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Time Travel

Sargent_Peach

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I asked this question in another thread, and I didn't get an answer that satisfied my question. I'll repost here.

Alright, I have a good question, but I'm going to suck at asking it.

This is from a Harry Potter movie, I think the third one. When Harry is about to be eaten by a dementor, he thinks he sees his dad, and he thinks that he will save him. But in reality he sees himself travel back in time, and the him that traveled back in time is the one who saved him.

Now the question, the first time this happened i.e. real time, he wouldn't have had the opportunity to travel back yet, so he wouldn't have seen his dad (himself) and he wouldn't have been able to save himself. So shouldn't Harry have died and never been able to travel back in time?

This could work with almost any time travel thing where you save yourself, it doesn't have to be Harry Potter. I've thought of this a couple times, and I've never gotten a solid answer.

I hope this is clear.

Feel free to post any other time travel questions you have.
 

-=Marth_n_Roy=-

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this is going to sound ********, but go play a game called "TimeSpliters : Future Perfect"

it has a lot about what you are talking about within it, you getting rescued by future-you and having to go and rescue past-you (because you are then future you)


another way to look at it, is to picture a line with a loop
forgive my horrible art



The black is the time line, which we perceive as moving in a line always
Blue is the "Past Cortez", he continues along untill he receives help from yellow, "future cortez".

at the red mark, their interaction starts, and at that point the "time loop" begins. to avoid paradox, blue "past cortez" must now become yellow "future cortez" to avoid a paradox. at this point the original yellow(s) will continue on the normal line ahead of the loop.

in short, both have to do what the previous did to avoid a 'time paradox', so when harry realizes he has to save himself he is 'completing the loop' and continuing on.


i hope *I* was clear :)
 

psicicle

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Well, there isn't really any point in trying to think about this from a scientific standpoint because you cannot travel back in time. I do not believe you will be able to in the future either, because doing to would require enormous amounts of energy for just one person (unless the first law of thermodynamics can be violated using time travel).

Don't give me any what ifs either because you might as well ask to create a two-sided triangle. It is impossible to give an answer because there is none.
 

Mic_128

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The Doc had a great explanation of Alternate timelines though.
 

AltF4

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Altering your own past is completely against the principle of consistent histories. I'm a bit busy right now, but suffice it to say that it is impossible to travel into your own past.

Time travel movies are inherantly impossible because the truth would make for a pretty boring movie.

If you want I can elaborate later.

(PS: I really do know a lot about all this. I'm not just talking out of my ***)
 

Scav

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Fun fact: if the universe was spinning instead of expanding, time travel would not only be possible, but normal.
 

AltF4

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Yes, scav. But it is also normal now too. Antiparticles moving forward in time are equivalent to normal particles moving backward in time.

But I shouldn't have made a post without actually giving any content.

Expect a lengthy discussion tonight involving the nature of time and time travel. (whatever that may mean)

I love this stuff :)
 

Mechareaper

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There are experements using lasers to bend space, much like a black hole does, capable of sending a particle back to any time the machine has been active. Whenever I think of time travel my mind feels like its going to explode because of all the weird paradoxes that confuse the hell out of me. Like the grandfather paradox which goes like this: a man goes back in time and kills his grandfather before his grandfather met his grandfather. Therefore the man should never have been born, but if he was never born how could he go back in time to kill his grandfather? There are several principles, such as your actions in the past must be compatable with what has occured in the future, there fore you couldn't change anything because your actions are part of the history that made the future. Also, the time traveler cannot do anything to prevent himself from traveling back in time (like killing his own grandfather) Another is the possiblility of alternate timelines, which surprisingly has some base to it, although I don't see how traveling back would take you to an alternate timeline, or maybe it just creates a new timeline.
 

Crimson King

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Read A Brief History of Time by Stephen Hawkins. It actually explains how time travel could be possible in theory, we just don't have the capabilities yet.

Also, altering your own history is not only possible, assuming time travel existed, but makes a ton of sense. Harry was living in the altered present. Had his present self never saw his "father" he never would have went to the lake to see if it was him. Had he not gone to the lake he never would have saved himself.
 

Crimson King

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Hawkins wrote it for the common man, not the physicist. In fact, it was said that for ever formula it would reduce the audience by some number. So he has only one formula.
 

