Two Samus vs Peach questions

[Paradigm]

I've been playing quite a bit with a local Peach, and noticed a couple things I'd like to ask about.

First off, sometimes my missiles go through Peach's veggies and sometimes they don't. Does anyone know what determines this? It'd be really, really nice if I could control it, or at least predict it.

Secondly, when watching videos with other Samus vs Peach, and Peach is floating trying to space a fair, I noticed the Samus usually does one of three things: (1) attempt a surprise nair against it (which is risky because Peach could beat it with her nair), (2) take the hit on the shield and screw attack (which is risky if there are no platforms around), or (3) wavedash back at the last second (which isn't always an option - eventually the Samus gets pushed back to the edge). Lately I've been jumping into the floating Peach with a fair of my own. It is fast enough to beat the Peach's fair and disjointed enough to beat her nair. I can't usually follow it up, but it seems to be completely destroying her float approach. Is there a reason I don't see other Samus players doing this? Maybe the Peach I'm playing against just doesn't know the proper response.

 

[Corigames]

"First off, sometimes my missiles go through Peach's veggies and sometimes they don't. Does anyone know what determines this? It'd be really, really nice if I could control it, or at least predict it."
Look at the different faces on turnips. They have different priorities and damages (very, very minute differences). Some go through missiles, some clank, and some crumble to them. Unless you can identify and react to each kind of turnip, you aren't going to be able to really react to it in that way, just be prepared for a turnip to come at you.
>Is there a reason I don't see other Samus players doing this? Maybe the Peach I'm playing against just doesn't know the proper response.
This.
Her spacing is probably over aggressive, expecting to be able to crown smack or galaxy twirl you instead of playing standard Peach and staying juuuuuuuuust out of reach.

Also, imo, you should go more with Option 3 primarily (WD forward on occasion, always DD or move around instead of standing there waiting, etc mindgames), Option 1&2 sparingly, but don't forget about upward angled Ftilts and Utilts. They can be surprisingly effective against the floaty witch of the shrooms.

 

[MonkUnit]

Someone should use 1.0 and test out which turnips smash missiles beat out and which turnips beat out missiles and stuff. Including throwing the turnips at different strengths. Does throwing them with different strengths use different % or priority?

 

[Corigames]

 

[Paradigm]

Corigames - thank you very much, that was quite helpful.


MonkUnit - If I had a 'cube with me I'd try to test such things, but I don't; mostly smashing at others' places who likely don't have the patience for such things. If I can talk someone into it I may report back with my results.

 

[MonkUnit]

It'd also probably be faster and easier for someone to edit Peach's file to have the chance of a specific turnip be 100%. That way you could easily test the throw strengths and turnip types. So you could test the =) turnip with 100% of =), then Stitchface with 100%, etc. until all turnip types have been tested with each throw strength. Or you could do this in normal Melee, but it will probably take longer.

 

[Corigames]

Kinda in a rush right now, but you might want to check the Melee Peach boards, they might have a write-up on Turnips since a Peach player probably asks about them once a month.

 

[bubbaking]

Someone should use 1.0 and test out which turnips smash missiles beat out and which turnips beat out missiles and stuff. Including throwing the turnips at different strengths. Does throwing them with different strengths use different % or priority?

1.0? Is that some kind of Melee mod or are u referring to the very first version of Melee?

 

[MonkUnit]

Referring to the very first version. There's 1.0, 1.1, and 1.2.

Also, the whole missiles beating turnips and stuff also happens in 1.1 and 1.2, IIRC.

 

[bubbaking]

So why would we be testing it out w/ 1.0 as opposed to 1.2, the latest version?

 

[MonkUnit]

At the time, I only knew it was 1.0 only. Then I was told later that it also works in 1.1 and 1.2.

 

[bubbaking]

I see. Would anyone actually have time to confirm the face of a turnip and know what its effect on missiles will be before she throws it? Seems kinda impractical, since she's probably gonna throw it right after plucking it. I have a hard enough time recognizing stitchies and ditto turnips... (-_-)

 

[Corigames]

Unless you can identify and react to each kind of turnip, you aren't going to be able to really react to it in that way, just be prepared for a turnip to come at you.

Would anyone actually have time to confirm the face of a turnip and know what its effect on missiles will be before she throws it? Seems kinda impractical...

Regardless of whether there is a comprehensive table expressing this data, the practicality of it seems minimal at best considering the plethora of other details you could work on in the match-up.

 

[Paradigm]

Regardless of whether there is a comprehensive table expressing this data, the practicality of it seems minimal at best considering the plethora of other details you could work on in the match-up.

It could be that I'm just playing at a lower level than you are, but it does seem like it could be useful for me against the Peach I have been playing recently. We're both rather defensive and our matches result in short spurts of turnip vs missile bouts quite regularly. If I could predict when my missile will beat his turnip, I'd be able to wavedash up aggressively behind the missile and do something like ftilt, nair or grab.

I'm more than willing to accept that this isn't feasible against a sufficiently capable Peach or isn't useful with a sufficiently capable Samus, but where I'm at and who I'm against I could definitely see it help me out.

 

[Corigames]

We're both rather defensive and our matches result in short spurts of turnip vs missile bouts quite regularly.

Don't try to out spam Peach. If she gets turnip happy and you respond by missile camping, then you aren't going to make much progress. In addition to that, you are letting her fish for items and stitch faces. You don't get a random super awesome missile every once in a while, she does. That's not a winning game for Samus. If she starts plucking veggies, then put pressure on her. That's time when she isn't floating around and can't grab you.

If I could predict when my missile will beat his turnip, I'd be able to wavedash up aggressively behind the missile and do something like ftilt, nair or grab.

