Tier List Speculation

[KakuCP9]

I thought I made topic change some time ago. Was I not shameless enough or should I find a different topic?

 

[MagnesD3]

I can't believe it's been over 18 hours and you still don't realize that Waft and Solarbeam increase thoughtful interactions if they carry over a stock.

If literally every person in this thread disagrees with you and tells you why you're wrong, and you keep ignoring them and spouting "bad design" and "but muh charge B moves" and "there's no risk involved" then this isn't a discussion anymore. It's like playing Nerf wars with a kid who keeps saying "that doesn't count, I had a forcefield!"

Open your mind.

I could say the same about you view though... I really don't believe the carryover makes for more intelligent decision making at all and I've pointed out in previous posts why I think this way due to the risk involved when having a powerful move like that.

 

[robosteven]

Solarbeam takes an eternity to charge and typically involves actual interaction to get it working. If you get caught trying to raw charge it you have the risk of getting 0-to-deathed due to combo weight and tether-only recovery. It carries over stock because you deserve to keep it, dangit.

Waft on the other hand, you just kinda get it for playing for, what is it now, a minute? Two minutes?

I get the claims of Solarbeam being questionable because of healing and because of other attack moves charging it, but everything else is fine with me.

I think Waft needs to be reexamined though, for sheer fact that you just get it without effort.



willing to have opinion swayed regarding waft btw

 

[Jonyc128]

I don't think so, the effect is still light, they just added the lightning sound back to doc, same properties on both fsmashes just different sound effects.

Both @Bazkip and I bioth asked Sartron about it, and he said that they changed it back to electric I even tested it since I noticed a difference between Mario's and Doc's fsmash

 

[Zigludo]

I made a thing

Starting at 16%, it will go down to 11 then 6%, all at the sakurai angle.

so it does less damage than his current up-angled ftilt lol

 

[Narelex]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

EDIT's
Ganon should be end of B-
Snake should be lower
Zard and Squirtle should be higher

 

[FreeGamer]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

B- is also pretty much CP-niche.

 

[Narelex]

B- is also pretty much CP-niche.

This is true however they're not as stage reliant as C tier is hence the gap.

 

[Zigludo]

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

if you're going to put Ganondorf in C (I would put him a lot higher than 40th place) then you should put Boozer in like D or E or something lol Ganon is a lot better than Bowser.

specifically in terms of getting counterpicked, most rulesets tend to have two small stages and FD, so in a lot of relevant matchups a counterpicking Ganon can force the opponent to either play him on a small stage or get chaingrabbed 0-death on FD. why does nobody do this, I am not sure, Ganon has easy 0-death chaingrabs on like 10 different characters on FD and just nobody seems to practice it.

besides Ganondorf is not really that bad on big stages anyway. plenty of top Melee Ganon players CP space animals and Peach to DL64, his high weight and super long distance recovery (even longer in PM) helps him a lot

 

[Narelex]

if you're going to put Ganondorf in C (I would put him a lot higher than 40th place) then you should put Boozer in like D or E or something lol Ganon is a lot better than Bowser.

specifically in terms of getting counterpicked, most rulesets tend to have two small stages and FD, so in a lot of relevant matchups a counterpicking Ganon can force the opponent to either play him on a small stage or get chaingrabbed 0-death on FD. why does nobody do this, I am not sure, Ganon has easy 0-death chaingrabs on like 10 different characters on FD and just nobody seems to practice it.

besides Ganondorf is not really that bad on big stages anyway. plenty of top Melee Ganon players CP space animals and Peach to DL64, his high weight and super long distance recovery (even longer in PM) helps him a lot

DL64 has large blastzones but I meant "large stage" as in large amount of space like Norfair, Delfino's, YiB, Distant Planet etc. Trying to catch a quick character on a stage like that with ganon's slow speed is quite difficult. It does depend on your stagelist for sure.

I do agree Ganon is better then Bowser. I will likely move him up a tier on the next list. I'll post any edits on the original post. Once I get enough I'll make a new list with the suggested changes.

