people are better at some things, and some people can't wavedash to save their lives.

Not every game is for everyone. I liked smash 4's and ultimate's pacing very much, enough to the point where smash 4 snapped me out of my melee rut. There's really nothing complicated about it, if you don't like the pacing it's probably not the game for you. But we still got melee going strong at least right?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Changing the meaning of a word does not make your statement true sir ;p. Smash 4 was competitive because people really liked it, there was a demand to play it, and players wanted to get better which results in natural competition, just like melee. And just like melee there was a very clear gap in skill between low, mid, high, and top level play. Pacing has nothing to do with the competitive viability of a game.

I know it's very hard to believe atm, I've been playing since 64, I went through melee wavedashing just like everyone else, and I actually played melee til the end of brawl because after a while brawl got really stale for me. For people like us who went through it at the time it's no big deal, but you're vastly underestimating the amount of people who are capable of playing at that level. I don't fancy myself as someone who stands above others, but we're all different, some people are better at some things, and some people can't wavedash to save their lives.

Not every game is for everyone. I liked smash 4's and ultimate's pacing very much, enough to the point where smash 4 snapped me out of my melee rut. There's really nothing complicated about it, if you don't like the pacing it's probably not the game for you. But we still got melee going strong at least right?

Let me just make something really clear. I don't like melee for wavedashing. I actually hate playing against ppl who wavedash. In fact, I'm no good at it. I also prefer project m to melee, and still don't like wavedashing in that. I like the games because lacing combos together is very easy. Attacks flow very well. I can start attacking someone and then follow up with at least 3-4 more hits with ease. And I like the games because there's a good countering meta simply with shielding and dodging. It's so much fun and the gameplay is so fast.

When I jump into vBrawl or smash4, I literally fall asleep. My eyes get droopy and they're just not fun. And people that suck at the game can actually give me a run for my money occasionally. I'm not trying to be a snob at all. That's just how I feelwhen I'm not playing projectm.

What im looking for is a new smash that is fast paced with all the characters of ultimate, so when people say "well just play melee" or "at least we have melee" that absolutely does not cut it. I suppose as you implied, competitive isn't the word I'm looking for at all, I just want a faster game.

Bottom line though is - adding a "melee" mode to special brawl does not hurt anyone in any way. It's an additional mode for people who want to play that way, and it should be relatively easy to implement. Then you can get competitive ppl who like slower gameplay, and competitive ppl who like it faster. And btw in that toggle, Sakurai could go balls out and add "64 mode, melee mode, brawl mode and smash4 mode". That would truly make the game "Ultimate".

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

Please man. Smash 4 is absolutely not competitive and I don't think this game is gona be competitive enough either. And by competitive I mean fast paced gameplay btw. Play project m, and then play smash 4. It makes me Wana fall asleep. It's not fun at all at its current state. Melee mode would be epic af.

A game doesn't need to be fast paced to be fun to play or watch. Smash 4 was a slower paced, more neutral focused game than Melee, yet it's still able to be exciting to watch because it has mechanics and gameplay that make it so. Which one you prefer is another story, but the pacing of the game shouldn't dictate its competitive viability. Chess is an inherently slow-paced game, yet it's competitive.

And I really don't buy the whole newcomers argument because if I'm a newcomer I'm playing with friends who are also newcomers, now with pros. Melee followed the rule that all great games follow "easy to pick up, difficult to master". Are you telling me pressing a direction and a button is to hard to learn?

What Sakurai is saying is that Melee wasn't hard to play, rather it was hard to learn. Sure, any fighting game newbie can pick up Melee and learn the bare basics, while having fun. But if that player wants to get good, well then there's a huge barrier of arbitrary button inputs, techniques and speed that makes it too hard to get even remotely competent at. Melee had too high of a skill floor in Sakurai's eyes, and that's what he wants to avoid with subsequent entries. Ultimate continues the philosophy of streamlining technique execution without sacrificing depth. The game needs to be as easy as possible to start getting good at. Advanced tech should be as painless and intuitive to input as possible, and the focus should be on strategy and skill, not made up arbitrary techniques with needlessly complex button inputs, which runs counter to what Smash was originally intended to be.

