Too many people prioritize quantity in representation, and too little for quality.

Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,124
#1
I said I would make a topic about how people are caring too much about quantity over quality in representation. I'm keeping my promise.

Because why do you think people care so much about "number of reps per franchise"? People expect the more popular franchises to get the lion's share of character representation. People also believe that franchises with more character variety should have more characters. But what I'm seeing is way too much wanting for characters just because "this franchise needs more", or worse: "because less popular franchise X has more, more popular franchise Y needs even more".

Really, I don't mind the idea that certain franchises need more characters. But wouldn't it be better to judge how characters add to the quality of representation? We shouldn't be judging on how much of a series is represented, but how well they add to a series' representation. How about instead of, "Does this character fill a quota needed by X series?", we can ask, "Does this character represent an integral facet of their franchise OR does this character encompass the spirit of their games?" To put it more simply, we need less "This series needs MORE reps" and more "This series needs BETTER reps".

In these terms, here are some characters we DON'T need:
  • We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.
  • We don't need more F-Zero characters. Captain Falcon encompasses the high-speed spirit of F-Zero in himself that adding another would either stray too far from F-Zero or would be redundant.
  • We don't need Bandana Waddle Dee. He is being pushed as a "fourth wheel" to the main trio of Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight by HAL, true. But that's the only reason people push for him so much. Not only does his spear moveset add nothing new as he would be just another small disjoint character like Meta Knight, but his moveset has always been rather bland in the whimsical environment of the Kirby series. He may be prominent, but he doesn't really represent Kirby all too well.
  • We don't need every single Zelda one-shot because they are most relevant in the newest game. People keep bringing up Fire Emblem to point out that Zelda could have one-shots if Sakurai isn't biased... but people also forget that Fire Emblem's one-shots are its ONLY main characters. Zelda's one-shots are still on a lower tier than the Triforce trio, and that's what makes most of them unworthy.
  • We don't need every Pokémon from the most recent generation. Sure Pokémon has gotten lucky with Greninja; sure Pokémon thrives on having such a rich and diverse cast. But it would be best for Pokémon to be held to the standard that the most iconic ones that are both popular and appear frequently in promotion. Pikachu, the Gen 1 starters, Mewtwo, and Lucario has stayed there, but we shouldn't repeat the situations of Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar, who have all fallen off in prominence or are guaranteed to fall off by next game.
On the other hand, here are some characters I feel we DO need:
  • Dixie Kong, (semi-)echo of Diddy or not, would add to the pool of Donkey Kong representation well as she is the series' tritagonist. As long as her hair abilities are intact, she would fully complete the Donkey Kong cast in a way such that other mainstays like Cranky or Funky would add nothing more.
  • Skull Kid, while effectively a one-shot, DOES add to Zelda's pool of representation. He would be an actual good representation of the series' storied history one-shots, even moreso than Sheik. Zelda doesn't need a load of one-shots, but on Skull Kid's enduring popularity and the fact that he represents Zelda's golden age (unlike Midna who represents the Wii-era decline), he should be the single one-shot to end them all.
  • Speaking of Zelda, this is more of a character change, but Zelda's existing representation quality is honestly rather poor. Three of the characters are Link with similar movesets, and Zelda and Ganondorf's portrayals neglect their signature abilities. And Sheik was a fluke pick. It would improve Zelda's quality of representation to have them semi-revamped at least, Zelda and Ganon especially. Its good quantity of representation does not excuse this.
  • In general, we need to take what Piranha Plant started and make more enemies playable. This is an interesting facet of many series that has gotten long overlooked in Smash, and Piranha Plant opens the doors for them. That being said, there should be two caveats: first that the enemies themselves are recognizable and not further joke picks, and that they can fulfill "Mascot Mook" status. So no Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes, but more things like Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen.
  • We need MORE Fire Emblem characters... that are enduringly popular. They shouldn't be shoehorning characters from the most recent installment like they did Robin, Lucina, and Corrin just because they are recent. Instead, they should shoot for the characters that have stayed popular. Lyn, Hector, Micaiah, and Celica have all remained quite popular since their debuts (or remake in Celica's case). Hell, I'd even say Chrom was a step in the right direction since he has stayed popular in the years since, unlike Robin and Corrin.
So there you have it. I understand characters being judged in relation to how the represent a series, but I just want to be how, not how much.
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,665
#2
What even is that Bandana Dee point? You say his moveset wouldn't bring anything new cause he'd be like Meta Knight (except, ya know, it's a spear so he gets a longer disjoint and, well, spear moves) but you also say it'd be out of place in Kirby. Pick one! Do you think he's out of place too?

Also, you seem to think the Awakening gang only got in for recency...when Chrom is the only FE rep besides Marth to not be from the most recent game which is something you later noted. Consistency. And Lucina has certainly shown lasting popularity. Also, neither Robin is unpopular (though the Smash community would make you think Male Robin is, ignore them). Male Corrin is really the only one that may classify as unpopular.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
3,466
#3
I said I would make a topic about how people are caring too much about quantity over quality in representation. I'm keeping my promise.

Because why do you think people care so much about "number of reps per franchise"? People expect the more popular franchises to get the lion's share of character representation. People also believe that franchises with more character variety should have more characters. But what I'm seeing is way too much wanting for characters just because "this franchise needs more", or worse: "because less popular franchise X has more, more popular franchise Y needs even more".

Really, I don't mind the idea that certain franchises need more characters. But wouldn't it be better to judge how characters add to the quality of representation? We shouldn't be judging on how much of a series is represented, but how well they add to a series' representation. How about instead of, "Does this character fill a quota needed by X series?", we can ask, "Does this character represent an integral facet of their franchise OR does this character encompass the spirit of their games?" To put it more simply, we need less "This series needs MORE reps" and more "This series needs BETTER reps".

