Too many people prioritize quantity in representation, and too little for quality.

[Captain Shades]

The issue is that people just want modern Kirby just because "it needs to be represented". No one is asking what kind of new AND interesting things modern Kirby representation can bring in the context of Smash, which is absolutely nothing.

The spear aesthetic wouldn't change that BD would be similar to Meta Knight. How would you feel if Spring Man got in from ARMS when we already have the Belmonts as the dedicated redonkulous long range fighters?

Umm.. All of this is wrong. First off it’s literally been 2 decades since the most prominent Kirby title in Smash, Super Star released. Many Smash fans, including myself, are too either too young to know or have experienced that as our first Kirby title.

And I know what you’ll say, obviously Super Star set the ground work and thus every Kirby game is just Super Star 2.0 and doesn’t bring anything new, but this assumption is so wrong. That’s like saying Mario 64 should be the only 3D Mario represented because it started it all.

So much of Kirby’s lore and universe were established after Sakurai left with Another Dimension and multiple worlds being introduced from Yarn to a big canvas. Characters like Dark Matter, The Squeaks, the Ancients, all the animal buddies, etc. Kirby is massive now and BD is the perfect start to finally representing the franchise as a whole as he is one of the more reoccurring characters that isn’t tied to a particular game or story line.

Also BD wouldn’t play like Meta Knight. I’m going to assume you don’t play Kirby as Kirby is heavily structured like Smash and has both Meta Knight and BD playable in a few titles and they never play similar to each other.

Ultimately, Kirby has so much content that’s hidden from Smash, which is why people want Kirby content from the new era. Add in that many Kirby fans are probably here because of new titles, RTDL was kinda a jump start for the franchise, and I think there are plenty of reasons to want new Kirby material.


Also I’d love for Spring Man to be in. Arms isn’t just about long range, it’s also about the combinations of uniquely powered ARMS you use that bring in numerous effects to an opponent, so there’s tons of untapped potential.

I did not say that the only Pokémon icons are in Gen 1; honestly, if you're bringing this up, YOU are the one that thinks this. I just want Pokémon that don't fall off in iconic status and popularity after their Gen like Jigglypuff did, and mark my words Incinceroar WILL fall off after his gen.

Dude, you literally only put Gen 1 Pokemon inside your keep list, with the exception of Lucario. Greninja and Pichu weren’t even considered worth keeping even though Greninja was iconic enough to be a highlight in the new Detective Pikachu movie and Pichu was big enough to get his own anime shorts and be part of the mystery dungeon series. Pichu is also really recognizable and remembered due to being the pre-evolution of Pikachu and definitely being market heavily because of it. Moving on, my problem is that the idea of iconic is really hard when talking about Pokémon as there is always an ever lingering Gen 1 bias that usually affects the other gens really negatively and doesn’t allow them much of an opportunity to even create icons. I love Smash as it really helps show Pokemon to its fullest, otherwise most gens would get over taken as The Pokemon company doesn’t usually do a good job of using Pokémon not form the newest Gen or 1 in marketing. This is why it’s really hard to have Pokémon icons without the roster being Gen 1 exclusive with the occasional strangler like Lucario having access. The Pokémon Company and even fans will usually fall back on Gen1 shortly after a new Gen has made a storm.

Captain Falcon by himself already captures the Saturday Morning spirit of F-Zero. They can't really afford to stick Captain Falcon's moveset onto more F-Zero characters, nor should they make up more movesets. They could do it for Falcon since he's the main character, but anything else just adds aspects that are unnecessary and/or redundant.

I mean, we have 3 Star Fox characters with roughly the same moveset, so why can’t they use the Falcon moveset again. Honestly I don’t see an issue with introducing something like a Saturday Morning villain to oppose our comical hero. It’s also weird that you of all people would be opposed to this seeing as Black Shadow can easily bring in that King of Disrespect moveset you missed from Ganondorf in Smash Wii U.

Also you’re forgetting that most F-Zero racers are bounty hunters that carry around technologically advanced weaponry with stuff like laser guns and yet Captain Falcon doesn’t even use the main weapon he had in the comics of the instruction manual for F-Zero where he debuted. Just Saying!

 

[Quillion]

Umm.. All of this is wrong. First off it’s literally been 2 decades since the most prominent Kirby title in Smash, Super Star released. Many Smash fans, including myself, are too either too young to know or have experienced that as our first Kirby title.

And I know what you’ll say, obviously Super Star set the ground work and thus every Kirby game is just Super Star 2.0 and doesn’t bring anything new, but this assumption is so wrong. That’s like saying Mario 64 should be the only 3D Mario represented because it started it all.

