Important Ultimate Buffering System

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#1
I have come to have a new appreciation for just how complicated Ultimate’s buffering system is, and just how important it is to understand. And so I’m going to do my best to present it to you in a way that is both comprehensive and comprehensible.

To achieve this, I’m going to need to split the thread into two separate parts, the basics and the advanced. The basics section is where you’ll get the general picture unhindered by infinite tangents, and the advanced is where I’ll tell you all the specifics and exceptions that you wish didn’t exist.


THE BASICS

DEFINITION
To buffer an action means you make the input for that action at a time where it cannot be performed by your character, then as soon as the action can be performed they will do it without any further input required from you.

HOLD-BUFFER AND HIT-BUFFER
There are two distinct and separate buffering systems in Ultimate that I will refer to as 'hold-buffer' and 'hit-buffer'. (If it makes more sense to you, you can refer to hit-buffering as timed-buffering instead.)
I’ll go into more detail about them in the advanced section, but for now:
- Hold-buffering lets you hold any input infinitely and the corresponding action will be performed as soon as your character is able to do it so long as you are still holding the input up until at least 3 frames before you are able to act.
- Hit-buffering is very similar to what you're used to in Smash 4, except that in Smash 4 you had a 10 frame window. In Ultimate you can input an action up to 9 frames before that action can be performed. Inputs made within the 9 frame hit-buffer window do not need to be held unlike hold-buffering.

ORDER OF PRIORITY EXPLAINED
These two buffering systems generally do not interfere with each other except insofar as the Order of Priority is concerned.
When two or more actions are inputted, something must determine which action will be performed and which one/s will be out-prioritised. Now Sak could have gone with a system like ‘whichever action was inputted last or first will be the one that comes out’, but this would be too simple. Instead he made it so certain actions will always beat out other actions regardless of when they are inputted. The Order of Priority indicates which actions will be prioritised over others; in the case of how I've presented it below, actions will beat whatever is to the right of them.

FUSION (HA)
Just before I give you the Order of Priority, I should explain my use of the word ‘Fusion’ in it. If it makes it any easier to understand, a 'Fusion' is essentially what the game calls a 'Simple Short-Hop Attack', which I personally believe to be a terrible term for reasons that I explain in a post later on in this thread. I will go into much more detail about Fusions in the advanced section, but for those who don't know what a 'Simple Short-Hop Attack' is, a Fusion is what I’m calling the combination of a Jump and Attack input which creates a special type of action with special characteristics, one of which being its place in the order of priorities.

THE ORDER OF PRIORITY:
Character Grounded
Fusion > Item Throw > Dodge > Grab > Shield > Special > Attack > Jump > Taunts > Dash > Turn

Character Airborne
Special > Item Throw > Z-drop > Zair > Airdodge > Aerial/Double Jump/Fusion


THE ADVANCED

FUSION SPECIFICS
Adding to what I said earlier, when I refer to a 'Fusion' I mean any combination of a SH/DJ with an aerial/item-throw. As I said above, and as you can see in the grounded priority list, Fusions are treated differently to just jumping or just attacking.
It is unclear to me whether Fusions are considered to be a single action in the same way that e.g. a Grab is a single action which is separate and distinct from the combination of Shield and Attack, or whether something else is going on here; but the fact that Fusions out-prioritise everything else on the ground and come well before both ‘Attack’ and ‘Jump’ makes me have to seriously consider that it is a single action. This would incidentally mean that Ultimate is like Smash 4 in that you technically cannot buffer multiple actions, whereas in Brawl you could.

When you perform a Fusion (an aerial or item throw combined with a SH or DJ), you will e.g. perform a SH aerial if you combine a grounded attack with a jump.
If you were originally grounded, the direction of the short hop item throw or the type of aerial you perform will be determined based on the position of your joystick when you transition from your jumpsquat to being airborne (i.e. regardless of where your joystick was when the input for the item throw or aerial was made). [Please note that I'm talking about instances where the jump and attack input have both been buffered or at least used on the same frame; you can of course input the direction of an aerial or item throw during the jumpsquat frames and it will be performed in the desired direction out of a SH regardless of whether you were holding that direction once you transitioned into the air and of course regardless of whether you held the jump button.]
If you were buffering into a Fusion double jump, the direction of the item throw and the type of aerial will likewise be determined based on the position of your joystick when the Fusion is performed. Note that this rule does not apply to Meta Knight doing a fusion DJ aerial buffered out of one of his aerials.
Note this is not a C-stick/A-stick issue. It happens even if you use the joystick for everything.

