I was not aware of the fact that when Fire Emblem came over seas the earlier games of the series ceased to exist.
No, the earlier games didn't cease to exist. They never existed at all outside Japan.
The old games are still popular and important inside Japan, but internationally released games like PoR are popular and important inside Japan AND the rest of the world. That means that PoR is as important (if not more so) than the original Fire Emblem.
It's a worldwide series now, but it still got its start in Japan. You can't just ignore its long history for convenience. Nintendo doesn't even ignore its Japanese history.
Fire Emblem's past has hardly been ignored, since both Marth and Roy were immortalized in Super Smash Bros Melee.
PoR is a game well received in both Japan and North America. Including FE reps from this game would appeal to Fire Emblem fans in Japan, North America and around the world.
I'm not sure what you mean by "if Marth's game was as popular as you think, don't you think Sigurd would have relieved more than one nomination?" Please elaborate...
My apologies. I was under the mistaken impression that both Marth and Sigurd are from the same game. A little research proved that I was sorely mistaken, as Sigurd is actually from FE 4. My point (as inaccurate as it was) was that even with Marth not on the poll, the relative lack of support for Sigurd showed that Marth’s game is no longer as popular as it once was.
However, while the poll doesn’t register the popularity of Marth it does show that Ike is the most popular FE lord currently (at least from the nominations we know about from the e-mails that Sakurai revealed to the public) other than Marth, and the high number of other characters mentioned from PoR indicates that this game is more popular in Japan right now than the older games.
Sakurai didn't just post letters and suggestions he thought were interesting, he merely responded to the e-mails he wanted to, for various reasons. He never tallied them up by how many times they were mentioned in his mailbag, that was us fans who did such. And from it, yes Ike was the most requested, but that still means nothing compared to Marth, who had no suggestions because no character from SSB/SSBM was ever mentioned. I'm not talking about PoR compared to the rest of the games. FE1/3 didn't have very many interesting characters to pick from, other than Marth, who is clearly seen to be the face of the franchise, which was why he was so requested for over the more popular Sigurd in the first place.
Your point about Marth is valid. I should have researched my facts before claiming than Sigurd’s apparent lack of support reflected poorly on Marth’s. My bad.
However, while nothing is definitive, I suspect that the number of nominations for Path of Radiance characters reflects a greater support for new FE characters than old ones. That bodes well for newer characters like Ike, the Black Knight & Miciaiah and not well for Marth, Roy and Sigurd. Of course, I may be reading into this too much.
Regardless, I’ve heard GenG’s predictions for the FE representatives in Brawl, but I’d like to here what characters you think stand a good chance, Green Mamba. In case you missed it, my predictions (and the reasoning behind them) can be found back on page 8:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=97281&page=8
Well, let's remove Bowser, Ness, Kirby, Pichu, Mewtwo, Zelda, DK and Yoshi because they are bad characters. Of course, Nintendo won't never do it, other than perfomance in Smash (which could be tweaked just adjusting the values of the character) the characters have a story, like Marth. Marth is story of the franchise, was included in Melee and was well received in the US, made the people get interest in the games and then Nintendo released them here. As you said, you don't know what future holds: Maybe IS tomorrow announce a FE remake for the DS with enhanced graphics with a planned worlwide release, just like Square started re-releasing the Final Fantasy 5 years after FF7, and all the franchise titles are now worldwide (even characters appearing in some games, like the ninja or the black wizard from FF1 in Mario Basketball).
You completely misunderstand my point. You can’t argue that a character should return based on the fact that they are powerful, or that they are fun to play as, or that a lot of good players main as them. This is because any character can be fun and popular as a character in Smash, even Pichu, if were programmed that way. Since we don’t know how much these characters will change in the transition to Brawl, its impossible to say that they will be as powerful or as popular.
Therefore, whether or not a character should appear is completely contingent on their importance to their respective series. If Marth returns (which he might) it will because he is important enough in the Fire Emblem series to justify him representing his series in Smash Bros. It is irrelevant how popular or powerful he was in Melee, because this could easily change – depending on how the developers choose to program him into the game. The examples you used (Bowser, Kirby, etc) will return because of their importance to the Mario and Kirby series, not because of how many people play as them in Melee.
Marth is aknowledged by almost the 6 millions players who bought Melee worldwide as THE Fire Emblem character, who has a special fighting style which couldn't be taken by Ike (Ike isn't Marth), who is liked by people (just like the Ness players keep playing with him) worldwide. Even the FE Team emblem in Melee is the Falchion, picturing how important is Marth to the series.
