ZMUSD? *Hops off once again*
Spot dodging GETS you up smashed. Because the Fox will charge it an extra second and then you are definitely dead.
Look, what you're saying is all situational. It's all, as you'd say mindgames. Every character has mindgames. If you spotdodge I can charge a Usmash for 1 second too and GG. That sort of stuff doesn't fly in match-up discussion, this isn't the place for it.
I also mention how shine stalling completely throws of Toon Link's ablitily to intercept Fox from above. Fox works amazingly about Toon Link thanks to the drill - whatever the Fox wants.
Again, situational. You can't shinestall all day and magically destroy TL's aerial game or whatever. There are a number of other characters that can air stall in this game too, it's nothing new. If you stall correctly, you can punish TL. If you're wrong, you might eat a Uair which depending on your height could make you eat a full powered uair of death. Seeing as Fox gets lighter and lighter each Smash game, a fresh TL uair will kill rather easily.
And it's situational due to the fact that you do have lag from the shine since you can't jump out of it anymore. If you mistime it you'll get punished instead. Intercepting an interception. So no, Fox has an extra trick to get down after he gets launched up, but it's nothing overly amazing.
Also we could just wait for you to come down. =/
I didn't just talk about offstage gimps. Read again closely.
I talk about how Fox gets in Toon Link's face thanks to DCSG and basically destroys any camp game Toon Link could have had even though it wouldn't matter because of the reflector.
DCSG is Dash Canceled Shield Grab, right?
I feel as if you think all TL does is camp all day, and mindlessly throw around aerials. I mean he kinda sucks but you're making him seem like he's beyond trash tier.
You are making SCSG sound like it's amazing despite the fact that Fox's grab range is...suckish. His grab range isn't impressive and it's an universal tactic EVERYONE can do. Sure Fox is fast so that helps that, but after you get the grab...what? There are no [guaranteed] set-ups after doing so to my knowledge. Plus if you going in THAT close to TL, chances are you will grab, so a spotdodge to utilt can easily put a stop to that. Again, nothing overly safe or amazing. You can only pull this off safely if TL is too busy bringing out projectiles. If he is, he's playing the match-up wrong.
And Toon Link knows he can't camp all day since you have Reflector. If you try to close in you may get baited into a trap and eat crap yourself.
Everything is situational that you're saying.
Your run-down basically comprises of this -
Fox can DCSG with his high speed (you emphasized this, but for the sake of this discussion I'll count it as Fox being able to make his comfort zone happen easier than TL. I will grant this).
Can use reflector to shut down projectile game
Can gimp TL rather easily
And so this somehow equals 60:40 in your opinion. I know 60:40 Fox can be a valid ratio, I have no problem with this as much as
how you supported your statement.
First of all TL's projectiles aren't all about hitting your opponent for chip damage, which is what Fox's projectile does (well, it has to do this since it can't do much else lol). TL's projectile are meant to zone and limit your options. It doesn't matter if it hits you or not. If it makes you more likely to react in a way that can be punished or to make you less likely to do action 'x', it's all good. So if I force you to reflector a SH arrow then dash to shield canceled usmash (this is all hypothetical, this is not going to happen very often), the projectile did its work, even if it wasn't to zone you and force you to approach.
I believed I already touched on how well the two gimp each other although Fox does have it easier but it's not exactly difficult to gimp Fox either so it's even in that department.
@ Zhamy - Post it man. I'm all ears to hear what you have to say as well.
And I didn't mean to attack anyone. It's just that I've seen this kind of arguing before and putting in mindgames and gimmicks into match-up discussions makes them EXTREMELY worthless since those are common application everyone can do.
What we should focus on is the pace of the match, where distinct advantages are, who does what, what effective strategies and mindsets can be commonly applied throughout the match, etc. Not "what if Char. Y does this and then Char. Z does that" because we could argue all day and learn nothing but the fact that we wasted our time.
Again, sorry man. Someone give me a chill pill please. =(
