Data Town Hall Meeting - Villager Matchup Discussion

[Darklink401]

Lololol. Yeah this is definitely more useful that pocketing the stupid thing. Is there any move we have that's safe on shield in case they start anticipating this?

Nope.
I mean, if you space them correctly, since his turnips autocancel, there's that, but Link's grab is slow enough since it's a tether grab, that you can hit shield with turnips, barely, then land and jab, and he can't grab you.

 

[RAzul]

Lololol. Yeah this is definitely more useful that pocketing the stupid thing. Is there any move we have that's safe on shield in case they start anticipating this?

Retreating NAir but with the momentum of the gale boomerang, idk if we'd exactly be able to retreat.

 

[Darklink401]

Retreating NAir but with the momentum of the gale boomerang, idk if we'd exactly be able to retreat.

YOOOO

LETS GO ALL SUPER DASH BOOMERANG INSECT NET GRAB

 

[RAzul]

YOOOO

LETS GO ALL SUPER DASH BOOMERANG INSECT NET GRAB

You damn genius you! But, we need to be sparing of this because most like players wont just stand there lol. Ex. Bombs, FTilts,Up Bs and arrows. Soooo not as easy as it sounds unfortunately but def a good mixup from the nair, d/uair and fsmash.

 

[Darklink401]

You damn genius you! But, we need to be sparing of this because most like players wont just stand there lol. Ex. Bombs, FTilts,Up Bs and arrows. Soooo not as easy as it sounds unfortunately but def a good mixup from the nair, d/uair and fsmash.

We need to first examine how the tornadoslide affects Villager's options.

I'd imagine charging a dsmash would also be great.

 

[RAzul]

We need to first examine how the tornadoslide affects Villager's options.

I'd imagine charging a dsmash would also be great.

ah yes.....or, simply crouching? perhaps it may dodge a couple of things? and when close, hitting OoS or shielding into link if he doesn't grab and then Ftilt. There are as many options as there are variables lol. I've noticed that if done right, falling all the way off the edge when link is off stage and throwing it towards the stage can absolutely help sometime to sweep him off.

 

[Darklink401]

ah yes.....or, simply crouching? perhaps it may dodge a couple of things? and when close, hitting OoS or shielding into link if he doesn't grab and then Ftilt. There are as many options as there are variables lol. I've noticed that if done right, falling all the way off the edge when link is off stage and throwing it towards the stage can absolutely help sometime to sweep him off.

How would the boomerang return to Link if pocketed?

Because if it goes in a straight line, you coudl throw it behind you, roll or jump behind link, grab him, and bthrow him as the boomerang passes to make him go super far back.

 

[SoniCraft]

How would the boomerang return to Link if pocketed?

Because if it goes in a straight line, you coudl throw it behind you, roll or jump behind link, grab him, and bthrow him as the boomerang passes to make him go super far back.

That sounds too good to be true, and also really hard to actually pull off. But I'd be willing to test it.

 

[Darklink401]

That sounds too good to be true, and also really hard to actually pull off. But I'd be willing to test it.

Go ahead. Villager is a lot faster than Link and has better air game so he can probably make use of that returning boomerang more than Link.

I think the wind fromthe returned boomerang would also be greater, no?

 

[AceStarThe3rd]

To be honest, through almost all the matches I have fought with Sonic's, it is a ton easier of a matchup if you hang out towards the sides of the stage.

Bair and Fair absolutely prevent the spin dash and dash attack approaches, tree can really add a sort of intimidation factor, and Liod helps long range

What do you guys think?

 

[StanTheFan]

I agree. However, I think this applies to most of Villager's match-ups. Lloid, fair & bair are excellent tools that make Villager who he is. By playing the neutral safe and throwing out our projectiles and spacing tools, we are able to rack up damage.

Against Sonic specifically, this is hard to do, due to his fast movements and spin dash. If you can manage to keep your distance from Sonic, then you have a higher chance of winning for sure!

 

[Indigo Jeans]

@ AceStarThe3rd , I merged your thread into the preexisting MU thread. Check the stickies next time.

 

[Rockaphin]

I've been having the hardest time with Rosalina and Luma. It's really hard to space in this MU and Luma eats up a lot of Villager's great tools.