Pichu isn't even important to Pokémon, is a pre-evolution, which are the most unworthy thing that ever happened in the franchise. They just have marketing purposes. Marth is far from that.
Marth WAS acknowledged. Past tense. Marth was certainly popular back in the day, but since his role in the FE games since then has been none existent I could see more current FE characters taking his place.
However is Sakurai who ultimately decides which characters and in and I believe he knows Marth is one of the favorites (he even said: "I don't think many Japan characters should be used again but the Fire Emblem ones may stay, even a black guy gave me thanks for adding Roy in Melee even when Roy was a Japan only character"), who is again important to his franchise, and important to the fighting series he is directing. He don't want to deceive Marth's fans.
I think the key word in that sentence was “may”. It is true that Marth may still return, but until he is actually confirmed I will remain skeptical. Obviously, Sakurai doesn’t want to disappoint Marth fans, but I still think that he is more concerned about making the game's character roster as diverse as possible, while still including the most important characters from each series. The way I see it, this can be accomplished by including Ike and not Marth.
The same could be said about any character. Most people aren't tourney players and like playing with Marth because they like the character, don't throw away that common fact.
Exactly. Because character popularity is based on their moveset, and not the character itself, the only way to determine whether a character is likely to return is to look at the games he has appeared in.
Marth doesn't have any reason to be cut. Doc is a lame (in character) clone, Pichu is a lame clone, Young Link too. He still holds water as a FE representative and as a Nintendo star, as not many lords act and fight like him, so he adds a glamour and style that Ike doesn't. Sheik is likely to be replaced by Zamus, a ninja-esque character with tight clothes, fast moves and a whip. I'll shut myself when I see a Marth-esque character, which I only see happening with Sigurd, but putting Sigurd in would be like starting from scratch, when Marth is already an established character.
Smash Bros. is about Nintendo all-time stars fighting together, not just the most recent ones.
You may find Doc and Young Link lame, but head over to the Melee discussion forum and you’ll discover that they both have a dedicated following. Even Pichu has his fans, as incredible as it may seem. Personally, Dr. Mario is my favorite playable character in the Smash series to date. Both Dr. Mario and Young Link are more popular in Melee than Roy, so why do you believe that he will return?
However, I realize that in all likelihood Doc will be cut and the former Young Link will be replaced by the new Young Link from Wind Waker. I would like to see them both return in their current forms, but at the expense of more recent characters in the Mario and Zelda series? No way.
Also, I completely agree about Zamus being Sheik’s replacement (may she rest in pieces) but I fail to comprehend how you could see Zamus and Sheik as more similar than Marth and Ike. Sheik and Zamus both have blond hair, skin tight clothing, ninja-like attacks and whip like weapons. Marth and Ike both have blue hair, capes, and fight will large one handed swords. While Samus and Sheik are different genders (Samus is very much female while Sheik is some twisted combination of a male and a female) and come from different series and genres - Marth and Ike are cut from the same cloth, so to speak.
I know the arguments that the two have unique fighting styles. Ike is supposedly slower, (although I don’t remember him being at all sluggish in PoR) and Marth uses vertical slashes as opposed to Ike using horizontal slashes. But I would like to hear one of Marth’s attacks from his Melee moveset that Ike couldn’t do in Brawl.
It's not like I want another Melee, but if the game uses the same engine and even gave the possibilty to play with the GC pads it means that the game is more likely to retain most features that made Melee great, from gameplay to characters which "execute" that gameplay.
To my knowledge, Brawl has an entirely new engine. However, if most of the characters are guaranteed to return, why have a completely new trailer to announce Fox’s return?
The answer: no character is safe. I’ll bet that Sakurai will cut as many characters as he can get away with to make room for more new characters. Remember, Brawl could have as few as 35 characters. Unless a significant number of characters from Melee’s roster are cut, Brawl is going to be nearly identical to Melee.
But Marth, other than a good fighter, is cool and makes people be interested on him. The way he moves, the Japanese accent (I've seen myself people not fond of Smash asking how cool he is and from what game he's from, instead playing with Pikachu or Mario), and in Japan he was requested not for having a great character, but to play as Marth, the Fire Emblem lord, just like people requested Pit or Metaknight.
Stating that something is cool is a personal opinion, not an objective fact. Sure some people find him cool. Others, like myself, don’t consider him to be very cool at all. If he wasn’t so powerful, he would be as unpopular in Melee as Roy.