Except, the missile will beat out the turnip but won't make it go away. The only time turnips disappear is when they hit the ground or run out of time. So even if your missile does stop it and goes right through, the turnip will still bounce in the air and probably hit you. My suggestion is that, if Peach feels like chucking things at you, to approach while catching turnips or from an angle which she can't you with them from.

where I'm at and who I'm against I could definitely see it help me out.

Don't think about strategies to help you get by while you aren't that great, work on the strategies, abilities, skills, powers, strengths, endurance, temperance, and speed of high level play. One will let you be better than your friend, one will let you be better than everyone.

 

[Paradigm]

Don't try to out spam Peach. If she gets turnip happy and you respond by missile camping, then you aren't going to make much progress. In addition to that, you are letting her fish for items and stitch faces. You don't get a random super awesome missile every once in a while, she does. That's not a winning game for Samus. If she starts plucking veggies, then put pressure on her. That's time when she isn't floating around and can't grab you.

I found myself resorting to missile spam for two reasons. One was on the advice of someone whom I should know well enough to ignore, and the other was that I had trouble getting through the turnips. In general, if the Peach sees me trying to approach, the turnips get followed up way to well. If I try to approach with my shield up and wavedashing I get grabbed or, more often, hit during the wavedash itself. If I successfully catch I lose access to too many moves with the Peach right in my face.

My plan was to stay aggressive to ensure the Peach doesn't have time to grab a turnip, but once the turnip is in hand I go defensive with missiles. I was hoping the missile-through-turnip would be the answer to getting through the turnip spam.

I've certainly not exhausted all of my options when a turnip is coming my way, and I'll continue to work on things other than my own spam.

Except, the missile will beat out the turnip but won't make it go away. The only time turnips disappear is when they hit the ground or run out of time. So even if your missile does stop it and goes right through, the turnip will still bounce in the air and probably hit you.

I hadn't considered this; that definitely kills the plan I had in mind.

My suggestion is that, if Peach feels like chucking things at you, to approach while catching turnips or from an angle which she can't you with them from.

I'll catch turnips from a sufficiently long distance, but there is a certain range within which if I catch the turnip I find I've just lost options I need at that range. I also feel limited in terms of angles - I don't like being in the air in general as I lose to much manuverability and staying on the main platform is predictable and easy to chuck at.

I could be overlooking something, though. I'll see what I can do.

Don't think about strategies to help you get by while you aren't that great, work on the strategies, abilities, skills, powers, strengths, endurance, temperance, and speed of high level play. One will let you be better than your friend, one will let you be better than everyone.

In general, my tech skill goes up the longer I play (think weeks, months) and dies down when I take breaks over similar timespans. For me, anyways, it's just a matter of actively playing a lot to get most of those things you've listed. I've got a game plan against the vast majority of the cast, but for some reason I've never learned Peach. Historically I could overpower the Peaches I played against in turnaments through superior technical skill - outreading, outreating, etc. I'm pretty sure I've never played the match-up "properly", though. Since that time I've stopped playing for a while, my tech skill dropped through the floor. I've got a local Peach to play with and figured I'd take the opportunity to learn the match up. Strategies are the only part that really take a conscious effort on my part; the rest just comes with time.

Very helpful, Corygames - I'll do what I can to try to implement the changes you recommend.

 

[THE RED SPARROW]

Don't forget guys, when you shield a turnip, its hitbox grows larger making it even trickier to catch. Also the Peach v. Samus matchup is balls...

 

[darkatma]

The way the turnips work is this:
There are four types of peach turnips in terms of damage: the normal turnips, which do 6-8%, the wink face, which does 10-12%, the dot eyed turnip, which does 16-18%, and the stitchface, which does 32-34% damage. The missile does 15?%.

The missile will always go through the normal turnips, neutralize the 2 middle strength turnips, and flat out lose to the stitchface (the stitchface will continue traveling like it didn't hit anything). This has to do with damage differences: >7% difference, the strong one will win out, and <7% difference, the two attacks will clank. (it's actually some iffy range between 7-9%, but the gist is there)

 

[MonkUnit]

Fresh smash missiles do 12% and fresh homing missiles do 5%.

 

[Prince_Abu]

peach is easy

 

[KidWithChemicals]

i thought i knew the peach match up well enough until i played someone who was pretty legit with her a week ago lol. anyway, to be honest it seems like peach is most vulnerable when she's got a turnip in her hands, and grounded. like, she can't do anything OoS. i hadn't realized since i barely played her.

i'm thinking FJ/SHFFL'd Dair can be pretty effective at this time..catches her if she jumps or forces her into shield. either way it stops turnip spamming and gets you in close for jabs/grab on her shield, or a follow up if you hit her. this is something i really need to remember when i'm fighting her. >_<

you should keep this in mind too paradigm.

and no joke i almost changed my avatar to a picture of Iago from Aladdin a few hours ago. that would have been pretty ironic with your comment right above mine Abu. lol

 

[vadgama]

It would have been better to post these two samus vs peach questions in the character matchups thread. Since this thread is unstickied, this info will inevitably get buried. Having all matchup questions in one thread is just a lot nicer for finding matchup info too.

 

[bubbaking]

^^^ That's very true.

 

[bubbaking]

It would have been better to post these two samus vs peach questions in the character matchups thread. Since this thread is unstickied, this info will inevitably get buried. Having all matchup questions in one thread is just a lot nicer for finding matchup info too.

Lolz, epic 3 year bump, but I just wanted to say that this actually happened. I needed to find some info regarding Samus' missiles vs Peach's turnips and I remembered this thread, but I couldn't find it 'cause it was buried. Ended up having to Google search to find the topic.

 

[JerkPhil]

Drunk post:

Yeah, the missiles vs turnips are insteresting. I think it depends on which angle the missiles hit the turnips, rather than which turnips hits the missiles.