If you interrupt frame 2 of a Jab or frames 2 or 3 of a tilt or smash by inputting a jump, you will perform a fusion.

HOLD-BUFFER AND HIT-BUFFER SPECIFICS
In general, the stick position does not need to be held once it has been inputted with the action you wish to buffer. The exceptions to this rule are Fusions (as already noted), buffered directional airdodges, and buffered aerials out of a teleport edge cancel. For these actions it is necessary to hold the joystick in the desired direction relating to the action you wish to perform as you start the buffered move. Note that the default aerial after a teleport edge cancel depends on the angle of your teleport, e.g. if you teleport forwards you will get a Fair unless you hold the joystick in a different direction.

Hold-buffering is cancelled if the action was given a chance to be used but was out-prioritised by another action, i.e. if you hold-buffer special and jump, special will be performed, and continuing to hold jump will not let you perform it after the special has ended.
In general then, only one action can be buffered ahead of time, with two known exceptions:
1. Peach and Daisy can buffer more than one aerial in a row with a single aerial input if you hold the aerial input from the first aerial then input a float during the first aerial’s animation after the FAF (the animation of moves will typically last longer than the FAF). Doing this will result in a second buffered aerial while floating; which aerial you get will depend on the direction of the joystick when the second buffered aerial is performed, making this a unique fusion that combines a float with an aerial.
2. If you do an airdodge or directional airdodge then continue holding shield and either down, left or right, you will buffer a spotdodge or roll upon landing. You can even e.g. directional airdodge to the right, continue holding both shield and right, and you will buffer a roll to the right upon landing. If you initially buffer the airdodge out of an action, in order to get the buffered roll/spotdodge you will now need to move the joystick at some point while airododging and then you may move it to down/left/right and hold it there; i.e. if you do an aerial, buffer a directional airdodge right, continue holding both shield and right, you will land and shield (tilting shield to the right) instead of roll right.

Buffering is also cancelled by charging. If you input an action before or while charging a smash, the Link’s grounded up-specials, Luigi’s side-special (if released), Sonic’s side and down-special, DDD’s down-special, (and possibly others that I didn’t check,) that action will not be buffered. This may indicate that charging is considered a separate action to performing the move itself.

If 'A+B=Smash' is on, hold-buffering these two will obviously give you a smash input, not a special.

Grab can be held-buffered using both attack and shield inputs, but it isn’t a ‘grab’ if you input attack first; if you do, you end up putting attack and shield against each other in the order of priority list, in which case shield wins.

There was a special mechanic introduced in patch 2.0.0 where you can hold two jump buttons to perform a SH. They need to be two separate jump buttons; tap jump will not count. The second jump input needs to be made either on the same frame or up to the 3rd frame, or in other words, regardless of whether you intend to hold/hit-buffer the input or not, you have the same frame window that you would within your jumpsquat frames if it wasn't buffered. Note that unlike fusions, this specific mechanic does not differ in the order of priorities and is the same as a grounded jump.

When you grab the ledge and you hit-buffer a ledge option using the joystick, you have a potential 17 frame window for some reason.
When buffering a dash you only have a 6 frame window which can be extended to a 7 frame window if you hold the dash input for at least 2 frames.
When buffering a turn-around, you can hold the input for as long as you want beforehand, but you must have been holding backwards up until a 6 frame window in order for it to work. For soft-landings this means you can let go 4 frames before you land (assuming a 2 frame soft landing) and still turn after your landing lag, but when landing with aerials you must wait till the last 6 frames of the aerial’s landing lag.
When buffering a fast fall you have a 3 frame window before the peak of your jump or at the end of your aerial’s hitlag. Note that the fast fall input must be held if you want to buffer it.
When buffering a platform drop-through you can only hold-buffer it and you only have a 4 frame buffer window.
Sort of a side-note, when performing a B-reverse you have a 4 frame window at the beginning of the move, and it too must be held (unless inputted on frame 4). In smash 4 you would turn around on frame 4, but in Ultimate you turn around on frame 5, though the frame window for performing the B-reverse is the same.

Attempting to buffer U-special, Uair or DJ out of a wall-tech can result in a wall-tech-jump as you will immediately enter the wall-tech-jump out of the wall-tech, eating your intended input. You can instead buffer these actions on and after the 2nd frame of a wall-tech-jump.

You cannot buffer inputs during the pokemon trainer switch before the character is loaded on frame 26.