Again importance to he series is all that matters.
The same could happen with Marth, why not. It could happen with any, ANY character, and I don't think Marth is gonna to be nerfed that hard since the developers are guys who have been playing Smash a lot and know what are they doing.
And, many people haven't played Eartbhound, but from a Smash perspective Ness is already part of the cast. Marth is too.
My point was that just becasue Marth is one of the most popular characters in Melee now, he might not be in Brawl. In the end, his popularity among Fire embelm fans is all that matters, and in most of the world, Ike's game is more popular.
I enjoy playing with Marth. I main Falcon even when I like the Fire Emblem franchise, because Falcon's horizontal distance, speed and combo ability are just awesome. There may be people that picks characters just to play because they like how they were portrayed in Smash, not neccesarily their favorite in looks and franchise.
I don't think characters are made to be played just by the fans. Star Fox fans may have a better grip on Marth that Fox for example, that comes to tastes.
There is nothing wrong with picking up a character just because you like their portrayal in Melee (I main as Dr. Mario, yet I’ve never once played his games) it’s just not a reason to expect them to return. As we know from Fox in Brawl, we don’t know how these characters will be changed or if they will still be popular when they return. Only the character’s importance in their own series matters.
Regardless, Brawl will certainly have a wide range of characters that appeal to everyone, even if currently popular characters like Marth are cut.
Marth is in common ground. Smash Bros Melee is a common ground! And I think there are way more Melee players who know about Marth than all the FE players in US and Europe combined.
Yes, but Marth was put in Melee to represent Fire Emblem fans. Whether or not he returns depends on whether he still represents Fire Emblem’s fanbase.
Again, most of Marth’s "fans" in North America and Europe will remember him as “the dude with the freakin’ big sword” not as the face of Fire Emblem.
Importance doesn't have anything to do with the worldwide releases. More people played FE1-3 in Japan that the people who played the lame Fire Emblem (GBA) in the US. In Japan, Marth is known as the poster boy, and was aknowledged by US and Europeans players. Marth is way more important than Ike in both past and present, and appearing in Melee and being such a popular character (in the Smash and Fire Emblem community, I mean the GOOD Fire Emblem community who post in N-sider, gamefaqs and any FE related forum over US and Europe) makes him more important than Ike. Everybody who knows Fire Emblem, knows Marth, just for appearing in SSBM or just by searching info about who he is.
I wish someone would find sales data to settle this argument one way or another, but I’d be willing to bet that the worldwide sales (not just from the U.S., but everywhere – including Japan) of Fire emblem GBA sold more than the original FE did, since that game was released only to the Japanese.
Yeah, Marth certainly WAS the poster boy for his franchise, but I suspect his superstar status has dimished somewhat in recent years due to his absence from the series that made him famous in the first place. Since Ike is still appearing in FE games, I would argue he is currently more important in the series than Marth is.
Once again, Marth’s popularity in Smash does not indicate an appreciation for the character’s role as a Fire Emblem lord in NA and Europe. Just that Smash players enjoy playing with characters with powerful sword attacks. Ike can fill that void quite nicely.
They can make alternate outfits.
Maybe, but including both version of Ike would require more than a costume change. GoD Ike is older and taller. Still, its possible.
Not anybody can pull out the "Ken combos" which are Marth's more powerful weapon, and the rest of moves, if avoided (the smash is easy to see it coming), can be counterattacked. He isn't broken, pick a Marth and use him in a tourney, and see if you can keep up with the Foxes, Falcos and Falcons. Marth is a character extremely reflexive and technical, more than people tend to believe because they lost to a friend who just spams fsmashes (not know if it's your case, but people who loses agains a fsmash spammer aren't good players).
Some Marth players are better than others, but if you think he isn’t broken you should try playing against an equally skilled Marth player with a non high tier character. You can still win, but if you can't make a single mistake or you're toast.
I have nothing against Marth players. My point is just that Marth gives any player an advantage that most characters don’t have. Here’s hoping that Brawl will be more a more balanced game than melee was.
Is still possible, as is still possible for Megaman and Viewtiful Joe to appear in the game. Micaiah couldn't be possibly requested (since that game came after the poll) and I think people want FE characters they know, from Marth to Ike. However a trophy could be nice to not take the place of the requested FE characters over the world.
Ture, Miciaiah wasn’t included on the poll so I agree she is less likely than some of the FE characters who were (ie: Ike and the Black Knight). But I still thinks she has a shot as the new Roy (a character who can increase sales for their game) and because there are very few magic users would have the potential to become characters in Brawl, making her a potenially unique charcater addition.
