Toning up heavies

[Master Knight DH]

Since Kid Icarus Uprising was a very big flop about balancing out Mighty Glaciers, I think I ought to make this topic. Here are my ideas:

*Characters getting knockback armor in general and moves having KB adjusted almost accordingly. The idea would be to prevent low percentage flinching from weaker attacks, and make stronger attacks more important for speedsters. Heavies DESPERATELY need that.
*Have stale move negation decrease KB by set values rather than percentages. It would put an end to spammage of things like Meta Knight's Tornado on characters like Dedede who shouldn't have it as the bane of their existence.
*For guys with attack power, actually be able to KO without stronger moves. They can do that in 15 Minute Melee. Why not in regular play?
*Aerial smashes, balanced out too. It would add depth to air combat, allowing for easier balancing between characters in the air, and also give reason to actually stay in the air (SAMUS). Characters who fall fast like Fox, meanwhile, would have to manage timing for only moderate reward. (You can't tell me they wouldn't end up being forced to need them.)
*Power system. Kid Icarus Uprising borks on it by giving the Super Armor power only 1 charge per level while making it stupidly hard to use a higher level than 1, but I believe it could have worked well as a happy medium for superarmor.

I may have other ideas that escape me right now, but I'm pretty sure this should suffice.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Just give them fast moves and mobility options like the rest of the cast. There's a difference between being slow and being stupidly laggy that you can never get a hit in.

 

[gothrax]

Just give them fast moves and mobility options like the rest of the cast. There's a difference between being slow and being stupidly laggy that you can never get a hit in.

What he means is giving the "stupidly laggy" attacks super armor, so that they dont get interrupted by quick/safe atracks.

And i think that it could work? Maybe??
But this wouldn't be for all the heavies. Probably just bowser and ganondorf, i would say?

 

[UltimateLoser]

Agreed with this. Seems like the heavies are always getting the short end

 

[Life]

Not enough Battalion Wars in this thread.

Spoiler

Sorry, had to. I don't hate you, you're just so fun to mess with.

Mighty Glaciers (man, I hate using tropespeak on other sites) are fine in Kid Icarus. You play a Stone Wall (see this graphic to tell the difference). Mighty Glacier is more along the lines of

Ogre Club
0/X
OD+8
Melee Combo+4
possibly KB resistance

with SA and filler.

Closest thing to Mighty Glacier in Smash is Project M Bowser. Stone Walls in fighting games are generally terrible ideas (most Brawl characters qualify because of the airdodge-out-of-hitstun mechanic and general low mobility, which is why the Melee people backlashed so hard about it).

 

[Big-Cat]

I feel like Super Armor is not quite the answer that should be given across all heavies. Some other things that can be done include:

• Improved normals, namely for poking and anti-airing.
• Improved hitboxes.
• Safer attacks on block with less pushback.

Some better mobility options would be nice, but I feel giving every one a lot of mobility options would only reduce the diversity in the cast. As I've said in the other threads though, the whole mechanics of the series need to be deconstructed during development.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Adding flinch resistance to certain moves would be a good start. For example, Bowser's f-smash could be given invincibility frames the instant he thrusts his head.

 

[Master Knight DH]

"I feel like Super Armor is not quite the answer that should be given across all heavies."

KB Armor would be a start. Link is one of the more notable characters who should get some KB resistance simply because his defensive power is meant to support his variety.

Besides, I did say to give them the ability to KO without needing their strongest moves. If they can hit with THOSE at, say, 70%, they generally deserve the KO. But I'd rather they be able to hit for KO with faster moves if the opponent is at a high enough percentage. A "chip KO" option, as it were.

"Mighty Glaciers (man, I hate using tropespeak on other sites) are fine in Kid Icarus."

No they are not. Unless they're using an armor power, which unfortunately gets to be rather inefficient, they're simple raid targets. And if you're using Virus, then you're wasting 8 or more spaces for a power intended to counter behavior that is unintuitive for opponents. And if you want to claim that clubs can ambush, try again when the opponents are actually competent. Competent opponents will dodge your shots, doesn't matter if they 1HK at that point, and they will turn you into their punching bag because of sickening amounts of unconditional flinching that actually makes me miss SSB's level of flinching, which actually says something.