If Sakurai is making harder techniques more accessible, I'm all for that, but my biggest gripe is the slow paced gameplay. I want To be able to execute quick combos and feel in control of my player, I hate floating around and feeling like I have no control of anything.

Well then that's you, and Smash 4 and Ultimate do have combos. It just comes down to what you prefer, rather than Smash 4 not being a good competitive title.

Bottom line though is - adding a "melee" mode to special brawl does not hurt anyone in any way. It's an additional mode for people who want to play that way, and it should be relatively easy to implement. Then you can get competitive ppl who like slower gameplay, and competitive ppl who like it faster. And btw in that toggle, Sakurai could go balls out and add "64 mode, melee mode, brawl mode and smash4 mode". That would truly make the game "Ultimate".

It's better to craft a cohesive mechanical experience that many people can enjoy, than trying to be too many things at once. That's why Ultimate should be developing its own meta. A good fighting game thrives on having their own distinct flavor that people can enjoy. People enjoy Melee for its combo-focused, fast gameplay. People enjoy Smash 4 for its tension building neutral and more methodical, but still rewarding gameplay. If every game in the genre played exactly like Guilty Gear or played exactly like Street Fighter, tournaments like EVO wouldn't be as big as they are.

I can start attacking someone and then follow up with at least 3-4 more hits with ease. And I like the games because there's a good countering meta simply with shielding and dodging. It's so much fun and the gameplay is so fast.

Well you can do the same with Smash 4, abiet slower and a bit less versatile.

 

[Flowen231]

Let me just make something really clear. I don't like melee for wavedashing. I actually hate playing against ppl who wavedash. In fact, I'm no good at it. I also prefer project m to melee, and still don't like wavedashing in that. I like the games because lacing combos together is very easy. Attacks flow very well. I can start attacking someone and then follow up with at least 3-4 more hits with ease. And I like the games because there's a good countering meta simply with shielding and dodging. It's so much fun and the gameplay is so fast.

When I jump into vBrawl or smash4, I literally fall asleep. My eyes get droopy and they're just not fun. And people that suck at the game can actually give me a run for my money occasionally. I'm not trying to be a snob at all. That's just how I feelwhen I'm not playing projectm.

What im looking for is a new smash that is fast paced with all the characters of ultimate, so when people say "well just play melee" or "at least we have melee" that absolutely does not cut it. I suppose as you implied, competitive isn't the word I'm looking for at all, I just want a faster game.

Bottom line though is - adding a "melee" mode to special brawl does not hurt anyone in any way. It's an additional mode for people who want to play that way, and it should be relatively easy to implement. Then you can get competitive ppl who like slower gameplay, and competitive ppl who like it faster. And btw in that toggle, Sakurai could go balls out and add "64 mode, melee mode, brawl mode and smash4 mode". That would truly make the game "Ultimate".

I agree with you somewhat tbh. At least as far as melee mode not hurting anyone and that melee isn't enough.

The problem with melee mode is the time and resources it takes to make that kind of thing happen. It's not really practical enough to put it in a game of this scale. While I myself wouldn't mind seeing or playing it occasionally, I just don't see something that big happening.

And yeah, 100%, melee isn't enough lol. I mean, I threw up deuces back when smash 4 launched, I can only imagine what people who stuck with it feel like. And I certainly understand the want for a new melee-like game. But that's just not the direction that nintendo want to go in. And it's because stringing things together and having more movement control is too hard to keep the interest of the average smasher these days despite being very appealing on paper.

But I mean what can I say :/? If anything I hope that melee HD drops and gives you some new modes and at least 30 new characters ;p.