In these terms, here are some characters we DON'T need:
  • We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.
  • We don't need more F-Zero characters. Captain Falcon encompasses the high-speed spirit of F-Zero in himself that adding another would either stray too far from F-Zero or would be redundant.
  • We don't need Bandana Waddle Dee. He is being pushed as a "fourth wheel" to the main trio of Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight by HAL, true. But that's the only reason people push for him so much. Not only does his spear moveset add nothing new as he would be just another small disjoint character like Meta Knight, but his moveset has always been rather bland in the whimsical environment of the Kirby series. He may be prominent, but he doesn't really represent Kirby all too well.
  • We don't need every single Zelda one-shot because they are most relevant in the newest game. People keep bringing up Fire Emblem to point out that Zelda could have one-shots if Sakurai isn't biased... but people also forget that Fire Emblem's one-shots are its ONLY main characters. Zelda's one-shots are still on a lower tier than the Triforce trio, and that's what makes most of them unworthy.
  • We don't need every Pokémon from the most recent generation. Sure Pokémon has gotten lucky with Greninja; sure Pokémon thrives on having such a rich and diverse cast. But it would be best for Pokémon to be held to the standard that the most iconic ones that are both popular and appear frequently in promotion. Pikachu, the Gen 1 starters, Mewtwo, and Lucario has stayed there, but we shouldn't repeat the situations of Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar, who have all fallen off in prominence or are guaranteed to fall off by next game.
On the other hand, here are some characters I feel we DO need:
  • Dixie Kong, (semi-)echo of Diddy or not, would add to the pool of Donkey Kong representation well as she is the series' tritagonist. As long as her hair abilities are intact, she would fully complete the Donkey Kong cast in a way such that other mainstays like Cranky or Funky would add nothing more.
  • Skull Kid, while effectively a one-shot, DOES add to Zelda's pool of representation. He would be an actual good representation of the series' storied history one-shots, even moreso than Sheik. Zelda doesn't need a load of one-shots, but on Skull Kid's enduring popularity and the fact that he represents Zelda's golden age (unlike Midna who represents the Wii-era decline), he should be the single one-shot to end them all.
  • Speaking of Zelda, this is more of a character change, but Zelda's existing representation quality is honestly rather poor. Three of the characters are Link with similar movesets, and Zelda and Ganondorf's portrayals neglect their signature abilities. And Sheik was a fluke pick. It would improve Zelda's quality of representation to have them semi-revamped at least, Zelda and Ganon especially. Its good quantity of representation does not excuse this.
  • In general, we need to take what Piranha Plant started and make more enemies playable. This is an interesting facet of many series that has gotten long overlooked in Smash, and Piranha Plant opens the doors for them. That being said, there should be two caveats: first that the enemies themselves are recognizable and not further joke picks, and that they can fulfill "Mascot Mook" status. So no Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes, but more things like Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen.
  • We need MORE Fire Emblem characters... that are enduringly popular. They shouldn't be shoehorning characters from the most recent installment like they did Robin, Lucina, and Corrin just because they are recent. Instead, they should shoot for the characters that have stayed popular. Lyn, Hector, Micaiah, and Celica have all remained quite popular since their debuts (or remake in Celica's case). Hell, I'd even say Chrom was a step in the right direction since he has stayed popular in the years since, unlike Robin and Corrin.
So there you have it. I understand characters being judged in relation to how the represent a series, but I just want to be how, not how much.
I actually agree with many of your points, or have a similar opinion, but I have a pair of questions about your comments.

1.- Bandana Dee is definitely wanted for being essencially the fourth main character of Kirby; but isn't only that, Bandana Dee actually represents elements that aren't actually part of Smash Bros, which includes the use of a Spear, that actually works quite differently of a Sword, the most similar thing we have to a "Spear-Hitbox" are the Belmont's Vampire Killer (which is a whip), also, Waddle Dee in general fit as one of these extremely iconic "mooks" (and Bandana Dee is the perfect character to represent them) and in fact he would be more appealing than a Goomba or a Bokoblin (because the Waddle Dees are very popular, specially in Japan).

2.- I think most of the modern lords have endured popularity, probably the biggest exceptions has been Eliwood (outshined for his fellow main characters) and Corrin (the male one is actually unpopular now, the female one is losing popularity slowly but steadily).

__

But in general the quality of representation should be the most important stuff; how the character represent themselves and their games.
 
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Xquirtle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
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#4
It seems very likely that we will continue to get FE characters from the new games. To that end, Robin and Corrin are two of the more unique and interesting designs in smash. Both are mechanically complex in the way that we would like to see our DLC look. They just suffer from "not high tier" syndrome in Ultimate. Regardless, they are two of the most iconic characters for the FE revival in the west that came around with Awakening's phat meta score.

I do agree with you in general. Like i actually don't particularly care where the new DLC comes from if it is mechanically interesting and not blatantly stupid / troll. I think Piranha plant was basically garbage and should not even be considered a DLC character though. It was probably an unfinished joke character to add to the base roster, and I'm perfectly fine with it staying in garbage tier since the character is inherently obnoxious and will be good for all of the wrong reasons if buffed.

Putting my Plant tangent to the side, I do think that Nintendo will likely fill all of the DLC slots with Joker-esque "welcome the the switch" / nintendo triple A release main characters. They just make for cool DLC that virtually everybody will buy and it advertises their new store titles.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#5
Also, you seem to think the Awakening gang only got in for recency...when Chrom is the only FE rep besides Marth to not be from the most recent game which is something you later noted. Consistency. And Lucina has certainly shown lasting popularity. Also, neither Robin is unpopular (though the Smash community would make you think Male Robin is, ignore them). Male Corrin is really the only one that may classify as unpopular.
I totally don't like making assumptions so don't take this as me being a ****, but I'm willing to believe that Robin and Lucina were only added because Awakening was the most recent game. Unless you can provide me evidence proving the contrary, such as fantastic game sales or Sakurai deconfirming what I said himself. Those characters being added for the sake of recency just makes the most sense in my opinion. Smash 4 development began in March 2012 when Sakurai finished Kid Icarus Uprising, and Awakening came out in April 2012, so I feel like it would've been too early to add Robin and Lucina based on Awakening's popularity because the player base for that game wouldn't have had enough time to develop by the time Sakurai created the roster (which he notes is always the first step in the process of creating a Smash game).

You know what, I take part of what I said back because Robin was definitely a unique character Sakurai could have observed and snagged from Awakening even before Awakening blew up in popularity. I do feel like Lucina could've been merely shoe-horned in, though, and if there's no evidence proving that wrong, I'm going to continue to believe that... That's not to say that Lucina is a bad character or anything like that, so I hope you won't take this as me bashing the character.



On a separate note, the most interesting series I find in Smash Bros is EarthBound (my biases aside). It's one of the most niche franchises on the roster, yet has quite a substantial amount of content. I don't see people discussing this too often, and frankly I'm just glad Sakurai is allowing this finished franchise to live on with a legacy.
Characters: :ultness:, :ultlucas:

Stages: Onett, Fourside, New Pork City, Magicant.

Music:
  • Pollyanna (I Believe in You)
  • Humoresque of a Little Dog
  • Magicant (Ultimate)
  • Magicant (3DS/Wii U)
  • Bein' Friends
  • Snowman
  • Onett/Winters
  • Fourside
  • Smiles and Tears
  • Mother 3 Love Theme
  • Unfounded Revenge
  • You Call This a Utopia?
  • Porky's Theme
Spirits: Ninten, Lloyd, Teddy, EVE, Flying Man, Starman, Paula, Poo, Buzz Buzz, Master Belch, Flint, Boney, Duster, Kumatora, Salsa, Absolutely Safe Capsule, Masked Man, Claus, Ana, Jeff, Ness' Father, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom, Hinawa, Ultimate Chimera, Ness, Lucas.

Items: Franklin Badge, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom.

Assist Trophies: Jeff, Starman.

Quillion Quillion What are your opinions on this? You imply that quality over quantity makes a series' representation more special, yet I would argue this series (which would be obscure without Smash Bros.) is full of nothing but quality content, even if there's a lot of it.
 
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Joined
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1,665
#8
I totally don't like making assumptions so don't take this as me being a ****, but I'm willing to believe that Robin and Lucina were only added because Awakening was the most recent game. Unless you can provide me evidence proving the contrary, such as fantastic game sales or Sakurai deconfirming what I said himself. Those characters being added for the sake of recency just makes the most sense in my opinion. Smash 4 development began in March 2012 when Sakurai finished Kid Icarus Uprising, and Awakening came out in April 2012, so I feel like it would've been too early to add Robin and Lucina based on Awakening's popularity because the player base for that game wouldn't have had enough time to develop by the time Sakurai created the roster (which he notes is always the first step in the process of creating a Smash game).

You know what, I take part of what I said back because Robin was definitely a unique character Sakurai could have observed and snagged from Awakening even before Awakening blew up in popularity. I do feel like Lucina could've been merely shoe-horned in, though, and if there's no evidence proving that wrong, I'm going to continue to believe that... That's not to say that Lucina is a bad character or anything like that, so I hope you won't take this as me bashing the character.



