Tournament Melee: How Sakurai will change how we play the game

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

The smash community needs to be revamped. In my opinion, and I want a big discussion on this, smash tournaments right now does not show how skilled you are in smash bros melee. This community changed the way this game should be played. It's a party game, with multiple characters, multiple stages, and multiple items to play with. Tournament have gotten rid of multiple stages, the ability to ban a stage and no items. I love playing smash, and I'll do it all night long with good people and good fun. I go to tournaments, i watch almost every video on smashboards, I like smash, so don't confuse me with someone that has a grudge. Just think of how this game should be played, how Sakurai wanted smash to be. He hates the way it's played in tournaments, and I have to agree with him.

In my opinion, Sakurai will make this game unbalanced. I'm saying unbalanced in a tourament way. I hope to god that he will make the final smash available at all times, with no chance to disable it. I hope that almost every stages will have some kind of random happenings that will confuse and try to influence the match. The ability to break the ground as we saw on the trailer, more of a f-zero map kind of feel, with the cars, moving stage, less ledges to grab. Do i believe that there will be a item disable list? Of course. In brawl, people will be good not becuase they can chain grab falco on FD, or shine spike someone coming back from a smash. People will be good based on interacting with the stage, being able to deal with whatever event takes place. To be able to judge, which stage they are best with (especially becuase the scenes from the trailer, it seems that each stage will have a different feel for it, to make it able for players to get acustom with a specific one to be able to counterpick).

I'm not one of those "Items should be allowed to be in tournaments" people, cause I believe that there are certain items, like stars, hearts, pokeballs and such that are too good for a skilled match. But then picking one character like shiek or peach, then being able to beat the best yoshi player in the world, a person who trains to try and find a way to beat a better character, it wasted and is like he put effort for nothing in a match where items are useless, people ban the stage hes best at, then only selecting 4-6 stages on random where its all the same, a flat multi platform, that yoshi is in a constant uphill battle. That's ****ed up.Sakurai will make brawl better this time, especially for those who want to ban everything random. This time, tournament won't be hosted by people that thing a party game can be made into a skilled fighting game like streetfighter or something, but it will be exiting, it will be fun to compete, and it will attract more people than any fighting game before us.

 

[Baha]

So you just want a sucky unfair game that is only fun if you are not competing ?

 

[The Hypnotist]

Interesting points...

I don't exactly get what you mean by this...

" But then picking one character like shiek or peach, then being able to beat the best yoshi player in the world, a person who trains to try and find a way to beat a better character, it wasted and is like he put effort for nothing in a match where items are useless, people ban the stage hes best at, then only selecting 4-6 stages on random where its all the same, a flat multi platform, that yoshi is in a constant uphill battle."

Can you elaborate a bit?

I completly disagree with your thoughts about the final smash. Why take away something (or give someone something they don't want) when it doesn't effect you. It's like a casual player saying take out wavedashing even though he just plays FFAs so it doens't even effect him.

I do agree having 4-6 stages on random is stupid, and a little boring. But hey, we'll have more this time. And if all stages moved, and crap then characters like DK, and Bowser would never be used. And Peach would rule the world. You see what I'm saying?

 

[Xanderous]

I completely agree with the TC and will back him up when it becomes necessary to do so.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I read like 3 sentenced. Anyway :

Go clean my bathroom. I wish this forum could be

 

[Xanderous]

Not all of his points make sense, but I agree that a skilled player can overcome unpredictability. That's what makes skill skill.

 

[gnosis]

Sakurai will make brawl better this time, especially for those who want to ban everything random. This time, tournament won't be hosted by people that thing a party game can be made into a skilled fighting game like streetfighter or something, but it will be exiting, it will be fun to compete, and it will attract more people than any fighting game before us.

Start hosting Melee tournaments like that.

See how far they get.

If my history of smash is correct, though, what you claim should happen has already been attempted. Based on my hazy memory of a thread outlining the Smash tournament scene, California/WC had items and few stage bans back in the day. Meanwhile, the East coast was FD only, 10-stock matches.