SHIELDING IS DIFFERENT TO HOLD BUFFERING
Shielding should not be thought of as an action that can be buffered or as an action that moves can be buffered out of. It is more of a state than an action. As such it seemingly breaks some of the rules.
Shield cannot be ‘hit-buffered’; rather, the game simply looks for whether you are holding it on any given frame.
If you hold shield, then regardless of whether it was ‘buffered’ with and out-prioritised by another action, you can still shield after that buffered action even if you continue to hold shield, i.e. shield is not cancelled by being out-prioritised like actions are.
If you are holding shield then input a special move (other than up-special) before or on the frame you let go of shield, you will not hold-buffer the special after the shield drop frames.
If you try to jump out of shield or during the shield drop frames and you input a special on the same frame as the jump, you will not perform the special.
The same goes for trying to input an attack (other than U-smash) on the frame you drop shield; it will not hold-buffer the attack.

BUFFERING OUT OF SHIELD WHEN YOUR SHIELD IS HIT
The grounded order of priority applies to buffering out of shieldstun for those actions you can actually use OoS, but note that this situation has some extra things to consider.

Tilt/soft item-throws, Dodges, and SH Z-drops cannot be held-buffered if your shield is hit.
You will need to continue to hold shield and then time it so you buffer a tilt/soft-item-throw within a 6 frame window. If you instead input a smash-item-throw you will have no such trouble and can in fact hold-buffer the smash item throw input at any point. So don’t bother doing anything but smash item throws OoS.
For dodges (rolls and spotdodge) you need to hit the input within a 9 frame window and hold it until you at least get to the 6 frame window, otherwise it won’t work.
Similarly, attempting to hold-buffer a SH Z-drop in this situation can result in an empty jump as your Z-drop needs to be inputted within the 9 frame hit-buffer window (and then held so as to avoid a SH item throw).

If you drop shield during shieldstun (not shield hitlag, though if you don't re-shield before shieldstun then it's just as bad), shield-drop will out-prioritise everything else you attempted to buffer, though you can still jump during shield drop so actions tied to jump remain unaffected, and if you were hold-buffering grab before you dropped shield you didn't really drop shield so that works fine too. Point is, hold onto your shield unless you intend to jump out.

There is a 4 frame delay that applies to grabs OoS out of shield stun, so this may mess up hit-buffer timings.

BUFFERING OUT OF JUMPSQUAT
The airborne order of priority applies to buffering out of jumpsquats as you will perform the actions on your first airborne frame.
Note that U-smash and Item throw will only cancel a jumpsquat if you’re not holding jump.
Buffering aerials and item throws out of a jumpsquat forces a SH and performs the attack in the direction you desired regardless of whether you held the direction.

MORE ON ITEMS
Item Throw out-prioritises Z-drop unless both inputs are hold-buffered and Z-drop is inputted earlier or on the same frame. If for example only the z-drop is hold-buffered and the item throw is hit-buffered, then regardless of the fact that the Z-drop was inputted first, the character will perform an item throw, because in this case both actions were not hold-buffered.

If you attempt to do a SH Z-drop by inputting the jump and the z-drop on the same frame, you must continue holding the grab button until you are airborne to avoid getting a SH item throw.
If you attempt to hold-buffer a SH Z-drop out of a grounded action (outside the 9 frame window), the jump will be ignored (regardless of how you buffer the jump) and you will do a grounded item throw.
If you attempt to hit-buffer a SH Z-drop and therefore do not continue to hold the Z-drop input during the jumpsquat, the Z-drop will be turned into a SH aerial item throw.
The only way to buffer a SH Z-drop out of a grounded action is to input the Z-drop during the 9 frame hit-buffer window and continue to hold grab during the jumpsquat; it doesn’t matter how you buffer the jump.



The end?
No. Buffering in Ultimate is a nightmare. There will always be more I've missed. Always.
 
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Sabaca

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#3
There are more weird exceptions.
If you teleport cancel on a edge, a buffered aerial(hit and hold) will always result in a nair(same as smash4 I think?).

For Meta-Knight(Not for Ridley, Jiggs, Kirby, Pit, Dark Pit, Charizard and DDD which should be all multijump chars except MK if I didn't miss anyone) the direction for buffered double jump aerial/item throw is read the moment you buffer it, if you do it out of the lag of one of his aerials. Buffering out of hitstun and airdodge still works exactly as you described.
 