So much of Kirby’s lore and universe were established after Sakurai left with Another Dimension and multiple worlds being introduced from Yarn to a big canvas. Characters like Dark Matter, The Squeaks, the Ancients, all the animal buddies, etc. Kirby is massive now and BD is the perfect start to finally representing the franchise as a whole as he is one of the more reoccurring characters that isn’t tied to a particular game or story line.

Sure, Kirby has accumulated a lot of lore and world-building since RTDL hit the scene. But in terms of aesthetics and mechanics, it's just sticking to the foundations of the early games with polygonal presentation. Cookie Country, Fine Fields, and Patched Plains would not provide anything that Green Greens doesn't already.

Also BD wouldn’t play like Meta Knight. I’m going to assume you don’t play Kirby as Kirby is heavily structured like Smash and has both Meta Knight and BD playable in a few titles and they never play similar to each other.

Don't assume that. I'm aware that BD uses the Spear moveset and Meta Knight uses the sword moveset when playable. And the spear moveset has a rapid combo, an upwards attack, and a downwars aerial attack like sword. It's not that different, bro.

Ultimately, Kirby has so much content that’s hidden from Smash, which is why people want Kirby content from the new era. Add in that many Kirby fans are probably here because of new titles, RTDL was kinda a jump start for the franchise, and I think there are plenty of reasons to want new Kirby material.

And maybe that's because, again, there's literally nothing new and interesting that modern Kirby representation can provide over the older games.

Dude, you literally only put Gen 1 Pokemon inside your keep list, with the exception of Lucario. Greninja and Pichu weren’t even considered worth keeping even though Greninja was iconic enough to be a highlight in the new Detective Pikachu movie and Pichu was big enough to get his own anime shorts and be part of the mystery dungeon series. Pichu is also really recognizable and remembered due to being the pre-evolution of Pikachu and definitely being market heavily because of it. Moving on, my problem is that the idea of iconic is really hard when talking about Pokémon as there is always an ever lingering Gen 1 bias that usually affects the other gens really negatively and doesn’t allow them much of an opportunity to even create icons. I love Smash as it really helps show Pokemon to its fullest, otherwise most gens would get over taken as The Pokemon company doesn’t usually do a good job of using Pokémon not form the newest Gen or 1 in marketing. This is why it’s really hard to have Pokémon icons without the roster being Gen 1 exclusive with the occasional strangler like Lucario having access. The Pokémon Company and even fans will usually fall back on Gen1 shortly after a new Gen has made a storm.

If you recall, I said that they got lucky with Greninja. I just didn't want to mention him as a keeper twice.

Except for maybe Gen 5, every gen past 1 has generated an icon, though. Gen 2 has, as you said, arguably Pichu, Marill, and Tyranitar. Gen 3 has Blaziken and Gardevoir. Gen 4 has Lucario and Garchomp. Gen 6 has Greninja. Gen 7 has Decidueye.

I'd say that if they go back and pick the icons instead of having to guess who will become one, they have a solid selection.

I mean, we have 3 Star Fox characters with roughly the same moveset, so why can’t they use the Falcon moveset again. Honestly I don’t see an issue with introducing something like a Saturday Morning villain to oppose our comical hero. It’s also weird that you of all people would be opposed to this seeing as Black Shadow can easily bring in that King of Disrespect moveset you missed from Ganondorf in Smash Wii U.

Because just making semi-echoes just to get characters in is the definition of quantity over quality in representation. I don't like how Star Fox does it, since that's all it has instead of more diverse weaponry from Assault or something.

And I want Ganondorf to be the slow dark puncher; Black Shadow would be an insult to everyone involved.

Also you’re forgetting that most F-Zero racers are bounty hunters that carry around technologically advanced weaponry with stuff like laser guns and yet Captain Falcon doesn’t even use the main weapon he had in the comics of the instruction manual for F-Zero where he debuted. Just Saying!

And you accuse me of lack of awareness of Kirby. The F-Zero characters all come from different backgrounds and occupations, from bounty hunters to doctors to government officials to royalty.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Gen 7 has Decidueye.

I would argue that Mimikyu is a bigger icon. A lot of people wanted Decidueye not to appeal to a big fanbase, but because it was a grass starter. It was its unevolved form that had the big fanbase.

And that is generally a problem I have with Smash speculators and Pokemon: Focusing too much on quotas and not popularity. Eevee should be considered a bigger omission than any grass starter, and Emolga, Oshawott, and Zorark should've been more obvious Gen V echo choices than Gothitelle, not just because of popularity but because the fighters they'd echo are already made.