The current tournament scene is generally based off of MLG rules, which in turn came from MELEE-FC, which in turn came from compromises between the two coasts styles of play (not to say FC was the first tournament held with a more 'modern' ruleset). In other words, your system was already tried, and deemed unsatisfactory.

He hates the way it's played in tournaments, and I have to agree with him.

And where is your proof that Sakurai 'hates' how tournaments are played?

And as for the arguments that it takes skill for unpredictable or random elements - well, to a certain extent, yes, but strictly speaking, random elements only help out the less skilled player.

Let's take an example. Player A beat Player B nearly 100% of the time, but there is, say, a 10% chance that a bob-omb dropping into a smash would cause a loss for the player who hit it.

In 10 matches, ideally speaking, Player A would beat Player B 10 out of 10 times - unless we factor in that 10% random match decider. That leaves 1 match that is random; the misfortune would balance out about equally, and half the time Player A would win that 'luck-based' match, and half the time Player B would win the 'luck-based' match.

Thus (again, ideally; in actuality there would of course be more variance, but we're speaking over the long run here) in one 10 match set, we have Player A with his actual, skill-based win percentage (10/10, 100%), and in the next set, it would drop down to 9/10, 90%, averaging out to 95% for Player A and 5% for Player B.

Suddenly Player B is 'better', but with no increase in skill. That, in the long run, is the nature of all 'random' elements in a fighting game. That is why random elements are limited as much as possible. Randomness, in the long run, only helps out the lesser player.

 

[The Hypnotist]

Not all of his points make sense, but I agree that a skilled player can overcome unpredictability. That's what makes skill skill.

That's bullspit. If there are two very skilled players, then the unpredictability ruins everything. That's why I don't play pokemon netbattle as much, I was tired of the unpredictablity, the stupid critical attacks. It feels worse than when you get gimped.

 

[I.T.P]

i think that everything random should have an off button, and the game should be more balanced. Smash bros. is both a party game and a high skill demanding fighting game and should stay that way in brawl.

random occurrences and items are cool, but only as long as they're balanced in a minimal sort of way. or else they're pure fun and zero competitiveness. which is good at times but it'll ruin the tourney scene.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

In my opinion, Sakurai will make this game unbalanced.

We will create this game with balance in mind.

Owned.

I hope to god that he will make the final smash available at all times, with no chance to disable it.

WHY!? Seriously though, THAT'S GOING A BIT TOO FAR.
What's the point of giving a whole legion of fans something they don't want
JUST BECAUSE YOU feel like being a spiteful... thing!?
All it means is less money! What's the point of DELIBERATELY taking away that
extra degree of customization? For the sake of what? Making the game better?
Customization has NEVER made a game worse. Think on that.
There's always going to be people who DO want something, and people who don't.
WHY TURN AWAY HALF THOSE PEOPLE???? I STILL DON'T UNDERSTAND YOUR LOGIC!
Surely if you made the game you'd have almost half its potential market buy it.
That's why I'm glad you're not. You'd completely disregard the tournament scene,
even though they STILL pay to buy the game.

less ledges to grab..

NO, NO, NO, NO NO!!! THIS DOESN'T MAKE THE GAME FAIR AT ALL!!!
IT MAKES IT GAY! IT MAKES IT SO THAN ONLY KIRBY, PEACH AND JIGGLYPUFF ARE
TRULY WORTH USING!!!

I'm not one of those "Items should be allowed to be in tournaments" people,

You totally are...

Sakurai will make brawl better this time, especially for those who want to ban everything random.

FYI, that'd make the game WORSE for those who want to ban everything random.
Unless you were being sarcastic. In which case, you aren't very good at it.

 

[TaikaAli]

I understand your point but its stupid, I mean melee can be REALLY random if you pcik right stage and all items. But people dont like it when it reguires less skill.
And what would be point of having tournaments when even bad players can win, pros train a lot to be the best there is. And i played melee with items and stupid stages and 4 Free for all for 2 years because i like it like that back then. But when we actually started to train with my friends of course we want it to be more balance all over when we know how to Wavedash and do other advanced techs.