On a separate note, the most interesting series I find in Smash Bros is EarthBound (my biases aside). It's one of the most niche franchises on the roster, yet has quite a substantial amount of content. I don't see people discussing this too often, and frankly I'm just glad Sakurai is allowing this finished franchise to live on with a legacy.
Characters: :ultness:, :ultlucas:

Stages: Onett, Fourside, New Pork City, Magicant.

Music:
  • Pollyanna (I Believe in You)
  • Humoresque of a Little Dog
  • Magicant (Ultimate)
  • Magicant (3DS/Wii U)
  • Bein' Friends
  • Snowman
  • Onett/Winters
  • Fourside
  • Smiles and Tears
  • Mother 3 Love Theme
  • Unfounded Revenge
  • You Call This a Utopia?
  • Porky's Theme
Spirits: Ninten, Lloyd, Teddy, EVE, Flying Man, Starman, Paula, Poo, Buzz Buzz, Master Belch, Flint, Boney, Duster, Kumatora, Salsa, Absolutely Safe Capsule, Masked Man, Claus, Ana, Jeff, Ness' Father, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom, Hinawa, Ultimate Chimera, Ness, Lucas.

Items: Franklin Badge, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom.

Assist Trophies: Jeff, Starman.

Quillion Quillion What are your opinions on this? You imply that quality over quantity makes a series' representation more special, yet I would argue this series (which would be obscure without Smash Bros.) is full of nothing but quality content, even if there's a lot of it.
Okay, perhaps I should have worded it differently, but all of Awakening gang enjoys lasting popularity especially Lucina (who may be the first FE fighter that was actually popular in the mainstream before Smash). Would they have known they would have that when making the game? Probably not, but they do, so there isn't a problem. I wasn't thinking several years back but rather in the present where they do have the popularity. I mean, Chrom did claw his way back from the aether.
 
Joined
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Messages
3,124
#9
To Arthur97 Arthur97 , Troykv Troykv , Mr. Nintendo Mr. Nintendo : Bandanna Waddle Dee is the fourth main character, yes, but I don't think he'll add anything to Kirby's quality of representation. Mainly because he didn't really add anything to Kirby other than being "fourth wheel" in the main trio. Think Max and Bonnie in the Pokémon anime as a point of comparison.

As for the Awakening trio, TheBeastHimself TheBeastHimself has it right: the Robin and Lucina were mainly added for the sake of recency; they just got lucky with how Lucina mainly endures in popularity. However, Chrom was added due to lasting popularity.

On a separate note, the most interesting series I find in Smash Bros is EarthBound (my biases aside). It's one of the most niche franchises on the roster, yet has quite a substantial amount of content. I don't see people discussing this too often, and frankly I'm just glad Sakurai is allowing this finished franchise to live on with a legacy.
Characters: :ultness:, :ultlucas:

Stages: Onett, Fourside, New Pork City, Magicant.

Music:
  • Pollyanna (I Believe in You)
  • Humoresque of a Little Dog
  • Magicant (Ultimate)
  • Magicant (3DS/Wii U)
  • Bein' Friends
  • Snowman
  • Onett/Winters
  • Fourside
  • Smiles and Tears
  • Mother 3 Love Theme
  • Unfounded Revenge
  • You Call This a Utopia?
  • Porky's Theme
Spirits: Ninten, Lloyd, Teddy, EVE, Flying Man, Starman, Paula, Poo, Buzz Buzz, Master Belch, Flint, Boney, Duster, Kumatora, Salsa, Absolutely Safe Capsule, Masked Man, Claus, Ana, Jeff, Ness' Father, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom, Hinawa, Ultimate Chimera, Ness, Lucas.

Items: Franklin Badge, Mr. Saturn, Ramblin' Evil Mushroom.

Assist Trophies: Jeff, Starman.

Quillion Quillion What are your opinions on this? You imply that quality over quantity makes a series' representation more special, yet I would argue this series (which would be obscure without Smash Bros.) is full of nothing but quality content, even if there's a lot of it.
I was admittedly referring more to characters, but I think EarthBound/MOTHER's representation is fantastic in terms of quality. None of their additions really feel like they're being there to pad things out.
 
Joined
Jun 7, 2016
Messages
1,665
#10
Adding from the most recent FE has served them mostly well. If you want to critique it, go after the Corrins, but all the others have stood the test of time. It just seems like a complaint for the sake of complaining almost. Also, this whole term of "quality" is kind of flawed here. Why wouldn't Bandanna Dee add quality? A new and unique moveset, represents modern Kirby. Seems good enough to me.
 
Joined
May 10, 2017
Messages
936
#11
I only disagreed with, Cranky Kong would be icing on the cake. Cranky Kong would completely establish Donkey Kong reps, he'd be the character you didn't think was necessary. You'd get used to him.

Lyn, I since stopped supporting but I do get the urge when I'm reminded of her significance, your OP to be specific.
 

TheBeastHimself

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#12
To Arthur97 Arthur97 , Troykv Troykv , Mr. Nintendo Mr. Nintendo : Bandanna Waddle Dee is the fourth main character, yes, but I don't think he'll add anything to Kirby's quality of representation. Mainly because he didn't really add anything to Kirby other than being "fourth wheel" in the main trio. Think Max and Bonnie in the Pokémon anime as a point of comparison.
I don't think Bandana Dee needs to do anything significant in order to make it on the roster, which is what I believe you're saying. Look at Daisy, she's not really booming with significance, but some people interpret her as representing the Mario spin-off games. Same with Bandana Dee, he's not really booming with significance, but some people interpret him as a representation of Modern Kirby, and being rebranded as the 4th main character means that he's a main character. Main characters typically get added to Smash...
 
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#13
I don't think Bandana Dee needs to do anything significant in order to make it on the roster, which is what I believe you're saying. Look at Daisy, she's not really booming with significance, but some people interpret her as representing the Mario spin-off games. Same with Bandana Dee, he's not really booming with significance, but some people interpret him as a representation of Modern Kirby, and being rebranded as the 4th main character means that he's a main character. Main characters typically get added to Smash...
...Eventually. Looking at you, Chrom.
 
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
103
#14
I said I would make a topic about how people are caring too much about quantity over quality in representation. I'm keeping my promise.

Because why do you think people care so much about "number of reps per franchise"? People expect the more popular franchises to get the lion's share of character representation. People also believe that franchises with more character variety should have more characters. But what I'm seeing is way too much wanting for characters just because "this franchise needs more", or worse: "because less popular franchise X has more, more popular franchise Y needs even more".

Really, I don't mind the idea that certain franchises need more characters. But wouldn't it be better to judge how characters add to the quality of representation? We shouldn't be judging on how much of a series is represented, but how well they add to a series' representation. How about instead of, "Does this character fill a quota needed by X series?", we can ask, "Does this character represent an integral facet of their franchise OR does this character encompass the spirit of their games?" To put it more simply, we need less "This series needs MORE reps" and more "This series needs BETTER reps".