 

[Opossum]

I would argue that Mimikyu is a bigger icon. A lot of people wanted Decidueye not to appeal to a big fanbase, but because it was a grass starter. It was its unevolved form that had the big fanbase.

And that is generally a problem I have with Smash speculators and Pokemon: Focusing too much on quotas and not popularity. Eevee should be considered a bigger omission than any grass starter, and Emolga, Oshawott, and Zorark should've been more obvious Gen V echo choices than Gothitelle, not just because of popularity but because the fighters they'd echo are already made.

And yet it was Decidueye, not Mimikyu, that almost became a fighter in Smash. And let's not go into the whole "they only wanted it because Grass quota" fallacy when tons of people like Decidueye.


That being said...

Sure, Kirby has accumulated a lot of lore and world-building since RTDL hit the scene. But in terms of aesthetics and mechanics, it's just sticking to the foundations of the early games with polygonal presentation. Cookie Country, Fine Fields, and Patched Plains would not provide anything that Green Greens doesn't already.



Don't assume that. I'm aware that BD uses the Spear moveset and Meta Knight uses the sword moveset when playable. And the spear moveset has a rapid combo, an upwards attack, and a downwars aerial attack like sword. It's not that different, bro.



And maybe that's because, again, there's literally nothing new and interesting that modern Kirby representation can provide over the older games.



If you recall, I said that they got lucky with Greninja. I just didn't want to mention him as a keeper twice.

Except for maybe Gen 5, every gen past 1 has generated an icon, though. Gen 2 has, as you said, arguably Pichu, Marill, and Tyranitar. Gen 3 has Blaziken and Gardevoir. Gen 4 has Lucario and Garchomp. Gen 6 has Greninja. Gen 7 has Decidueye.

I'd say that if they go back and pick the icons instead of having to guess who will become one, they have a solid selection.



Because just making semi-echoes just to get characters in is the definition of quantity over quality in representation. I don't like how Star Fox does it, since that's all it has instead of more diverse weaponry from Assault or something.

And I want Ganondorf to be the slow dark puncher; Black Shadow would be an insult to everyone involved.



And you accuse me of lack of awareness of Kirby. The F-Zero characters all come from different backgrounds and occupations, from bounty hunters to doctors to government officials to royalty.

Decidueye is absolutely not Gen VII's major icon, or at least not more than Incineroar is. Unlike Kalos where Greninja was by far the most popular even before his Smash debut, all three of the Alola starters shared pretty even popularity, with maybe Primarina a bit less so. Decidueye and Incineroar are by no means in different classes of fame and notability.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And yet it was Decidueye, not Mimikyu, that almost became a fighter in Smash. And let's not go into the whole "they only wanted it because Grass quota" fallacy when tons of people like Decidueye.


That being said...

Decidueye is absolutely not Gen VII's major icon, or at least not more than Incineroar is. Unlike Kalos where Greninja was by far the most popular even before his Smash debut, all three of the Alola starters shared pretty even popularity, with maybe Primarina a bit less so. Decidueye and Incineroar are by no means in different classes of fame and notability.

You are definitely biased in favor of Decidueye. Japan has it be dead last in terms of favorite Alolan starters, and they vastly prefer its unevolved self. This lack of Japanese popularity is probably why Decidueye got the axe. I say probably because it wouldn't even be Incineroar if Sakurai actually did his research.

Also, just because Decidueye was considered doesn't mean it had a Smash moveset fully made.

 

[Captain Shades]

Sure, Kirby has accumulated a lot of lore and world-building since RTDL hit the scene. But in terms of aesthetics and mechanics, it's just sticking to the foundations of the early games with polygonal presentation. Cookie Country, Fine Fields, and Patched Plains would not provide anything that Green Greens doesn't already.

Why don’t we just include stages that aren’t Green Greens then. You act as though Sakurai can only pick the first level of Kirby titles, which even then Epic Yarn and Robobot would still provide very unique takes on the concept with one having metal every where and Epic Yarn being completely made of arts and crafts. Take in very early game places like Another Dimension and we could get the cosmic hell found in multiple titles. We also now have many big iconic set pieces like the Lor Star Cutter in which fights can take place

Don't assume that. I'm aware that BD uses the Spear moveset and Meta Knight uses the sword moveset when playable. And the spear moveset has a rapid combo, an upwards attack, and a downwars aerial attack like sword. It's not that different, bro.