The Mad Hatter

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Dude, I got both of Hawkins recent books. A Brief History, and The Universe in a Nutshell. The Universe in a Nutshell is so much easier to read. I'll bring them to you next time I come over.
 

psicicle

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"There are experements using lasers to bend space, much like a black hole does, capable of sending a particle back to any time the machine has been active"

wait, does that mean that there are two of that particle all of a sudden in that time period (and now)? Where does the energy come from that compensates for the particle's disappearance (and reappearance)?
 

Wuss

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I like to think of time as always happening. Basically, every single moment, there is a me typing this paragraph out, it's just a couple of seconds ago or whatever. In other words, there was no "first time" that harry got killed by the dementor. It always was happening that in the future, harry came back to save himself. Just like in Bill and Ted's excellent adventure. How they see themselves from the future coming back from the journey they are just about to go on. And when they come back, they go through the same thing.

"What number are we thinking of?"
"69 dudes!"
 

Metticus

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Well time travel can't really be explained perfectly without running into a paradox or two. If time travel were possible though, i'd say you can only tavel back in time to just after the moment of change+the amount of time elapsed.

Ill make an example.

John and Berry are time travelers.

John stayes in the present, Berry goes back in time and kills John's Grandpa in Jan,1,1930 at 12:00 pm.

Since the flow of time is constant, John's timeline is unchanged, while Berry's time line changes.

24 hour pass John travels back in time to Jan,2,1930 12:01 pm, John's Grandfather is still alive. John then travels back 1 minute to 12:00 and enter's Berry's alternate timeline and John's grandfather is dead. John and Berry then travel to the future only slighly or as much as they want from that point and Berry's timeline is still and always will be in effect.

Well thats at least how i see the flow of time.
 

Mr.GAW

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I've never thought of it that way before. I gotta be honest, that doesn't make much sense to me.
 

AltF4

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Secrets of the Universe: Revealed!

Ah ha! So you fell for the old, "Secrets of the Universe" ploy, eh? Well, since you're here I might as well get on with things.

The following is from a blog of mine. As promised, I hope to have an intelligent discussion regarding time travel. It is targeted towards those who have little to no scientific background. So don't worry about not being familiar with any of this. I hope to not scare anyone away! Here it goes:

Last night as I was on my computer, Alicia felt adventurous and read the beginning to "A Briefer History of Time" by Stephen Hawking. I was quite pleased that she actually found it at least mildly interesting, and of course it got me thinking. I picked up the book myself and began reading. Now, I had already read the previous version, "A Brief History of Time". (The before mentioned book being a newer, updated, more concise version of the latter) But the new version has some worthwhile additions, and it was right about then that "Back to the Future" came on TV.

Which brings me to the topic of this blog: Time travel. What exactly is meant by this, what is the real science behind it, and what is actually possible? I didn't wind up watching the movie on TV like I had with "I, Robot", but I've seen it before. It's a good flick if you haven't yet.

First, to be able to talk about "Time Travel", we have to talk a little bit about "Time". Everyone has at least a mild understanding of what time is, even the ancient people did. The first time detecting devices were sun dials build in upwards up 5,500 years ago. But the first real "clocks" were water clocks made by the Egyptians around 1400 BC. These were machines that regularly dripped water from one container to another, and the amount of water in the bottom container could tell you how much time has passed. Our modern day clocks are essentially the same thing, but with more updated methods of achieving the same goal. We constantly run out of time, we never have enough, and no matter what we seem to do it just keeps marching along. So let's look at some of the assumptions that we've made about time so far that we might not have realized we've made.

Assumptions:
1) Time has two directions, forward and back.
2) Time tends to move from back to forward at a regular rate.
3) Time is independent of other factors such as space. (Meaning that time acts the same way to somebody in Europe as in Arizona)

These seem like perfectly reasonable assumptions, yes? So from these, we might conclude that (in the immortal words of Groucho Marx) "Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana" And this is the common conception of Time that most have. This is where we base our questions of "Time Travel" on. We wonder if it is possible to travel back into the past, or into the future. But we shall see in a moment that things are not always as they seem.