 

[Eaode]

Smash Tournaments dont show how skilled you are in Melee???

AND then you go on to argue about included **** loads of random factors in tournaments?? Money is on the line! Randomness takes away from the universal law that more skill = win. I don't want to lose the money I should have won because the scrub gets a Final smash when I have two stock left, and then I randomly smash an exploding crate FTL. Seriously. Tournaments - Balance = ********


Your logic is seriously ****ed up. You say he will make this game unbalanced... on purpose. Not leting us turn of Bacon and whatnot. If he makes the game unbalanced, 3 characters will be playable. Do you now what balance means?? And afterward you whine about how yoshi has an uphill batle etc etc etc. That's because YOSHI SUCKS. Putting tons of random elements that make scrubs win occasionally doesn't make Yoshi any better.


And about the stages.... Yea, there are only 4-6 ON RANDOM. These stages are ON RANDOM because they pretty much give equal playing ground for most characters. There are still a bunch more stages you can play. Only the really unfair ones (the ones that suck ***) are banned.



You can make the claim that you know wat Sakurai said, and you can argue tha youknow a lot about smash and play with good people etc etc etc, but none of these things saves you from a scrub mentality.




*END RANT*

 

[Klowne]

There's no proof that brawl isn't "meant to be played" competitively. But seriously, just as long as they give us a few stages that don't go out of their way to disrupt and kill players, both the competitive people and the casual people should have a great game.

 

[CartooN]

I think your very brave to say something like that in front of the sort of people that use this forum.
I admire that.

ANd I also totally agree, before heard about all these "techs" and banned stages, I just used to play smash anywhere, with anyone and any style. Any rules, it was fun and because everything was avlible to everyone, it was fair.
Then I heard about how serious all the tourney style stuff was for this game. I learnt how to suffle and wave dash and what not. And sure, it was fun, but something was lost on the way. I think brawl should be great for everyone. That way, it will come down to whos actually skilled, rather than who knows the skills.

(Sorry if that wasnt what you were getting it, but thats my opinion down as well)

 

[Eaode]

I think your very brave to say something like that in front of the sort of people that use this forum.
I admire that.

ANd I also totally agree, before heard about all these "techs" and banned stages, I just used to play smash anywhere, with anyone and any style. Any rules, it was fun and because everything was avlible to everyone, it was fair.
Then I heard about how serious all the tourney style stuff was for this game. I learnt how to suffle and wave dash and what not. And sure, it was fun, but something was lost on the way. I think brawl should be great for everyone. That way, it will come down to whos actually skilled, rather than who knows the skills.

(Sorry if that wasnt what you were getting it, but thats my opinion down as well)

Huh? I don't see what you're getting at.... You played with items on on all stages with all characters. Yeah, I used to do that too when I was noob. But it wasn't fair... we just weren't good enough at the gam to take advantage of it (eg. teching in Hyrule temple/Corneria)

 

[CartooN]

Huh? I don't see what you're getting at.... You played with items on on all stages with all characters. Yeah, I used to do that too when I was noob. But it wasn't fair... we just weren't good enough at the gam to take advantage of it (eg. teching in Hyrule temple/Corneria)

Oh no I agree, touney wise for melee I think that stages should be ban and all. But playing tourement style can be at the cost of fun.

 

[Tsuki]

Wow great a Beta Tester o_o
Or how did you know all that stuff?

Why do people only predict bad things? Are you all some sort of pessimists?
What if they make it like Starcraft where you can open a game with youre own rules and other people can join? So casual players can play wih items on fun-stages and competive playerscan open a 1on1 without items on Battlefield.
I dont think there will be a big problem in making this. Hope we will know more on wednesday

 

[petre]

Oh no I agree, touney wise for melee I think that stages should be ban and all. But playing tourement style can be at the cost of fun.

CAN be. only if you dont like playing smash competitively. and if you dont like it, then why are you doing it? i personally find playing smash in tournaments very fun. sure, every once in a while, its fun to break out some super sudden death, but for the most part, i like standard tourney rules.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

CAN be. only if you dont like playing smash competitively. and if you dont like it, then why are you doing it? i personally find playing smash in tournaments very fun. sure, every once in a while, its fun to break out some super sudden death, but for the most part, i like standard tourney rules.