 

[Vhozek]

Why are the Smash4 players being so god-damn annoying? The man said he wanted a few things to be more like Melee and the whole ****ing thread turned about ****ting on each other. Ultimate has directional air dodging so why dont' you go **** on Sakurai too? You can basically wavedash now (even though it's worse) and waveland too (also worse) so why don't you go cry to Sakurai? Characters even have the same exact frame data as in Melee so why don't you complain to Sakurai to stop getting closer to Melee? There's nothing wrong with someone wanting more stuff from Melee. I also hate it when Smash4 players say "Melee players need to move on" but you're about to get a 3rd version of the same game (Brawl) so maybe someone else needs to move on. Let us speak out for what we want to see just like you do too.

With that being said, I'd like to see weaker shields like in Melee, more movement options like in Melee, and feel the same excitement when playing and when watching just like with Melee.

 

[MattOnwheels]

I believe if you pause in the direct as he goes through the options, you can see a knockback speed slider! There ya go =p

Why are the Smash4 players being so god-damn annoying? The man said he wanted a few things to be more like Melee and the whole ****ing thread turned about ****ting on each other. Ultimate has directional air dodging so why dont' you go **** on Sakurai too? You can basically wavedash now (even though it's worse) and waveland too (also worse) so why don't you go cry to Sakurai? Characters even have the same exact frame data as in Melee so why don't you complain to Sakurai to stop getting closer to Melee? There's nothing wrong with someone wanting more stuff from Melee. I also hate it when Smash4 players say "Melee players need to move on" but you're about to get a 3rd version of the same game (Brawl) so maybe someone else needs to move on. Let us speak out for what we want to see just like you do too.

With that being said, I'd like to see weaker shields like in Melee, more movement options like in Melee, and feel the same excitement when playing and when watching just like with Melee.

Bruh, dont act like melee players dont do the same thing. In fact this all started because a melee player derailed discussion wanting sakurai to "Make moar melee". I love melee, but the ****ery over it DOES exist.

 

[Necro'lic]

Vhozek I feel the reason he got so much backlash from his comment is that it looked like his comment boiled down to "make Ultimate just like Melee by giving it 'Melee Mode'" whatever that means.

There are some things good in Melee that can return, some things that I'd prefer not to, some things I would argue shouldn't, and some that are sort of neutral, and some things that can be tweaked but still end up in the spirit of Melee overall.

For example, you say you want more movement options. I say definitely. However, if you said "I want movement options added exactly how they are in Melee", I would be quite hesitant. That's the disconnect here.

It's also why you mentioning Sakurai changing Ultimate to be faster paced like Melee isn't highlighting anything hypocritical. It's all about context.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

The man said he wanted a few things to be more like Melee and the whole ****ing thread turned about ****ting on each other.

Nothing wrong with preferring Melee or wanting a few mechanics to work more like they did in Melee. The problem is when people assume that any Smash Bros. game that doesn't play like a carbon copy of Melee isn't competitively viable at all, which is what I was arguing. I did wish that some mechanics in Smash 4 worked like they did in Melee such as restricting air dodges, which Ultimate looks to address. We're not asking Melee players to stop playing Melee, we're simply asking them to let Smash 4 and Ultimate be their own thing.

I believe if you pause in the direct as he goes through the options, you can see a knockback speed slider! There ya go =p

That's the same for Smash 4. It doesn't change the physics, it just adjusts the knock-back on attacks. The higher the multiplier, the more launch power each attack has. Balloon Knock-back is something hardwired into the game engine and thus can't be changed.

 

[Vhozek]

Nothing wrong with preferring Melee or wanting a few mechanics to work more like they did in Melee. The problem is when people assume that any Smash Bros. game that doesn't play like a carbon copy of Melee isn't competitively viable at all, which is what I was arguing. I did wish that some mechanics in Smash 4 worked like they did in Melee such as restricting air dodges, which Ultimate looks to address. We're not asking Melee players to stop playing Melee, we're simply asking them to let Smash 4 and Ultimate be their own thing.

