To-do list

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Hey everyone, I wanted to get a to-do list together so perhaps we can advance Lucario's meta. Feel free to suggest things to add to this list.

• Follow-ups/strings/bnbs

I think we have a lot of things we are still figuring out. The whole rage mechanic stacked with Aura can make certain strings difficult or impossible.

I would love to test Aura Sphere shenanigans both out of charge and perhaps shooting Aura Sphere after an FAir.

• Pivots (Smashes/grabs/FTilt)

We are rather slow in this game, so pivots can really help our spacing game.

• BReversal mind games
• How to Air Walk
• Footstool possibilities
• Force Palm possibilities
• Double Team on reaction
• Frame data?

 

[Rickster]

Here's a few strings that work in my experience. Most of these only work at low aura, unfortunately.

Bthrow>Dash Attack (possibly not guaranteed) You can add more DAs if they suck at DIing/vectoring or miss a tech. Or you can read their jump out of hitstun into..
Fair>Fair/Nair/Uair/AS I believe the Fair>fair is a true combo, since it made the combo counter go up in training. Others may also be true combos, except the AS. Pretty sure they can air dodge it.

On the ground:
Dtilt>Ftilt works at very low %s
Dtilt>Grab also works at low %s
Ftilt>Grab might work
Jab Combo>Fair (very finicky, I usually just try to read their AD or Jump)

Throws:
Dthrow > fair is a true combo on fast-falley characters. Doesn't work much on floaties.
Fthrow>AS can work if they miss the tech or don't jump out of hitstun.
Uthrow>Utilt works on fast fallers. Might be able to follow the Utilt with a grab or aerial.

That's all I can really think of for now. First time doing something like this, so I apologize for anything that is incorrect and/or confusing.

 

[Masonomace]

• Footstool possibilities

-Footstool > D-air is guaranteed, but it's weird. This follow-up isn't as good as it was in Brawl, but it's something.

-Footstool > DT is another possibility, but it's not useful enough to be mentioned that much, unless we act out of DT quicker & keep edge-guarding someone from low using our slow falling speed using F-air or B-air to stage-spike.
(Footstool > Glancing Counter works though)

• Double Team on reaction

-Edge-guard break projectiles seeking us off-stage by using RDT, usually guarantees us getting back to the stage completely safe because of the intangibility & the ridiculous sliding distance kick attack. This got improved to the max, so there's no reason we can't recover let alone find a reason to use our DJ & ES if we wanna be lazy. If you're launched facing backwards & a projectile is hunting you, regular DT works too, assuming you didn't change direction with Special Reversing AS.

-Punishing edge-attacks accordingly.

-Evading stage controlling traps or projectiles without needing to wear down our bubble shield, acting as a defensive tactic with the sliding kick attack.

That's all I can input for now.

 

[SuperSmashKing009]

A good string for fast fallers is uptilt>uptilt>uptilt>FP

 

[Zoa]

Just my thoughts on the matter, but let's wait until the Wii U version for some of this. The 3DS definitely isn't the best method of figuring out our movement options, let alone some of our potential BnB/pivots/etc. The lack of a C stick, general difficulty in performing other movement options, and dependency on a wireless signal with the 3DS' hardware limitations to test/whatever else with other people won't fetch the near accurate results needed. I will definitely be doing all I can to help advance the meta once the Wii U version launches though.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

The thing is... If you try to pick up and contribute from the Wii U ver you will be behind everyone else who has been practicing on the 3DS.

Let's do what we can for now at least.

Another thing about footstools is offstage footstools can pretty much guarantee a kill on anyone with a bad recovery. If we had any reliable way to strong to one. We could get some really early gimps before Aura kicks in.

 

[Zoa]

Of course. I definitely agree. That's why I said some things might want to wait for now. Anyways, low percent dash to grab is guaranteed. Dtilt is actually very solid for grab and attack set ups as well. I'll test it out before my work shift today.

 

[Zoa]

DA -> grab I had work up until 17% at 0% with Luc. At 50% it works up until 14%-ish. The aim is to land the hitbox close to Luc's torso.

 

[Jaxas]

I'm not sure if it has been my opponents messing up, but I've had some good results with Dthrow->Fair->Jump->Fair (->Nair, certain characters and percents only). It seems to work better on medium-weight floaties like Bowser Jr, Fox falls to fast for it to work I believe

Nair isn't a particularly strong finisher though, so I should probably be using FCAS there instead. As well as maybe Uair

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Has anyone tried any Aura Sphere charge silliness yet? By the by Bowser can only ledge roll or he is forced to get hit by a charging Aura Sphere if we charge it near the ledge at med - high %.