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Doval

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#4
Thanks for this thread. I've been playing around with this as well, so we can compare notes and combine our findings.
There are two distinct and separate buffering systems in Ultimate that I will refer to as 'hold-buffer' and 'hit-buffer'.
For whatever it's worth I think "timed buffering" would be more intuitive than "hit buffering".
In Ultimate you can now hold any input infinitely and the action will be performed as soon as your character is able to do it so long as you are still holding the input.
Two things worth pointing out here:
  1. You can't hold-buffer dashes. Whether you choose to just flick the stick or hold it, the initial stick movement has to be timed.
  2. You only have to hold the button(s). The stick position only matters on the frame the button is pressed.
The exception to this is where you try to hold-buffer an action while holding shield (e.g. specials), or before/during charging a smash (includes charging the Link's Up-specials); in these instances, hold-buffering will not work for anything but shield (i.e. an exception within an exception; off to a good start).
Hold buffering definitely works while shielding, with the exception of rolls.

Character Shielding:
Simple Short-Hop Attack > Release Shield* > Item Throw > Rolls** > Up Special > Grab*** > Jump

* Releasing the shield button at any point during shield stun will buffer a shield release, even if you start holding the button again before the stun ends. Letting go during hit freeze is fine as long as you're holding the shield button again during shield stun.
** Rolls require timing. You have to flick the stick during the 9-frame buffer window and not release it until the last 6 frames.
*** There's a 4 frames delay if you try to shieldgrab after blocking an attack which can throw off your timed buffering.

In short, do not let go of the shield button or your only recourse will be to buffer a Simple Short-Hop Attack or manually cancel your buffered shield release into a jump. Hold buffering is the way to go when shielding, though you will have to time your rolls (since they require timing) and up smashes (since holding the button too long will result in charging the smash.)

Hit-buffering is very similar to what you're used to in Smash 4. You can input actions up to 9 frames before the action can be performed, i.e. 1 frame less than Smash 4. Inputs made within the 9 frame window**** do not need to be held
There's a special case here: dashes have a 6 frame window.
The Order of Priority When Buffering:
Character Grounded
Simple Short-Hop Attack > Item Throw > Rolls > Grab > Shield > Special > Attack > Jump > Taunts > Dash
My additions in bold. The Simple Short-Hop Attack has different priority and behavior so it's worth giving it a name.

Character Jumpsquatting:
Side/Neutral/Down Special > Air Dodge > Attack/Double Jump/Simple Short-Hop Attack

Up specials and item throws will just cancel the jumpsquat altogether.

The type of air dodge is determined by the stick position on the first frame of the airdodge; it's not possible to buffer the direction.

Character Airborne
Special > Item Throw > Z-drop* > Zair > Airdodge > Aerial / Double Jump / Simple Short-Hop Attack
Aerial, Double Jump and Simple Short-Hop Attack are three distinct, mutually-exclusive possibilities so I felt that was more accurate than saying attack outprioritizes jumps.

The type of air dodge is determined by the stick position on the first frame of the airdodge; it's not possible to buffer the direction.
If shield and attack are both held-buffered it will of course turn into a grab, except if attack is inputed first, in which case shield will win.
You're really not buffering shield here. Shielding is more of a state than a move, and the game will check if Shield is held down every single frame that you're grounded. On the other hand the buffering system only keeps buffered moves until your current move finishes. So you're either buffering a grab by pushing both buttons simultaneously, or you're just buffering an attack and then the shield is preventing it from coming out.
If an attack, aerial or item throw** is buffered with jump or double jump, both actions will be performed (e.g. you will perform a SH aerial if you buffer a grounded attack + a jump). If you were originally grounded, the direction of the aerial item throw or the type of aerial you perform will be determined based on the position of your joystick when you transition from your jumpsquat to being airborne (i.e. regardless of where your joystick was when the input for the aerial was made), otherwise if you were buffering with a double jump the direction of the throw and type of aerial will be determined based on the position of your joystick when the actions are performed (i.e. same thing minus the jumpsquat transition).
This is not a c-stick/a-stick issue. It happens even if you use the joystick for everything.
This is basically the Simple Short-Hop Attack I've been mentioning. If you ever buffer a Jump button press and an Attack button press at any point, you'll get this behavior. This'll happen even if you buffer both button presses separately and even if you the Attack button was buffered through the Grab button or right stick set to Smash or Tilt. Because of this, it's impossible to buffer an aerial with a full jump. You can also buffer this in mid-air or during jumpsquat, which'll result in a mid-air jump and aerial on the same frame.

