Tier List Speculation

[CORY]

But i'm also the guy who considers light armor, medium armor, and heavy armor to all be subclasses of a general term called "super armor" which I know pisses some people off.

well, light, medium, heavy and superarmor are all four different types of armor, entirely.

 

[Downdraft]

This is my opinion on the tier list. Very vague order with their tiers.

I haven't tried Pit versus people yet, but I'm seeing him around Top 15 and in the bottom half. What's holding him back?

I think this is the best list I've seen. Maybe Wario in A tier and I think Bowser, Puff and DDD at least deserve their own tier.

Also I don't think anyone is so far ahead of the cast to be an S tier. In other words I think what is now S tier is more like A tier, and current A tier is like A- tier.

On an interesting note I could see any of the non D tier characters making top 3 at a major.

1. What is considered a major?
2. If a major is a stacked tournament with 50+ players, then I'd revise your statement to S and A tier. B tier characters may have a chance but they need more luck IMO while C-tier characters on this tier list just don't have the ability to take a big tournament by themselves.

Definitely agree on this point.

I don't think we should be trying to call for nerfs on characters with perceived strong attributes, because ultimately that's what makes a game fun.

PMDT should approach balance similar to how Icefrog does with Dota, keeping a characters strengths while making their weaknesses apparent, and if nerfs are required, do it with small incremental changes instead of heavy handed nerfs.

Don't you think it's a bit late to adopt that philosophy? The last 2 updates have seen drastic playstyle overhauls and the removal of strengths. Perceived strong attributes don't always make the game fun. 3.02 Zeldas that had a mastery of Din's found the formations and calculations fun, but few others did aside from Zelda mains. Din's was a strength, but now it is more of a liability and has switched purposes from being a strong defense to an average offense. I supposed Nayru's was considered strong too with its great versatility, but it was weakened drastically with 0.8x multipliers on aerial Nayru's, addition of a reverse hitbox that makes edgeguarding with the attack or following up trickier since she can be moving in the opposite direction the opponent is sent, removal of aerial intangibility that makes it much more punishable on startup while retaining its same weaknesses once the hitboxes end, removal of the Diamond Diving AT that allowed her to punish over aggression and return to the stage quicker, and the removal of the Love Jumping AT that allowed her to change stage position, escape combos, and recover. Interestingly enough, ROB is allowed to keep his boosts, which allow him to do most of what Zelda did with 3.02 Nayru's just as good if not better. Zelda's weaknesses are apparent, but I suppose some people just had or have a mental block about what to do versus her. Those players stick with her few winning matchups, don't choose the correct counterplay, don't bother researching the matchup, complain instead of improving their own game, etc. Regardless of whether or not a win was frustrating, I don't think players should complain about a character after winning to the extent that some people do when they play Zelda. You know how to beat the character and just won, what more do you need to ask for? I think Zelda would have more respect in the community if she was a Melee or Brawl high tier. PM is the only competitive Smash Bros. game where she actually sees much use in tournament play, and most people don't know how to react, but it can't just be unfamiliarity because Ganon and Link are in the same boat, but there are far less complaints about those two characters.

 

[The_NZA]

well, light, medium, heavy and superarmor are all four different types of armor, entirely.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're going to be the guy that corrects me when I accidentally yell "AMAZING SPIKE" when Kirby dairs someone at BlackListed, aren't you.

But honestly, who the **** cares. Its a game where a literal penguino hits a bird with metallic legs with his massive hammer. If we all know what we mean, then does it matter? When discussing neutral, I include things like Snake dropping nades and hiding in shield, DK's upb OOS, and Falco's dair -> shine. It all contributes to letting the character start a combo and go into true punish game. I can appreciate the point that some people feel this is stagger game, but I don't find it useful in evaluating character strengths to say "X character has a good Neutral game, but Y character has an impeccable stagger game, while Z characters Punish game puts him over the top"

 

[Shokio]

I haven't tried Pit versus people yet, but I'm seeing him around Top 15 and in the bottom half. What's holding him back?

1. What is considered a major?
2. If a major is a stacked tournament with 50+ players, then I'd revise your statement to S and A tier. B tier characters may have a chance but they need more luck IMO while C-tier characters on this tier list just don't have the ability to take a big tournament by themselves.