 

[Jaxas]

I wasn't a Lucario main in Brawl (I played him some, but not much) so I'm not sure if this is what you mean by ASC silliness, but I know it's amazing at higher percents as a ledge guard (just be ready to shield against some characters; Link's sword hits you for example, and at least in Brawl Pikachu's ledge get-up hitbox came out before invincibility wore off).

I also get quite a few people with ASC->Grab/FP Grab (less reliable)/Usmash OoS/etc.

 

[Loota]

Indeed, Aura Sphere charge is amazing in this game. It seems to eat people's shields up more reliably for a poke than in Brawl and cause more shieldstun too. B-reversing it into an opponent is also much more difficult to predict as the game speed has been upped from Brawl and you won't be able to escape it that easily anymore either. It has also got that extremely valuable role as a covering tool for people trying to come back from the ledge often resulting in a more or less guaranteed kill.

Too bad our nair's hitbox got severely nerfed and fair doesn't linger anymore so followups aren't so easy anymore (at least on the 3DS). The things I have usually done out of it is shield -> jc upsmash if they aren't positioned really far to the back or OoS dair (after one or two hits) -> FP/Grab if only the first hit connects. I feel these are really reliable options even if the latter one might sound goofy. Sometimes when I'm sure someone will try to jump out of it I'll just proceed to bair or uair though these obviously are purely reads. All in all, I love this move and will continue to implement it into my game as much as possible.

One thing I would like to be tested if grounded dair is actually safe on shield on higher percents as subsequent dairs have barely any time to do anything between them. I've had a situation many times where I did 3 dairs straight on the opponents shield without them managing to do anything out of it, it felt like it could be true pressure.

Also, I'm somewhat interested in our new upB if we have any somewhat reliable followups or setups to it. It's suprisingly deadly at higher percents and fast too even if the startup is a clear warning to the opponent.

...after all this talk about our moves, has someone else noticed that it's almost like that all our best moves from Brawl were nefed (all of our aerials, FP grab, jab) and the worst ones buffed (AS charge, DT, upB, FP flame, DA)? Sometimes it feels like I'm playing this game backwards when the central part of my playstyle revolves around aforementioned buffed moves lol.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I wouldn't say all of our air attacks got nerfed.

NAir is really weird. I think right when it comes out it has a hitbox similar to Brawl's hitbox. Plus it has two hits just in case you wanted to catch an air dodger. Landing lag with it is still pretty minimal (2 frames?), so it might be better to even start NAir instead of landing normally.

Also, BAir kills so early at high percents.

It also feels weird that FAir can be used as a kill move at uber high %.

So how many of you have been experimenting with pivots?

 

[Masonomace]

Some things to add on the To-Do list perhaps? If you guys feel they're worthy enough testing. .

Depending how long our AD lasts, anyone recall buffering a SH > AD > N-air landing in brawl? Since characters can utilize Airdodge Canceling in Sm4sh, N-air is perfect for that, & a SH > AD > N-air miraculously working would be great

Another point to think of, footjumping off character's bubble shields & D-air them. Stomp the yard, except on their shield. Or after first D-air, fall > FP grab.

 

[Jaxas]

I wouldn't say all of our air attacks got nerfed.

NAir is really weird. I think right when it comes out it has a hitbox similar to Brawl's hitbox. Plus it has two hits just in case you wanted to catch an air dodger. Landing lag with it is still pretty minimal (2 frames?), so it might be better to even start NAir instead of landing normally.

Also, BAir kills so early at high percents.

It also feels weird that FAir can be used as a kill move at uber high %.

So how many of you have been experimenting with pivots?

I've been trying to experiment a bit, but the more I play Sm4sh the more I hate the Circle Pad for precise/quick movements...

Also, does anyone have frame data on standard landing lag? I know I've seen the frame counts for using an AD into the ground, but I haven't seen just the basic landing frame count.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So according to Croi Double Team activates on frame 4!

This is huge because this means we can do it on reaction to basically every Smash ever.

Assume it takes 10 frames to react at the human peak and assume1 frame input as well... Ideally we could Double Team moves with 15 or more frames of startup. What do you think?

 

[Masonomace]

So according to Croi Double Team activates on frame 4!

This is huge because this means we can do it on reaction to basically every Smash ever.

Assume it takes 10 frames to react at the human peak and assume1 frame input as well... Ideally we could Double Team moves with 15 or more frames of startup. What do you think?

Definitely!