The thing is that people don't just want it to be competitively viable but surpass that or meet how viable Melee is. It's not difficult to know when a game won't be up to that same level or higher just by looking at what's in it from experience. I'd love if Ultimate was just as viable as Melee or even more so, but honestly it's just telling me it's another Smash4 with slightly faster gameplay. The only thing that gives me hope is the directional air dodge and the parry system, but something tells me that parry system will be a controversial topic at one point within the first year of the game.

 

[MattOnwheels]

The thing is that people don't just want it to be competitively viable but surpass that or meet how viable Melee is. It's not difficult to know when a game won't be up to that same level or higher just by looking at what's in it from experience. I'd love if Ultimate was just as viable as Melee or even more so, but honestly it's just telling me it's another Smash4 with slightly faster gameplay. The only thing that gives me hope is the directional air dodge and the parry system, but something tells me that parry system will be a controversial topic at one point within the first year of the game.

It doesnt have to be at Melee standard to be perfectly competitive, and Melee may not be as fun to some as to others anyway.

This constant over-praise of it is turning me, someone who grew up on it, away from wanting to touch it again. Think about that.

 

[Vhozek]

It doesnt have to be at Melrr's standard to be perfectly competitive, and Melee may not be as fun to some as to others anyway.

Not saying it has to be. Look at Slap City, it feels like Brawl but plays like Melee. I love that game and feels like a true balance between the casual and competitive sides of the game. Also, who doesn't want to do cool stuff on platforms? I want to see one person tell me right now that they don't want the ability to fake-out people with their movement and put on a show for the crowd at the same time.

 

[MattOnwheels]

Not saying it has to be. Look at Slap City, it feels like Brawl but plays like Melee. I love that game and feels like a true balance between the casual and competitive sides of the game. Also, who doesn't want to do cool stuff on platforms? I want to see one person tell me right now that they don't want the ability to fake-out people with their movement and put on a show for the crowd at the same time.

....I...don't think you got my point.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

The thing is that people don't just want it to be competitively viable but surpass that or meet how viable Melee is. It's not difficult to know when a game won't be up to that same level or higher just by looking at what's in it from experience. I'd love if Ultimate was just as viable as Melee or even more so, but honestly it's just telling me it's another Smash4 with slightly faster gameplay. The only thing that gives me hope is the directional air dodge and the parry system, but something tells me that parry system will be a controversial topic at one point within the first year of the game.

That's the problem, while I understand there's a market for a game like Melee, it's also important to accept that every fighting game, especially those in the same series should have its own unique flavor. As I mentioned, it'd be pretty boring if every fighting game played like Guilty Gear, or every fighting game played like Tekken. Or every Street Fighter played like Alpha 3. Variety is good, especially for tournaments, because different players like different things, these developers like making different things. Sakurai's not into making another Melee and that's fine. It's not because he's anti-competitive, but because it's just not the style of game he likes making. Ultimate implements a lot of stuff that was based entirely on the input of the competitive scene, as was Smash 4, so he understands the importance of competitive Smash.

 

[Necro'lic]

Not saying it has to be. Look at Slap City, it feels like Brawl but plays like Melee. I love that game and feels like a true balance between the casual and competitive sides of the game. Also, who doesn't want to do cool stuff on platforms? I want to see one person tell me right now that they don't want the ability to fake-out people with their movement and put on a show for the crowd at the same time.

Well it depends on how it's implemented. What cool stuff do you mean exactly? You mean wavelanding into a platform drop? Because I'm a huge critic of Melee's design and I think that should be a thing honestly. But not because it looks cool, though that helps, but because it gives the player options to work with and is balanced with itself because being in the air gives less options than being on the ground, so you have a reason NOT to waveland off the ledge.