The revolution regarding how we understand time all began with Albert Einstein. For some years before him, it was observed that light when traveling through space seemed to always go at the same speed. Now give this a thought for just a second. Speed is relative, which means that there is no physical difference between you running into a parked car on your bike at 15 mph, and a car moving at 15 mph hitting you on your bike stopped at a crosswalk. When you say the speed of something, you must say what it is moving "in relation to". So when we say that we're going 75mph on I-10, we really mean to say "we're moving 75 mph in relation to the ground on the I-10". Because of course in relation to the other cars on the road you're not moving at all, and in relation to the cars on the other side of the road, you're moving at 150 mph!

So when we say that light "always moves at the same speed"... the important question to ask is "moving in relation to what?" Many people tried to come up with answers to this question, even coming up with notions of a "light ether" that light moves in relation to. But none of these ideas were consistent with what observation was telling us. Then finally Einstein stepped in and laid the truth on everyone.

The speed of light is constant, relative to anything and everything! To any observer, regardless of where you are or how fast you're moving, if you see light then it's moving at the speed of light. Sounds simple enough, right? What's the problem? Well it means that the very nature of existence is relative. That means that the light coming from your car's headlights move at the same speed in relation to both a passenger in the car, a person standing by the road, and a person coming the opposite way down the road. Each of these people will observe the light from the car passing different places at the same time!

These discrepancies are not illusions, or tricks, they are real. Light doesn't just "appear" to be moving at the same speed always, it IS always moving a the same speed for all observers. What happens is as you travel faster and faster, time slows down for you. And the closer you travel to the speed of light, the more noticeable the effects are. These small disagreements are called "Time Dilations". That means if you had two clocks (that keep perfect time) and sent one on a plane trip around the world and back, when you put them back next to each other, they would disagree on what time it is!

You can see immediately that time is far more complex than previously thought. It is not just like an arrow. It speeds up, slows down, and is different for anything depending on your stance.

So does it still even make sense to ask questions regarding "Time Travel"? Only partially. Time still does have direction, it's just that it is relative. So when we want to travel back in time, there is no supreme ultimate clock with which to base our travels. (As in Back to the Future)


Now that we have a more accurate understanding of the nature of time, we can explore the methods and philosophies behind time travel.

The first and most important idea I would like to bring up is "The Principle of Consistent Histories". This principle states simply that history must have one single and unchanging record of what has happened. Put another way, the Colts must have either won the Super Bowl last year or not. It cannot be both, it cannot be neither, and it the fact of whether they did or not cannot change. Quantum theory demands that the future (and present) be represented in uncertain terms, but the past but have a definite concrete answer.

This rules out immediately traveling into your own past. You can think about this in terms of the "Grandfather Paradox". If you were able to travel into your own past, you could shoot and kill your own grandfather. So then you would never be born. But since you were never born, you wouldn't be able to go back and kill your grandfather, so you would be alive. So which are you, alive or dead? They should both be true, and both be false, if you could travel into your own past.

What IS feasible is traveling into the "past" of a parallel universe. It really isn't proper to speak of this as time travel though because this other universe's time is entirely separate from ours. It would just so happen that the events occurring when you got there are similar to the ones that happened in our past.

One other important idea to mention is that of a "Worm Hole". The idea is rather just like what the name implies. It is a hole in space itself that leads to another area in space. These are not proven to exist, but could in principle exist, depending on the contour of space. Albert Einstein also showed that time is a dimension of space, it is literally the 4th dimension. In fact he coined the term space-time. When we speak of space, we also necessarily speak of time and vice versa. (which means that not only when you speed up does time slow down, but space itself contracts!) If we were to somehow "tear" space and come up on the other side, it would be a different region of space at an arbitrary point in time. This is the closest thing to real time travel that can be achieved by today's reasoning.

The problem with worm holes is the only way we can think to move space enough to tear it is using black holes, and getting too close to one of those is not a very good idea. So it would seem that the prospects for real time travel is kind of slim.

But you could still do some time traveling using today's technology, no joke. If you were to board a space ship and go really fast for a while. Just take a trip around the solar system for a couple of years traveling at speeds in upwards of 1% of the speed of light. When you came back thousands of years will have passed on earth. Everyone you know will have been long dead, and every place you loved will be rubble. But think of the crazy cool video games they'll have!