Don't you think it's a bit late to adopt that philosophy? The last 2 updates have seen drastic playstyle overhauls and the removal of strengths. Perceived strong attributes don't always make the game fun. 3.02 Zeldas that had a mastery of Din's found the formations and calculations fun, but few others did aside from Zelda mains. Din's was a strength, but now it is more of a liability and has switched purposes from being a strong defense to an average offense. I supposed Nayru's was considered strong too with its great versatility, but it was weakened drastically with 0.8x multipliers on aerial Nayru's, addition of a reverse hitbox that makes edgeguarding with the attack or following up trickier since she can be moving in the opposite direction the opponent is sent, removal of aerial intangibility that makes it much more punishable on startup while retaining its same weaknesses once the hitboxes end, removal of the Diamond Diving AT that allowed her to punish over aggression and return to the stage quicker, and the removal of the Love Jumping AT that allowed her to change stage position, escape combos, and recover. Interestingly enough, ROB is allowed to keep his boosts, which allow him to do most of what Zelda did with 3.02 Nayru's just as good if not better. Zelda's weaknesses are apparent, but I suppose some people just had or have a mental block about what to do versus her. Those players stick with her few winning matchups, don't choose the correct counterplay, don't bother researching the matchup, complain instead of improving their own game, etc. Regardless of whether or not a win was frustrating, I don't think players should complain about a character after winning to the extent that some people do when they play Zelda. You know how to beat the character and just won, what more do you need to ask for? I think Zelda would have more respect in the community if she was a Melee or Brawl high tier. PM is the only competitive Smash Bros. game where she actually sees much use in tournament play, and most people don't know how to react, but it can't just be unfamiliarity because Ganon and Link are in the same boat, but there are far less complaints about those two characters.

The way I see it, Pit just has to put in 5x as much as work as the high tiers for equal actual less reward. And I know that doesnt single-handedly define a character, he's good imo and really fun to play, it's just like, why gothrough all the accuracy to play him whenI can just gentleman to Knee somebody with Falcon?

 

[CORY]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're going to be the guy that corrects me when I accidentally yell "AMAZING SPIKE" when Kirby dairs someone at BlackListed, aren't you.

i might, depends on if you're consistently using incorrect terminology or not. it's just what i do.

 

[Boiko]

Not to call you out too hard on the Marth thing, but I've definitely been guilty of over rating characters that happen to crusherino bowser. You may or may not be doing the same.

Idk, maybe, but I doubt it. I have a background in melee, so that's where my Marth understanding comes from.

And I've actually only lost to one Marth in tournament, being Sora's, and it wasn't even that bad. I'm 1-1 in games with Emukiller's Marth. Yeah, the MU is buns, but I'm trying to consider Marth as a whole against the cast. I mean, really, who does he actually lose to?

 

[BS_Shane]

Donkey Kong

 

[The_NZA]

i might, depends on if you're consistently using incorrect terminology or not. it's just what i do.

Not going to lie, I don't mind it if I imagine its coming from a porcupine with a Heart around it.

Donkey Kong

Sometimes, I just picture this when you pop into these threads:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PA3wADBNfg

 

[The_NZA]

-deleted-

how do i delete things

 

[AceGamer]

Marth loses to D3 too, not terribly though

 

[Frost | Odds]

Idk, maybe, but I doubt it. I have a background in melee, so that's where my Marth understanding comes from.

And I've actually only lost to one Marth in tournament, being Sora's, and it wasn't even that bad. I'm 1-1 in games with Emukiller's Marth. Yeah, the MU is buns, but I'm trying to consider Marth as a whole against the cast. I mean, really, who does he actually lose to?

Off the top of my head,

Yoshi
Maybe zard
Fox
I actually suspect he loses to link
Rob
Roy
D3
Pikachu I've been told
Ganon imo
Likely Diddy but I'm not sure
Cf definitely
Falco probably - I think b reverse lasers change this matchup a LOT more than falcos nerfs from ntsc


I don't have a cast roster in front of me atm though. The trouble with Marth isn't his overall spread, it's the fact that the MUs where he wins, he tends to completely demolish them.

 

[NWRL]

Words.

It's never to late to change design philosophy, especially since we've reached a point where the top half of the cast is pretty well balanced and designed.

I just hate seeing the same cycle over and over from the same people: character gets top 5 in a major, character is now unfairly designed with way too many strengths, people come out of the woodworks to complain about said character -> character gets gutted next patch.

It's lame and I can see why people call the PM community a bunch of whiners, because we are. The ability to make balance changes has spoiled this community and instead of just nutting up and trying to find ways around a character, mental gymnastics are done to justify nerfs for a character.

 

[Boiko]

Off the top of my head,

Yoshi
Maybe zard
Fox
I actually suspect he loses to link
Rob
Roy
D3
Pikachu I've been told
Ganon imo
Likely Diddy but I'm not sure
Cf definitely
Falco probably - I think b reverse lasers change this matchup a LOT more than falcos nerfs from ntsc


I don't have a cast roster in front of me atm though. The trouble with Marth isn't his overall spread, it's the fact that the MUs where he wins, he tends to completely demolish them.

@SoraxAyu

Could provide some insight, I'm sure.

 

[The_NZA]

Off the top of my head,

Yoshi
Maybe zard
Fox
I actually suspect he loses to link
Rob
Roy
D3
Pikachu I've been told
Ganon imo
Likely Diddy but I'm not sure
Cf definitely
Falco probably - I think b reverse lasers change this matchup a LOT more than falcos nerfs from ntsc

He doesn't lose those matchups that badly though. At worst they are probably 55-45.