In these terms, here are some characters we DON'T need:
  • We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.
  • We don't need more F-Zero characters. Captain Falcon encompasses the high-speed spirit of F-Zero in himself that adding another would either stray too far from F-Zero or would be redundant.
  • We don't need Bandana Waddle Dee. He is being pushed as a "fourth wheel" to the main trio of Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight by HAL, true. But that's the only reason people push for him so much. Not only does his spear moveset add nothing new as he would be just another small disjoint character like Meta Knight, but his moveset has always been rather bland in the whimsical environment of the Kirby series. He may be prominent, but he doesn't really represent Kirby all too well.
  • We don't need every single Zelda one-shot because they are most relevant in the newest game. People keep bringing up Fire Emblem to point out that Zelda could have one-shots if Sakurai isn't biased... but people also forget that Fire Emblem's one-shots are its ONLY main characters. Zelda's one-shots are still on a lower tier than the Triforce trio, and that's what makes most of them unworthy.
  • We don't need every Pokémon from the most recent generation. Sure Pokémon has gotten lucky with Greninja; sure Pokémon thrives on having such a rich and diverse cast. But it would be best for Pokémon to be held to the standard that the most iconic ones that are both popular and appear frequently in promotion. Pikachu, the Gen 1 starters, Mewtwo, and Lucario has stayed there, but we shouldn't repeat the situations of Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar, who have all fallen off in prominence or are guaranteed to fall off by next game.
On the other hand, here are some characters I feel we DO need:
  • Dixie Kong, (semi-)echo of Diddy or not, would add to the pool of Donkey Kong representation well as she is the series' tritagonist. As long as her hair abilities are intact, she would fully complete the Donkey Kong cast in a way such that other mainstays like Cranky or Funky would add nothing more.
  • Skull Kid, while effectively a one-shot, DOES add to Zelda's pool of representation. He would be an actual good representation of the series' storied history one-shots, even moreso than Sheik. Zelda doesn't need a load of one-shots, but on Skull Kid's enduring popularity and the fact that he represents Zelda's golden age (unlike Midna who represents the Wii-era decline), he should be the single one-shot to end them all.
  • Speaking of Zelda, this is more of a character change, but Zelda's existing representation quality is honestly rather poor. Three of the characters are Link with similar movesets, and Zelda and Ganondorf's portrayals neglect their signature abilities. And Sheik was a fluke pick. It would improve Zelda's quality of representation to have them semi-revamped at least, Zelda and Ganon especially. Its good quantity of representation does not excuse this.
  • In general, we need to take what Piranha Plant started and make more enemies playable. This is an interesting facet of many series that has gotten long overlooked in Smash, and Piranha Plant opens the doors for them. That being said, there should be two caveats: first that the enemies themselves are recognizable and not further joke picks, and that they can fulfill "Mascot Mook" status. So no Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes, but more things like Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen.
  • We need MORE Fire Emblem characters... that are enduringly popular. They shouldn't be shoehorning characters from the most recent installment like they did Robin, Lucina, and Corrin just because they are recent. Instead, they should shoot for the characters that have stayed popular. Lyn, Hector, Micaiah, and Celica have all remained quite popular since their debuts (or remake in Celica's case). Hell, I'd even say Chrom was a step in the right direction since he has stayed popular in the years since, unlike Robin and Corrin.
So there you have it. I understand characters being judged in relation to how the represent a series, but I just want to be how, not how much.
I can fully agree with the first point for Dixie being the only Kong necessary for full DK representation, and I kind of agree with the last point for Fire Emblem. While I personally don't care if Bandanna Dee gets in or not, I find it a little odd to dismiss him and then ask for Goomba and Bokoblin, especially in a thread where you're asking for quality of representation. At least Dee is an actual character in his own right.
If you truly want to avoid one shots, rather than going with Skull Kid over Midna just because of your personal preference, I would say Impa would be the best pick since she's one of the most prominent recurring characters outside of the main trio that has a major role in numerous games. I would put Skull Kid and Midna on equal grounds at best, or even Midna slightly above him due to her greater role and far bigger character development in the game she's in.

And no, we don't need more generic enemies. Piranha Plant was more than enough (I also don't see the difference between the enemies you listed as Joke characters (Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes) and the ones you said we needed more of (Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen), they're pretty much all Joke characters and on equal ground). Bandanna Dee is an exception to this because Dee is a separate character from his species like Yoshi and Toad. Speaking of which, Toad would be a much better pick than Goomba because of his prominent playable appearances in numerous Mario games, both in spin offs and main series titles.

I would love to get the likes of Lyn, Hector, Celica, and Micaiah in some day, but I would disagree with the notion that Robin and Corrin are not as popular as Chrom (Lucina has pretty much become one of the mascots of the series at this point as well). And while it would be great to get better quality Pokemon, the fact of the matter is that they will always add in Pokemon and Fire Emblem characters from the most recent games for the sake of promotion. Nintendo is a business at the end of the day, and what is the popular fad character at the time that will generate the most excitement is what is most important for them, whether we like it or not.

I would mildly agree that we don't need more F-Zero characters, but if we are to go by this, we don't need Starman as another Earthbound character either.

I do agree with your notion in general though. Quality of the representation should be the most important factor.
 
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#15
To Arthur97 Arthur97 , Troykv Troykv , Mr. Nintendo Mr. Nintendo : Bandanna Waddle Dee is the fourth main character, yes, but I don't think he'll add anything to Kirby's quality of representation. Mainly because he didn't really add anything to Kirby other than being "fourth wheel" in the main trio. Think Max and Bonnie in the Pokémon anime as a point of comparison.

As for the Awakening trio, TheBeastHimself TheBeastHimself has it right: the Robin and Lucina were mainly added for the sake of recency; they just got lucky with how Lucina mainly endures in popularity. However, Chrom was added due to lasting popularity.



I was admittedly referring more to characters, but I think EarthBound/MOTHER's representation is fantastic in terms of quality. None of their additions really feel like they're being there to pad things out.
Even if what you say is true (it's not, Spear =/= Sword, I mean wrestling was apparently good enough to get Incineroar in and we have plenty of characters who punch and kick) not having him is like not having Luigi.

Yeah Luigi doesn't really bring anything new. But he's important, and that should mean something.
 

Mario & Sonic Guy

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#16
Being a recurring character can apparently help a character's odds. With all the various characters that exist in the whole Legend of Zelda series, not too many of the major characters who are NOT named Link, Zelda, Ganondorf, or Ganon, are recurring.

However, of all the fighters who exist in the Smash Bros. series, Piranha Plant is the literal needle in a haystack. It's a generic enemy, and one who has never been playable, even in the Mario spin-off titles. How it got higher priority than someone like Toad can be very baffling. I would mention Waluigi too, but his spin-off only status is not a helping matter in this case.
 

Wunderwaft

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#17
I would mention Waluigi too, but his spin-off only status is not a helping matter in this case.
Even if Waluigi is a spin-off character, I wouldn't say he's beneath a piranha plant lol.

And I agree with the OP to a certain degree, we need better representation and not just simply more representation. Fire Emblem's representation is abysmal despite the number of playable characters.
 
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#18
Corrin uses a lance move of sorts. It's even referred to as such, so the idea of a pointed pole weapon like a spear isn't new in SSB. I know, it's not Bandana Waddle Dee (the actual name), but I don't see why he's more special than the "iconic" Marx.

As for quality over quantity, I agree, which is one reason why I'm rather reductionistic for characters. I've been told not everyone cares about the professional scene, and was even scoffed at by the word "professional". Keep laughing, since the core gamers want more competition.