Same. I used to play ffa melee, items on for awhile then off. But before I was into competitive play I would get bored of melee in like 2-3 hours.

As it currently stands I play by all the tourney rules with my friends aside from the timer thing because I find it annoying and we obviously arent gonna use stall glitches.

But playing in this fashion I started doing exactly one year ago now and since then I have met up with my crew 1 or two times a week and everytime we do it involves 6 hours or more of the game and I never get bored of it.

So it depends who you are, but if you're the kind of smasher who is competitive like myself and want to see how you stack up and most of all play better smashers to learn how to get better than the tournmaent scene is for you.

If you just like the crazy fun nature of smash minus all the details and metagame / counterpick theory or whatever then maybe casual play is for you. Unfortunatly for players like me, there are a large number of casual players who despite thier choice in playing a non competitive version of SSBM still feel the need to complain at me and at the rest of the community for their lack of skill which they will blame on a few techniuqes they have trouble with, most commonly the wavedash.

Which is just mindboggling because they state that the wavedash is useless in some posts or mention Aniki a bunch, but also chalk up why they lose as a result of ''wavedashers'' playing ''cheap''

Stop being scrubs plz.

 

[BentoBox]

When I play ppl that aren't as good as me, with or without items, I win 100%.

The exploding crates and bomb-omb scenarios are always the first brought up in these kinds of threads but what if those truly overpowering items were checked off?

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

When I play ppl that aren't as good as me, with or without items, I win 100%.

The exploding crates and bomb-omb scenarios are always the first brought up in these kinds of threads but what if those truly overpowering items were checked off?

Thats what I used to do in ssb64. All the stupid items turned off and the rule was you could only throw items, no usage

And again, if YOU like that style than find some people that share your views and have a smashfest, but the tournament scene will go its own way. We dont even know where this time with brawl but Im guessing items are going to be off like they are in both competitive ssb and ssbm.

 

[greenblob]

Items still give an advantage, and they're random. Random advantages = bad.

 

[Klowne]

It's irksome how nintendo has this whole "RANDOM = FUN" mindset on everything. It's almost like they expect us to be happy when an unpreventable factor comes into play and unbalances the current game. Okay perhaps it's funny the first time it happens, but the novelty really wears off fast IMO.

Of course one would tell me to just turn items off and stop complaining, but the very infuriating thing about it is that some items aren't based around luck, HOWEVER turning them on at all, even after disallowing the other unfair items, will still subject you to the rediculously luck-based exploding barrels and capsules. It makes me feel as if nintendo really does have something against me for playing without their random unbalancing.

 

[Adi]

I don't even see what the argument is here beyond the fact that "it's more fun to play with items therefore we should use it in tournaments"...

Seriously, if you want to use it so bad, no one is stopping you, just don't bug players who play like the rest of the competitive community.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

It's irksome how nintendo has this whole "RANDOM = FUN"

L3ts play mario party!!111!!

seriously though in mario party once I was losing but then I got a challenge minigame that was ''pull one of 3 strings'' and I took my friends star ftw.

 

[BigRick]

It's irksome how nintendo has this whole "RANDOM = FUN" mindset on everything. It's almost like they expect us to be happy when an unpreventable factor comes into play and unbalances the current game. Okay perhaps it's funny the first time it happens, but the novelty really wears off fast IMO.

Of course one would tell me to just turn items off and stop complaining, but the very infuriating thing about it is that some items aren't based around luck, HOWEVER turning them on at all, even after disallowing the other unfair items, will still subject you to the rediculously luck-based exploding barrels and capsules. It makes me feel as if nintendo really does have something against me for playing without their random unbalancing.

Well, Random can be fun in some instances, because it adds a lot of unpredictability in the game. 4 player ffa with items on ends up being a very funny experience with plenty of WTF moments.

However, Random is very bad for competitive play, skill should be the most determining factor...