 

[Jonyc128]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

EDIT's
Ganon should be end of B-

Mario I feel is a bit too low, he has too solid of a MU spread to be 18/19th. Solid combo game, outstanding recovery, nice OoS options, but then again he doesn't really have results this patch to back up my claims

 

[Certix_]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

EDIT's
Ganon should be end of B-

Most of this list is good to me. I think that Wario should be in A- tier and zerosuit and pit should be above snake in B tier. I also don't think that link should be at the top of B tier, he doesn't seem as capable as those around him, though my perception of him may be off. A- Tier seems slightly off but I can't find why. A tier is fine, my opinion disagrees with it, but it is objectively fine. And yeah, Ganon is better than C-tier.
In conclusion solid list.

 

[Narelex]

Most of this list is good to me. I think that Wario should be in A- tier and zerosuit and pit should be above snake in B tier. I also don't think that link should be at the top of B tier, he doesn't seem as capable as those around him, though my perception of him may be off. A- Tier seems slightly off but I can't find why. A tier is fine, my opinion disagrees with it, but it is objectively fine. And yeah, Ganon is better than C-tier.
In conclusion solid list.

I really need to watch Gallo play. Pit is someone that I have wondered about for awhile. Thinking more on it yeah I think I'll put ZSS and Pit higher.

Link is pretty good, Hero of Time has shown he's a fairly solid character but he does still have some drawbacks hence B tier.

A- tier feels off to me too and I'm the one who made the list

 

[tasteless gentleman]

I made a thing

This is a proof of concept more than a stable build, as seen by me not making him stay put after moving, as well as going too far lol.

The punch deals less damage and knockback the further you travel. Starting at 16%, it will go down to 11 then 6%, all at the sakurai angle.

I love this but what's it do in the air? Also I'm sure this is fixable but where is bowsers hurt box during this move? Also, less punishable for the amount of damage please lol but this is a good idea, what move would you take away?
Edit
Never mind I just answered my own questions, for a forward smash its weak, can't be cancelled into an approach, rears back so still not an approach, it's a good zone tool though, but can't be used over his current forward smash. Now if it was a secondary move set for side b, kept the distance it traveled, and had more knock back on flub, worked in the air like luigis side b (sorta not entirely) and he had a fire ball or anti camp in neutral b, then I think it's a good improvement. Maybe more air mobilty, better grab range compared to his body, or just any combination of this stuff, I think bowser can be a solid B tier (he's still fat combo food)

 

[Scuba Steve]

specifically in terms of getting counterpicked, most rulesets tend to have two small stages and FD, so in a lot of relevant matchups a counterpicking Ganon can force the opponent to either play him on a small stage or get chaingrabbed 0-death on FD. why does nobody do this, I am not sure, Ganon has easy 0-death chaingrabs on like 10 different characters on FD and just nobody seems to practice it.

A chaingrab to death does not make for a good matchup with Ganon. That's why people rarely practice it. Many of the same characters that he can chaingrab on FD are also characters that **** on his **** in 10,000 different ways on that stage. I don't think I've ever seen a Melee Ganon intent on taking a Sheik to FD FOR THOSE SICK 0-DEATH CHAINGRABS because the stage is so terrible for Ganon in so many ways.

 

[Narelex]

A chaingrab to death does not make for a good matchup with Ganon. That's why people rarely practice it. Many of the same characters that he can chaingrab on FD are also characters that **** on his **** in 10,000 different ways on that stage. I don't think I've ever seen a Melee Ganon intent on taking a Sheik to FD FOR THOSE SICK 0-DEATH CHAINGRABS because the stage is so terrible for Ganon in so many ways.

If I thought punish game equalled placement on this list, it would look a lot different. I'm in the same train of thought as you.