The Simple Short-Hop Attack is not the same as just buffering an aerial during your jumpsquat. If you let go of the jump button and input an aerial during jumpsquat the aerial will be buffered normally and you'll get whatever aerial you buffered regardless of which way you're holding the stick on the frame you go airborne. Also, the Simple Short-Hop Attack has different priority in the buffering system from a regular jump if you're grounded or shielding.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#5
Yo Doval! Nice to see you still around.

Before I go on I should note that I had intended to come back and fix this thread up as the first step towards making a video about buffering, as I wasn't happy with the way I worded some parts and I can see that in some cases it has led to misunderstanding, so you have my apologies for that.

Yeah so the hit-buffer name was mostly chosen because of the fact that you didn't have to hold the buffered input, that and because 'hit and hold' is an established pairing that sounds nice, but yes, it doesn't speak to the fact that you must time the input during the 9 frame window; that part is to be assumed when you know what it means just as you would assume you don't need to hold the input if you have timed it and can therefore simply hit it. I'm happy to include timed-buffer as an alternate name though.

Good point about the stick position, that wasn't clearly in place when I later talked about how this is different for buffered aerials starting on the ground.

The shielding thing was I think misunderstood, as I was talking about e.g. holding shield, then holding special, then letting go of shield; the special will not come out. It was poorly worded on my part.

Dash was one thing I had intended to add, but thank you for noting that it has a smaller window.
Also that thing about SH Aerials having the most priority blew my mind lol. I didn't think to check that after checking just buffering jumps. That's really fascinating. It's like it's considered an entirely different option.

The separate jumpsquat section is great, and I think I'll note then and there that the jump must be released to cancel the jumpsquat for U-smash and item throw.
Character airborne additions are noted.

Later I mentioned that thing about the shield seemingly doing it's own thing and ignoring the whole 'can only hold-buffer before a move is finished', but I prefer your understanding of why this happens so I'll use that.

I'm not completely sold on the name of 'simple short-hop attack' but again, it is very interesting to note that it is considered it's own separate thing. I'll see what I can do about that.

Oh and note to self for when you do update this, don't forget to include the double aerial buffer using Peach/Daisy float. Crazy weird exception where you do an aerial and hold the aerial input, then if you float while the aerial's animation is still occuring (animation being different to FAF), you will buffer a second aerial with the same input.
 

Doval

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#6
Yo Doval! Nice to see you still around.
Thanks! I can't resist the pull of a new Smash game.
Dash was one thing I had intended to add, but thank you for noting that it has a smaller window.
Speaking of which, it turns out you can buffer turn-arounds too, with lower priority than dashes. They use the same 6-frame window but you can start holding it beforehand; it doesn't matter when you first started holding the stick.

Initially I thought the game would automatically turn you around if you transitioned from airborne to grounded while holding the opposite direction, but it turns out it's just buffered turn-around. EDIT: Actually, that is exactly what happens if you land normally. However, if you land during an aerial, the game doesn't turn you around automatically; that's where buffering comes in. The difference is in the former case your character turns during the landing lag and in the latter they turn after the landing lag, assuming you didn't buffer something else.
Also that thing about SH Aerials having the most priority blew my mind lol. I didn't think to check that after checking just buffering jumps. That's really fascinating. It's like it's considered an entirely different option.
Yeah, it's almost like the programmers defined a new "move" that scripts an attack at the first opportunity after a jump.
The separate jumpsquat section is great, and I think I'll note then and there that the jump must be released to cancel the jumpsquat for U-smash and item throw.
Character airborne additions are noted.
Good catch! I hadn't noticed that.
Speaking of character airborne, if you're in hit freeze from hitting someone with an aerial and you're past the apex of your jump, you can buffer a fast fall by holding down at any point during the last 3 frames of hit freeze and keeping it held until it ends.
I'm not completely sold on the name of 'simple short-hop attack' but again, it is very interesting to note that it is considered it's own separate thing. I'll see what I can do about that.
It's a bit long but that's what the Tips section of the game calls that technique so it's kind of the official name?
 
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Shack

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#7
Is there a way to get around the buffer system? I keep wanting to turn around ftilt ppl and keep getting fsmash instead. I try to slowly tilt the stick, but it's no where near the same timing as melee or 4 was.
 

Doval

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#9
Is there a way to get around the buffer system?
Nope.
I keep wanting to turn around ftilt ppl and keep getting fsmash instead. I try to slowly tilt the stick, but it's no where near the same timing as melee or 4 was.
In my opinion the most practical solution is to just map the right stick to Tilt. Doing tilts manually and quickly is relatively hard, while doing smashes with the left stick is easy anyways. Having the right stick mapped to Smash is a waste.