Where a usually diehard Melee fanboy (not you) would disagree with me is how it should be implemented. I think the new stale dodging mechanic should work into the waveland as well as ledge cancels, making it weaker somehow without simply removing the option. I also would like ledge cancels to be MUCH easier to perform and actually have them be known by the casual player in a tutorial or something.

 

[Vhozek]

That's the problem, while I understand there's a market for a game like Melee, it's also important to accept that every fighting game, especially those in the same series should have its own unique flavor. As I mentioned, it'd be pretty boring if every fighting game played like Guilty Gear, or every fighting game played like Tekken. Or every Street Fighter played like Alpha 3. Variety is good, especially for tournaments, because different players like different things, these developers like making different things. Sakurai's not into making another Melee and that's fine. It's not because he's anti-competitive, but because it's just not the style of game he likes making. Ultimate implements a lot of stuff that was based entirely on the input of the competitive scene, as was Smash 4, so he understands the importance of competitive Smash.

Ultimate could have its own unique flavor by ONLY having more characters and game modes while playing exactly like Melee and it would still be more successful than Melee both in sales and in the competitive scene. History thus far has stated that Melee is still preferred even during Smash4's peak. The thing is that Melee players don't even want Ultimate to play exactly like Melee and I honestly think wavedash does enough. You could make a case for knockback and fall speeds just cause it increases combo potential and pace of the game, but even then just wavedash alone adds a whole new dimension to footsies.

 

[Vhozek]

Well it depends on how it's implemented. What cool stuff do you mean exactly? You mean wavelanding into a platform drop? Because I'm a huge critic of Melee's design and I think that should be a thing honestly. But not because it looks cool, though that helps, but because it gives the player options to work with and is balanced with itself because being in the air gives less options than being on the ground, so you have a reason NOT to waveland off the ledge.

Where a usually diehard Melee fanboy (not you) would disagree with me is how it should be implemented. I think the new stale dodging mechanic should work into the waveland as well as ledge cancels, making it weaker somehow without simply removing the option. I also would like ledge cancels to be MUCH easier to perform and actually have them be known by the casual player in a tutorial or something.

I would like it if we could both wavedash and waveland exactly like in Melee (10 frames of lag and available on frame 1 of being airborne) with added input buffer (similar to jump+A being added in Ultimate) just to make wavedashing incredibly simple to execute. Sliding off platforms is something I want because it adds options when combined with wavelanding on top of it adding to the watching experience. Yes, I do think the stale dodging mechanic should also be added to this just to keep casuals happy and not make them think they HAVE to wavedash all the time although the viewing experience probably wouldn't be as great (still good though). Getting casuals to learn tech is to basically tell them to stop being casuals, so I doubt there's any need for tutorials on some of the hardcore tech like wavedashing and ledge cancels. They wouldn't know what to do with them and they would probably not care to use them.
Oh and I'd also love to have dash dancing back exactly as it is in Melee. I wanna go further and say exactly as it is in Slap City.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

Ultimate could have its own unique flavor by ONLY having more characters and game modes while playing exactly like Melee and it would still be more successful than Melee both in sales and in the competitive scene.

But that's not how it works. Even with more characters, it'd still just be Melee in HD. While that would appease the Melee fans, it's not something everyone likes, and again, it's not the type of game Sakurai wants to make. Plus, Melee doesn't have Ultimate's unique mechanics, like dash-canceling, meter Final Smashes, instant short-hop aerials, dodge staling, and yes, Balloon knockback. Ultimate is its own beast and that's for the better IMO.

History thus far has stated that Melee is still preferred even during Smash4's peak. The thing is that Melee players don't even want Ultimate to play exactly like Melee and I honestly think wavedash does enough.

Even if it's preferred, that doesn't mean Smash 4 isn't liked or doesn't have an audience. Which is my whole point. Fighting games should do different things for different players. People who want a lightning quick, combo focused game will play Melee. People who want a more methodical, neutral focused game will play Smash 4. People who want a mix will play Ultimate.