 

[Spralwers]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

I think Wolf is more an A- character. Compared to his spacie rivals in A tier, his normals lack serious reach, priority, and start up (maybe except jab and ftilt, but those moves are more niche anyway), which means his approach options can be beat/stuffed by just about anything, and he can't effectively wall characters out. His laser has more start up and a lot more endlag, plus it's clankable so there's actual direct counterplay to it. He still has awesome movement, he has a shine with slightly better reach, he can convert hard off his normals if he lands them, and he has a good projectile, so that still leaves him in a really good spot.

Also can't see Lucario in A tier. A- is more fitting. He has slightly above average movement with stubby reach. He'll struggle in any MU where his opponent moves faster, can put up a wall of hitboxes, and/or has quick but strong range. This describes a nontrivial amount of characters (spacies, samus, link, marth/roy, zelda, diddy, captain falcon, DK, and prob a couple others) and for that reason I can't justify him as an A tier. I actually think he's B tier and that IPK is just way more diligent than most PM players, but I could settle for A-. I feel iffy about Rob being in A tier too but I don't have enough actual knowledge to argue it.

 

[Narelex]

I think Wolf is more an A- character. Compared to his spacie rivals in A tier, his normals lack serious reach, priority, and start up (maybe except jab and ftilt, but those moves are more niche anyway), which means his approach options can be beat/stuffed by just about anything, and he can't effectively wall characters out. His laser has more start up and a lot more endlag, plus it's clankable so there's actual direct counterplay to it. He still has awesome movement, he has a shine with slightly better reach, he can convert hard off his normals if he lands them, and he has a good projectile, so that still leaves him in a really good spot.

Also can't see Lucario in A tier. A- is more fitting. He has slightly above average movement with stubby reach. He'll struggle in any MU where his opponent moves faster, can put up a wall of hitboxes, and/or has quick but strong range. This describes a nontrivial amount of characters (spacies, samus, link, marth/roy, zelda, diddy, captain falcon, DK, and prob a couple others) and for that reason I can't justify him as an A tier. I actually think he's B tier and that IPK is just way more diligent than most PM players, but I could settle for A-. I feel iffy about Rob being in A tier too but I don't have enough actual knowledge to argue it.

ROB on the basis of having air dashes alone will always be a strong character, He has a ton of tools compared to some characters. Lucario is a pretty potent character and I don't see him below A- tier the sheer amount of creativity that is possible with him, not to mention ASC is an option most characters don't have.

Wolf has a more bait and punish playstyle compared to Fox/falco. Waveland lasers are a very potent movement/stage control option. I still think he's extremely strong. What bad MU's does he have?

 

[MagnesD3]

Solarbeam takes an eternity to charge and typically involves actual interaction to get it working. If you get caught trying to raw charge it you have the risk of getting 0-to-deathed due to combo weight and tether-only recovery. It carries over stock because you deserve to keep it, dangit.

Waft on the other hand, you just kinda get it for playing for, what is it now, a minute? Two minutes?

I get the claims of Solarbeam being questionable because of healing and because of other attack moves charging it, but everything else is fine with me.

I think Waft needs to be reexamined though, for sheer fact that you just get it without effort.


willing to have opinion swayed regarding waft btw

Just because it's hard to get doesn't meant you should be guarenteed to have at least once per game. I'd be fine if the amount to get it was decreased by 5% as long as they had to start over when they lost a stock.

 

[Keman]

then again he doesn't really have results this patch to back up my claims

Because @ Gallo69 won't travel. Although maybe he is doing us all a favor, so the PMDT doesn't nerf Mario. Because if Gallo started popping up all over the nation taking first in every tourney he showed up to (which lets face it, he would) they would probably nerf Mario.

 

[Doctor Aids]

Because @ Gallo69 won't travel. Although maybe he is doing us all a favor, so the PMDT doesn't nerf Mario. Because if Gallo started popping up all over the nation taking first in every tourney he showed up to (which lets face it, he would) they would probably nerf Mario.

Gallo went to blacklisted and didn't get first. He doesn't even get first at his own locals. He's an amazing player but I don't think he would take first in every tourney he went to when competing with other top PM players.

