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Tips, Tricks, and General Advice for Using ZSS (Updated 03-24-2009)

FadedImage

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Jump Canceled Item Throws:

JC throws can be extremely useful to Zero Suit Samus and her suitpiece game. It allows ZSS to perform a standing item throw during her dash animation (and subsequently canceling the dash).

To perform a Jump Canceled Item Throw: during your dash animation press a jump button and a throw button at nearly the same time (most commonly X/Y + Z) while holding the direction you wish to throw the piece (alternatively, you may use the C-stick instead of throw + direction). Normally, ZSS would just throw the piece forward in a manner that leaves her in lag for a significant amount of time. However, by jumping and throwing at the same time, ZSS will perform her item throw as if she were standing neutral (much like Jump Canceled Grabs in Melee). In this way, you can open up many options while dashing with a suitpiece. Instead of just throwing forward in a laggy manner, you can now throw in any direction (up, down, left or right) and have just as much lag as when throwing standing (basically none).

/endparagraph

on a more personal note, retreating JC throws are awesome, it's a great mix up between retreating glide tosses.

extra edit: You should mention the fact that down-b doesn't land on fall-through platforms unless the kick is out. This is important for returning to stages like Delphino, Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, etc. It also creates that weird quirk with the Pokemon Stadium 1 windmill. Because the windmill counts as a fall-through platform, but for some reason can't be jumped through, normal jumps will not pass-through, down-b will. WTF Sakurai \:

double extra edit: another cool thing about down-b... if you grab the ledge (without tether for extra invinc frames) and interrupt your invinc with jump (not drop, just jump) you can down-b while still invincible, giving you even more invinc frames.

to demonstrate how much invinc frames you get, I put 2 snakes on battlefield, one just above the ledge and one on the edge of the first platform. I had them rapid fire jab for standing hitboxes, and I was able to use invinc frames all the way to the other side of them. Pretty insane way to get back from the ledge.
 

Adapt

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ok I added your JC throw and fixed up a couple sections.

Does someone better than me want to give advice on how to deal with projectile spammers?
 

Rawr_

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ok I added your JC throw and fixed up a couple sections.

Does someone want to give advice on how to deal with projectile spammers?
unplug their controller d ^_^ b
but really, ive found short hop air dodge to be pretty useful, hold shield as you fall to shield as you hit the ground
 

Adapt

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Added a section on the best followups to a down smash... I need to work on my formatting before I write any other sections I think.
 

kuenzel

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Added a section on the best followups to a down smash... I need to work on my formatting before I write any other sections I think.
downsmash>downsmash> Fair
it says it can be DI'd out of.
Does that mean they can DI out of Fair? or DI away from the incoming Fair?
 

FadedImage

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good idea on the out-of-stun section!

I like the idea of dash attack -> u-tilt at the right percentages, I'll have to start doing that.

I think the hardest part is deciding what to do at low percentages. There are so many options that all result in about 30%, it's hard to discern which the best one is. Personally, I think I would go with the d-tilt, and try to follow with a u-air, since around low percentages it seems pretty reliable.

Anyways, another thing I noticed that sucks really bad: when an opponent is in the stun animation, it counts as if they are in the air (in regards to our flipkick). My scheme was, if I stun a person close to the edge, instead of trying to spike them and have them DI back to the stage, I would run off the stage, flipjump back on the stage, and then kick them off the side using our suuuper powerful ground hit. However, it will always spike them in place... very anti-climactic. ):
 

ph00tbag

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Anyways, another thing I noticed that sucks really bad: when an opponent is in the stun animation, it counts as if they are in the air (in regards to our flipkick). My scheme was, if I stun a person close to the edge, instead of trying to spike them and have them DI back to the stage, I would run off the stage, flipjump back on the stage, and then kick them off the side using our suuuper powerful ground hit. However, it will always spike them in place... very anti-climactic. ):
And punishable. If you spike someone that close to the ground, it takes longer to get up from the kick's landing lag than for them to use a get-up attack. Notwithstanding that most people just roll away, for some reason.
 