What do you all make of this? Is it possible to make a good time travel movie that actually does make sense in a scientific way? Does any of this just seem to weird to be true?

Thanks for reading!
 

AltF4

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Hey, Sargent, you ought to read my thread "Secrets of the Universe". I hope I sum most of the basics up pretty well. It's not really that confusing!
 

psicicle

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Something you can add is that we judge the direction or time by the increase in disorder, or entropy. For example, pots can break easily and take a lot more energy to put back together than was needed to break it in the first place. Things with a higher temperature tend to have a higher entropy than things at a low temperature. FOr example, water in its frozen form is a very orderly crystal shape when zoomed in. When it is in its gas form, the molecules do not have any pattern; they are more random.

Entropy can be mathermatically described by the number of arrangements or something; I'm not so clear on the math.

Anyway, I believe that backwards time travel is not going to happen at a large enough scale for people to go back in time. Assuming that you can not only travel time, but also pinpoint where you end up in space in the past, it would be a huge strain on energy. This is because unless the laws of thermodynamics turn out not to work for time travel, you could just send say, a 100 dollar bill back in the past and that 100 dollar bill will coexist with its past version. Once the past catches up to the present, you would end up with two 100 dollar bills. This means that a time travel machine has to be able to pretty much <i>duplicate</i> anything at the molecular level, which would take a HUGE amount of energy. Right now, we cannot create a clone of relatively simple objects such as, well, pretty much everything you can see. I doubt time travel would be such a convenient tool.
 

Frozenserpent

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I keep hearing about how they say a positron is an electron travelling backwards in time. I don't recall the rudimentary bit i learned about quantum mechanics, but i assume this is has to do with the spin of the quantum particles that composes a positron and electron?

Can anyone clarify this?

Edit: If anything, time travel, if possible, would be used to further our understanding of the universe. I highly highly doubt it would ever be feasible to send a whole object in time.

Let's see if i recall all the effects of speeding up.... mass increases, thus, as you approach the speed of light, your mass approaches infinity, meaning it would require an infinite force to achieve speed of light.
Your length in the dimension of your travel elongates.
Time slows down for you.

If i recall correctly, photons have 0 mass, the speed of light(obviously), but it does have momentum? (correct me on this one).


I didn't manage to finish "A universe in a nutshell", but it was fascinating to say the least. Crazy to imagine the 2 spin and other stuff.
 

Crimson King

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We have a topic called "Time Travel Logic?" two posts down from this one. I will assume you meant to post there and not warn you for not using the search or your eyes. I'll also merge the topics for you.
 

Crimson King

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John stayes in the present, Berry goes back in time and kills John's Grandpa in Jan,1,1930 at 12:00 pm.

Since the flow of time is constant, John's timeline is unchanged, while Berry's time line changes.

24 hour pass John travels back in time to Jan,2,1930 12:01 pm, John's Grandfather is still alive. John then travels back 1 minute to 12:00 and enter's Berry's alternate timeline and John's grandfather is dead. John and Berry then travel to the future only slighly or as much as they want from that point and Berry's timeline is still and always will be in effect.

Well thats at least how i see the flow of time.
John wouldn't have entered Berry's(Barry's?) timeline as he entered on 12:01pm (noon) on the day after his grandfather was killed. Going a minute backwards would prove nothing but the fact he is still 24 hours late. Also, since Berry killed HIS grandfather, he'd cease to be because his forefather's bloodline is gone.
 

AltF4

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Frozen:
Yea, an antiparticle moving forward in time is equivalent to a regular particle moving backward. Particle and antiparticle pairs pop in and out of existence all the time. Viewing them from the point of view of an observer moving forward in time (like us) the pair appear to "spring out of nowhere, separate, collide again and destroy each other".

But remember: the antiparticle we see moving forward is also a regular particle moving backward in time. So another interpretation (just as valid, but perhaps more useful) would be that the particle exists within a finite time loop. It moves forward in time, reaches a the end and then travels back in time to the start again. (Where it would procede to go and move forward in time all over again, hence the loop)

Metticus:
In my (very long, I know) previous post, I described the principle of consistent histories. It simply states that there must be only one unchanging past. You cannot go into the past and change it. Anything that Berry is "about to do" must be consistent with what has already happened. Thus, you could take a vacation to the past, but you don't have any choice over your actions there. (Because what you do on your vacation has already happened!) This is certainly a perplexing situation, and brings up the topic of free will... but we won't get into that.
 