 

[Vhozek]

Even if it's preferred, that doesn't mean Smash 4 isn't liked or doesn't have an audience. Which is my whole point. Fighting games should do different things for different players. People who want a lightning quick, combo focused game will play Melee. People who want a more methodical, neutral focused game will play Smash 4. People who want a mix will play Ultimate.

I get what you mean, but the thing is that Ultimate, as it is, with a good wavedash and a good dash dance added would still be its own thing. If you really want to go into this topic I can start to point out the similarities between Brawl and Smash4 and tell you how Melee players feel about how bs it is that you get the same game with an added twist to it. Melee players are proposing things that would make Ultimate basically that too, except we would suffice with just a good wavedash and dashdance.

 

[TheMisterManGuy]

I get what you mean, but the thing is that Ultimate, as it is, with a good wavedash and a good dash dance added would still be its own thing. If you really want to go into this topic I can start to point out the similarities between Brawl and Smash4 and tell you how Melee players feel about how bs it is that you get the same game with an added twist to it. Melee players are proposing things that would make Ultimate basically that too, except we would suffice with just a good wavedash and dashdance.

I mean, I get wanting some mechanics to work more like they did in Melee, that's understandable. But in the case of having wavedashing , there's no real need for that because of the new dash cancel mechanic. Wavedashing's main purpose was to rush in with an attack, or provide a good mixup by rushing out. Dash Canceling essentially does the same thing, thus wavedashing would be pointless. So if a mechanic in Melee has a similar, easier to execute and more useful alternative in Ultimate, then there's no need for it to return.

 

[Necro'lic]

Melee's form of dash is one of those particular things I am weary of migrating to later Smash games, or really any game in general. From the diagrams I've seen of Ultimate's dash vs Melee's dash, it seems like there is literally no downside to dashing, since there is no inactivity the player has to go through anywhere in the dash. Due to crouch cancelling, I'm pretty sure it leads to Melee dash having pretty much the exact same options as walking, which is not how you should make a movement option. Dash needs to have some actual downside to it, and a startup where you can't do much of anything is a good idea to have. Plus, I'm pretty sure with Ultimate, you have to stop running to shield, whereas I'm pretty sure crouch cancelling would allow it to be almost instant in comparison.

So instead of creating an option to dash dance, it basically makes the option of walking pretty much obsolete, which is ridiculous design. The point is, Dash should have an actual downside, and I think what Ultimate does actually suffices, especially considering after that inactive period at the startup, you can cancel that run into another dash anyway.

To TheMisterManGuy :

I think wavedashing's full potential isn't completely covered by the new dash cancelling mechanic. Mostly the "micro spacing" aspect where you could potentially dash in, quickly wavedash backwards WHILE doing a move to cover you, increasing your approach and attack options.

In this sense, I would want wavedashing to be back. However, make it be treated like a "dodge", meaning it can be staled if used too much, and make it its own button with its own animations and its own sounds. Just straight up make it a new global feature for the game that's easy to execute, easy to notice for spectators, and easy to understand for newcomers.

 

[Flowen231]

I would like it if we could both wavedash and waveland exactly like in Melee (10 frames of lag and available on frame 1 of being airborne) with added input buffer (similar to jump+A being added in Ultimate) just to make wavedashing incredibly simple to execute. Sliding off platforms is something I want because it adds options when combined with wavelanding on top of it adding to the watching experience. Yes, I do think the stale dodging mechanic should also be added to this just to keep casuals happy and not make them think they HAVE to wavedash all the time although the viewing experience probably wouldn't be as great (still good though). Getting casuals to learn tech is to basically tell them to stop being casuals, so I doubt there's any need for tutorials on some of the hardcore tech like wavedashing and ledge cancels. They wouldn't know what to do with them and they would probably not care to use them.
Oh and I'd also love to have dash dancing back exactly as it is in Melee. I wanna go further and say exactly as it is in Slap City.