I think originals cut, if not replaced, are a loss. As a Pichu player you can pick Pichu. As a Young Link player, you can pick Link. But as a Marth player... what can I do? I don't think Ike would play as Marth, that would be really lame. Marth is enough important to not to be cut.
I know you don’t agree with this, but as a Marth player you could pick up Ike.
Hear me out: they made Ganondorf a Captain Falcon clone due to time constraints. Would it be so impossible for them to give Ike Marth’s moveset? They could make him a bit slower, make his B move a ranged attack and tweak his sword slashes to look more like Ike’s fighting style.
Preferable? Not for everyone. Possible? Yes.
There isn't many interesting FE characters other than Ike. Roy was included maybe because Sakurai thought Marth was enough as a old FE representative, but I won't gamble about Marth being cut by the likes of Micaiah (don't know if the players may like her) or the Black Knight (minor villain with clone tendencies). The loss would be higher than the winnings.
If Miciaiah were included, it wouldn’t be because she is popular now, but to sell copies of GoD. For all I know, she could wind up being the most hated lord in FE history. Her potential moveset in Brawl would likely appeal to different players than the current Marth and Roy fans, but she would certainly have the potential to be a unique addition tom the roster.
As for the Balck Knight, I think we’ve established that his return in GoD makes him one of the most important villains in the series. Also, the fact that he would be a Roy-esque clone actually works in his favor. Clones can be included in a fraction of the development time, and I can’t think of any character better suited to be Ike’s clone.
At any rate, whether the losses outweigh the gains depends on what games and characters you prefer.
His popularity is worldwide. Smash players, from experts to noobs, aknowledge Marth. Unlike Ike, which is only popular in the cult FE communities.
What do you mean by “acknowledge” Marth? Acknowledge his existence? The fact that he is a good character?
If Marth does return, it will be to represent the “cult FE communities”. These are the loyal gamers who actually buy Fire Emblem games. As the most popular Fire Emblem lord among Fire Emblem fans, Ike is better suited to represent the Fire Emblem series.
But he's still the face, Ike won't change that. Marth is more way popular than Ike, combining all the "fronts" were Marth have appeared.
A decade ago, maybe. I doubt most of the people in the world eagerly awaiting the release of Goddess of Dawn still think of Marth whenever they think of the FE series.
I’ve never really visited any Fire Embelm fansites, but my guess is that if this were a Fire Emblem site rather than Smash Boards, there would be more support for my proposal to ditch Marth in favor of new FE characters. (Obviously this would depend on what FE site I went to, but you get my point.)
I think Smash would sell more if Marth were included and Ike not, since most Smash players know Marth over Ike and would grieve over his loss, unlike Ike which is only known for the 400k players they played PoR and maybe don't like Smash Bros. Is another way to put that.
I guess this is where we disagree. I don’t see the inclusion of Marth as a factor that will greatly affect the sales of Brawl one way or another. I can’t imagine any Smash fan actually choosing not to purchase Brawl just because of one character. For players who love fast sword fighters, they can play as Metaknight, Pit or Ike.
I don’t think that the handful of Marth fans who would not buy the game weigh very heavily on the conscious of Sakurai. He will make the Brawl the best game possible, however he chooses to do so. Regardless, this game is going to make a metric butload of cash for the Nintendo Empire one way or another.
But he it's confirmed to be a Melee update. More characters, more stages, wifi, same gameplay. How isn't that an update? Cutting loved characters isn't updating.
More characters? Yes, but he confirmed that some characters will definitely be cut to make room for new ones. How many and which ones remains to be seen. The more characters are cut, the more new ones can be included so I say this is a good thing. I've played as the Melee crew enough for one life time. Its time for a change.
More stages? Yeah, but don’t expect all the old ones to return either.
Same gameplay? Not quite. New moves (like super smash attacks and crawling) have been added. Also, characters like Kirby seem to have been made far more powerful and characters like Fox have been drastically changed (notice how he always has his gun drawn now?). In addition, from the look of the trailer, the game play has been slowed somewhat, making it more of a game of strategy (like SSB 64) than Melee which rewards reflexes over cunning.
In short, the game will be just as awesome, but a different kind of awesome. A completely new game of Smash Bros, but just as deep and addictive as ever.
Is almost a launch title, so in a few months it will surpass PoR in sales and reach at least 500k in a couple years.