I'd rather have a game where I'm not dealing with inconsistent nonsense like whiffs, or an acknowledged flaw about my main with no interest in correcting it. It's a big, "**** you" to me and others who main Samus/Dark Samus. Hell, full Charge Shot can be stopped by those fall-through platforms on stages like Battlefield.

Yes, I'm griping about SSBU. It's not perfect, it's not balanced, and I'm sure I'll hear, "It's more balanced than the previous games." No ****, that tends to happen and the excess characters can make it appear more "diverse", not because it is, but because more characters will make it seem that way. Eventually, once pro players overcome their character crisis, you'll start seeing fewer characters than before.

Simply put, fewer characters means more time to develop, less money to spend, fewer hours to help developers get more rest and spend more time with family. It also means a generally overall better experience for the gamer. But no, we have people who are never satisfied and want more, more, more. If you want to comment on how "angry" or "bitter" I sound, fine. Just give some substance instead of thinking you refuted me.
 
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#19
I kinda disagree with most of this thread, so I’ll take it step by step.

Because why do you think people care so much about "number of reps per franchise"? People expect the more popular franchises to get the lion's share of character representation. People also believe that franchises with more character variety should have more characters. But what I'm seeing is way too much wanting for characters just because "this franchise needs more", or worse: "because less popular franchise X has more, more popular franchise Y needs even more".

Really, I don't mind the idea that certain franchises need more characters. But wouldn't it be better to judge how characters add to the quality of representation? We shouldn't be judging on how much of a series is represented, but how well they add to a series' representation. How about instead of, "Does this character fill a quota needed by X series?", we can ask, "Does this character represent an integral facet of their franchise OR does this character encompass the spirit of their games?" To put it more simply, we need less "This series needs MORE reps" and more "This series needs BETTER reps".
The problem with this thinking, while good on the surface, is that most aspects of a franchise cannot be represented by one character. People want more characters to get better representation. Imagine if Mario was the only rep for his series in Smash Bros, then we’d be missing out on the Villain, aspects from Luigi’s Mansion, Galaxy representation, New Super Mario Bros representation, the princess we save, spin-off specific characters, and the generic enemies that Mario fights along the way.

You can make Mario himself as diverse as possible, but it’d be impossible to fully show off all the strengths of the Mario series without having many slots taken by its colorful cast.


Bigger franchises need more characters because they are big and to give people a full idea of what the franchise is and about, more is necessary. FE has multiple characters to show that the protagonist switches every game, Mario needs and should have his colorful and diverse cast follow him, and DK should get all 3 original protagonist and the villain as Donkey Kong was not the main character of a good amount of the DKC series, especially pre-Rare buyout.

In these terms, here are some characters we DON'T need:
Alright, I’ll just go over these on an individual basis.

We don't need to load various series with echoes and semi-echoes just because their quota needs to be filled or because Game X needs to be represented. Just because Fire Emblem does it doesn't mean it's a good thing, nor would it work for other franchises.
Echoes are a new opportunity to get in some favorite characters that wouldn’t have been able to make it otherwise, especially 3rd party. Honestly, I don’t understand your problem with echoes as most I’ve heard are pretty justified. Shadow is wanted as he is a big part of Sonic, especially in Nintendo history as SA2 was the first Sonic game to be put on a Nintendo system. Mrs. Pac-Man is also a big one, but honestly I’m still surprised she isn’t in as she definitely carries a legacy as big as Pac-Man himself. Maybe Pokemon and FE fans are requesting more echoes, but I don’t see a problem with that as they do switch off characters.

We don't need more F-Zero characters. Captain Falcon encompasses the high-speed spirit of F-Zero in himself that adding another would either stray too far from F-Zero or would be redundant.
There are more aspects to F-Zero than the high speed gameplay, one of which being the crazy cast of characters that could be given life if we added a character like Black Shadow, who completely encompasses the absurd and Saturday Morning like feel of the F-Zero racers.

We don't need Bandana Waddle Dee. He is being pushed as a "fourth wheel" to the main trio of Kirby, Dedede, and Meta Knight by HAL, true. But that's the only reason people push for him so much. Not only does his spear moveset add nothing new as he would be just another small disjoint character like Meta Knight, but his moveset has always been rather bland in the whimsical environment of the Kirby series. He may be prominent, but he doesn't really represent Kirby all too well.
This one hits me personally. BD is a big character in his own right and he plays nothing like Meta Knight in the titles where they are together. The spear is a completely new weapon that has yet to be used in Smash. BD is also the 4th main character in modern titles, which has been a huge issue as Sakurai only puts in content from the 90s, so we are missing out on a good 2 decades worth of Kirby content. In effect, yes, BD would actually impact Kirby’s representation as a whole and the quality as we’d finally start moving into the untalked about two decades of neglect by Smash.

  • We don't need every Pokémon from the most recent generation. Sure Pokémon has gotten lucky with Greninja; sure Pokémon thrives on having such a rich and diverse cast. But it would be best for Pokémon to be held to the standard that the most iconic ones that are both popular and appear frequently in promotion. Pikachu, the Gen 1 starters, Mewtwo, and Lucario has stayed there, but we shouldn't repeat the situations of Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar, who have all fallen off in prominence or are guaranteed to fall off by next game.
This one actually kinda makes me mad, because this is the typical Gen 1 BS that really holds Pokemon back. The reason why it’s great that we get characters like Incineroar is because Pokemon has more than 1 generation and it is important to show new Pokemon from the new gens as it shows that Pokemon can still make icons. Look, yes Gen 1 made many recognizable faces, but to act like the other gens shouldn’t get due to unrecognizability is sad and really devalues Pokemon as a series. I know you didn’t specially say this, but the fact that you only consider the gen 1 Pokemon good enough to come back with only Lucario as the exception. Ultimately, if Smash did what you say then Gen 1 would essentially be the only part of Pokemon represented, and would really hurt the franchise overall.

We need MORE Fire Emblem characters... that are enduringly popular. They shouldn't be shoehorning characters from the most recent installment like they did Robin, Lucina, and Corrin just because they are recent. Instead, they should shoot for the characters that have stayed popular. Lyn, Hector, Micaiah, and Celica have all remained quite popular since their debuts (or remake in Celica's case). Hell, I'd even say Chrom was a step in the right direction since he has stayed popular in the years since, unlike Robin and Corrin.
I feel like just commenting on this. Honestly, I don’t think many of the characters you mentioned were extremely popular by any means until FE Heroes and this new random divide in the FE community. Also taking out Robin and Lucina wouldn’t fix anything as now the Awakening trio and Marth are the mascots of FE, so you’d be killing off the biggest characters
 
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#20
I feel like just commenting on this. Honestly, I don’t think many of the characters you mentioned were extremely popular by any means until FE Heroes and this new random divide in the FE community. Also taking out Robin and Lucina wouldn’t fix anything as now the Awakening trio and Marth are the mascots of FE, so you’d be killing off the biggest characters
The divide is nothing new. It's been around almost as long as Awakening.
 
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#21
I feel like just commenting on this. Honestly, I don’t think many of the characters you mentioned were extremely popular by any means until FE Heroes and this new random divide in the FE community. Also taking out Robin and Lucina wouldn’t fix anything as now the Awakening trio and Marth are the mascots of FE, so you’d be killing off the biggest characters
Well; if we're fair; only Ike and Roy had an opportunity to appear with the big boys before losing relevance (that was pretty notable specially with characters like Micaiah that somehow survived been overshadow for bigger news and games appearing alongside hers).