We could punish a lot of things, even some notable Side-B's such as ZSS Shulk & many others with the right reaction timing.

Btw, I didn't know where else to post this, but there's landing lag data already for all of the characters's aerials & Air dodge. I'll leave it here?
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uwEvYc82aUOUJ22_NE_oK3LlmUglglrwN0_A_aiTKlM/edit#gid=0

| N-air | F-air | B-air | U-air | D-air | Air dodge
Lucario | 9 | 18 | 15 | 22 | 9 | 22

Where I found this from:
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-character-landing-lag-frame-data.371503/

 

[Jaxas]

Things I'd recommend doing (I'll help with them too, of course!):

• Making a list of Lucario's ATs (everything from the wavebounced AS and the Dair platform cancel to the really simple stuff like FPGrab)
  
  • Gif or picture of how to do it
  • How to perform
  • When to use
  • Other notes
• Make and sticky a Lucario Technical Data thread, with things like his weight, jump height, running speed, the Frame data that @ Croi has posted, things like that. Hopefully we'll have hitboxes here eventually too!
• Make a "Problematic Moves" (or something similar) thread. A place where players can list moves or strategies opponents are using against them and they can't find a solid way around to get help dealing with it, or at least some ideas.
• Try and get more people to provide info and update the guide
• Sticky the Q&A thread?

I'm going to try and gather all of Lucario's technical data and make that thread, probably tonight.
@ MythTrainerInfinity and @ Croi , mind if I copy-paste your findings into it?

 

[Croi]

YES.

(no, go for it)

 

[Jaxas]

Here's the start of the Lucario Technical Data thread; for now I have to sleep, though.
By the way, @ Croi could I get you to get frame data for his custom specials as well? I don't need the damage data (I got that here), but I don't have frame data and that would be nice to finish up.

http://smashboards.com/threads/lucarios-technical-data-frame-data-attributes-and-more-wip.375880/

 

[Croi]

I'm... not too privy to doing custom specials, because then I'd have to do them for every character I do, and it's already a massive timesink to do just one character as it is. Not including the time it would take to unlock every move.

 

[Jaxas]

I'm... not too privy to doing custom specials, because then I'd have to do them for every character I do, and it's already a massive timesink to do just one character as it is. Not including the time it would take to unlock every move.

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense; I'll try to find some way to do it myself later then. Thanks!

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Going back to this list, I think we nailed most of it. Good work, guys.

Footstool possibilities...

So if you grab pummel release over the ledge you will at best have a neutral frame advantage. However... Due to increased gravity we have the opportunity to gimp. Some characters like Diddy will pretty much die if you hit them with the first hit of DAir and either footstool or double jump DAir.

If Diddy hits us with UAir while we are attempting this we may be able to hit him with a fast falled DAir out of hitstun, which if out of any type of stun will not stall. We have so many silly things out of grab in this game...

Anyways, anyone have any other footstool ideas that we have not mentioned already?

Our pivots are so good in this game. It will probably be so much easier to pivot FSmash with the C-Stick...

I have noticed that Ganondorf has a harder time approaching if we pivot Force Palm starting at mid%s. Mario is another matchup I have noticed that pivots work well on.

Anyone else notice anything cool with pivots?

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Pivot fsmashing their whiffed dash attack is pretty sexy but I haven't really been able to test anything lately. I'm really hoping pivot fsmash can be inputted with a quick flick of the c-stick though.

 

[Jaxas]

Going back to this list, I think we nailed most of it. Good work, guys.

I agree we hit most of it, but I think we should still:
Making a list of Lucario's ATs (everything from the wavebounced AS and the Dair platform cancel to the really simple stuff like FPGrab)

• Gif or picture of how to do it
• How to perform
• When to use
• Other notes

As for Pivots, yeah retreating pivot FP is amazing in some matchups; I've also had some luck with SH->wait a second/FF->Retreating FP when mixed up with replacing the FP with B-reverse ASC.

Definitely going to have to mess around with footstools more, I hardly ever use them at the moment...

Pivot fsmashing their whiffed dash attack is pretty sexy but I haven't really been able to test anything lately. I'm really hoping pivot fsmash can be inputted with a quick flick of the c-stick though.

@ Croi
"Oh great and mighty owner of the early copy of Sm4sh U..."
Mind confirming if this works or not?

I'll honestly be pretty disappointed if you can't, though

 

[hichez50]

Wavebounces are possible in this game. I personally have to double tap in order to use it though, so it's not easy for me to do it on the 3DS. But I can see it being useful.