Sunstar

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I also like D-Smash, D-Smash, (run,) U-Smash
It is a bit random, because your enemy may DI out of the U-Smash and flys away in a more or less random direction...
but a perfect hit deals 33% damage, which is 1% damage more than the U-tilt-version O.O
But nomaly the U-Smash version deals about 28% damage... so the U-tilt version is much better ;)
 

Chaco

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I also like D-Smash, D-Smash, (run,) U-Smash
It is a bit random, because your enemy may DI out of the U-Smash and flys away in a more or less random direction...
but a perfect hit deals 33% damage, which is 1% damage more than the U-tilt-version O.O
But nomaly the U-Smash version deals about 28% damage... so the U-tilt version is much better ;)
Are you doing that at low percents? Cause if not, go for the Dsmashes to SH Bair.
 

Adapt

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I should mention that some of the heavy characters can punish a d-smash (x2)>utilt with a quick dair at low percentages. King Dedede is the best example of this. Against heavies I would recommend using uair instead. You can normally get a second uair as a true combo at this point as well getting a total of 40 damage

This will be included when I get around to discussing utilt.


EDIT: Updated formatting and such, I think it looks a whole lot better than it used to. Let me know what you guys think.
 

Adapt

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I apologize for the double post, but I was reading the thread and I notices some posts I missed earlier that I have yet to add the information. I'll get to them later because I am heading to bed now.

Worth mentioning that down B into a wall will cause an automatic wall-jump.*cough*

Also,
Q: Is there a way to not auto wall jump with down B? Sometimes it ends up KILLING me when I don't want it to auto wall jump. For example, sometimes I try to down B, then up B before my opponent has time to edge hog, but then I auto wall jump off the edge which gives him time to hug the edge and edge hog me.

A:
(Note, this will mean you won't grab the ledge either)

Q: Is there any way to not sweet spot the ledge with b-up? This might sound like a stupid question but it would make spiking with b-up much easier. I know that holding down during a normal b-up makes it not sweet spot, but I can't get that to work with Zamus'.
A:
I don't think anyone has confirmed that the CHANCE of tripping actually goes up. We DO know that you can trip opponents at a higher percent with NORMAL f-tilt. The increased knockback of FD-Tilt means you send opponents into tumble faster.


Also, I'm mainly bumping for this little gem of a technique that I don't see anyone use:

RAR'd jump Up-B boosts for edgeguard

It's not really it's own technique, but a very useful combination of other techz. When you send an opponent off the stage and you predict a high recovery (I'm looking at you Snake) dash towards the edge, reverse the analog stick (to begin a RAR), jump and perform an up-b with the analog stick still pointing towards the stage (to prevent accidental pivots). This will put ZSS very high in the air, almost off stage, with her back facing the recovering opponent (perfect for B-Air).

Like I said, I know this is just a combination of other techs, but it's EXTREMELY useful and actually takes practice to not accidentally re-pivot with the up-b.

Once I started using this I can't tell you how many extra KOs I've gotten from b-airs and u-airs at such an extreme height. When your opponent catches on to the b-airs, they'll airdodge straight into your u-air, it's genius!


another one:
ledge flipkick:
After edgehogging someone's up-b with invincibility frames, forcing them to recover onto the stage (characters like Marth, Ganon, GaW, etc.) immediately drop off the ledge and down-b, you should get just barely high enough so that you get the kick out just before you land. If successful, you should hit your laggy opponent (from the up-b land lag) on the ground (down-b's strongest hit) close to the edge and towards the wall. Think of it like a CFalcon ledgehopped knee in melee. It's a great way to punish anyone with an up-b with large landing lag that's difficult to edgehog otherwise.


oh yeah, you should probably add to the ground attack section that the f-tilt and dash attack ground lock at low percents.
The difference between strong throw and weak throw is more complicated. It's actually a continuum based on the velocity of the piece. Smash thrown pieces out of a glide toss do the most damage while bouncing pieces do the least.

At least that's what I recall. I'll test it out now.

Edit: I can confirm this pretty easily, actually. A drop from short hop height does 6%, and from full jump height it does 8%.
 

teh_w0lf

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you claimed that the Up-b (I'm assuming while standing) doesn't combo into down smashes and while I would agree that its unreliable, I have used it for a while and have never seen anyone tech out (given they are between ~40-100%)

did I miss-read that or do my opponents just need to learn to tech?
 