It was quite exciting to see the Modern Lords (except Eliwood) appear in the Top 40 in Fire Emblem Heroes (I'm falling about the first one, the least influenced for FEH itself; and it give the 3DS games the biggest advantage) despite characters other that the Smash Bunch been overshadow for most of the Awakening/Fates Cast in overall exposition in the last 10 years.
 
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#22
I'm somewhat hesitant to take CYL at face value, but I think Awakening overall had the most votes, and one of the more telling parts might be that it and Fates had more minor characters do rather well (like Owain, Henry, Cordelia, etc.).
 
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lucasla

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#23
I also dont care too much about characters anymore. I would be happy with Crash and Rayman, but other than these, I'm more than satisfyed with the roster of characters of Ultimate. I would also preffer some changes in characters movesets, to update them a bit to abilities compatible with more recent games. Specially Mario, that I never really liked the FLOOD, and I think that this hability could be changed for a Cappy throw, with the same effect of push enemies back, but updated visuals to remind the new game and make the character feels fresh.

Anyway, more than new characters or updated characters, I would change all this for new modes with a good progress feeling. I like to have challenges to complete and have the feeling of progressing in levels or challenges. I had it partially in WoL, but WoL was something that was more big than deep, so while it was cool for what it was, it wanst really amazing.
 
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#24
The divide is nothing new. It's been around almost as long as Awakening.
Ehh...Regarding Smash it is. Plus it really starting getting notable after Fates and especially within Heroes release.

Well; if we're fair; only Ike and Roy had an opportunity to appear with the big boys before losing relevance (that was pretty notable specially with characters like Micaiah that somehow survived been overshadow for bigger news and games appearing alongside hers).

It was quite exciting to see the Modern Lords (except Eliwood) appear in the Top 40 in Fire Emblem Heroes (I'm falling about the first one, the least influenced for FEH itself; and it give the 3DS games the biggest advantage) despite characters other that the Smash Bunch been overshadow for most of the Awakening/Fates Cast in overall exposition in the last 10 years.
I guess my point was that FE wasn’t really notable till Awakening, and fan favorites were a lot less defined. It’s hard to fault Sakurai on not picking long lasting characters when the series really didn’t have any for a majority of its life.
 

TheDuke54

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#25
I'm all for more underling fighters. I don't think they should go crazy though. Before Piranha Plant, yeah no one thought they would go that route. I'd say if they did make more underlings playable it should be three or so. Including PP.

As far as Fire Emblem relevancy and adding fighters because of the most recent game, they did that since Melee. If you think about it. Marth was chosen cause he started the franchise and Roy was chosen from their latest game. No one cared too much then or when Ike came to Brawl (recent game) cause it was only three fighters. Then Smash4 and Ult came in and a lot more were added in a short time. Robin, Lucina, Corrin (and Roy as dlc) and then Chrom escaped the smash ball.
 
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#26
I can fully agree with the first point for Dixie being the only Kong necessary for full DK representation, and I kind of agree with the last point for Fire Emblem. While I personally don't care if Bandanna Dee gets in or not, I find it a little odd to dismiss him and then ask for Goomba and Bokoblin, especially in a thread where you're asking for quality of representation. At least Dee is an actual character in his own right.
and no, we don't need more generic enemies. Piranha Plant was more than enough (I also don't see the difference between the enemies you listed as Joke characters (Gogols, Topis, or Knuckle Joes) and the ones you said we needed more of (Goombas, Bokoblins, and Starmen), they're pretty much all Joke characters and on equal ground). Bandanna Dee is an exception to this because Dee is a separate character from his species like Yoshi and Toad. Speaking of which, Toad would be a much better pick than Goomba because of his prominent playable appearances in numerous Mario games, both in spin offs and main series titles.
I don't care that enemies aren't characters in their own right. Enemies are an important facet of many of Smash's franchises, they have abilities that can be used to fight, and they appear frequently throughout their games. That's good enough for me, and this is why I think Piranha Plant has broadened Smash's horizons in a good way.

That said, I feel that enemies should be limited to the ones that are actually icons of their series AND/OR icons of gaming in general. That and they need a bunch of potential abilities to fill out a moveset. This is why Goomba or Bokoblin would work better than a Gogol (from niche RPG series), Topi (from obscure retro game), or Knuckle Joe (not exactly a Kirby icon, but at least assist material).

If you truly want to avoid one shots, rather than going with Skull Kid over Midna just because of your personal preference, I would say Impa would be the best pick since she's one of the most prominent recurring characters outside of the main trio that has a major role in numerous games. I would put Skull Kid and Midna on equal grounds at best, or even Midna slightly above him due to her greater role and far bigger character development in the game she's in.
I agree that Impa is at least iconic, but she's just not fighter material. Hyrule Warriors is a spinoff that Smash can't draw from. Not only that, her appearances are so wildly different that you can't really encompass her into one generalized design. Also, she's only been a side character, which downs her chances even further.

Zelda should by all means NOT go overboard with one-shots, but they absolutely should have at least one.

The problem with this thinking, while good on the surface, is that most aspects of a franchise cannot be represented by one character. People want more characters to get better representation. Imagine if Mario was the only rep for his series in Smash Bros, then we’d be missing out on the Villain, aspects from Luigi’s Mansion, Galaxy representation, New Super Mario Bros representation, the princess we save, spin-off specific characters, and the generic enemies that Mario fights along the way.

You can make Mario himself as diverse as possible, but it’d be impossible to fully show off all the strengths of the Mario series without having many slots taken by its colorful cast.

Bigger franchises need more characters because they are big and to give people a full idea of what the franchise is and about, more is necessary. FE has multiple characters to show that the protagonist switches every game, Mario needs and should have his colorful and diverse cast follow him, and DK should get all 3 original protagonist and the villain as Donkey Kong was not the main character of a good amount of the DKC series, especially pre-Rare buyout.
I'm not saying quantity is bad. I'm saying quantity over quality is bad. Giving more characters in order to give a fuller idea of a franchise instead of just because "it's big, so it needs more" is my definition of quality representation.

Yes, Luigi's aspects, Bowser's aspects, Peach's aspects, Jr.'s aspects, and Rosalina's aspects are all very integral AND they can't fit into Mario the character, that's exactly why I would say Mario as very high quality representation.

Echoes are a new opportunity to get in some favorite characters that wouldn’t have been able to make it otherwise, especially 3rd party. Honestly, I don’t understand your problem with echoes as most I’ve heard are pretty justified. Shadow is wanted as he is a big part of Sonic, especially in Nintendo history as SA2 was the first Sonic game to be put on a Nintendo system. Mrs. Pac-Man is also a big one, but honestly I’m still surprised she isn’t in as she definitely carries a legacy as big as Pac-Man himself. Maybe Pokemon and FE fans are requesting more echoes, but I don’t see a problem with that as they do switch off characters.
They are a new opportunity to put characters in, but they need to be selective with who to choose as well. One echo for Sonic, Pac-Man, and Mega Man is fair enough; Shadow, Ms. Pac, and Proto Man are both iconic and have played similarly to their counterparts in canon.

But stuff like Funky Kong just to make DK bigger in Smash? No, that's just a blind decision.