I mean, do I count as a smash4 player? I've played them all and technically melee for the longest ;p.

Also the notion that people prefer melee over smash 4 isn't really true as far as the sales go. If you combine wiiu and 3ds sales numbers and get an average, than yes, melee sales are higher. But 3ds smash 4 sales beat melee and if you go by total sales then smash 4 is the best selling game in the series. You need to remember that we as the competitive community are infinitesimal in size compared to those "casuals" and because of that the game will be tailored in alot of ways to players of that nature. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's all up to preference and most people, myself included prefer something like smash 4 and ultimate to melee. Also I hope you don't make a habit of wavedashing too much, that's a good way of getting predicted and eating fox' up smash XD.

I can respect the desire to have some melee in later games, and I understand that the bit of melee in smash ultimate isn't enough to satisfy the desire. But it is what it is. I know it doesn't help you much either because I myself prefer this style over my many years of playing melee but it's just like any other game, you either like it, move on, or in PM's case, make your own the say you like it.

 

[Vhozek]

I mean, I get wanting some mechanics to work more like they did in Melee, that's understandable. But in the case of having wavedashing , there's no real need for that because of the new dash cancel mechanic. Wavedashing's main purpose was to rush in with an attack, or provide a good mixup by rushing out. Dash Canceling essentially does the same thing, thus wavedashing would be pointless. So if a mechanic in Melee has a similar, easier to execute and more useful alternative in Ultimate, then there's no need for it to return.

No. Don't start. I could tell you countless reasons why the dash cancel mechanic does NOT replace wavedashing. Every time someone tries to bring up this argument it just tells me how misinformed people are. I've even measured the distance between a wavedash and 10 frames of sprinting in Ultimate with added pivot frames (ultimate) and jumpsquat (melee) frames. The distance shown here for Luigi is 10 frames of running and pivoting takes 4. Wavedash still has more utility than that mechanic while also capable of using it on platforms. Ultimate's air dodge does not let you slide off platforms which is also worse than Melee's.

 

[Vhozek]

I mean, do I count as a smash4 player? I've played them all and technically melee for the longest ;p.

Also the notion that people prefer melee over smash 4 isn't really true as far as the sales go. If you combine wiiu and 3ds sales numbers and get an average, than yes, melee sales are higher. But 3ds smash 4 sales beat melee and if you go by total sales then smash 4 is the best selling game in the series. You need to remember that we as the competitive community are infinitesimal in size compared to those "casuals" and because of that the game will be tailored in alot of ways to players of that nature. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, it's all up to preference and most people, myself included prefer something like smash 4 and ultimate to melee. Also I hope you don't make a habit of wavedashing too much, that's a good way of getting predicted and eating fox' up smash XD.

I can respect the desire to have some melee in later games, and I understand that the bit of melee in smash ultimate isn't enough to satisfy the desire. But it is what it is. I know it doesn't help you much either because I myself prefer this style over my many years of playing melee but it's just like any other game, you either like it, move on, or in PM's case, make your own the say you like it.

Sales say nothing unless both games are in market at the same time which they're not and they were not. Twitch viewership at events and the fact that Melee was always the main event at tournaments basically tells the whole story. In 2016 alone Smash4 only had the upper hand over Melee in 2 tournaments. EVO 2017 Melee was on Saturday and nearly matched the same views as Smash4 on Sunday spot while being on TV, Disney, and ESPN. Not to mention that Mr. Wizard removed Smash4 from Sunday because nobody showed up to watch it at the main stage.
Entrants were not that far off between Melee and Smash4 apart from the first year due to the game's release, but that happens with any game. See how SFV had 5k entrants and now only 2k just like SF4 did even after all those years after release. The only thing left to measure this popularity is by view count and time slots which were all in favor of Melee.