If you still want to do it manually, you still have plenty of time to either move the stick carefully or wait for the timing window for side smashes to expire. You have until frame 6 to quickly turn the dash around. The length of the initial dash varies by character but seems to be around 10 to 13 frames; at that point you can shield immediately, but many characters still have to brake for a few frames before they're able to do other moves. For example, Mario's dash lasts for 10 frames and he brakes for 4 frames, while Ness's dash lasts 13 frames but he brakes for 1 frame. So there's a window of around 8 frames during which you can safely hold back and wouldn't be able to do anything anyways.

The window of time you have to still get a smash attack when pressing the Attack button varies with stick sensitivity. So you could set your sensitivity to Low and that'll give you the lowest chance of getting an accidental side smash, but that'll also make the timing of up and down smashes really tight, and it also shrinks the window for cancelling your dash into a side smash. So I prefer to just use Tilt stick with High Sensitivity, so you get easy tilts and easy smashes.
 

Shack

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#10
Nope.In my opinion the most practical solution is to just map the right stick to Tilt. Doing tilts manually and quickly is relatively hard, while doing smashes with the left stick is easy anyways. Having the right stick mapped to Smash is a waste.

If you still want to do it manually, you still have plenty of time to either move the stick carefully or wait for the timing window for side smashes to expire. You have until frame 6 to quickly turn the dash around. The length of the initial dash varies by character but seems to be around 10 to 13 frames; at that point you can shield immediately, but many characters still have to brake for a few frames before they're able to do other moves. For example, Mario's dash lasts for 10 frames and he brakes for 4 frames, while Ness's dash lasts 13 frames but he brakes for 1 frame. So there's a window of around 8 frames during which you can safely hold back and wouldn't be able to do anything anyways.

The window of time you have to still get a smash attack when pressing the Attack button varies with stick sensitivity. So you could set your sensitivity to Low and that'll give you the lowest chance of getting an accidental side smash, but that'll also make the timing of up and down smashes really tight, and it also shrinks the window for cancelling your dash into a side smash. So I prefer to just use Tilt stick with High Sensitivity, so you get easy tilts and easy smashes.
Thanks. I meant more for out of shield or when landing and facing the wrong way. Guess I just have to get used to using c stick in stead :/
 

Z1GMA

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#11
Is there a way to buffer a iDA in the end frames of a move you're still in? I labbed it, but I have had no success so far.
 

Fossana

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#14
Some other stuff worth noting (sorry if I mention something already covered in this thread):

If you input an action on the first frame that your character can act again, this action will have to compete with all the actions in the buffer. In other words, a frame perfect input will have to still outprioritize the actions in the buffer to be performed in favor of the actions in the buffer.

If you buffer an input containing jump as well as input containing the cstick or A button, you will perform a shorthop aerial no matter what. The order of these inputs doesn't matter, the number of frames in between these inputs doesn't matter, having other inputs in-between these inputs doesn't matter, etc. Even if the A button was used in an input for a tilt/smash attack you'll still end up doing a shorthup aerial. For example, in the last 9 frames of an action, if you do a tilt attack on frame 1, seven other inputs for frames 2-8, and then a jump on frame 9, you'll end up doing a shorthop aerial.
 

LucasTizma

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#16
Why are tilts when using tilt stick not hold-bufferable? Often, while shielding, I want an immediate tilt as soon as shield drops. But unless I wait until pretty much my shield is already gone to flick tilt stick, holding the tilt stick will simply do nothing. No other attack. Furthermore, if I flick the tilt stick rapidly, even when just standing still, it won’t do anything.

Why do tilts seem to be handled strangely?

Secondly, maybe you explained this above and I missed it, but I believe if you hold buffer jump and tilt stick, it will always do a neutral air regardless of the stick direction. If I instead hold buffer jump, direction, and A, it will do the appropriate aerial out of shield.

Why does tilt stick seem broken (seems exactly the same as in Smash 4)?
 
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DavemanCozy

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#17
I'm gonna be nitpicky here.

I am more sold on calling the fusion a simple shorthop attack simply because the game calls it that. I was confused what you meant regarding the fusion until I realized it was the same thing as the simple shorthop attack.

If the game itself calls it that, I would rather use that term. More people are likely to understand it.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#18
Updated with another possible instance where you can buffer two actions with the one input.