For items to be more suited for competition, there should be no random stuff (like the 30% exploding capsules), and fixed item spawn spots, so that strategies can get built around it, like camping for items.

 

[Got Blood?]

Shouldn't all the things your talking about be played in just fun matches? I don't see why you need to change the face of competitive smash for that.

 

[2nd Stamp]

I actually agree. I think the game is ment for fun, and having competitions should also involve fun. Skill.. And also fun. I don't think the plans of the game were to ban items from tourneys.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

I don't think the plans of the game were to ban items from tourneys.

I don't think the plans of the game involved serious tourneys to begin with, especially with stages like hyrule temple and items like the hammer / warp star.

Look, will all you ''casual'' players (bordering on scrubs at this point with this utterly ridiculous debate) just make your own form of competitive play, then?

the players with actual smash skill will always dictate the tournament scene, so the people that need an item to appear to help them win should either stick to casual matches with their likeminded friends or...

MAKE YOUR OWN FRIGGIN' TOURNAMENT W/ ITEMS AND SEE WHO SHOWS UP.

 

[SSJ4Kazuki]

Mario party infuriates me beyond compare.

I frequently lose to people half my age who can barely read the text that comes up.

Then there's this stage called "Fair square". Oh the irony.

It's like I stand on a space, and then the game takes MY star away.
Seeing as I was the only person with a star, it was as if the game was deciding AT RANDOM
who gets my star.

The day Smash Bros becomes as favouring of n00bs as this is the day I give up animation.

" Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive" - Takalth

^^Pure genius.

 

[Dylan_Tnga]

Mario party infuriates me beyond compare.

I frequently lose to people half my age who can barely read the text that comes up.

Then there's this stage called "Fair square". Oh the irony.

It's like I stand on a space, and then the game takes MY star away.
Seeing as I was the only person with a star, it was as if the game was deciding AT RANDOM
who gets my star.

Hahahaha, I dont get frustrated because im one of those people who suck at MP My friend wins all the mini games so he usually wins but I love how some random n00b luck can win you the whole game.

If smash was like that, then smash would suck.

The day Smash Bros becomes as favouring of n00bs as this is the day I give up animation.

" Competitive players aren't requesting changes that ruin casual play, so why should casual players suggest changes that ruin competitive" - Takalth

^^Pure genius.

Agreed!

 

[Sweetness]

So what's the benefit from having less ways to play the game? I don't get why anyone would want deprive someone else the way they play the game. What's the big deal? The only reason that tournaments like that would be popular is that people like it. And you like how you play, right? What would you think if Sakurai suddenly decided that Smash Bros is too random and got rid of all the random levels and final smash? Unlikely yes, but still it's same way with competitive play.

Aaah crap, SSJ4Kazuki got to it before I did ;_;.

 

[wuthefwasthat]

i think sakurai will make the game fun competitively.
the competitive community is huge, and getting bigger really quickly.
why? because it's MORE FUN.

hopefully it's less random. i hate GAW 9's, luigi misfires, peach bomb-ombs

 

[BigRick]

i think sakurai will make the game fun competitively.
the competitive community is huge, and getting bigger really quickly.
why? because it's MORE FUN.

actually it's not true... competitive gaming is only for real gamers, people that truly enjoy fighting games

The only reason why SSBM's competitive community is bigger than those of other fighting games is that SSBM simply has more players.

Don't forget that, for every guy that knows advanced stuff... there's 9 that don't know or are just scrubs

 

[SLAYERCoLdKiLr]

Ok guys, you all have some good points, and I like the way this discussion is going. Some of you got off topic and i gotta explain it now before this **** gets a little out of hand.

I didn't mean to say that all items should be used for brawl tournaments. I'm almost positive that there was going to have an items list to turn off, but I said only the final smash. I'm totally with everyone for items and tournament discussions. I dont feel that allowing them for tournaments show any skill, so try not to make it seem Like i do. I said the final smash only.

Second, guys, for the love of god I'm not a noob, and theres no way in hell that right now you can prove that you're better than me, or that im better than you. So let's just all agree that were on the same level...except if PC or m2k or someone starts to comment on this thread. Start treating this **** with a bit of maturity.