There are more aspects to F-Zero than the high speed gameplay, one of which being the crazy cast of characters that could be given life if we added a character like Black Shadow, who completely encompasses the absurd and Saturday Morning like feel of the F-Zero racers.
Captain Falcon by himself already captures the Saturday Morning spirit of F-Zero. They can't really afford to stick Captain Falcon's moveset onto more F-Zero characters, nor should they make up more movesets. They could do it for Falcon since he's the main character, but anything else just adds aspects that are unnecessary and/or redundant.

This one hits me personally. BD is a big character in his own right and he plays nothing like Meta Knight in the titles where they are together. The spear is a completely new weapon that has yet to be used in Smash. BD is also the 4th main character in modern titles, which has been a huge issue as Sakurai only puts in content from the 90s, so we are missing out on a good 2 decades worth of Kirby content. In effect, yes, BD would actually impact Kirby’s representation as a whole and the quality as we’d finally start moving into the untalked about two decades of neglect by Smash.
The issue is that people just want modern Kirby just because "it needs to be represented". No one is asking what kind of new AND interesting things modern Kirby representation can bring in the context of Smash, which is absolutely nothing.

The spear aesthetic wouldn't change that BD would be similar to Meta Knight. How would you feel if Spring Man got in from ARMS when we already have the Belmonts as the dedicated redonkulous long range fighters?

This one actually kinda makes me mad, because this is the typical Gen 1 BS that really holds Pokemon back. The reason why it’s great that we get characters like Incineroar is because Pokemon has more than 1 generation and it is important to show new Pokemon from the new gens as it shows that Pokemon can still make icons. Look, yes Gen 1 made many recognizable faces, but to act like the other gens shouldn’t get due to unrecognizability is sad and really devalues Pokemon as a series. I know you didn’t specially say this, but the fact that you only consider the gen 1 Pokemon good enough to come back with only Lucario as the exception. Ultimately, if Smash did what you say then Gen 1 would essentially be the only part of Pokemon represented, and would really hurt the franchise overall.
I did not say that the only Pokémon icons are in Gen 1; honestly, if you're bringing this up, YOU are the one that thinks this. I just want Pokémon that don't fall off in iconic status and popularity after their Gen like Jigglypuff did, and mark my words Incinceroar WILL fall off after his gen.

I feel like just commenting on this. Honestly, I don’t think many of the characters you mentioned were extremely popular by any means until FE Heroes and this new random divide in the FE community. Also taking out Robin and Lucina wouldn’t fix anything as now the Awakening trio and Marth are the mascots of FE, so you’d be killing off the biggest characters
True, but they were always very popular within Fire Emblem's fandom. The series' explosion in popularity brought them to a larger audience.
 
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#27
Fire Emblem doesn't need anymore reps and it doesn't matter if there are unique fighters when there are franchises like DK, Kirby, and Zelda for starters that are a million times more iconic, are underrepresented, and have potential unique fighters that give more color and variety to the game.
 
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#28
Fire Emblem doesn't need anymore reps and it doesn't matter if there are unique fighters when there are franchises like DK, Kirby, and Zelda for starters that are a million times more iconic, are underrepresented, and have potential unique fighters that give more color and variety to the game.
What they all need is BETTER reps, not more reps, including Fire Emblem. If there are unique fighters in all franchises that are iconic of their series, they should absolutely go for them.

In terms of quality, Fire Emblem underrepresents its own variety, DK is almost good (just needs Dixie), Kirby is all set (has its main trio), and Zelda's cast is poorly represented but with good quantity.
 

TheDuke54

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#29
Piranha Plant also has ridiculous range. I don't think anyone would complain if Springman got into the roster. Hell, I was half expecting him to be in the game when I saw the Splatoon/Smash trailer. There were tons of theories about seeing his shadow in the silhouettes.

I do have to agree with some of the Fire Emblem fighters being very similar in appearance. Marth, Luciana, and Chrom come straight to mind. I know two of them are supposed to be semi-like clones, or close enough. We're still going to get more Fire Emblem represenation though, either in this dlc packet or the next game. Hopefully they pick someone that's not like a fourth blue haired sibling or whatever. Or fifth if you want to throw Ike in the pot.
 

Mushroomguy12

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#30
I don't care that enemies aren't characters in their own right. Enemies are an important facet of many of Smash's franchises, they have abilities that can be used to fight, and they appear frequently throughout their games. That's good enough for me, and this is why I think Piranha Plant has broadened Smash's horizons in a good way.

That said, I feel that enemies should be limited to the ones that are actually icons of their series AND/OR icons of gaming in general. That and they need a bunch of potential abilities to fill out a moveset. This is why Goomba or Bokoblin would work better than a Gogol (from niche RPG series), Topi (from obscure retro game), or Knuckle Joe (not exactly a Kirby icon, but at least assist material).
Sorry, I disagree. We don't need generic mooks in Smash when there are a million other higher quality characters to be chosen from.
A Goomba or Bokoblin would add nothing to Smash in terms of quality.

I agree that Impa is at least iconic, but she's just not fighter material.
I don't see how Impa is not fighter material while Skull Kid is.

Hyrule Warriors is a spinoff that Smash can't draw from.
You realize that Hyrule Warriors isn't the only appearance of Impa where she fights, right? (Her most major appearance was in Skyward Sword where she played a huge role in the story and did plenty of fighting). Also, since when is Smash forbidden to draw from spin offs?

Not only that, her appearances are so wildly different that you can't really encompass her into one generalized design. Also, she's only been a side character, which downs her chances even further.

Zelda should by all means NOT go overboard with one-shots, but they absolutely should have at least one.
That applies to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, and the solution they went with was picking their most popular or recent design. You could easily do the same with Impa, going with her Skyward Sword design. And again, I don't see why her being a side character matters when you're asking for characters like Skull Kid, who literally only appears in cutscenes that take 10% of the game, or generic mooks like Goomba. Impa has a far bigger story role than any of the one shots as Zelda's royal attendant.
 
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#31
Sorry, I disagree. We don't need generic mooks in Smash when there are a million other higher quality characters to be chosen from.
A Goomba or Bokoblin would add nothing to Smash in terms of quality.

I'm not discussing this any further.

I don't see how Impa is not fighter material while Skull Kid is.

You realize that Hyrule Warriors isn't the only appearance of Impa where she fights, right? (Her most major appearance was in Skyward Sword where she played a huge role in the story and did plenty of fighting). Also, since when is Smash forbidden to draw from spin offs?
Yeah, just one cutscene. Taking from spinoffs is fine for Mario since the spinoffs are such an integral part of the Mario franchise. It's not fine for Zelda, which is intentionally spinoff-light.

That applies to Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf, and the solution they went with was picking their most popular or recent design. You could easily do the same with Impa, going with her Skyward Sword design. And again, I don't see why her being a side character matters when you're asking for characters like Skull Kid, who literally only appears in cutscenes that take 10% of the game, or generic mooks like Goomba. Impa has a far bigger story role than any of the one shots as Zelda's royal attendant.
The thing with Zelda, Link, and Ganon is that they have similar abilities and body types throughout their various forms. Impa does not, and while she appears frequently as Zelda's attendant, her role has NEVER exceeded that of the major one-shots.
 

Xquirtle

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#32
Fire Emblem doesn't need anymore reps and it doesn't matter if there are unique fighters when there are franchises like DK, Kirby, and Zelda for starters that are a million times more iconic, are underrepresented, and have potential unique fighters that give more color and variety to the game.
Well FE is 100% going to get at least one more. There is a new FE game launching on the switch in the near future. Might as well just accept this one and hope that its a waifu with something other than a sword.