 

[Necro'lic]

Vhozek Just want to reiterate that I overall agree with you that it could get far deeper than what we have. However, I feel like a lot of people conclude that because Melee is so far the most successful Smash game competitively, it means that it's the only way to get it to that level. This is why the idea of "Melee 2.0" is such a controversial phrase for even people who support competitive expansion like myself, because it brings with it the implication that even Melee's many blatant design flaws is what allows it to be successful, instead of in spite of them. It implies wanting to have the same exact physics engine, same exact coding for moves, same exact balance of the characters, same exact everything, which means everything people don't like and everything that is almost objectively flawed game design in certain spots.

I'd rather look at what Melee does right, fix upon or throw out the ideas it does badly, and make an overall better game. I'm sure that's what you want too, but simply saying make this "like Melee" doesn't make it seem like you want the competitive aspect of the series to evolve and grow, it makes it seem like you simply want every aspect of a good, but deeply flawed game, regardless of the nuance of the changes or how their inclusion would create a cascade of unintended consequences throughout the game.

For example, I see so many people asking for higher gravity overall, as well as higher shieldstun, even on weak attacks, as well as more SDI. I would ask why? What would it bring to the game exactly other than making it feel more like Melee in such a superficial manner?

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Guys, I don't want a carbon copy of melee. Like i said I actually prefer project m to melee. It's quite different in fact. What's similar is the fast paced gameplay. People always compare smash to melee cause that's the closest official thing to what they want. What I want is a refined game similar to melee, but better than melee. What it comes down to is being a faster paced game. Faster means more fun. Forget about the whole melee thing. "Melee mode" to me just means a mode with faster gameplay - a mode that is a sort of spiritua successor to melee - a mode that takes some of the best parts of melee and implements them in a fun way. And this can be attainable with some very simple tweaks to the games physics. Things a hacker could do in their sleep (being a brawl modder I can attest to this first hand). And these are things that Sakurai can do without even blinking. It's easy stuff.

 

[Necro'lic]

BronzeGreekGod Again, how would we get this faster game? And would we want to in the same vein as Melee? I'm sure the answer you will give to the second answer is no, but I'm curious about the first. Also, we can't have the game be too fast, else it might cause it to create too high a skill floor. Honestly, I think the overall speed shown in Ultimate is a perfect amount of quickness in terms of overall moves and how you combo or chase into them, but I would definitely like more combo-DI based play, as well as more potential for combos without making the game faster as a whole (in terms of animations, gravity, physics, etc). So what would I do to achieve this?

1: Increase general fast fall speed

This is different from gravity changes because fast fall is something the player is in control of. It allows for less overall floatiness, especially in the neutral, while still allowing for slower, more methodical play should the player wish to use it, whether for situational purposes or because their character relies on slower overall play to win.

2: Increase hitstun and DI variance

These two go hand in hand. DI is the reason why I actually like Smash Bros for combos where other fighters fail, because DI allows for player interaction and thus interesting mindgames not just in the neutral, but even in the advantage state. This should speed up the game technically, but still allow for worse players to get out of these combos should they DI correctly due to the increased variance of it. However, this means the tutorial has to go over DI, which is easy enough.

3: More move functionality

We need more multipurpose moves, whether it be sourspots for combos attached to sweetspots for kills, or more shield cancelling, angles on projectiles/smashes, more multihit smashes a la Link FSmash, etc.

4: More separated move statistics

I have noticed that Smash Bros seems to have formulas in their move equations that intertwine multiple things. For example, knockback on a move is dependent on its damage, priority is dependent on damage, shieldstun is dependent on damage, hitstun is dependent on damage. If we decoupled these stats, we could create much more varied moves with more purposes, and thus much more varied gameplay between characters, which helps literally everyone: casual, competitive, and spectator alike.

These are only a few ideas off the top of my head. Notice how only one of them is something that is generally considered a trait from Melee while the others aren't really indicative of any singular Smash game?