Third, someone posted that they hated game n watches 9 and luigis missfire. You're right. There so ****ing overpowered, you should talk to someone about getting those characters banned from tournaments. And about peaches bombs, stiches, knockbacks, whatever. So you're saying that you hate it when that happens and it sounds like you also hate peach. That is horrible logic and you should shoot yourself for bringing that **** in to this discussion. Smash is FILLED with random events. Phantoms, invisible walls, things that you can't control but happen. It happens to everyone, and sometimes peach pulls a stich and you don't notice it until your dead at 0%. It sucks, deal with it or be called a *****.

And Eaode, **** you, you are the reason some of the smash community sucks. Not in skill level, but in personal contact. You are probably a ***** to hang with, and a ***** to talk to. I dont care if you call me a scrub, i dont give a **** if you think im a ****** for saying what I am, but im posting an opinion, your taking this **** farther than it should. Talk to M2K about this topic, and ask him if he cares about what stage hes on, what mode your in. Hes the type of kid that knows this **** inside and out and will **** anyone who plays this game in the ***. That is a kid who plays this game too much, but you know what, money is on the line and he makes it.

 

[SGX]

Almost every fighting game has a number of events that can seem "random" and there's nothing you can do about it.

However, the purpose of removing items, stupid stages, etc. is to eliminate as much randomness as possible to allow the players to demonstrate their actual skill.

Even if Sakurai wasn't particularly fond of hardcore tournament style play, (which I've never seen him comment on it, show me proof plz) He has to realize that a sizable community for it exists, and it would be stupid to alienate said community.

 

[SmashChu]

You made the most sence in this paragraph

I'm not one of those "Items should be allowed to be in tournaments" people, cause I believe that there are certain items, like stars, hearts, pokeballs and such that are too good for a skilled match. But then picking one character like shiek or peach, then being able to beat the best yoshi player in the world, a person who trains to try and find a way to beat a better character, it wasted and is like he put effort for nothing in a match where items are useless, people ban the stage hes best at, then only selecting 4-6 stages on random where its all the same, a flat multi platform, that yoshi is in a constant uphill battle. That's ****ed up.Sakurai will make brawl better this time, especially for those who want to ban everything random. This time, tournament won't be hosted by people that thing a party game can be made into a skilled fighting game like streetfighter or something, but it will be exiting, it will be fun to compete, and it will attract more people than any fighting game before us.

The main problem I have with tournamants are they aren't as fun as playing with friends. It's fun, but 1v1s can get very tired. The few courses. And items make the game the frantic fun fest it is.

But, overall, if you don't like it, you don't have to play. Keep in mind that the porfessional croud is small compaired to all those who play it for fun. True smash is just playing with your pals, having fun.

I must say what you segested isn't going to help. You should be able to turn off Smash Balls, some courses need predictability, and ledges are a good thing. If you really want a change then remove the glitches(L-cancveling and wavedashing). The you'll see a shift in how the game is played, and perhaps a more interesting one. One that is based more on timing, persision and stright character knowledge, rather trying to master some fancy glitch.

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

This thread has a lot of hostility and passive attacts between members. Live and let live people, live and let live.

 

[SliK]

This thread has a lot of hostility and passive attacts between members. Live and let live people, live and let live.

**** YOU!! lol jk

 

[Osi]

I'd like to start off by saying this post is in no way an attack on the OP.

Items being in tourney play add an element of luck that should not be in there. I think melee has a few things that made tournament play a bit.... well lets say knowledge could punish skill. Wavedash, chainthrow, and cancels to name a few reasons why I make that statement. Don't get me wrong, I love that about smash. It makes the game more about instinct and button speed than strategy at times though.

No game is balanced unless it's only clones or one character btw, so don't hold your breath.

Hopefully it is fun, that is all I want. The fact is just like with melee ppl will learn how to use the system to win. That is what pro playing is all about, to be the best. There are errors in every game, and I have no doubt advance techs will still set pros on another level in brawl. Lets just hope villains get a better end of the deal this time.