"What he means is giving the "stupidly laggy" attacks super armor, so that they dont get interrupted by quick/safe atracks."

I mean give the minor KB resistance in general, even via having it happening only in practicality (KIU's power system). But that does bring up that that dash attacks could be given some KB resistance. Having them get disrupted when they should be dodged is obnoxious.

"Adding flinch resistance to certain moves would be a good start."
Or in general, period. You still take the damage and it still wouldn't be wise to stay idle.

"For example, Bowser's f-smash could be given invincibility frames the instant he thrusts his head."
And how about his Down B too? Mario totally defeated it in SMB3 by punching through it rather than dodging it.

 

[Big-Cat]

I think this is the second time in 24 hours that I have suggested that we should just get rid of the stale moves mechanic.

Also, what about just reducing startup and recovery on normals as well? It's not like they're super fast or anything to make them overpowered.

 

[aba1]

What he means is giving the "stupidly laggy" attacks super armor, so that they dont get interrupted by quick/safe atracks.

And i think that it could work? Maybe??
But this wouldn't be for all the heavies. Probably just bowser and ganondorf, i would say?

They did this in brawl- to Bowser and I have to admit it made him a much more versatile character. I think this would be a great idea especially for characters like DK and Ganondwarf as well. Some people have mentioned they could just be sped up in various different ways but really that isn't fixing the problem that is just making them more like the rest and taking away part of what makes the heavies who they are. They are high risk high rewards type characters where you get hit a lot more but when you land a hit it counts.

 

[Master Knight DH]

The stale moves mechanic is even there to prevent move spammage. What it needs to do is reduce KB by harder values than percentages, so that low power moves inevitably do nothing and like it (aside from damage), while high power moves do not suffer as much.

And what aba1 said. More importantly, useful power does surprisingly good things, like make range combat less polarizing: shrugging off the shots means you can approach without precious momentum being lost, so they can be given plenty of low time range with much less worry of being broken.

What I suggested for addressing speed issues is to have the moves that can hit at decent frequency be able to KO. It would result in effectively having heavies just needing to deal enough HP of damage to win, while lightweights would still be stuck having to clean hit at a high percentage to nab the KO. There. Heavies are now more able to fight without losing their own style.

 

[Big-Cat]

The stale moves mechanic is even there to prevent move spammage. What it needs to do is reduce KB by harder values than percentages, so that low power moves inevitably do nothing and like it (aside from damage), while high power moves do not suffer as much.

Yet people spam stuff to this day. You're basically being punished for using the right moves at the right time.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Don't know what you'd be doing to even end up being forced to use the same move too frequently, but I doubt it'd even be good play.

And can you think of anything that is spammed that actually has appropriately high KB to begin with?

 

[-LzR-]

Peach's fair

 

[Gea]

Why would you want more potent stale moves KB reduction, that's what led to really stupid stuff (cgs, squirtle utilt chains, etc) in the first place. And super armor just means you make a character that people will fall prey to when they don't know any better, then demolish when they learn all they have to do is camp and grab the fatty.

Ganon was fairly successful in Melee because he had some mobility but more importantly he could kill in 5 hits or less and was decent at simple combo chains. Give fat characters proper reward for the risk of being fat.

 

[Sleek Media]

Brawl- Browser. There's your solution.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Peach's fair

Base KB, maybe. Definitely not KB growth.

Why would you want more potent stale moves KB reduction, that's what led to really stupid stuff (cgs, squirtle utilt chains, etc) in the first place. And super armor just means you make a character that people will fall prey to when they don't know any better, then demolish when they learn all they have to do is camp and grab the fatty.
You're forgetting one thing: the opponent would become able to react appropriately.

