~Tome of The Dragmire~ v1.5

[Pururun]

holy **** it's true it really does work well i guess it's an awesome tactic for smaller foes great find pururun

Great. Someone else tried it, so I'm not the only one seeing it.

I posted a "graph" of who it can and can't hit on page 1 of the "How do I beat ___?", the Ganondorf Match-Up Thread. I'm just hoping someone fixes it up and tests it some more. >_>

 

[Josiah]

I had TheCape over the other day, and even though he kicked my butt plenty, it was great practice and I was able to get him to (no pun intended) fall for the anti-edgeguard Ganoncide I was talking about a few posts earlier, so this is definitely worth trying sometimes.

As for that flamechoke-dtilt combo, might the same be true for flamechoke-ftilt against larger characters, or does that have just too much lag? I missed on that against TheCape just about every time, but maybe I just wasn't doing it right.

 

[Dragmire]

now f tilt is way too long but it could work if the foe starts to panic but jumping is an easy get out for them

another nice follow up for flame choke Dtilt is to follow up with a sparta or a down B


unfortunately the original concept doesn't work as well as I thought you have to be lucky that the opponent messes up for Dtilt but it is faster don't get me wrong

 

[Tenki]

Well, since asking about Flame Choke-> Dtilt ended so well last time... (seriously, I learned about standing dtilt ;D)


Anyone have ideas for Utilt? It's a pretty good anti-human move (comps punish it almost instantly XD)... I listed some stuff from earlier in another post:

Up-tilt (Volcano Kick) has some mindgame potential. It's an attack with a 2 second (?) charge/delay but (a lesser known) vacuum effect.

I used it pretty often and racked quite a few kills (or at least, hits) against people today. If you start it when they're at a distance/dropping, they sometimes lose the sense of timing (that is, how long you've been holding your leg above your head) and resolve to stand in front of you shielding- and take the hit on their shield.

If someone's recovering and you use the up-tilt 2-3 Ganon-lengths from the edge, there's a good chance that they'll feel safe and then get sucked into the kick.

Along the same lines, if someone's near the edge of the 'projected' kick, they sometimes walk away just a bit, but get sucked back a bit juuust enough to get hit by the explosion.

Also, if an Ike tries to use Quick Draw (side B) on your Volcano Kick, he will hit you and go flying off the level. Go go vacuum.

I can't be too certain of this right now, but the delay after the actual kick doesn't seem to be too much (?) and if that's true, you can use it to bait people to 'punish' you, but reverse it on them instead.

any corrections/comments would be appreciated xD

 

[heypancho]

I searched the forum but I haven't seen anything on boost smashing.. or aka dash attack canceled usmash for Gannon. Can he do this? His dash attack is pretty long so I'd imagine it to be useful.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about http://youtube.com/watch?v=l7Q2gfVEf0k

 

[:034:]

I searched the forum but I haven't seen anything on boost smashing.. or aka dash attack canceled usmash for Gannon. Can he do this? His dash attack is pretty long so I'd imagine it to be useful.

He can't. He will simply use his upsmash in place.

 

[studly]

awesome shin...thax

 

[Tenki]

http://smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=4327525&postcount=124

lul it's right there

anyway, can anyone confirm if Volcano Kick/U-tilt has low post-attack lag?

 

[Dragmire]

we all know hugging is like a life ender for enemies when they're approaching the edge but how could it be made easier for ganondorf well it's this simple

since ganon is slower than a sack of hammers why not use a dashing like attack. I am in this case speaking of B forward once you start the falling to certain doom frame time just keep holding the direction where the edge is and immediately grab it then they will fall to their doom due to invincibility frames from edge grabbing.

lol ganon hugging

Teniki: never ever use Utilt unless you are edgeguarding but there shouldn't be any lag in between those attacks

 

[Tenki]

So U-tilt has low lag after the heel explodes? lol potential mindgame/attack-bait if you use it in long enough of a distance.

like:
[opponent is watching you, out of range, as u-tilt charges]
[opponent runs in as it hits the floor, going for free damage]
[pop lulz you hit him with a jab because you didn't have any lag xD]

or something like that.

I've had bad luck with doing side-B on edges- I think the speed might be too much toward the beginning of the attack to safely grab the edge - I've had quite a few suicides because of that.

might as well learn down-B's distance for the same reason, too, since it's his fastest horizontal move.

 

[Kyle_Wattula]

Canceled Utilt today. Weird stuff, it had something to do with the platform and the opponents sprite,,, maybe the guard button... this might not be new, but it was very new to me.

