Time to wake up and smell the coffee

[shanus]

Been talking with a lot of people, and they haven't been pleased with our change happy state lately. I discussed these with GoG, Shell, Cape, and a few others. Also got opinions from Silven, Bum, Wes, and others.

Changelist Beta 4.1 (Wake up and smell the coffee version!):

Hitbox Changes removed:
-ROB fair nerf
-Falco shine buff
-Falco Laser nerf
-falco fair buff
-Ganon down B always spikes
-Snake damage tilt nerfs (ftilt and utilt back to normal)
-Snake Jab nerf
-Sonic spike upsmash

Value Changes:
-Ganon wizkick aka Wiztruck: set to 85 BKB 80KBG
-Ganon Aerial downB modified:
-first hitbox: spike 100 KBG and 50 BKB
-second hitbox: meteor 65KBG and 20BKB
-Bowser upB first hitbox KBG new: 90 original: 80
-Ganon can now downB and re-obtain second jump

Hitbox Additions:
-Sonic's nair changes (by overwhelming sonic player demand):
-hitbox 1: 11dmg 80 KBG 30BKB angle:20 (KBG increased by 5 to 85, BKB increased to 50 from 30)
-hitbox 2: BKB increased by 10 (30 from 20)
-hitbox 3: unchanged

Frame Speed Modifications:
-Ganon Murder Quake: Change to 1.85x
-Removed Falco Shine Speed Changes
-Remove Kirby FSmash
-Remove Ivy dair speed up (since multiple upBs)

Frame Speed Modifications added (working properly this time):
-Lucario Uthrow wind-down +6 frames.
-Pika Dthrow lag +5 frames, Pika grab start-up +1 frame.
-Wario Dthrow lag +3 frames, Wario grab start-up +1 frame.

Code Changes:
-Added unrestricted pause camera

 

[goodoldganon]

You saw me rage in the other topic about changes, and though my mouth got me in trouble and offended our co-workers I still stand by the fact we got a little out of hand with these changes. I won't disagree many of them were really cool but we were going down a very slippery slope. Giving characters all these new tactics with minimal tournament data was a bad idea. Now if down the road something comes up about Falco that makes him crappy we have his shine as a backup.

Fact is we got a little antsy with changes and I'm not really mad but as the topic says, it's time to wake-up and reevaluate what we tried to change. Overall I think removing all of these changes is a great start. I'd still like to discuss Extreme Speed and the Wolf Shine changes (I'm for Wolf's against Lucario's) but I'm not sure if this is proper place to do it.

 

[shanus]

Yeah, a major thing I got worried about was multiple credible players (read melee and brawl pro's sent me convos which were showing people losing faith in our credibility due to our change happy state). Before we release a final version of this set, we really should evaluate everything and really fine tune it.

 

[goodoldganon]

P.S. I'm not sure this is the right place to post it, but the second aerial hit box on the Wiz Kick still seems a little too ****. It was a bad idea to test it on D3, one of the characters with the best vertical recoveries. Characters like Bowser and DK were screwed past 10% and many others as early as 25%.

 

[CT Chia]

I'm glad a lot of these changes have been fixed, I've been talking to a lot of people about everything as well such as Silven. Hopefully this will keep everyone back here to think a little more about when making such odd changes.

I've personally been sort of meh about Brawl+ lately with all of the radical unneeded changes going on lately. I haven't been playing it too much, haven't been posting back here much, but hopefully this realization will help me get back into it.

So once we look over the rest of the codes (which I'll also look into later) then that should solify the codeset that will be used at my tournament on the 16th right?

 

[shanus]

My goal is to have it all polished before Apex Chibo.


The main question to ask is should I remove Wolfs shine?




Any other superfluous changes or things people want to see adjusted?
OP updated

 

[Revven]

Just save the trouble of having to deal with complaints later and remove Wolf's shine.

 

[goodoldganon]

The CGs seemed to work as usual last night. I'm 100% positive Wario's still worked. I was having trouble as Pikachu's so maybe his might be fixed. Lucario's still seemed usable but you could DI behind and he had to pivot grab to be able to get to you. Either way, someone with more knowledge and practice should look into them but I feel like they all still around.

Also, I'd say add the speed change to Falco's shine. Jab -> Shine was reliable in Brawl if I remember but it's too punishable in Brawl+. It's not gonna make the move super usable.