Ganon was fairly successful in Melee because he had some mobility but more importantly he could kill in 5 hits or less and was decent at simple combo chains. Give fat characters proper reward for the risk of being fat.
Ugh. Stop with the demeaning talk. Give defensive power characters a sense of strategy is what I want. It worked in Battalion Wars, making tanks incredibly useful while still forcing them to ID threats appropriately so that they couldn't be used mindlessly. What a character like Bowser should do is reward adapting without allowing n00bs to get away with believing they can simply crush everything in their path.

Responses in Bold.

Brawl- Browser. There's your solution.

Right. I'm going to check a mod where everybody is intentionally broken? Better yet, I'm trusting people who didn't give 2 ****s to have the maturity stages on Olimar's Pikmin actually matter?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Bowser and DK and Ike and Ganon are far from defensive characters.

Defensive characters are like, Falcon, Ivysaur, Mewtwo, or Zelda, that rely on the opponent approaching them and shutting down said approach.


If you want a heavy defensive character, there's Samus or R.O.B.

I really have no idea what you mean using defensive and Bowser in the same sentence I guess is all. Unless all you do is shield and fortress, Bowser has a lot more attributes of offensive gameplay than anything else.

Base KB, maybe. Definitely not KB growth.

Falcon fair, Ganon dair, R.O.B. nair.

Oh right smashboards doesn't combine double posts. Sorry about that, truly.

 

[Sleek Media]

Right. I'm going to check a mod where everybody is intentionally broken?

Check it, and get back to us.

 

[-LzR-]

Well Bowser in Brawl- is a very good example of horrible character design.

 

[aba1]

Well Bowser in Brawl- is a very good example of horrible character design.

Care to expand. People are free to express their opinions but their opinions don't have much weight when they lack reasoning or facts following them up.

 

[DekuTree]

Bowser and DK and Ike and Ganon are far from defensive characters.

Defensive characters are like, Falcon, Ivysaur, Mewtwo, or Zelda, that rely on the opponent approaching them and shutting down said approach.


If you want a heavy defensive character, there's Samus or R.O.B.

I really have no idea what you mean using defensive and Bowser in the same sentence I guess is all. Unless all you do is shield and fortress, Bowser has a lot more attributes of offensive gameplay than anything else.

I have to agree with this. Ike and such are simply very weighty characters witch hit hard. Defensive characters excel at kiting and approach destruction.

As for other peoples posts about buffing those heavy hitters, I do not believe that giving super armour on powerful attacks is the way to go. Fast characters could easily anticipate attacks, dodge around said attacks and go to town.

 

[Master Knight DH]

I said defensive POWER characters, not defensive PLAY characters.

Also, the knee is hard to hit with. Ganondorf's down air is horrible to spam with. And ROB's neutral air is slow.

And as for the other guy, I'd rather power as a whole actually matter better, rather than focus on improving one specific character and nerfing another, ending up making them samey which ultimately gives a dumb advantage to the latter. Making it better would mitigate speed differences and thus even out matchups better.

 

[Gea]

The knee is hard to hit with? As in, Falcon?

Edit: I realized you mean in Brawl.

 

[-LzR-]

Care to expand. People are free to express their opinions but their opinions don't have much weight when they lack reasoning or facts following them up.

Sure I can explain. Bowser basically ignores most of the moves and tactics in the game with ZERO SKILL. He can just stand there and nothing happens and he can just counter attack. Now this also takes the validity of many characters moves out of the window, it also forces you to play in an extremely boring way to win against Bowser. I haven't played minus for like a year though so I am not sure if he has changed for the better or worse.

 

[aba1]

Sure I can explain. Bowser basically ignores most of the moves and tactics in the game with ZERO SKILL. He can just stand there and nothing happens and he can just counter attack. Now this also takes the validity of many characters moves out of the window, it also forces you to play in an extremely boring way to win against Bowser. I haven't played minus for like a year though so I am not sure if he has changed for the better or worse.

Ahhh so you don't enjoy the game play because you don't find him reactive enough that's fair. Personally I enjoy the challenge and change of pace. He forces opponents to play much more cautiously since they can't depend on their speed to interrupt his attacks bogging him down like normal. Instead they must maximize their speed and get in and out of the way before he gets them.