 

[Antonykun]

I've been having the hardest time with Rosalina and Luma. It's really hard to space in this MU and Luma eats up a lot of Villager's great tools.

In all my battles I just find it that Luma eats so many shots that it gets KOed and the you have only Rosalina.

 

[AceStarThe3rd]

I've been having the hardest time with Rosalina and Luma. It's really hard to space in this MU and Luma eats up a lot of Villager's great tools.

Legit, I've never had a problem with Rosalina. Maining her, I know the things that shut her down, and KO'ing Luma is so easy, its not funny.

Fair and Bair also hit her easy because of how tall she is, so spam that

 

[Rockaphin]

I usually don't see too many good Rosalina players online, and my location isn't the most tourny friendly, so I'm nearly limited to For Glory. I haven't played against a Rosalina in a while so I wonder if I'd fair better now.

Legit, I've never had a problem with Rosalina. Maining her, I know the things that shut her down, and KO'ing Luma is so easy, its not funny.

Fair and Bair also hit her easy because of how tall she is, so spam that

I'll try doing that more often. I have NO idea why I never thought of that.

 

[SpaceJell0]

I'm having a bit of trouble with rushdown Greninjas. Not too much trouble, but I feel he overwhelms my Villager at times.

 

[PigglyJuff]

Having some problems playing against mario, they always reflect lloids, slingshots, and lloid recoveries, which really shuts me down. Anybody know how to deal with mario's like this?

 

[CHOVI]

Having some problems playing against mario, they always reflect lloids, slingshots, and lloid recoveries, which really shuts me down. Anybody know how to deal with mario's like this?

Cape has some ending lag so you can predict and Nair/Dair

 

[Antonykun]

Having some problems playing against mario, they always reflect lloids, slingshots, and lloid recoveries, which really shuts me down. Anybody know how to deal with mario's like this?

Here we go again. Get close spam n/d/u-airs use Lloyd from a long distance and run with it. Chances are they are going to try to reflect Lloyd smack him with a turnip. Use these two strats a lot to send this message:
"Your Cape is worthless against me"
Also for the love of Tom Nook please don't recover with Lloyd ESPECIALLY against a reflector.
You are way better off using slingshot to cover your fall as you aim for the ledge.

 

[PigglyJuff]

Here we go again. Get close spam n/d/u-airs use Lloyd from a long distance and run with it. Chances are they are going to try to reflect Lloyd smack him with a turnip. Use these two strats a lot to send this message:
"Your Cape is worthless against me"

Thanks everyone, after reading more strats in this thread, I realized this mistake.

 

[JohnnyB]

They can't cape all of your slingshots. Throw out some empty airs to keep them guessing.

caping lloids out of habit isn't optimal play on their part and is punishable with dair,n air or down b if you have the axe. If there is a lloid and a villager coming at you caping the lloid only takes care of one of your problems. Bait the capes and punish accordingly.

Is there any reason you are using lloid recovery? I find it to be a fairly bad option unless my opponent is off stage with me and I'm high enough to make it back on to the stage without grabbing the ledge.

 

[PigglyJuff]

They can't cape all of your slingshots. Throw out some empty airs to keep them guessing.

caping lloids out of habit isn't optimal play on their part and is punishable with dair,n air or down b if you have the axe. If there is a lloid and a villager coming at you caping the lloid only takes care of one of your problems. Bait the capes and punish accordingly.

Is there any reason you are using lloid recovery? I find it to be a fairly bad option unless my opponent is off stage with me and I'm high enough to make it back on to the stage without grabbing the ledge.

The only reason I lloid recover is because I am at more risk of being spiked with balloons, especially at high percentages.

 

[JohnnyB]

Getting spiked is always a risk, but lloid rider is so incredibly punishable you are better off risking a spike. Recover as low as possible. If the stage is a floating platform you can even recover below the stage and then make your way to the ledge. If you are high enough to start off with you can throw out a lloid to help cover your recovery. And like I said in my last post lloid rider can help you bypass the ledge to recover, but It's far too situational to be of any use in most fights.