I think JCeasar summed up Wolf's shine change pretty well. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=7327848&postcount=5886 I said it before, Wolf is very average without his new shine, so the new one isn't making him super good but do average characters need buffs? I say remove it and do what we did to Falcon's D-air to Wolf's D-air.

Extreme Speed...nuff said.

I'd drop Bowser's F-smash slightly for teams. Seemed a little nuts in teams last night. Then again Bowser just might be relegated to a monster teammate and mediocre 1v1.

I really couldn't find anything else too absurd in the change list. Most changes have been given to poor characters or fixing broken things (N-aircides with Ike, U-tilt 'combos')

 

[Revven]

In turn, if you really want to buff Wolf's shine, lessen the wind-down it has so when he breaks combos he can Fsmash them away or Dsmash them away like he could in vBrawl (well, some people have told me Wolf couldn't do that before but eh). And of course buff the Dair like GoG said.

Then Wolf would be good.

 

[CT Chia]

in all honesty, whats so bad about wario's cg? i havent found it to make any broken matchups at all. it only works to 42%, works on about 1/4th of the cast, and just adds the damage. its unlike vBrawl falco's cg where that worked on everyone, and could lead into his dair meteoring ppl for an easy kill. wario's cg can not follow up into any other attack.

 

[Almas]

Yes, I think many of the changes made have been a bit silly. You should be thinking about who needs buffs, not which moves could be made more awesome. But I wouldn't take it too harshly. The purpose of betas is testing stuff that is probably quite stupid.

 

[Deleted member]

all I can add is changing the lag after lucario upB 20x is way to fast. put it a t 3x and see how that works out.

we totally didn't anticipate on the wing refresh he has, and with the reduced cooldown we have unneccasarily shifted his playstyle

 

[Revven]

in all honesty, whats so bad about wario's cg? i havent found it to make any broken matchups at all. it only works to 42%, works on about 1/4th of the cast, and just adds the damage. its unlike vBrawl falco's cg where that worked on everyone, and could lead into his dair meteoring ppl for an easy kill. wario's cg can not follow up into any other attack.

If we keep this CG, we're going to have people coming in from NOWHERE and saying:

"Why remove Falco's 50% CG and keep Wario's? That's hypocrisy."
"Why are there still CGs? I thought Brawl+'s idea was to get rid of CGs (or most)!"

etc.

As it is, CowTipper (Yes!) already posted about it and that's only the start of it. Soon we'll be having hordes of people whining about it. It's really easy to do too and inescapable until 42%. As much as I like it, it really needs to go tbh. It makes every stock for the first 50% a cat and mouse game for the characters that can be CG'd. I don't think we want this in Brawl+ to occur at all.

 

[CT Chia]

its not really a bad thing to remove per say, but its not as much of a priority compared to other things. iv already pointed out the differences between that and falco or DDDs chain grab. but now when u say remove all CGs... do you mean just ones where you dont have to follow DI like warios, or all of em, even DI dependant ones such as lucarios.

if all of us agreed that there should be some guaranteed follow up tactics in the game, i dont see how a cg is very different.
we have ganondorf be able to have a guaranteed jab after you land an overB. (kind of funny comparing them since both overB and grabs go through shield). this combo does 17% if im not mistaken, and can be started out of a tech chase.
whats worse?
wario being able to 0-42 about a quarter of the cast or
ganondorf being able to land a combo starting from an attack u can get out of a tech chase that goes through shields, which tacks on 17% working on any character at any percents.

 

[Revven]

its not really a bad thing to remove per say, but its not as much of a priority compared to other things. iv already pointed out the differences between that and falco or DDDs chain grab. but now when u say remove all CGs... do you mean just ones where you dont have to follow DI like warios, or all of em, even DI dependant ones such as lucarios.

I didn't say all I was giving an example of what people would say, what their opinion on it would be. The thing about Lucario's CG is that it works on any percent, while Wario's doesn't... Lucario's CG is thus better than Wario's by default.

I mean, it's not like removing Wario's CG suddenly makes Snake or Captain Falcon have the advantage on Wario, because Wario still has setups on them from Dthrow (assuming we do it right) and he still as is, combos like a beast.

But, whatever people wanna do. It's just my opinion that it should go OR be weakened somewhat.

 

[The Cape]

But I dont like Coffee

Its good that we now have these in a backup storage vault, but I just had to ask on two in particular.