 

[Tenki]

try to repeat it, and tell us if you find something! :D
------------------
[edit]

*tip* Warlock punch can have its direction changed at the beginning of the animation. If you press the B button and quickly after press the opposite direction you will turn the other direction. It DOES work in the air. (i'm not sure the difference in power, i'll have to check that. I think it interrupts the sound-file of the move, or, it takes a little longer for the move to activate as if its staggered.. duno.)

Knockback+power is increased if you do a turn-around Warlock Punch.

If you want to do a 'full power' aerial Warlock punch facing forward, you can do a 360 Warlock Punch (same way as the 360 Falcon Punch):

-While in midair, facing forward, tap the opposite direction and let go of the stick.
-Press B to start the punch, then hold the forward direction as it's charging up.

So if you're facing right, then it would be:
[Jump right]|[tap left]|--[hold right]


----------------
also, i'm feeling like the TC doesn't post in the ganondorf forum much at all so it probably won't be updated.

 

[KoopaKoot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXkLvOlYxbg

Who you can and can't hite with a thunderpunch after flame choke.

You CAN hit Snake but sometimes it doesn't work.

When playing my brother, he usually rolls away so I do another side b.

 

[Dragmire]

it's nice to see in video format that and some of them i thought were unhitable and good music

 

[Tenki]

osht that's really cool ;d

I like the very end of the video where it says clearly: everyone can be hit by the (standing) d-tilt after flame choke.

I was wondering about that, because it's become my favorite follow-up after flame choke (d-tilt>aerial), and I rarely use or see a fitting follow-up after jab.

hah, just an idea, but, I wonder if someone can figure out "the ultimate Ganon starter-combo"

at 0% on some (not sure which) characters, you can do a d-throw --> flame choke --> _________

;D he's a freaking sumo wrestler lol

 

[:034:]

at 0% on some (not sure which) characters, you can do a d-throw --> flame choke --> _________

You can do this to Fox, so I assume you can do it most fast-falling characters (spacies) and perhaps some of the bigger characters?

 

[Tenki]

I think, for the majority of the time, it only works if they DI toward you ;_;

 

[epic of DE]

Well of the time that i've used ganon in brawl I've learned two somewhat useful or at the very least interesting things:
It almost seems to happen all the time when you flame chcke a character that you can't jab or F-tilt into that they always do their rising attack as soon as they can. If you jump right after you get them with the flame choke you normally avoid their attack and are free to stomp them.
The second thing I've either discovered or noticed is that if you space your Down-B properly when going towards a ledge you will cancel the "flip" both ganon and CF do and can perform any action such as grabbing the ledge, jumping to an attack, or whatever you find to be creative.
(or to a Warlock for the lose as it first happened to me -_-...)

 

[Tenki]

By down-B, you mean from center of the level --> edge, and not coming from off-stage, right? ._.;

Also, here's my current FC starter from 0-10%:

(D-throw [MUST be 0% and DI toward you ._.])>Flame Choke>Standing D-tilt>Jab

Any higher and your opponent can escape.

It's around 30% worth of 'free' damage, not counting the throw, since the positioning after the throw is luck based on how your opponent DI's.

[edit]
anyone wanna check if the jab can be followed up with:
-Flame choke #2
-Ganonkick (down B)

or if the combo just ends there.

 

[Dragmire]

ccccombo breaker


alright I find this to work as well

flame choke shield dash grab d throw uair try it at low %'s

 

[epic of DE]

Sorry if I wasn't very clear on what I meant Tenki, when I say to use ganon's Down-B I meant as you are on the stage and going to the edge. The positioning can be a tad tricky but when you do it right once you finish the Down-B you can do whatever you want as you don't go through that flip he performs when you do the move from the ground to off the stage.

I still think it has potential has I once did the move on my friend and then immediately did an U-air to knock him away and allow myself to grab the ledge.

 

[WastingPenguins]

(Nevermind, ignore this post)

 

[Tenki]

Yeah, that sounds pretty cool, considering down-B covers the most ground the quickest for him. Someone mentioned something similar to that, except with forward-B (though it's killed me more times than it's helped). Nice to know that it works with down-B too :D

 

[Dragmire]

I mentioned the B forward hugging trick and you need to DI towards the edge it shouldn't ever fail if you do it right but I suppose this is nice though I knew it

 

[paralasalud]

i don't know if anyone stressed this anywhere, but a cute trick with ganon i like to use is wizard foot right off the edge (just so he falls off at the very end of the wizard foot) and follow with a uair. it works.