Why are tilts when using tilt stick not hold-bufferable? Often, while shielding, I want an immediate tilt as soon as shield drops. But unless I wait until pretty much my shield is already gone to flick tilt stick, holding the tilt stick will simply do nothing. No other attack. Furthermore, if I flick the tilt stick rapidly, even when just standing still, it won’t do anything.

Why do tilts seem to be handled strangely?

Secondly, maybe you explained this above and I missed it, but I believe if you hold buffer jump and tilt stick, it will always do a neutral air regardless of the stick direction. If I instead hold buffer jump, direction, and A, it will do the appropriate aerial out of shield.

Why does tilt stick seem broken (seems exactly the same as in Smash 4)?
Tilts while using the tilt-stick are hold bufferable though. Maybe you're just having trouble with frame-advance not liking the tilt-stick.

I explained what's wrong with buffering stuff out of a dropped shield in the thread. You are probably inputting the tilt-attack on the frame you drop shield.

The tilt stick needs to be returned to rest in neutral before it can be used again, so rapidly moving it around will mess with this, an issue that shouldn't be a problem considering that you can just hold-buffer. There is no needs to mash to get an attack out asap.

I explained in the thread the situation you're talking about and further explained that it isn't a issue with the tilt-stick, it is an issue with fusions regardless of how they are performed.

I'm gonna be nitpicky here.

I am more sold on calling the fusion a simple shorthop attack simply because the game calls it that. I was confused what you meant regarding the fusion until I realized it was the same thing as the simple shorthop attack.

If the game itself calls it that, I would rather use that term. More people are likely to understand it.
I was honestly just then in the middle of entirely replacing 'Fusion' with 'Simple Short-Hop Attack' (< that was just copy-pasted for example) when I was like.. no I can't. I can't have people talking about doing a 'Simple Short-Hop Attack' when they really mean e.g. a buffered DJ + item throw; in this instance it's not simple, it's not a SH, and it's not an 'attack' in the same way that e.g. a jab is. It also doesn't serve to separate in people's minds that this is a separate action here, separate to the 'SH' (read as 'jump'..) and the 'Attack' inputs being made. I think at best I can explain immediately in the Fusion section that this is what the game refers to as a Simple Short-Hop Attack (and this I have done). While I'm not a fan of having to make up a word, I think in this case it's necessary; I knew I wanted it to preferably be a single word that explains the underlying mechanic of what was going on that could easily merge with our current lingo, so fusion is what I settled on. I'm still open to being persuaded though.
 
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Fossana

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#21
I'm confused on this. I wanna figure out why fair keeps on comin out instead of bair, that's my only problem.
Are you using the cstick? The direction of the cstick won't be read after a buffered action begins unless you return it to neutral first, in which case the game will use the control stick to determine the type of aerial you do. So if you buffer shorthop fair with cstick and hold left with the control stick (assuming your character is facing right) you'll do a bair instead of a fair.
 

TheMagic1

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#22
What direction are you facing and what the inputs you are doing?
Are you using the cstick? The direction of the cstick won't be read after a buffered action begins unless you return it to neutral first, in which case the game will use the control stick to determine the type of aerial you do. So if you buffer shorthop fair with cstick and hold left with the control stick (assuming your character is facing right) you'll do a bair instead of a fair.
I'm usin c stick
 

Vipermoon

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#23
I'm not the biggest fan of "Fusion", but it looks like fusion wins. 2.0.0 has another short hop shortcut, and it's a fusion of two jump buttons (not including tap jump),

Then again, this new shortcut is probably called "simple short hop" by the game.
 
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ASAP_Smash

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#24
Hi, I’ve done some research on buffering as well, and want to clear some things up about ‘fusions’.

Fusions are completed with any two inputs stored during a buffering frame.

The game can store only one fusion per buffer frame window (ie. jumpsquat frames).

Once the fusion has been stored nothing else will cancel it until it has been fully released.

Incomplete fusions reset with each frame.
-If the first frame of a jump-squat does not store a complete fusion the next frame of the jump-squat will be cleared of any stored inputs.

In conclusion, the buffer system begins to feel clunky when we press multiple inputs on the same frame due to its limit of two inputs per input storing frame. For example, if I press JUMP, BACK, and ‘A’ on the same frame; the game will fuse JUMP, and ‘A’ but will ignore the BACK input resulting in a stored neutral air. The stored neutral air can be altered by a held directional input, but the directional input can no longer be stored for the rest of the jump-squat frames.