Personally I enjoy the change of pace and I like that it puts such strong emphasis on attempting to predict the opponents since you can't just act you have to both act and react before the opponent can even finish acting.

 

[Big-Cat]

Sure I can explain. Bowser basically ignores most of the moves and tactics in the game with ZERO SKILL. He can just stand there and nothing happens and he can just counter attack. Now this also takes the validity of many characters moves out of the window, it also forces you to play in an extremely boring way to win against Bowser. I haven't played minus for like a year though so I am not sure if he has changed for the better or worse.

He apparently was updated since the last time you played.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1M0AHIGTtaU

Minus the super armor on a good number of his attacks, I really like what was done here like the Focus Attack, the aimable fire breath, and larger size for more range and zoning.

Still, I would like some of the big guys to be more "athletic" in their fighting style like Donkey Kong and Ganondorf.

 

[-LzR-]

Isn't it possible to aim fire breath in Brawl anyways? Or do you mean you can aim it like backwards?

 

[Big-Cat]

Looks like way more freedom of movement than what I can recall. Mind you I have only touched Brawl on a handful of occasions in the last three years.

 

[-LzR-]

If you are able to breath the fire literally upwards then it has definitely been changed. As in vanilla you can only slightly change the angle from upwards to downwards.

 

[Master Knight DH]

How did this become about Brawl- Bowser? Toning up usable defensive power usability and whatnot would do things like tone DOWN characters like Marth and Meta Knight.

 

[Kink-Link5]

Why do you keep mentioning Bowser and defensive?

 

[Master Knight DH]

Wh-

I did not keep mentioning Bowser. If anybody, it would have been Link. Bowser was repeatedly brought up by others as an obvious mention.

And defensive power is a great equalizer against speed advantage. It keeps the opponent from just killing you simply because they have an easy time hitting you first. In turn, guys and gals with attack power would benefit from being able to punch through those defenses, generally also having the touch of death on speedsters.

So let's see who benefits from useful non-redundant defensive power:
*Defense power guys, obviously
*High attack power guys, because they can punch through defenses with less problem and end up pressuring low power guys better
*Range attack users, who can snipe the defense power guys and are more able to fight back against a Glass Cannon + Fragile Speedster + Melee Tornado hybrid *coughmetaknighthack*
*Mage characters of any sort, who no longer have to worry about dominant speed, while having the improved tactics standards to support them too.

Whaddyaknow. 4 character types as a whole benefit from more useful defensive power.

 

[Kink-Link5]

So you aren't talking about heavy characters or power characters then. You're talking about Link and only Link because he's the only character that could be accurately described as being all three of Heavy, Defensive, and Powerful.

 

[-LzR-]

Except he isn't powerful.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Oh my God.

You're not funny. Stop. I was using Link as a blatant example.

And anyway, let's look at that tier list for Brawl again.

4 Mighty Glacier characters are in C Tier or above. That's including Wario (lol) and Lucario (who may or may not count). Another one is in D Tier: Wolf. I missed nobody so far, since anybody else in D or above would be less strong than standard.

E or below has 10-11 characters who are heavier than Mario, along with the Glass Cannons you might be thinking of. Tiers G/H have as many as FIVE of the former.

Yeah, see a pattern?

 

[Kink-Link5]

You don't need to be funny to be correct. The two are completely disassociated.

 

[Gea]

That frame data matters a lot in a game like this? Go figure

 

[Master Knight DH]

More like Brawl has failed to address heavies' problems better.

Let's look at the tier list for Melee:
*4 heavies in C Tier or above, including Captain Falcon (naturally), Ganondorf (naturally), and Dr. Mario.
*1 heavy in D Tier too, this time at the bottom. Surprisingly, though, regular Mario is there too.
*All of the higher power Glass Cannons are, again, below D Tier.
*Of course, there's only 4 heavier-than-standard characters, Melee didn't have too many heavies to begin with.

 

[Kink-Link5]

If Doc is a heavy weight so are Mario and Luigi.