 

[robosteven]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Not perfect obviously, but this is the first list that I've seen that I actually had to look hard to find something I disagree with.

 

[nimigoha]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

EDIT's
Ganon should be end of B-
Snake should be lower
Zelda should be lower
Zard and Squirtle should be higher

This is probably the most solid list so far for a bunch of reasons.

• No S tier
• DK not in the very bottom tier
• Tier names with "-" indicate how close the characters are to each other, which is true
• No E or F tier
• Characters are very well placed in general

One thing I've heard about pretty much every character at one point in time is "I think they could be like top 20" and this list properly shows how this statement isn't actually ridiculous as so many characters are close.

 

[Rizner]

So how bout them tier lists? Take note of the letters used.

Bowser and Ganon are there because they tend to fall into the CP character niche, since they're far less effective on certain stages.Their Neutral is pretty bad and faster characters just completely eclipse them on any stage that's not tiny.

I'm still not completely sure where to place DK.

It's ordered I foresee a lot of moving occurring after we discuss. Shall we begin?

EDIT's
Ganon should be end of B-
Snake should be lower
Zelda should be lower
Zard and Squirtle should be higher

Personally I'd move link down a bit. I generally think of him as slightly worse than Zelda, because from what I've seen he loses a little harder to many of the characters Zelda loses to (even if he in turn beats her)

Also maybe peach up a tier?

And I'm crazy but I'd also drop gnw down some

 

[Gallo69]

Keman is my spokesperson. I don't even need to talk my own **** anymore <3

So the reason I don't think Mario is getting super impressive placings anymore is because he's actually balanced now. Knowing the MU helps with a lot of counter-play against 3.6 Mario (which is the way I think it should be).
- It's really easy to SDI dair now
- Just DI dtilt away at mid to high percents and he can't follow up
- No more weak hit of uair so just DI them down and away (but watch for the reverse hitbox)
- Floaties can get out of dthrow set ups at kill % with slight DI behind (but dthrow is still gahlike)

He's still probably A tier and can place well - as shown by Nashun, Cruz, and whenever my father Boss decides to pull him out. We all just need to get better if we want to win, nothing to do with the character.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I like Gallo's attitude.

Maybe I should just main Pit and find money to go to events, no one else is willing to main him

 

[Jay-R]

Bad Melee LOL

 

[Zigludo]

I don't think I've ever seen a Melee Ganon intent on taking a Sheik to FD FOR THOSE SICK 0-DEATH CHAINGRABS because the stage is so terrible for Ganon in so many ways.

You haven't seen it, because it's a bad idea in Melee, but PM isn't Melee.

The CG is much stronger in PM than in Melee because it leads into a guaranteed usmash (DI out), turnaround usmash (no DI / slight DI in) or up-angled fsmash (full DI in) thanks to having a much earlier IASA frame. All of these are KOs so it's a true 0-death chaingrab. Besides this, the chaingrab is much more lenient and easier to pull off in PM, although that's arguably a non-factor if you're assuming a reasonably well-practiced player; it's pretty easy to be consistent with the Ganon>Sheik cg, even in Melee. In Melee your only guaranteed finishers from the cg were uair and (pivot)bair, both of which could be lived with proper DI.

Furthermore in the most popular version of Melee, Sheik has an even stronger and easier chaingrab on Ganondorf, which no longer exists in PM. Another factor in the FD matchup is that Melee Ganondorf is significantly more reliant on using platforms in order to recover, and the float, sideB mixup, and buffed upB... the matchup is really not the same as it is in Melee other than "Sheik can lame out Ganon with needles."

I'm not saying "Ganon beats Sheik on FD", but I am saying "FD is one of the better stages for Ganon in the Sheik matchup, especially if Wario/Yoshi's Melee/GHZ has been banned or whatever". Everyone sleeps on the cg but they're wrong though lol, 100% guaranteed death from a grab exists in a lot of Ganon matchups on FD (Sheik, Lucas, Diddy, MK, Wolf, ZSS, probably a few I am forgetting.) but they're severly underrated because nobody puts in the practice.