 

[Sonsa]

I'm sure it's been discussed before, I read it on the first page, but still unsure what to do about: Good MegaMan players. I played AdaptChance and some other MegaMen and pellets are really good, my shorthop fair and bair shots go right over his head, and I get overwhelmed with projectiles. If I wanna grow a tree I get crash bomb, metal blade (which goes through tree), crash bomb, metal blade, etc. When I try to go in, I get shield grabbed which is embarrassing.
He can be pretty easy to gimp, and while I'm not getting bodied or anything, I'm just not getting the job done and need new ways to get in. I could just counter with Rosalina maybe, but... I dunno, I don't wanna just give up on Villager. It's certainly easier to fight MegaMan on stages with platforms (cause bowling ball duh) but even then his up air is pretty strong and lots can come out pretty fast! Even if I pocket it, I still get blown up a bit.
Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling. Main thing: How do I approach Megaman especially on Final Destination/Omega stages?

 

[CHOVI]

I'm sure it's been discussed before, I read it on the first page, but still unsure what to do about: Good MegaMan players. I played AdaptChance and some other MegaMen and pellets are really good, my shorthop fair and bair shots go right over his head, and I get overwhelmed with projectiles. If I wanna grow a tree I get crash bomb, metal blade (which goes through tree), crash bomb, metal blade, etc. When I try to go in, I get shield grabbed which is embarrassing.
He can be pretty easy to gimp, and while I'm not getting bodied or anything, I'm just not getting the job done and need new ways to get in. I could just counter with Rosalina maybe, but... I dunno, I don't wanna just give up on Villager. It's certainly easier to fight MegaMan on stages with platforms (cause bowling ball duh) but even then his up air is pretty strong and lots can come out pretty fast! Even if I pocket it, I still get blown up a bit.
Sorry, I feel like I'm rambling. Main thing: How do I approach Megaman especially on Final Destination/Omega stages?

I've found you have to play really safe against megaman. Pocketing his bombs/blade isn't very useful so I think it's better to shield them and maybe try to hit him with lloid/fair. Also, if he uses a fully charged fsmash he's pretty much dead since it kills really early when pocketed...
Sorry I don't have many tips :/ kind of a noob here

 

[Sonsa]

I've found you have to play really safe against megaman. Pocketing his bombs/blade isn't very useful so I think it's better to shield them and maybe try to hit him with lloid/fair. Also, if he uses a fully charged fsmash he's pretty much dead since it kills really early when pocketed...
Sorry I don't have many tips :/ kind of a noob here

That's alright! But yeah, no good MegaMan really use F smash on me, and if they do I pocket that easy and kill when they roll or somethin. The Megamen Ive dealt with overwhelm me with projectiles (pellets, metal blade, crash bomb over and over until I try to approach) I launch gyroids and fair but he's too short to get hit with fair, and he just shield gyroid. Aw... I'd show you the video, but when trying to find it, it was in past broadcasts from the streamer AdaptChance, but in was Jan 16th and I guess stuff gets deleted if it's too old.

 

[elegyempty]

I've found you have to play really safe against megaman. Pocketing his bombs/blade isn't very useful so I think it's better to shield them and maybe try to hit him with lloid/fair. Also, if he uses a fully charged fsmash he's pretty much dead since it kills really early when pocketed...
Sorry I don't have many tips :/ kind of a noob here

Megaman mostly attacks laterally, so you can overcome his pressure at range by short-hopping Lloids, and stalling in the air over Metal Blade. Do it enough and you might bait out a charged fsmash in frustration. (Ledge camping will do it, too)

And almost everything MM sends out but pellets, Leaf Shield, and Rush are useful things to pocket.

Metal Blade -- really great projectile. Can be z-dropped for a lot of damage.
Bomb -- the upside to this is that you can throw them out faster than MM can. use it to force a shield at mid-range, follow up with a grab
U-air Tornado -- Nice follow up to u-air turnip juggling
D-air Fist -- Free spike

 

[Rockaphin]

I'm starting to kill more often with an aerial pivot axe. The end lag is a mess, but its start up is relatively fast.

I remember everyone saying that Villager will hard counter Megaman due to all his projectile moves, sadly, that doesn't seem to be the case against a good Megaman player. However, I think Villager can pocket all his aerials except Fair and Bair. I think the tree destroys the crash bomb on contact, my memory could be wrong though.