Ivy dair speedup removed. The move had more uses than just recovery and the slow speed that it is at now makes the move completely useless. I would personally like to see Alopex give this bad boy a rework to see what he can do as it has potential. The move is such a high risk with moderate payback, which is basically what Ivysaur is as a whole. Maybe give the move as a whole a bit more KBG or something, but as it is now (speed removed) its completely useless. The 2x speed up on winddown was definetly a bit much, but we should try something like 1.5x to be sure.

Bowser upB, how much weaker did we make fortress from its original buff? Strong Fortress has always been a Bowser staple and with good spacing its not like doing it out of sheild is broken or not. Bowser should have that really strong GTFO move as he is a punishing character and he should be able to kill you low for making a mistake (take downB and F smash).

Other than that they all seem good, but I would like to see those two revisted just to be sure.

 

[Alopex]

I like what's been removed.

I think Ivy Dair just needs a retooling (I'll get on that).

I think Ganon's DownB needs to stop getting messed with. Seriously. It gets changed every freaking set and every set it gets more broken. GoG already gave us the feedback on what its problem is THIS time...
Just stop being stubborn and go back to using the change that Cape/GoG made, or just revert the move to its vBrawl state. WHY is this move getting so much unneeded, unwarranted attention?
It's got a wind-down reduction, that's already a good enough buff. It doesn't need ridiculous power and ******** spiking to go along with it. And on top of that, it's giving back DJ's now too. Really, why is so much effort being put into making this move godly?

 

[shanus]

But I dont like Coffee

Its good that we now have these in a backup storage vault, but I just had to ask on two in particular.

Ivy dair speedup removed. The move had more uses than just recovery and the slow speed that it is at now makes the move completely useless. I would personally like to see Alopex give this bad boy a rework to see what he can do as it has potential. The move is such a high risk with moderate payback, which is basically what Ivysaur is as a whole. Maybe give the move as a whole a bit more KBG or something, but as it is now (speed removed) its completely useless. The 2x speed up on winddown was definetly a bit much, but we should try something like 1.5x to be sure.

Bowser upB, how much weaker did we make fortress from its original buff? Strong Fortress has always been a Bowser staple and with good spacing its not like doing it out of sheild is broken or not. Bowser should have that really strong GTFO move as he is a punishing character and he should be able to kill you low for making a mistake (take downB and F smash).

Other than that they all seem good, but I would like to see those two revisted just to be sure.

It was brought to my attention the fortress was still killing people below 100% haha. That was with DI . Don't worry, it still hits hard.


I'll re-add the Ivy dair, I just thought he didn't need the stall if he had multiple upB's, but i'll add t back in.


Also Alopex, the former iterations of the wizkick were stronger than the version I have made now. You know that, right?

 

[goodoldganon]

The current Wiz Kick is much more manageable. It certainly owns people with straight horizontal recoveries, but that's just called a bad matchup. People just need to remember to meteor cancel. Long story short, current Wiz Kick in this set is good to go. If we can fix techable Side-B Ganon would be 100% done (we'd have to remove the grab release speed up of course) but for now Ganon is probably the biggest powerhouse in the game and that's the way it should be. I foresee him being a massive team and FFA threat but not as big of one as he was before with the Wiz Tank.

Has anyone done more testing on the throw modifications? I swear they weren't working but I have never been a big chaingrabber so I am not sure.

 

[goodoldganon]

EDIT: EDITED THIS TO SOUND LESS WHINY AND DEMANDING. I'M JUST HIGHLIGHTING THE POPULAR COMPLAINTS TO SEE WHAT WE WANT TO DO WITH THEM...

The problem is we have been going about giving tweaks to characters that frankly didn't need it. We tweaked characters based to someone's liking back here (ZSS and Fox for example) because we had the power to, and that's is NOT the kind of buff we should be looking for.

I have highlighted the changes that I hear complaints about. We need to discuss these changes in my opinion...

KB Changes
-Falco shine change re-added now that we know attackID 0F gives hitstun, at 120¼ angle from 20¼, and has 80 BKB from 35 (PLEASE PROVIDE FEEDBACK)
-Falco lasers nerfed to 2 damage from 3 damage
-I'd like to reevaluate the ICs again. I don't care how 'gay CGs, I just don't think we need to rethink their entire game.
-ZSS fsmash electric hits are +2 damage, +2 bkb
-ZSS fsmash last hitbox (the backwards hit), 8 damage from 6, 16 kbg from 100, 128 bkb from 65, 106 degree launch angle, hits forward overhead almost constant kb
-ZSS overB whip is 13 damage, +5 kbg, +5 bkb (to offset the kb changes caused by lower damage)