They’d still be different, none of what would be BD’s specials would be the same as Meta Knight’s. Plus a spear and a sword are different weapons, you cannot use a spear like a sword, BD would have to stab opponents instead of slicing like Meta Knight. Add in that BD has also used Parasol, and I’d say he’s got a pretty good moveset. Plus not all moves have to be original obviously many characters take after another in some way, so BD taking some standard moves doesn’t break much of anything.

And maybe that's because, again, there's literally nothing new and interesting that modern Kirby representation can provide over the older games.

Or because Sakurai doesn’t like using material not from his titles. I mean, this is the same man who choose his assists to be Knightmare and generic enemies over any of the Dark Matter Trilogy characters including the loved Animal Buddies, or including modern characters like Magolor or Susie. Kirby has plenty new, Sakurai just seems to stick to what he made, which is why people ask for new content, because can you really defend Kirby’s only assists being generic enemies and a long forgotten NES villain that Kirby doesn’t use anymore over actual new characters that are more recognizable to fans.

If you recall, I said that they got lucky with Greninja. I just didn't want to mention him as a keeper twice.

Except for maybe Gen 5, every gen past 1 has generated an icon, though. Gen 2 has, as you said, arguably Pichu, Marill, and Tyranitar. Gen 3 has Blaziken and Gardevoir. Gen 4 has Lucario and Garchomp. Gen 6 has Greninja. Gen 7 has Decidueye.

I'd say that if they go back and pick the icons instead of having to guess who will become one, they have a solid selection.

I can agree though I don’t think this will happen as Smash usually tries to keep up with the times and includes Pokémon from the newest Gen, and the problem is that the newest Gen is roughly a year old by then. Honestly, I think the system works, so far all new Gen faces have become icons from Pichu to Greninja, and Incinceroar is the only wait and see character, though I doubt he’ll be forgotten as Decidueye is considered the most popular but was really just equal to him and the Smash community just jumped the gun and praised him as our next character.

And you accuse me of lack of awareness of Kirby. The F-Zero characters all come from different backgrounds and occupations, from bounty hunters to doctors to government officials to royalty.

I screwed up, maybe wrighting at 10 was not the best idea. Again, it does show that you cannot get the full F-Zero experience without the cast as many are very unique in their own right.

And I want Ganondorf to be the slow dark puncher; Black Shadow would be an insult to everyone involved.

Most wouldn’t mind this as every seemed to agree or mention it in your Ganon thread. The move set fits, and Ganondorf can be moved away to be original if it happens, you’re the only one who really seems to have a problem with Black Shadow taking on the old moveset and becoming a fighter.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Most wouldn’t mind this as every seemed to agree or mention it in your Ganon thread. The move set fits, and Ganondorf can be moved away to be original if it happens, you’re the only one who really seems to have a problem with Black Shadow taking on the old moveset and becoming a fighter.

I also have a problem with Black Shadow being the new old Ganondorf, because you're simply adding a character to fill a quota and act as a dumping ground. Even the "old moveset dumping grounds" that are already in Smash have plenty of distinct things. I would rather have Samurai Goroh be a unique fighter and Ganondorf have some more Ganondorf-themed tools added to slow-but-strong Captain Falcon.

 

[Arthur97]

Still, the majority seem to prefer the idea of Ganondorf being unique and wouldn't mind Black Shadow inheriting the moveset. Also, bear in mind that Black Shadow has little to nothing to pull from for moves.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If anything, Black Shadow would've probably been a Captain Falcon semi-clone, with his overall mobility being rather weak.

 

[Arthur97]

Yeah, he doesn't have to be a full clone. The main reason I say give him the moveset is since Sakurai seems determined to keep it around. Might as well be on a more fitting character.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Thing is, you're gonna have to spend resources making a unique fighter, so why not have it be the new F-Zero rep? If it's Ganondorf that gets the unique moveset, people will focus more on that. That, and the question about AT character redundancies has already been answered with things like the Moon and Klaptrap. With Black Shadow, you have to consider whether players need to pay to get access to Ganondorf again or slow-but-strong Falcon again.

 

[Arthur97]

Pay?

Either way, the moveset fits Black Shadow far better than Ganondorf. If the moveset must stay, better to give it to him and let Ganondorf finally be Ganondorf. Honestly not sure what Black Shadow's unique moveset would be. They could pull something out of thin air I suppose much like Falcon himself.

If there is only going to be one unique moveset, tell me why it should be the F-Zero fighter and not Ganondorf?