Deuterium

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Bill and Ted

If you haven't already seen Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure (1989), I highly recommend it. It is easily my favourite time travel film, with Back to the Future Part II (1989) in second.

The reason why I bring up old Bill and Ted from the depths of the late '80s is to pose an interesting scene. Enjoy:

Bill and Ted need to get into the cells in the local police station to help their time travel friends escape. Ted's father works at the station, so if Ted remembers later to go back in time and grab the keys and put them behind the police station sign, Bill and Ted will find the keys now and let out their friends. Bill and Ted look behind the police station sign, and as sure as A Clockwork Orange (1971) is creepy, the keys are there. "Hey, dude! It worked!" (That's not a quote, but we all know it something they might say.) But, Ted reasons that if they've already got the keys, there's no need for them to go back to get the keys.

Bill and Ted chose not to help themselves because they had already been helped.

How does that suit your grey matter? Personally, I just see it as a stab by the writers to try and rip a hole in the space-time continuum...
 

AltF4

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That's what I was hinting about earlier: If you go back in time, you have to give up your free will. You have to act in a way consistent with history.

I think I would also like to take the time to distinguish two very different kinds of time travel that were mentioned so far: Continuous and discontinuous.

The antiparticle example (read above post) shows continuous time travel. That means that it goes back in time by actually moving backward in time until it gets where it needs to go.

Discontinuous time travel is what you usually see in movies. Where you *poof* disappear and then reappear in a different time, without any actual "travel" if you know what I mean.

Continuous time travel may seem wierd (the particle time loop), but it is mathematically and phyically sound. Discontinuous time travel however causes a few problems... suffice it to say that it's impossible. To really go in depth would venture too far off of the topic of time travel, I think.
 

straight8

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That's what I was hinting about earlier: If you go back in time, you have to give up your free will. You have to act in a way consistent with history.

I think I would also like to take the time to distinguish two very different kinds of time travel that were mentioned so far: Continuous and discontinuous.

The antiparticle example (read above post) shows continuous time travel. That means that it goes back in time by actually moving backward in time until it gets where it needs to go.

Discontinuous time travel is what you usually see in movies. Where you *poof* disappear and then reappear in a different time, without any actual "travel" if you know what I mean.

Continuous time travel may seem wierd (the particle time loop), but it is mathematically and phyically sound. Discontinuous time travel however causes a few problems... suffice it to say that it's impossible. To really go in depth would venture too far off of the topic of time travel, I think.
No time travel is mathematically possible. You can't treat time like it is a medium or it is even a definite thing. People are in time and they can't control it because it governs them. This may be a bad analogy, but it is like a rock not falling with gravity. There is a natural set of laws ( time moves forward, objects w/ mass fall) that can't be changed by things under them. And even though it is theoretical to do all these things with time, it is just that: theoretical. I think time travel is impossible also becasue if it were, those in the future would have come back and stopped wars from happeing and assasinations and stuff like that...
Yeah.
 

AltF4

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Straight8:
Try reading my long post, I know it's a lot of text, but it's worth it. Without saying what I've already said: You're Wrong. Sorry to burst your bubble. Unless you know something Einstein and every physicist since him doesn't.

But I was in your position at one point. I didn't believe that time was real, that it was just sort of a made up way of expressing something that isn't tangible. But that's wrong. Time is built into the fabric of space. You can stretch it, compress it, and even tear it.
 

straight8

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AltF4Warrior:
I know you are well read and you understand these concepts and all, but I still disagree. I'm sorry.
First, worm holes.. Tearing a hole in space to reach a fourth demension is not really somethnig feasible to people. Also, Worm holes are still theoretcial. You also suggest parelle universes where they lead, and that is also something that cannot be proven (mathematcally or otherwise). I'll say more on this later..

And Don't you die when you go near a worm hole? Theoretically?
 

psicicle

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"And even though it is theoretical to do all these things with time, it is just that: theoretical. I think time travel is impossible also becasue if it were, those in the future would have come back and stopped wars from happeing and assasinations and stuff like that...
Yeah."

bad reason, there are many theoretical designs that only allow people to go back to the point of the ime machine's creation

Also, every time you see somebody else move or you move, you are either speeding up or slowing down the passage of time. It can be controlled; it is a medium. There is plenty of experimental evidence to back this up also- people have observed that when something is moving, clocks will slow down compared to the clocks that were not moving (all in relation to the earth).