0-d chaingrabs absolutely do make for a good matchup, just, again, every Ganon player is way too lazy and you can't practice CG against the awful PM bots because they never DI. just another example of PM metagame being underdeveloped

 

[nimigoha]

King Clubber says 4.0 will have bots that DI

Very exciting but I still want to see all the shenanigans that @FifthCPU is doing.

 

[Jonyc128]

Keman is my spokesperson. I don't even need to talk my own **** anymore <3

So the reason I don't think Mario is getting super impressive placings anymore is because he's actually balanced now. Knowing the MU helps with a lot of counter-play against 3.6 Mario (which is the way I think it should be).
- It's really easy to SDI dair now
- Just DI dtilt away at mid to high percents and he can't follow up
- No more weak hit of uair so just DI them down and away (but watch for the reverse hitbox)
- Floaties can get out of dthrow set ups at kill % with slight DI behind (but dthrow is still gahlike)

He's still probably A tier and can place well - as shown by Nashun, Cruz, and whenever my father Boss decides to pull him out. We all just need to get better if we want to win, nothing to do with the character.

Couldn't agree more with Gallo, though I'll add that DI slightly behind Mario is generally the best DI for Dthrow since you have to pivot jump if you want the fair

 

[Doctor Aids]

You haven't seen it, because it's a bad idea in Melee, but PM isn't Melee.

The CG is much stronger in PM than in Melee because it leads into a guaranteed usmash (DI out), turnaround usmash (no DI / slight DI in) or up-angled fsmash (full DI in) thanks to having a much earlier IASA frame. All of these are KOs so it's a true 0-death chaingrab. Besides this, the chaingrab is much more lenient and easier to pull off in PM, although that's arguably a non-factor if you're assuming a reasonably well-practiced player; it's pretty easy to be consistent with the Ganon>Sheik cg, even in Melee. In Melee your only guaranteed finishers from the cg were uair and (pivot)bair, both of which could be lived with proper DI.

Furthermore in the most popular version of Melee, Sheik has an even stronger and easier chaingrab on Ganondorf, which no longer exists in PM. Another factor in the FD matchup is that Melee Ganondorf is significantly more reliant on using platforms in order to recover, and the float, sideB mixup, and buffed upB... the matchup is really not the same as it is in Melee other than "Sheik can lame out Ganon with needles."

I'm not saying "Ganon beats Sheik on FD", but I am saying "FD is one of the better stages for Ganon in the Sheik matchup, especially if Wario/Yoshi's Melee/GHZ has been banned or whatever". Everyone sleeps on the cg but they're wrong though lol, 100% guaranteed death from a grab exists in a lot of Ganon matchups on FD (Sheik, Lucas, Diddy, MK, Wolf, ZSS, probably a few I am forgetting.) but they're severly underrated because nobody puts in the practice.

0-d chaingrabs absolutely do make for a good matchup, just, again, every Ganon player is way too lazy and you can't practice CG against the awful PM bots because they never DI. just another example of PM metagame being underdeveloped

This all sounds great in theory until you actually try to play Ganon on FD in that MU. It does not matter how hard you can chaingrab them if all they do is camp and crouch. Good luck grabbing a competent Sheik, all she has to do is needle camp and constantly spam crouch and dtilt. She could probably just crawl around the whole match lol. Also, you can't even grab sheik to punish her upb and you have nothing that sets up into grabs at reasonable percents. There are only a select few MU's where I would actually take someone to FD, and that's because of the neutral, not the punish game.

 

[Strong Badam]

I had a tier list all made in the tier list maker and then I tabbed away to do something else and it got eaten by my tab suspender. Sorry everyone, maybe next time.

 

[Narelex]

I had a tier list all made in the tier list maker and then I tabbed away to do something else and it got eaten by my tab suspender. Sorry everyone, maybe next time.

That's a shame I look forward to when your tier list doesn't get eaten.