Adapt

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you claimed that the Up-b (I'm assuming while standing) doesn't combo into down smashes and while I would agree that its unreliable, I have used it for a while and have never seen anyone tech out (given they are between ~40-100%)

did I miss-read that or do my opponents just need to learn to tech?
they need to learn how to tech...

iirc your opponent can shield the hit at low percentages, and tech it above 40% for mario (it varies by character)

The up-B>dsmash is only counted as consecutive hits above the minimum percentage at which you can tech the hit, so your opponent either has a couple frames to react, or can techroll out.
 

Sunstar

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Are you doing that at low percents? Cause if not, go for the Dsmashes to SH Bair.
Of course at low percents... but as I said: the tilt usualy is better.
The only reason for the smash is that the range of the tilt isn't high enough or you really really weakened the tilt because of the stale move negation
(but that normaly does not happen I think)

@D-Smash, D-Smash, Shor Hop, B-Air:
The coolest looking killing move in the game... ok... if it works Falcon Punch is much nicer ;)
(remember: don't feed the trolls xD )
 

Chaco

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Of course at low percents... but as I said: the tilt usualy is better.
The only reason for the smash is that the range of the tilt isn't high enough or you really really weakened the tilt because of the stale move negation
(but that normaly does not happen I think)

@D-Smash, D-Smash, Shor Hop, B-Air:
The coolest looking killing move in the game... ok... if it works Falcon Punch is much nicer ;)
(remember: don't feed the trolls xD )
If you're calling me a troll...I'd think twice...I'm on here more than you are. If not, ignore that first part. :D

Anyways, back to the disussion at hand. I can where it would be useful, but all they have to do is DI down and to the opposing direction, then they're safe.
 

DeliciousCake

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you claimed that the Up-b (I'm assuming while standing) doesn't combo into down smashes and while I would agree that its unreliable, I have used it for a while and have never seen anyone tech out (given they are between ~40-100%)

did I miss-read that or do my opponents just need to learn to tech?
Your opponents need to learn to tech AND to DI. All characters can DI out of it over ~60%.
 

teh_w0lf

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they need to learn how to tech...

iirc your opponent can shield the hit at low percentages, and tech it above 40% for mario (it varies by character)

The up-B>dsmash is only counted as consecutive hits above the minimum percentage at which you can tech the hit, so your opponent either has a couple frames to react, or can techroll out.
I figured as much...oh well...having essentially a 0 to death on everyone would have made it TOO easy ;)
 

CVaJJ

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Not sure if this is relevant to most of you, I didn't come across any posts that mentioned this. Just an interesting find or maybe something can become of this.

I was training with her against Marth, and I happened to shoot a Plasma Shot (B). Right after i did that, I threw one of her armor pieces (using the C-Stick) which reached Marth before the Plasma Shot connected. So he was it but was stunned right after, but right after the stun he flew at max intensity of a hard throw without a hit post stun.
 

DeliciousCake

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Not sure if this is relevant to most of you, I didn't come across any posts that mentioned this. Just an interesting find or maybe something can become of this.

I was training with her against Marth, and I happened to shoot a Plasma Shot (B). Right after i did that, I threw one of her armor pieces (using the C-Stick) which reached Marth before the Plasma Shot connected. So he was it but was stunned right after, but right after the stun he flew at max intensity of a hard throw without a hit post stun.
That seems nigh impossible unless the shot and armor piece hit him at the exact same time.
 

CVaJJ

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I see. I'll check the footage again some time later today. I have it stored on my SD card.

Another thing-- I 'try' to stage spike (on Final Destination, particularly where the pockets are) by D-Smash'ing opponents that are approaching the stage, but I end up doing a B-Air that launches opponents the opposite way. So it acts very similar to the second hit of her F-Air and sends them off the screen.

Just found this easier, cause stage spiking seems a lot more situational than this, even though stage spiking is more of a sure thing.
 

Adapt

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there is a weaker hitbox of bair (near her thigh) that has a chance to send the opponent in the opposite direction.
 

FadedImage

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you should also add to the d-air section the fact that it can actually be auto-canceled, you just have to be off screen to do it. It's actually pretty convenient if you get hit vertically close to the ceiling: jump so that you'll be in the hoop and d-air. You'll fly super fast with the normal d-air hitbox (which isn't half bad) and have no lag on landing. I've actually combo'd d-air to u-tilt doing this on standing opponents.
 