Frame Changes
-Falco Shine: Frame 0: .5x, Frame 4: 1x, Frame 7: 1.5x
-I'd like to discuss the Murder Choke release. The Murder Choke just isn't that useful anymore because of teching.
-Ivy upB double end lag to compensate for multiple upBs I don't care if we are gonna give Ivy the Olimar hop, this change is dumb and everyone knows it. No half ***** fixes please. Wait until we get the hop, if a tourney happens before we get the hop then tough **** and don't use her.
-Ivysaur Razor Leaf after frame 10 is 1.5x faster. Needs readjusted, not removed
-Lucario upB softlanding endlag 20x
-Lucario upB travels 25% faster
-Lucario Up and B works 1.5x faster
-Lucario Double Team 2x winddown Fix the real problem or don't fix it at all.
-Sonic D smash comes out 2x as fast, has more windown (frame 19, endlag frame speed .5x) Needs tweaked or we should go with a KB increase
-Wolf shine frame 15, 2x Isn't doing anything
-Zelda Up-B reapperance Needs tweaking, not removed

Misc Crap
-Frozen Spear Pillar- We have a good amount of neutrals and counterpicks, no need to ruin a perfectly good friendly stage. If we are deadset on fixing Spear Pillar how about we wait for a code that does what we want. All the current Spear Pillar is just crap. No lulz Pokemans but still has all the design problems of the original Spear Pillar (cave and loops)
-Ness PKT1- Don't get knocked off

Overall I'm sure I'm being too critical, but I feel at least someone has to be. I feel besides maybe myself, Chibo and Alopex everyone is gung-ho about changes. Either way, these are the popular complaints I hear. Some have validity, others not so much.

 

[The Cape]

Ivy razor leaf is not overpowered. Ask the guys that I played at the armory after the tourney and took the time to teach the matchup to. The projectile is ****ty and allows Ivy the options to force approaches on her as she is really easy to camp. Multi upBs should go and put in the Oli hop, take em out for now.

Lucario upB is too fast, needs reworked

Lucario double team speed up needs to go, its super campy.

Wolf shine I cant tell if its doing something or not.

Zelda upB reappearance is lagless, super campy and hard to punish.

I just have to say this as well. The DDD that fought Guru and got camped is stupid and Silven is a whiny ****. Learn to play the matchup, dont nerf the character just because you cant fight the character for ****. Ivy forward B is excellent where it is now and should not need to be retooled, people just need to learn how to play the matchups.

I had people tell me Ivy is easy as **** to play and broken and all that crap. So I challenge them to play Ivy in this "super easy side B" mode. I approach, get in, and beat the **** out of them. Also, Ivy is easy to gimp, and I do it every time, really really easy. People need to learn the matchup instead of being ****ty players and whiny *****es.

 

[goodoldganon]

Alopex wanted to try Zelda's up-b reappearance at 1.85x.

 

[CT Chia]

ivysaurs overB is broken and OP, definitely. i wasnt sure about it before btl, but after watching gurukid v basic, it was rediculous. gurukid literallty was able to do nothing but throw razorleaf after razorleaf, and basic couldnt do anything about it. nothing

it even got to the point where basic was over 200% and razor leafs would combo into each other. it only ended when gurukid stopped it to get a kill. he had done it for about 3 minutes in that match literally, just pressing overB over and over.

as for lucario's upB im split on attacking out of it.
while it wasnt needed, im not gonna lie that it has opened up some very impressive combos, mindgames, and shocking moments. i cant stress how amazing it was to watch vex do a crazy amazing combo on stage, knock up his opponent, and upB around them (not even just directly at them) and land a finishing blow when no one saw it coming. it adds more depth for the character.

 

[Revven]

We need to have the meeting this week. How does everyone feel about a Wed. night? Or tomorrow? I really want to discuss some of this stuff after watching BtL.

 

[goodoldganon]

Tuesdays are Thursday are a no go since I work basically until raid time as 7 EST. I can do any other days EXCEPT Tues and Thurs.

 

[CT Chia]

raid time lolz

Tue or Wed would work for me

 

[shanus]

I would greatly prefer tuesday. This is my senior week aka wild partying all the time, so I'm gonna be busy for most of it, anyway.

 

[goodoldganon]

Unless we voice chat I wouldn't be able to participate on Tuesday. That's fine, just make sure someone is conservative back there.