 

[UserKev]

And yet it was Decidueye, not Mimikyu, that almost became a fighter in Smash. And let's not go into the whole "they only wanted it because Grass quota" fallacy when tons of people like Decidueye.


That being said...

Decidueye is absolutely not Gen VII's major icon, or at least not more than Incineroar is. Unlike Kalos where Greninja was by far the most popular even before his Smash debut, all three of the Alola starters shared pretty even popularity, with maybe Primarina a bit less so. Decidueye and Incineroar are by no means in different classes of fame and notability.

Decidueye is unique but rather if its strongly iconic or not is potentially questionable. There is almost no presence of it in Ultimate, no Pokeball summon, and probably even no trophy. All of gen 7's Pokeball summons in Ultimate are basically every gen 7 icon. I think Decidueye ended up just a product of over requested, also, Pokken Tournament kind of made it a filler Pokémon, where's Mimikyu was rejected due to its odd body type portions, probably likely.

 

[Sean²]

I agree on the premise of this topic. Quality original characters are better than larger amounts of rehash/one-shot characters.

However, I disagree with just about every one of the supporting points. Your characters you listed as unnecessary could easily be flipped with the list of characters you deem necessary as there's a good counter-argument for just about all of them.

Just for example, I have a lot of trouble envisioning Dixie Kong as a playable character. Unless you pulled things from the spinoffs, or just general DKC mechanics, I can't see her being anything other than a Diddy semi-clone with hair attacks over slaps and kicks, with Spinning Kong as her up B, just using her hair instead of big monkey arms to fly. I could see her being a cool assist trophy, her popping out of a DK barrel and following you around ICs style and helping you attack. It would be a callback to their original intention for Diddy/Dixie in Brawl, and be a good callback to the original DKC games. If I've missed something else that she generally does (that isn't spinoff specific) then my mistake. I haven't played Tropical Freeze or DKCR.

Then on the other hand, a character like Bandana Waddle Dee could bring in something completely new. We're used to swordfighters. He uses a spear - something the series has never had before. Spears can be thrown and used up close. If you've seen any gameplay from Return to Dreamland, he almost has a complete Smash moveset built in and ready to go in that game. Add a few other callbacks, like maybe something similar to Megaton Punch in Super Star, and you have a great concept for a Smash character. Add the fact that he's well-liked and well-known amongst fans of the series, there's no reason to call him a fourth wheel any longer. Similarities to Meta Knight are reaching a bit too - MK is meant to have swift swordplay, BWD has slower attacks with more range. Maybe he'd dash similarly to Kirby, but that's about it IMO.

I don't play FE so I won't comment on that.

 

[Gamer Cube]

We don't need more FE or Pokemon. We have 8 pokemon characters (technically 10) on the rosters and basically the same amount of FE characters. We should work on introducing different series like P5 or we should add to some of the current series instead of more FE characters. We seriously have enough characters from both series.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Just for example, I have a lot of trouble envisioning Dixie Kong as a playable character. Unless you pulled things from the spinoffs, or just general DKC mechanics, I can't see her being anything other than a Diddy semi-clone with hair attacks over slaps and kicks, with Spinning Kong as her up B, just using her hair instead of big monkey arms to fly. I could see her being a cool assist trophy, her popping out of a DK barrel and following you around ICs style and helping you attack. It would be a callback to their original intention for Diddy/Dixie in Brawl, and be a good callback to the original DKC games. If I've missed something else that she generally does (that isn't spinoff specific) then my mistake. I haven't played Tropical Freeze or DKCR.

Well first off, you just envisioned her as a playable character right there. Her being an Assist Trophy would be a huge insult and waste of her potential considering she was playable in more games than DK in the original trilogy. Thankfully, that wasn’t the case for Ultimate.

Second off, she's not in DKCR so that wouldn't matter either way, but you probably should play Tropical Freeze before trying to discount Dixie.

 

[Guynamednelson]

We don't need more FE or Pokemon. We have 8 pokemon characters (technically 10) on the rosters and basically the same amount of FE characters. We should work on introducing different series like P5 or we should add to some of the current series instead of more FE characters. We seriously have enough characters from both series.

Question: Do you want Geno or Waluigi?

 

[Gamer Cube]

Question: Do you want Geno or Waluigi?

Geno is already a spirit and Waluigi is an assist trophy, but if they changed the game slightly, Waluigi is a little more prominent, so I would want him to come in. It would complete the Wa duo (Wario and Waluigi).

 

[Arthur97]

Don't discount just cause of spirits. Remember, it's very likely the plant was supposed to be on the base roster so it makes sense it didn't get one. The rest of DLC may have been planned after spirits were finalized.