Rawr_

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I see. I'll check the footage again some time later today. I have it stored on my SD card.

Another thing-- I 'try' to stage spike (on Final Destination, particularly where the pockets are) by D-Smash'ing opponents that are approaching the stage, but I end up doing a B-Air that launches opponents the opposite way. So it acts very similar to the second hit of her F-Air and sends them off the screen.

Just found this easier, cause stage spiking seems a lot more situational than this, even though stage spiking is more of a sure thing.
do a flipkick spike instead, coming out of zss's dsmash has the same effect as a grab release but you can do way more out of it; dsmash then down b right as they leave the dsmash, timing takes some practice but the **** is well worth it
 

CVaJJ

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do a flipkick spike instead, coming out of zss's dsmash has the same effect as a grab release but you can do way more out of it; dsmash then down b right as they leave the dsmash, timing takes some practice but the **** is well worth it
Oh his God, I love you. I haven't even tried that yet and I'm fapping. I've been looking for ways to set up the Flip Kick's spike.

One unreliable method is that I used her d-tilt close to the edge right as they approach or before they grab the edge, and it knocks them up, then I go up and try to intercept them with the Flip Kick's spike.

no one sometimes ftilts after first jab? it's really useful at low percentages because of the trip to dtilt or dsmash if they dont try to tech in time..
To set the spike up or just use Flip Kick in general?

And about the flying stun thing, DeliciousCake. Watched the footage again, I shot the Paralyzer first, fully charged and then threw the piece of armor, so yeah, most likely reached Marth at the same time.
 

FIERCE

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Has anyone been discussing platform cancelling with ZSS on stages like Battlefield & Norfair. I was talking to Faded Image about it just now & It seems like a decent mindgame. I have it down on Battlefield I've just been practicing it on other neutrals.
 

noradseven

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Has anyone been discussing platform cancelling with ZSS on stages like Battlefield & Norfair. I was talking to Faded Image about it just now & It seems like a decent mindgame. I have it down on Battlefield I've just been practicing it on other neutrals.
neutral air (j.5A) is hilarious on platform canceling, but other than that and back air, for combos, if you degraded back air to much, bad me, not really. Platforms are for getting people to land on and punish their limited teching ability.

I use it like this if an opponents on a platform, shorthop backwards j.5A, land on platform cancel, fall though, u-air, up smash, get owned shield. Safe and confusing but they can get out.
 

FIERCE

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It's more of a flip-jump cancel done on the edge of a platform.

I've gotten it to work where if you flip jump from the bottom platform she'll do two jumps off of the edges of the top two platforms. I find it fairly effective if you're getting projectile camped. I'll try to record it.
 

ph00tbag

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Oh, you mean ledge canceling Flip Jump. It's pretty good. I do it occasionally, although most of the time I do it, it's to show off or something.
 

Adapt

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It sometimes good to do when you are getting off the edge with flipjump on stages like BF.

jump>flipjump>cancel> It's a good way to get a hitbox out to discourage trying to punish the landing lag of flipjump kick
 

Zaffy

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That armour piece juggling looks good

+ There is another use to Dair but situational and can fail,

If you knock the opponent off , you can Dair them, which if you connect, will spike them causing both of you to die

But if they air dodge, you're screwed :D
 

noradseven

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no one sometimes ftilts after first jab? it's really useful at low percentages because of the trip to dtilt or dsmash if they dont try to tech in time..
I just realized I do this, I normally do the f-down tilt version though. 3% more damage yay.

That armour piece juggling looks good

+ There is another use to Dair but situational and can fail,

If you knock the opponent off , you can Dair them, which if you connect, will spike them causing both of you to die

But if they air dodge, you're screwed :D
Its pretty much TL's down air, and should be used just as sparingly and Im sure we all knew about this already.
 

Adapt

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Updated with a team section

Let me know what you guys think and whether I forgot to mention anything.
Perhaps Snakeee might lend his experience? *hint hint* :p
 

oOJaseOo

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sorry if this is a nooby question but wouldnt PT be a good team mate for zss? bullet seed with zss up b to pull em back in then ivy to just up smash? dsmash > rock smash? 50%ish combo. Yes? no?
 
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