However, this can be fixed by only pressing one input during a buffering frame because incomplete fusions will be cleared on the next frame. For example; if I only input JUMP, then the next frame will clear all stored inputs allowing me to store BACK, and ‘A’ to successfully store a back air.

ATTACK CANCELLS:

Every grounded neutral attack has a two frame window on start up to be fused with a jump. Once the attack has been cancelled with a jump the game will automatically store a neutral air forcing you to hold a directional input.
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#25
It's been a while since I've had a chance to touch the game, but I've updated the thread with the specifics of the new '2 x jump-inputs = SH' mechanic, I've made it more clear that there is a difference between a fusion and buffering aerials/item throws out of a jumpsquat, and I've added a note about interrupting frame 2 of a jab and frame 2 to 3 of a tilt/smash with jump.
 
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#26
You can't start hold buffering during hitlag according to my testing. Actually important to know, let's you hit someone offstage and want to hold buffer your jump or up-b for recovering back, if you start holding during the hitlag off you hitting your opponent, nothing will happen.
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#27
You can't start hold buffering during hitlag according to my testing. Actually important to know, let's you hit someone offstage and want to hold buffer your jump or up-b for recovering back, if you start holding during the hitlag off you hitting your opponent, nothing will happen.
What character/aerial were you testing and under what specific circumstances? I checked just now and it seems to work fine.
 

ASAP_Smash

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#28
Hi, couple new things to add to the buffer system.

-Frame three of a jab can be used to buffer a grab during hitstun (and only this frame).
-short hop macro forces c-stick inputs to fully register on the next frame rather than dropping the directional input on the same frame (yay! Consistent RAR!)
 
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channel_KYX

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#29
Hi, couple new things to add to the buffer system.

-Frame three of a jab can be used to buffer a grab during hitstun (and only this frame).
-short hop macro forces c-stick inputs to fully register on the next frame rather than dropping the directional input on the same frame (yay! Consistent RAR!)
I like it when new things are found out. But I'm sorry, I don't understand both of these.
Could you please explain a bit?
And how can this be used in practice? Having exactly one frame to buffer something doesn't sound practical...
 

Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#30
-Frame three of a jab can be used to buffer a grab during hitstun (and only this frame).
That's not what I'm seeing unless I'm misunderstanding. Can you give a specific example and go into more detail?

-short hop macro forces c-stick inputs to fully register on the next frame rather than dropping the directional input on the same frame (yay! Consistent RAR!)
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I did address the way these work in the 'fusion specifics' and 'buffering out of a jumpsquat' sections.
 

ASAP_Smash

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#31
That's not what I'm seeing unless I'm misunderstanding. Can you give a specific example and go into more detail?


I'm not sure what you mean by this, but I did address the way these work in the 'fusion specifics' and 'buffering out of a jumpsquat' sections.
So first of all discredit what I said about the short hop macro. After further testing it does not fix the c-stick dropping inputs on the first frame of a jump-squat.

Secondly, here’s a tutorial on how to jab grab
 
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Fox Is Openly Deceptive

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#32
Secondly, here’s a tutorial on how to jab grab
Yeah.. this is what I was hoping you didn't mean.
This is just normal hold-buffering and there is nothing special about the third frame of the jab and it doesn't have to be held during hitstun (referring to the part in your previous post where you said "Frame three of a jab can be used to buffer a grab during hitstun (and only this frame)").
Grab is a macro for shield + A. If you were holding A on the frame before inputting grab, the game will think you never let go of A and will instead just think you've inputted shield; that is why you need a gap of at least one frame.
Grab can be held on any frame of the jab (e.g. 4 or 2 even) so long as you weren't holding A on the previous frame. (To be able to hold it on a frame sooner than 3 you just need to have buffered the jab.)
 

ASAP_Smash

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#33
Yeah.. this is what I was hoping you didn't mean.
This is just normal hold-buffering and there is nothing special about the third frame of the jab and it doesn't have to be held during hitstun (referring to the part in your previous post where you said "Frame three of a jab can be used to buffer a grab during hitstun (and only this frame)").
Grab is a macro for shield + A. If you were holding A on the frame before inputting grab, the game will think you never let go of A and will instead just think you've inputted shield; that is why you need a gap of at least one frame.
Grab can be held on any frame of the jab (e.g. 4 or 2 even) so long as you weren't holding A on the previous frame. (To be able to hold it on a frame sooner than 3 you just need to have buffered the jab.)
Gotcha, thanks for the info
 
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