 

[Player-1]

I practice with probably one of the best megaman's in the country and we both agree that MU is pretty bad for Villager

 

[JohnnyB]

Maybe it's because I almost never play offline, but i find megaman's projectiles hard to pocket and even harder to use against him. Even if you get anything good, he still has all of his options and already knows what you pocketed. Sometimes makes me wish villager had a regular reflector as a custom for pocket.

Also the crash bomb vs tree thing is *not* in our favor. He can bomb the hell out of it and you can't even go near the tree without taking damage. Metal blades go through it too. The tree works wonders against spammy link players but it doesn't really help against megaman.

It almost seems like the best way to deal with him is to learn to play fox.

 

[Player-1]

What I've learned from the MM MU:

Use Lloid to block pellets, the projectiles you need to worry about are pellets, crash bomb, and metal blade. Meta blade go through lloid and crash bomb blow up on impact of lloid and can hurt you, however the core of MM's gameplay are the pellets which aren't worth pocketing. Metal blades and crash bombs are usually easy to react to. Lloid has more HP before it starts to move than when it does move, I know Lloid can take 2 hits from metal blade/crash bomb when it's not moving but when it starts to move it can only take 1. So my general strategy is to pull Lloid out to block the pellets and if he tries firing crash bomb/metal blade then I try to pocket it to protect lloid while it's moving. If you have something in your pocket already then I'll usually try to use that projectile to clank with any other incoming projectiles while the lloid is moving forward to protect it too and if the lloid blows before the projectile can protect it then the lloid just protected the pocketed projectile instead.

Nair is also really good in the MU since it hits frame 3 and lingers a lot, you can beat out the pellets with nair when you're close to him and move according to the situation (move back if you don't think it's safe with nair or forward if you think it is)

 

[Sonsa]

So it's not just me, MegaMan usually overwhelms Villager. Hmm... Well I've been learning Rosalina among others as counters and secondaries, but I don't wanna just give up on Villager.
I think I've said this before, but if Villager can get MM off stage, gimping can be sorta easy with MegaMan's usually predictable recovery. You could bowling ball, go for turnip spike, even sprinkle him with the watering can.
You can try and call lloid and run behind him to sorta give ya a shielded approach, if you pocket metal blade or crash bomb, I guess you should throw em back right away - or you can use the metal blade as a bait, throw it at the floor and punish when they try to get it.
Pellets are scary, so keep your space with lloid and slingshot. Hopefully you can frustrate them into shooting a forward smash, pocket and land that thats pretty much a free kill.
In this matchup..... I guess only set up the tree after a kill or something, only when there's free time. Megaman can metal blade crash bomb metal blade crash bomb it to death and also get some damage on you. I'd plant a seed and use the technique of watering it almost fully, so you can use the watering can for gimps and maybe catch Megaman with a tree sprout.

 

[THK]

vs Megaman is so obnoxious I would highly recommend having a secondary to deal with it.

 

[AnchorTea]

I also play Mega Man. I'm going to just say that the timber mind game makes me nervous, so does the loid mind game.

 

[Antonykun]

All righty I decided to make an uber beta MU chart for Villager based on all characters
Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


It's getting late for me, so tommorrow I'm going to add more thoughts on this list.
Feel free to question/argue any points we could even learn a thing or two.

 

[Sonsa]

All righty I decided to make an uber beta MU chart for Villager based on all characters
Somethings to note:
I tried making this super conservative, as I often see people complaining that their character loses to* insert top tier here* (not you guys though you're all awesome)
All of Villager's MUs are technically winnable but god are the +2/3 stacked against you

(Major Disadvantage 35:65 or less)

(Disadvantage 40:60)

(Minor Disadvantage 45:55)

(Arbitrarily Close To Even 50:50)
/ /
(Minor Advantage 55:45)

(Advantage 60:40)

(Major Advantage 65:35 or more)


(Not Sure)


It's getting late for me, so tommorrow I'm going to add more thoughts on this list.
Feel free to question/argue any points we could even learn a thing or two.

There's a lot to discuss here, but I guess I'd like to start with Ness. Sure Ive had some trouble, he can reflect things, but you can pocket them, and also you can pocket his recovery if youre quick enough! I'd give Villager a slight advantage.
Also I'm not sure what slight advantage DK has over Villager? If someone could enlighten me that'd be nice.
And I'm not so sure Villager is that hopeless against Sonic. He may be quick, but gyroids can interrupt his essential spinning and Villager can gimp Sonic's kinda predictable recovery lots of the time. Maybe slightly in Sonic's favor.