Also, you forgot Pokemon which is arguably their largest franchise of the last 2 decades. I'd be all for more pokemon since they have almost limitless potential to be super canon and also extremely fresh designs. I'm still pulling for a Pokemon Trainer 2 which would operate as PT 1 does but with the starters from the upcoming game.
 
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#33
Well FE is 100% going to get at least one more. There is a new FE game launching on the switch in the near future. Might as well just accept this one and hope that its a waifu with something other than a sword.

Also, you forgot Pokemon which is arguably their largest franchise of the last 2 decades. I'd be all for more pokemon since they have almost limitless potential to be super canon and also extremely fresh designs. I'm still pulling for a Pokemon Trainer 2 which would operate as PT 1 does but with the starters from the upcoming game.
Me too, I wouldn't mind getting a new Pokémon rep especially from gen 8, but I'm sick and tired of the forced shoving of FE characters when the franchise isn't even as popular or iconic as Nintendo tries to make it seem.
 

TheDuke54

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
275
#34
Fire Emblem is very popular in Japan. So they're obviously going to cater to the Japanese fanbase as much as everyone overseas. I'd just hope they'd pick someone who would be unique like an ax, lance, or bow user. Or have a paladin knight or wyvern rider. Pushing fighters into Smash just to promote a new game that isn't even out yet (as they did for Corrin) is annoying. Mainly because this is the only franchise they've done this for.

But they've only done it once so hopefully it's not a staple they plan on keeping.
 

Mushroomguy12

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
103
#35

I'm not discussing this any further.
Good for you. That video can apply to your opinion too, and we can both agree to disagree.

Yeah, just one cutscene. Taking from spinoffs is fine for Mario since the spinoffs are such an integral part of the Mario franchise. It's not fine for Zelda, which is intentionally spinoff-light.
Skull Kid doesn't appear for the majority of Majora's Mask (similar to Marx from Kirby), and that's the only game where he has any significant role. And Shiek only appeared in a couple cutscenes as well, and she didn't even fight. Didn't stop her addition.

The thing with Zelda, Link, and Ganon is that they have similar abilities and body types throughout their various forms. Impa does not, and while she appears frequently as Zelda's attendant, her role has NEVER exceeded that of the major one-shots.
Ganondorf the humanoid Gerudo theif has quite a different body type from the Blue Pig Ganon form that he exclusively appeared in for pretty every game before Ocarina of Time. In fact Ocarina of Time was pretty much human Ganondorf's only appearance when he was first added in Melee. The existence of blue pig Ganon didn't stop him from being added because it was clear as day that the humanoid form was the one that fit better.

Now let's see how many forms Impa has. She has her young slender Warrior form, in Skyward Sword and Ocarina of Time, and then her old maiden form, for the classic 2D games, ALBW, and BOTW. That's two different forms, far from being too difficult to choose from, with one clearly being fit for Smash FAR more than the other. Just like Ganondorf.

And her role is different from all those one shots in that she has had a decently significant role in MULTIPLE games throughout the series, being directly affiliated with Zelda herself.
 
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Xquirtle

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Messages
128
Location
Columbus, Ohio
#36
Fire Emblem is very popular in Japan. So they're obviously going to cater to the Japanese fanbase as much as everyone overseas. I'd just hope they'd pick someone who would be unique like an ax, lance, or bow user. Or have a paladin knight or wyvern rider. Pushing fighters into Smash just to promote a new game that isn't even out yet (as they did for Corrin) is annoying. Mainly because this is the only franchise they've done this for.

But they've only done it once so hopefully it's not a staple they plan on keeping.
They've probably got solid data showing that the Bayo games sold better after her addition. I'd theorize that basically all titles represented in smash sell better after a smash title comes out for a few obvious reasons. like more people buy the console... but also because they get exposed to franchises that they didn't know. People are probably lining up at nintendo to pay them to include their protagonist as smash DLC.

I do get the Corrin sentiment, but at least she is a pretty sick character. Imagine if the same thing happened and it was Lucina lol. Regardless, I would bet on every single DLC character either being an advertisement for a new title OR some out of left field inclusion of a non-nintendo character (such as Cloud). Their parent company will, of course, be paying Nintendo to include that character.
 

Coolboy

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Aug 27, 2018
Messages
146
Location
Netherlands
#37
what i never understood is..why did they never add Micaiah from FE RD? yeah shes a spirit now but she should had been a playable fighter sooner like in Brawl..she was the main character of the game she was in hell she was even on the cover of it and not Ike (Ike only appeared later in the game anyway) and to make it even better shes NOT a sword user she only uses light magic..but it shouldn't be hard to come up with moves for that.
 

TheDuke54

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Apr 19, 2016
Messages
275
#38
I personally never liked Miciah. She was too hypocritical for my taste...actually yeah bring her to Smash. It'd be fun to have Ike smack her around a bit.
 
Joined
Jan 24, 2015
Messages
3,466
#39
what i never understood is..why did they never add Micaiah from FE RD? yeah shes a spirit now but she should had been a playable fighter sooner like in Brawl..she was the main character of the game she was in hell she was even on the cover of it and not Ike (Ike only appeared later in the game anyway) and to make it even better shes NOT a sword user she only uses light magic..but it shouldn't be hard to come up with moves for that.
Probably it's a combination of problems of timing (RD was released during the period prior to Brawl's originally intented release); and being overshadow for Ike as a option because of a kind of moveset Sakurai wanted (a Burly Swordsman) and probably some bias at IS because we never knew if other options were intented... I wonder if there was some kind of intention of doing something with Micaiah thought, considering the fact RD!Sothe is the only RD Character with a Trophy in Brawl despite he being essencially a secondary protagonist, something that is kind of referenced at his trophy description.

A skilled swordsman, thief, and member of the Dawn Brigade, a band of freedom fighters operating out of the old Daein capital, Nevassa. Although not related to Micaiah, the light-magic-dealing leader of the Dawn Brigade, he was raised like a brother and considers her safety his top priority. He grows from boy to young man between "Path of Radiance" and "Radiant Dawn."
If DLC would have been a thing in Brawl she could have actually being in the game. Her chances are definitely lower after losing this opportunity, but as Chrom once said, everything can change. So I'm still here until the end of my time.
 
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Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
3,124
#40
Well FE is 100% going to get at least one more. There is a new FE game launching on the switch in the near future. Might as well just accept this one and hope that its a waifu with something other than a sword.

Also, you forgot Pokemon which is arguably their largest franchise of the last 2 decades. I'd be all for more pokemon since they have almost limitless potential to be super canon and also extremely fresh designs. I'm still pulling for a Pokemon Trainer 2 which would operate as PT 1 does but with the starters from the upcoming game.
Me too, I wouldn't mind getting a new Pokémon rep especially from gen 8, but I'm sick and tired of the forced shoving of FE characters when the franchise isn't even as popular or iconic as Nintendo tries to make it seem.
Well I for one don't want them to shove in newer characters just because they're new. And that goes for BOTH Pokémon and Fire Emblem. Like it or not, careless adding of newer Pokémon is just as bad a problem as Fire Emblem characters, since there's no guarantee the newest Pokémon will even be iconic. Do you want other Pokémon like Jigglypuff, Pichu, and Incineroar sticking around just because they failed to realize that they will fall off?

We need better reps, not ones added for the sake of relevancy obligation or to fill a quota.
 
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