 

[Gamer Cube]

Don't discount just cause of spirits. Remember, it's very likely the plant was supposed to be on the base roster so it makes sense it didn't get one. The rest of DLC may have been planned after spirits were finalized.

I'm gonna assume this was geared toward me, and I don't think Geno would look that good as a character in SSBU. Waluigi has a little bit better looks in my eyes, they can do more with him design wise.

 

[Arthur97]

I'm gonna assume this was geared toward me, and I don't think Geno would look that good as a character in SSBU. Waluigi has a little bit better looks in my eyes, they can do more with him design wise.

That's not really relevant to being a spirit.

 

[Gamer Cube]

That's not really relevant to being a spirit.

I know, but I was showing you that I wasn't basing my opinions off of whether their a spirit or not, I was just saying there's a good chance of neither coming to SSBU for those reasons.

 

[Sean²]

Well first off, you just envisioned her as a playable character right there. Her being an Assist Trophy would be a huge insult and waste of her potential considering she was playable in more games than DK in the original trilogy.

Second off, she's not in DKCR so that wouldn't matter either way, but you probably should play Tropical Freeze before trying to discount Dixie.

But the point is to avoid more semi-clones, yes? I feel like she would be, at best, an Isabelle level semi-clone. That's all I was saying. I am not exactly for, nor am I against Dixie Kong being playable, I could care less tbh. Same with BWD. I have my own character hopes to think about. But they were the easiest examples from the OP to describe how I think Nintendo might handle their addition to Ultimate.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I said I would make a topic about how people are caring too much about quantity over quality in representation. I'm keeping my promise.

Because why do you think people care so much about "number of reps per franchise"? People expect the more popular franchises to get the lion's share of character representation. People also believe that franchises with more character variety should have more characters. But what I'm seeing is way too much wanting for characters just because "this franchise needs more", or worse: "because less popular franchise X has more, more popular franchise Y needs even more".

Really, I don't mind the idea that certain franchises need more characters. But wouldn't it be better to judge how characters add to the quality of representation? We shouldn't be judging on how much of a series is represented, but how well they add to a series' representation. How about instead of, "Does this character fill a quota needed by X series?", we can ask, "Does this character represent an integral facet of their franchise OR does this character encompass the spirit of their games?" To put it more simply, we need less "This series needs MORE reps" and more "This series needs BETTER reps".

In these terms, here are some characters we DON'T need:

• We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.
• We don't need more F-Zero characters. Captain Falcon encompasses the high-speed spirit of F-Zero in himself that adding another would either stray too far from F-Zero or would be redundant.
• We don't need Bandana Waddle Dee. He is being pushed as a "fourth wheel" to the main trio of Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight by HAL, true. But that's the only reason people push for him so much. Not only does his spear moveset add nothing new as he would be just another small disjoint character like Meta Knight, but his moveset has always been rather bland in the whimsical environment of the Kirby series. He may be prominent, but he doesn't really represent Kirby all too well.
• We don't need every single Zelda one-shot because they are most relevant in the newest game. People keep bringing up Fire Emblem to point out that Zelda could have one-shots if Sakurai isn't biased... but people also forget that Fire Emblem's one-shots are its ONLY main characters. Zelda's one-shots are still on a lower tier than the Triforce trio, and that's what makes most of them unworthy.
• We don't need every Pokémon from the most recent generation. Sure Pokémon has gotten lucky with Greninja; sure Pokémon thrives on having such a rich and diverse cast. But it would be best for Pokémon to be held to the standard that the most iconic ones that are both popular and appear frequently in promotion. Pikachu, the Gen 1 starters, Mewtwo, and Lucario has stayed there, but we shouldn't repeat the situations of Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar, who have all fallen off in prominence or are guaranteed to fall off by next game.

On the other hand, here are some characters I feel we DO need:

• Dixie Kong, (semi-)echo of Diddy or not, would add to the pool of Donkey Kong representation well as she is the series' tritagonist. As long as her hair abilities are intact, she would fully complete the Donkey Kong cast in a way such that other mainstays like Cranky or Funky would add nothing more.
• Skull Kid, while effectively a one-shot, DOES add to Zelda's pool of representation. He would be an actual good representation of the series' storied history one-shots, even moreso than Sheik. Zelda doesn't need a load of one-shots, but on Skull Kid's enduring popularity and the fact that he represents Zelda's golden age (unlike Midna who represents the Wii-era decline), he should be the single one-shot to end them all.
• Speaking of Zelda, this is more of a character change, but Zelda's existing representation quality is honestly rather poor. Three of the characters are Link with similar movesets, and Zelda and Ganondorf's portrayals neglect their signature abilities. And Sheik was a fluke pick. It would improve Zelda's quality of representation to have them semi-revamped at least, Zelda and Ganon especially. Its good quantity of representation does not excuse this.
• In general, we need to take what Piranha Plant started and make more enemies playable. This is an interesting facet of many series that has gotten long overlooked in Smash, and Piranha Plant opens the doors for them. That being said, there should be two caveats: first that the enemies themselves are recognizable and not further joke picks, and that they can fulfill "Mascot Mook" status. So no Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes, but more things like Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen.
• We need MORE Fire Emblem characters... that are enduringly popular. They shouldn't be shoehorning characters from the most recent installment like they did Robin, Lucina, and Corrin just because they are recent. Instead, they should shoot for the characters that have stayed popular. Lyn, Hector, Micaiah, and Celica have all remained quite popular since their debuts (or remake in Celica's case). Hell, I'd even say Chrom was a step in the right direction since he has stayed popular in the years since, unlike Robin and Corrin.

So there you have it. I understand characters being judged in relation to how the represent a series, but I just want to be how, not how much.

Much of this made sense to me- I've argued for characters that add breadth to each series and make the series, overall, feel better represented. Hence, why I'm so adamant about an Eevee being based on evolution (a key component of Smash bros), and previously a Trainer who used the Pokeball- as well as new species of Hyrule to show the vastness of the world, and beyond.

As far as Fire Emblem though, its only Robin and Corrin who actually add this breadth- Robin was added because he added the "essence of FE" to Sakurai. You don't even mention Anna!

All said, mostly I agree with you- and still I wait for Captain Toad as a character who works around not being able to Jump. Let's get more of the various worlds' mechanics into this game!

 

[Guynamednelson]

Geno is already a spirit and Waluigi is an assist trophy, but if they changed the game slightly, Waluigi is a little more prominent, so I would want him to come in. It would complete the Wa duo (Wario and Waluigi).

My point was that you should hate the idea of these characters being added because they'd be a 10th Mario character. It doesn't matter whether or not you prefer them and have been convinced that Mewtwo is the only popular Pokemon in existence.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

But the point is to avoid more semi-clones, yes?

When was that ever the point?
When I talk about quality, I talk about quality of character as well as movesets, not just movesets solely.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Don't discount just cause of spirits. Remember, it's very likely the plant was supposed to be on the base roster so it makes sense it didn't get one. The rest of DLC may have been planned after spirits were finalized.

It definitely explains why the Piranha Plant has its own guidance conversation, while all the future DLC fighters will likely end up with the "intruder from another dimension" statement.

 

[Guynamednelson]

It definitely explains why the Piranha Plant has its own guidance conversation, while all the future DLC fighters will likely end up with the "intruder from another dimension" statement.

Sakurai already confirmed that future DLC will get the generic guidance.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

My point was that you should hate the idea of these characters being added because they'd be a 10th Mario character. It doesn't matter whether or not you prefer them and have been convinced that Mewtwo is the only popular Pokemon in existence.

People don't want these characters because of just wanting a 10th Mario rep, they want these characters because they are unique and are passionate about them. Or at least Geno to most people.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

People don't want these characters because of just wanting a 10th Mario rep, they want these characters because they are unique and are passionate about them. Or at least Geno to most people.

Geno only appeared in one game though, and considering how strict Square Enix is with its property, people should just be fortunate that Geno got a Spirit appearance.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Geno only appeared in one game though, and considering how strict Square Enix is with its property, people should just be fortunate that Geno got a Spirit appearance.

I agree. But I was just saying how most people didn't just want him to just add another Mario rep to the roster.

 

[Captain Shades]

Pay?

Either way, the moveset fits Black Shadow far better than Ganondorf. If the moveset must stay, better to give it to him and let Ganondorf finally be Ganondorf. Honestly not sure what Black Shadow's unique moveset would be. They could pull something out of thin air I suppose much like Falcon himself.

If there is only going to be one unique moveset, tell me why it should be the F-Zero fighter and not Ganondorf?

Black Shadow could use explosives seeing as he rigged the Blue Falcon to blow at the end of F-Zero GX

 

[Sean²]

When was that ever the point?
When I talk about quality, I talk about quality of character as well as movesets, not just movesets solely.

Right from the OP:

• We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.