 

[WastingPenguins]

Well of the time that i've used ganon in brawl I've learned two somewhat useful or at the very least interesting things:
It almost seems to happen all the time when you flame chcke a character that you can't jab or F-tilt into that they always do their rising attack as soon as they can. If you jump right after you get them with the flame choke you normally avoid their attack and are free to stomp them.

If this works more than once in a match then your opponent is just dumb. Wake up attack is easily the WORST thing you could do after getting flame choked... there are just so many ways that you could get punished. I have a buddy who plays Ganon and I will NEVER wake up attack after a flame choke, ever ever ever.

Although I will say from my own Ganon experience that this seems way more useful if you land an aerial 'choke. For some reason that really catches people off guard and they seem a lot more likely to start mashing A for their rising attack, leaving you to punish in whatever way you like. But still, yeah, you're basically relying on your opponent to screw up.

 

[epic of DE]

You'd think that would be the case with the flame choke but in reality not many people actually expect it to occur. Its similar to in melee when a fox hits a character with a shine that falls down from it the person accidentally does their rising attack by accident. Also for the record, Ganon is the Astaroth of brawl as he is excellent at punishing mistakes and I personally do not use the flame choke excessively as it is punishable and if I predict that my opponent will roll instead of a rising attack I follow after them with ganon's dash attack that can follow with a U-air.

 

[Twilight Emblem]

I've seen this used on people, stomp/stomp/upsmash

Stomp once, and jump up right after canceling it to follow them into the air while they're stunned, hit them back down onto the ground with the second one, land and cancel into an upsmash. *maybe would have to do a third stomp to come back down and cancel into an upsmash*

Would this work?

Even if it doesn't, could you possibly follow the second stomp up with something else?

 

[Dragmire]

no unfortunately because they would fly too high but you could always u air

 

[EvilGenki]

I had thought that the dtilt after flame choke didn't work but after trying out Pururun's method, it does indeed work. Check out his list in the matchup thread for a comprehensive guide to who it can and can't work on.

Now let's try to find some good follow ups for flamechoke->dtilt. At high percentages, it pops the opponent up really high so at best you can try to land an aerial as they come back down if it doesn't kill them off the top. At low percentages it pops them directly above and in front of you so follow-ups may be possible. It seems like they can recover relatively quickly after this so you have to predict how they are going to react.

I've had luck with Uair, Ftilt, and another flamechoke as follow ups. At very low percentages a SH Uair seems to land pretty often, I don't think there's enough time for any other aerial. Ftilt works at very low percentages, otherwise they will recover and hit you with an aerial. A lot of times opponents will guard as they land so you can land another flamechoke->dtilt and repeat the process again. Varying follow ups to keep the opponent guessing is probably your best bet.

 

[PaperstSoapCo]

Nice guide Shin. I like how you stuck with Ganon since Melee even though they gave him a horrible make over. I been thinking about getting into Brawl and when I do I'd love to hit you up online sometime or at a tourney.

This is Tipman by the way if you didn't get my message on your old account.

 

[darkNES386]

I've just started using Ganondorf and I have to say he is a lot of fun to play with. I wanted to mention something in general that I think is helpful with all characters. If you c-stick down JUST AFTER tapping forward to "dash" you can do your dash attack a little sooner then if you try with A. To prove it, simply try the same timing with A and you will find yourself doing a fSmash instead of a dash attack. Maybe this is common knowledge, but I use that with Sonic and I'm using it now with Ganondorf too. Comments?

Edit: I glanced over the guide, it seems really well organized and I'll have to give it a better read later.

 

[Dragmire]

old news dead thread

 

[Sans Glutin]

Excellent guide it's really helping me get used to Ganon.

 

[MiraiGen]

I'm tempted to make another guide that's got less "lololololol" stuck in at random intervals. There's also data missing on the fact that Fair has a sweetspot where his fist is.

Is this guy even active anymore?

 

[Dragmire]

sliq has a better guide find it and love it shin plays lucario now

 

[Metal_Dave]

I'm tempted to make another guide that's got less "lololololol" stuck in at random intervals. There's also data missing on the fact that Fair has a sweetspot where his fist is.

Is this guy even active anymore?

Nope. Shin plays Lucario now, and Sliq's guide is pretty sick. That should replace this one sometime.

 

[MiraiGen]

I'd think the "Report Post" option isn't good for this sort of thing.

Should we PM a mod?

 

[Dragmire]

not worth is it's still a guide just now theres a better one

 

[Grunge]

Man i love Bair
and your guide helped me alot thanks