As for those matchups on the bottom! I really wanna talk about Duck Hunt Dog, cause that's a real interesting match-up! Two characters making walls that will hopefully break down the other's. You can pocket his can, but you don't wanna be around when it explodes, and DHD can just hurl another. DHD's recovery isn't the worst at dodging the bowling ball, and with a can in the way gimping him isn't as easy as other characters for sure. I think Duck Hunt is better up close...well then again, Im not sure. Villager's keeps people at a distance with slingshots and can get lucky and kill with turnips. DHD has a consistent spike, and the rest of his aerials are pretty good follow ups with good knockback. I dunno! Maybe someone else can chime in, but this matchup seems pretty even to me!

 

[JohnnyB]

Well my first criticism is that you listed Kirby twice =P.

Other than that I don't have a lot to say. I feel like we probably have an edge on game and watch ( I call him lame and watch in this game =/), mostly due to him not having the best options vs our zoning and not being able to use oil panic against us. He isn't the glass cannon he was in brawl, and is one of the most nerfed characters in my opinion. I don't think we have a huge edge though. He has great air mobiliy, low landing lag, good aerials and can be fairly slippery at times as a result.

 

[Antonykun]

All righty now its tommorow so lets explain why some of chars are where they are
Shiek: We are in the air than in the ground and she's a giant fly swatter. We specialize in edgeguards and her recovery is god tier. She lacks kills moves but guess what? So do we. I swear it's like she was designed to beat us.

Sanic: the dude is so fast and most ways to deal with him involve hard reads or ways of making you lose momentum like jabbing in place.

Yoshi: He never dies and makes edgeguarding him hell because the double jump super armor and egg toss moving him far. Also Yoshi's big weakness against shields is less pronounced against villager because Villager has bad OOS options.

@ Sonsa
Ness is disadvantaged not because of his reflector F-smash but because Villager is so bad against shields and Ness has bar none the best shield grab in the game just from reward alone. This aspect is so pronounced that it covers Ness's awful recover.

DK's main approach option (B-air) snuffs Lloyds and Slingshot and he has massive lmbs that both out range and out damage us. He's pretty manageable offstage though so its not CP worthy.

I already talked about Sonic

Duck Hunt is close to even but I'm still not sure

@ J JohnnyB Kirby's there twice cuz he loses that bad

You do bring up some nice points on GW err imma call @ Kofu for some assistance

 

[Kofu]

One comment on the full list is that I don't think Yoshi is that bad. It's similar to Sheik in that as long as we keep him off we do okay, but as soon as he gets on us the MU goes south fast, mainly because Villager isn't especially mobile.

About Game & Watch... I'm not completely sure myself because I haven't played the MU much. I'd place it as close to even, maybe slightly in Villager's favor, from what I've seen of it. Slingshots are a big irritation in trying to approach but they're not insurmountable because G&W is a relatively small target and he has respectable damage output. He can actually bucket Lloids if they explode passively and each one fills two levels (the resultant bucket is strong, it may be a OHKO but I don't know offhand). This is hard for him, though, since he'll usually have to go offstage to grab the explosion and Oil Panic's endlag is so bad he risks SDing. It's something to watch out for, though, and be careful if you like to send out a Lloid to cover your recovery. The hardest part of the MU for him will likely landing his kill moves, since they're all quite slow. USmash has invincibility frames, however, so be wary trying to DAir/NAir G&W when landing. Villager's recovery is very prone to being intercepted. He might not kill you outright (though it is possible between FAir and BAir stage spikes) but he can rack up some nice damage.

With customs on he gains some ability to camp himself thanks to Short-Order Chef (you can pocket the food but it'll do really bad damage lol) and inconsistent shield pressure with Chain Judge. He also gains two wicked OoS options with his Up-B customs which at least double the damage the default does. I don't know how much a passively exploding Pushy Lloid fills for Oil Panic, but if you take Extreme Balloon Trip he can bucket the explosions from the balloons.

Basically when I've played the MU it hasn't felt too terrible but he does have to work to play around slingshots and Lloid most of the time. I've also played it a handful of times as Villager and it didn't seem like an easy win. Take that for what you will.