That's all I'm talking about. You'd be adding Dixie Kong because she is a "high quality" representative of the DK franchise, correct? That's at least that's part of the reason. Or feel like they are under- or mis-represented with their current representatives? Quality of character aside, would you accept a near or full echo fighter just to get a high quality representative in the game? Or would you be more satisfied with another one of your most wanted, high quality characters that is fully original in moveset?

Again. I don't really care about the character, and would be content whether she does or doesn't make it in as DLC. I was only using her as an example of how the OP's reasoning for character inclusion and "quality" could be turned upon itself. Attacking the character's validity as a possible fighter is not my intention.

 

[Mushroomguy12]

Right from the OP:



That's all I'm talking about. You'd be adding Dixie Kong because she is a "high quality" representative of the DK franchise, correct? That's at least that's part of the reason. Or feel like they are under- or mis-represented with their current representatives? Quality of character aside, would you accept a near or full echo fighter just to get a high quality representative in the game?

Well first off, I’m not the OP, so my definition of quality is going to be different from his/her, and even then, he/she clearly didn’t put Dixie in that category, probably due to the fact that Dixie doesn’t necessarily need to be an echo.

So yes, I would accept that high quality representative. She should have been added with K. Rool in the base game.

 

[Guynamednelson]

People don't want these characters because of just wanting a 10th Mario rep, they want these characters because they are unique and are passionate about them. Or at least Geno to most people.

Exactly. You don't care how many Mario characters there are, and still want Geno/Waluigi because you like them. Therefore, it is a double standard.

 

[Sean²]

Well first off, I’m not the OP, so my definition of quality is going to be different from his/her, and even then, he/she clearly didn’t put Dixie in that category, probably due to the fact that Dixie doesn’t necessarily need to be an echo.

So yes, I would accept that high quality representative. She should have been added with K. Rool in the base game.

My original post was responding to the OP. You piped in so I continued my response. At no point did I change the fact that I was still talking about my response to the OP. I used the character as an example, again. Along with BWD as they’d both be kind of 4th wheel reps to their franchise.

You’re focusing too hard on the fact that I said ‘Dixie’ and not some other random name off the list. Replace the character with whatever name you want, Dixie was just the name that was easiest to grab off the list to deliver my opinion about. I don’t quite know why you’re getting fired up about it.

 

[pupNapoleon]

And that is generally a problem I have with Smash speculators and Pokemon: Focusing too much on quotas and not popularity. Eevee should be considered a bigger omission than any grass starter, and Emolga, Oshawott, and Zorark should've been more obvious Gen V echo choices than Gothitelle, not just because of popularity but because the fighters they'd echo are already made.

Yes- Eevee is indeed a bigger omission. I'd argue Meowth is as well- sure from the anime, but that cannot be understated when it comes to Meowth.
It won't happen, but I'd love to see Eevee come in with an evolution mechanic (which would require programming each Eeveelution, so essentially a clone), and Team Rocket- playable mostly through Meowth, but with cheating- flash animations of other Pokemon joining the battle (such as Wobuffet), as well as cheap mechanics like using the Pokeball to capture other users (trap them).

This would be perfect in my eyes.

That said, they only originated in Gen 1. They've been focal points of most other generations. To relegate them to 'just being gen 1' simply because they have been around since then. Generation representation (or the equivalent) is not even a comment when it comes to other franchises. Bull****.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Eevee come in with an evolution mechanic (which would require programming each Eeveelution, so essentially a clone

I came up with an idea of it being a mix of Monado Arts and copy abilities: You select one of three evolutionary stones, but instead of evolving Eevee gains buffs/nerfs to its stats based on which one you chose, plus a different neutral B.

 

[RetrogamerMax]

Exactly. You don't care how many Mario characters there are, and still want Geno/Waluigi because you like them. Therefore, it is a double standard.

I didn't say I wanted them, I said a lot of people wanted them.

 

[pupNapoleon]

I came up with an idea of it being a mix of Monado Arts and copy abilities: You select one of three evolutionary stones, but instead of evolving Eevee gains buffs/nerfs to its stats based on which one you chose, plus a different neutral B.

Respectfully- I am against this idea, fully.
I am a fan of all characters feeling as unique as possible, representing their brand to the best of their ability.
Any character who 'works like someone else' is already a no-no for me. We have Shulk, we don't need another character with any similarity to Monado Arts.
As far as Eevee goes- it represents the entire idea of evolution, a core component of Pokemon (that is so far completely lacking in Smash bros). It also crosses many generations. An Eevee without access to all of its evolved forms really misses the mark, in my eyes.