Also, parallel universes are impossible to verify or disprove experimentally. They are not really a scientific hypothesis right now.
 

Lanowen

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"And even though it is theoretical to do all these things with time, it is just that: theoretical. I think time travel is impossible also becasue if it were, those in the future would have come back and stopped wars from happeing and assasinations and stuff like that...
Yeah."

bad reason, there are many theoretical designs that only allow people to go back to the point of the ime machine's creation

Also, every time you see somebody else move or you move, you are either speeding up or slowing down the passage of time. It can be controlled; it is a medium. There is plenty of experimental evidence to back this up also- people have observed that when something is moving, clocks will slow down compared to the clocks that were not moving (all in relation to the earth).

Also, parallel universes are impossible to verify or disprove experimentally. They are not really a scientific hypothesis right now.
Your lack of logic and knowledge on the topic overwhelms me.
 

AltF4

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Parallel universes can be confirmed scientifically. This isn't directly about time travel so i'll just point you in the right direction. Try looking up Hawking's reversal on his stance that information cannot leave a black hole. Of you can't find it, I can explain.

Straight8:
You can choose to believe what you want, but it would be a shame if you didn't even consider that maybe all these guys with Phd's are on to something.

*posted via Wii*

Edit:
Lanowen:
Not all of his post was wrong. The part about speeding up and slowing down time every time you move is basic relativity.
 

AltF4

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Okay, no prob. To answer your question "could the scene in Harry Potter make sense"? The answer would be: Yes with a couple of big If's.

It would have to be a continuous travel (but in the movie it sorta looks like it is. Remember how they watch everyone around them move backward as they go back in time?)

Also they would be forced to act in such a way that is consistent with history. This will mean that Harry will have no free will.

That being said, the it would appear that the universe conspires against human time travelers. The Einstein-rosen bridge (wormhole) is only big enough for a single particle to fit. And there's not a whole lot of other possibilities anyone's thought of.us But it's possible in principle.

*posted via wii*
 

Mechareaper

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All these points about time and particles moving forward and backward in time gives me an interesting thought. Is free will only an illusion? Its kind of hard for me to put the thought into words but, because of constant histories would that mean that what occures in the future, or at least the near future, is pre determined? That also recalls in my mind a theory realating to the creation of the universe where at the end of the Universe's expansion perhaps it will snap back, and go back into its origional state of a super dense singularity, and then expand again in the very same way it expanded before, atom by atom, leaving the possiblility that everything that has ever happened and ever will happened in the universe down to the tiniest particle has already occured, perhaps countless times, again leaving the question, is free will only an illusion?

Also, I guess I had never thought of anti-particles in terms of time, but I suppose that would relate to why they annihilate when they come into contact with regular particles.
 

Lanowen

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Jul 24, 2005
Messages
2,462
Location
Mississauga Ontario, Canada
Lanowen:
Not all of his post was wrong. The part about speeding up and slowing down time every time you move is basic relativity.
I am throughly aware of the Theory of Relativity and other time travel mechanisms.

It was more directed at his statements about the human nature of the future and his statements on the impossibilities of something he doesn't understand.
 

psicicle

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
618
Your inability to see these: "" overwhelms me.

What kind of argument is that? I really hope nobody is convinced by your "argument". Try backing up what you said. I am not wrong, what I said is, if you need to hear it again is:

bad reason, there are many theoretical designs that only allow people to go back to the point of the time machine's creation.

I know this for a fact, because many people have theoretical designs of time machines.


in response to "Parallel universes can be confirmed scientifically. This isn't directly about time travel so i'll just point you in the right direction. Try looking up Hawking's reversal on his stance that information cannot leave a black hole. Of you can't find it, I can explain."
(notice the quotation marks?)

How? I think that you are talking about Hawking radiation? Wormholes are something that arises out of mathematics I think. I don't think they have been detected or anything yet. Also, if it is possible, why hasn't anybody done it? Is it just possible in theory so far?
 
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