I always like seeing high level players tier lists.

 

[KakuCP9]

I always like seeing smart high level players tier lists.

FFTY

I too would like to see Strong bad's thoughts on the meta.

 

[Strong Badam]

Something like this, I spent like 15 minutes on it:

I kept trying to make a bottom tier but it started to feel very forced real fast. There's just not a huge jump in viability where it would need to be for such a tier. A- could be B and B could be C, I guess.

I read "Wario is 19th" and feel that's underrating him, but I don't feel he's notably better than anyone above him. Guess that's just a well-balanced game? *shrug* Errybody in that tier is pretty capable of making a deep run in a tournament, especially given a favorable bracket match-up wise. We've seen it with Ness, Ike, Link G&W, and Snake at varying tournaments. We've even seen chars in the lower tier do that.

 

[Doctor Aids]

Something like this, I spent like 15 minutes on it:

I kept trying to make a bottom tier but it started to feel very forced real fast. There's just not a huge jump in viability where it would need to be for such a tier. A- could be B and B could be C, I guess.

I read "Wario is 19th" and feel that's underrating him, but I don't feel he's notably better than anyone above him. Guess that's just a well-balanced game? *shrug* Errybody in that tier is pretty capable of making a deep run in a tournament, especially given a favorable bracket match-up wise. We've seen it with Ness, Ike, Link G&W, and Snake at varying tournaments. We've even seen chars in the lower tier do that.

This is an interesting list, and I like alot of it, but if you don't mind I'd like to ask about a few characters' placement.

-Why is Peach so low?

-Why is Pikachu that low?

-Why is Ivy in A tier?

 

[Saproling]

I cannot fathom that list.

 

[Zigludo]

This all sounds great in theory until you actually try to play Ganon on FD in that MU. It does not matter how hard you can chaingrab them if all they do is camp and crouch. Good luck grabbing a competent Sheik, all she has to do is needle camp and constantly spam crouch and dtilt. She could probably just crawl around the whole match lol. Also, you can't even grab sheik to punish her upb and you have nothing that sets up into grabs at reasonable percents. There are only a select few MU's where I would actually take someone to FD, and that's because of the neutral, not the punish game.

I do counterpick Sheik to FD and I beat players significantly better than I am there on the back of the chaingrab

I'm aware of the assertion that a chaingrab isn't enough to make up for a disadvantage in neutral but my assertion is that in Ganondorf's case the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. it really is a guaranteed KO every time once you've practiced it's enough. do me a favor and keep telling everyone that FD is good for Sheik vs Ganon though, I enjoy frauding people out with dthrow

 

[Doctor Aids]

I do counterpick Sheik to FD and I beat players significantly better than I am there on the back of the chaingrab

I'm aware of the assertion that a chaingrab isn't enough to make up for a disadvantage in neutral but my assertion is that in Ganondorf's case the benefits outweigh the drawbacks. it really is a guaranteed KO every time once you've practiced it's enough. do me a favor and keep telling everyone that FD is good for Sheik vs Ganon though, I enjoy frauding people out with dthrow

If you're getting grabs in that MU, then you deserve to win. Sheik has a super easy time not getting grabbed. So like, power to you man if you're winning but really that stage is not advantageous for Ganon once both players reach a high enough level of play.

 

[Jonyc128]

Something like this, I spent like 15 minutes on it:

I kept trying to make a bottom tier but it started to feel very forced real fast. There's just not a huge jump in viability where it would need to be for such a tier. A- could be B and B could be C, I guess.

I read "Wario is 19th" and feel that's underrating him, but I don't feel he's notably better than anyone above him. Guess that's just a well-balanced game? *shrug* Errybody in that tier is pretty capable of making a deep run in a tournament, especially given a favorable bracket match-up wise. We've seen it with Ness, Ike, Link G&W, and Snake at varying tournaments. We've even seen chars in the lower tier do that.

Only things that I need clarification for regarding the list, are ZSS and Ivy's placements