-Yoshi, i'd challenge due to the recovery changes.
-Zard I have NO idea
-Fox is only closer than it was in Melee, and I'd argue the ability to air dodge during IASA frames, as well as the recovery buffs he enjoys from the universality of ledgerolls and reverse upBs helps his case considerably.
-Link: this was basically only slightly unfavorable matchup by the consideration of Marth players during the tail end of 3.02. Now, with Link's much worse recovery, its way better for Marth. Marth can edge guard Link so incredibly well, and with projectile changes, his neutral isn't that much worse than Links. The main situations he has to worry about are Link's vertical uair juggles, but conversely, Link gets combo bodied by Marth as well. It flows both ways.
- Rob I have no idea
-Roy - this is also something I don't know that much about. I don't get to play with many Roy's. But i'm sure its closer than it was in 3.5.
- Pika - I have no idea why this would be true, not that i doubt you. I just can't theorycraft an explanation either way
- Ganon - I have to disagree. Marth wins in neutral game, the punish into gimp game (I can't imagine ganon escaping that dair), and has a more flexible recovery. I don't really see this.
- Diddy - its probably an even matchup. Not sure, but Sora showed us in 3.02 that he could kill Diddy (and any semi fast fallers) quite easily with 0-deaths off a single grab. The fact of the matter is, Marth has a fluid enough neutrla game to get that grab.
- CF - this is probably still in Falcon's favor, though i don't expect by much
- Falco - Idk, this one is also easier than it was in Melee. I think Ledge rolling being nerfed and Reverse angle dolphin slashes has given marth so many more stalling options to delay on ledge occupancy, that his recovery is actually much harder to stuff. I don't feel this is that far from a 50/50.

I personally think Wolf hasn't done enough to prove his spot on any of these lists. Marth though certainly has. But yeah, someone like Sora should probably comment.

Also, you forgot to mention DK.

 

[foxygrandpa]

This is my opinion on the tier list. Very vague order with their tiers.

I'd personally just cut out D tier and make it S-C. There aren't huge gaps between the actual letters imo, and as much as I don't like 3.6 it's admittedly pretty balanced.
Issues I have:
There's simply no way that falco isn't S tier. I understand that he's hurt by new floaty matchups and a different stage list, but just because laser's aren't an auto-win in neutral all the time doesn't mean he's not a ridiculous character. Him and captain falcon are S tier imo. Wario should be A too. MK is probably around fox-marth level too, but I don't want to start a debate around that.

I believe snake is better than you think. Like most good characters, he only needs about 1-2 interactions is neutral to take a full stock and has the means to do so. The reason people don't think that he's particularly great is because his combos are so aesthetically badass, and attribute the punish game to the player more so than the character.

Pikachu is crazy dude. A tier at least. He has a strong neutral, good gimp tools, strong combo game, and one of the best recoveries. Even when he doesn't want to exploit those, he can sit back with a 10 damage projectile. I think M2 is underrated too, and has a lot of unexplored neutral options, but I don't feel comfortable arguing about that entirely.

I agree with most of the rest of the list, except I would switch link and ness. I'm sorry, but ness's punish game is simply too good for him to bottom 10 in the game. He has his respective weaknesses that should be fixed (recovery especially is a really easy fix that should have happened a while ago) and I think he could benefit from a slightly faster dash speed but I don't think he's quite as bad as you're making him out to be. Worse than kirby? Really?

I don't understand why people are beginning to think link is so good all of a sudden. He has a couple of good matchups but a lot of really bad ones. I have a lot of experience against this character, and am totally under the impression that a lot of people are losing because of lack of experience. The character is still really exploitable. Just because there's a couple of good links out there doesn't mean he's good.

 

[tasteless gentleman]

It's never to late to change design philosophy, especially since we've reached a point where the top half of the cast is pretty well balanced and designed.

I just hate seeing the same cycle over and over from the same people: character gets top 5 in a major, character is now unfairly designed with way too many strengths, people come out of the woodworks to complain about said character -> character gets gutted next patch.

It's lame and I can see why people call the PM community a bunch of whiners, because we are. The ability to make balance changes has spoiled this community and instead of just nutting up and trying to find ways around a character, mental gymnastics are done to justify nerfs for a character.

I agree with this, the biggest gripe i have ever had was if i reflect diddy's bananas then they dont become mine... and the infinite hand off IC has against bowser. but that is literally all.

But lately i been complaining about patches and changes (dreading them now) because i use to main pit, then 3.5 came out. Then i switched to bowser, then 3.6 came out... like whats next?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

People think link is good because hero of time, and hero of time is the only good link pushing the character, so no one really knows how to deal with it.

 

[Hylian]

I don't think people realize that characters can be in things like lower-mid tier in this game and still win tournaments. The balance of this game is much closer than many competitive fighters.

 

[Shokio]

People think link is good because hero of time, and hero of time is the only good link pushing the character, so no one really knows how to deal with it.

On the flipside, you could say people only think Link is bad because all Link players are bad.

I went there.

 

[JOE!]

Zard I think beats FE as a whole

 

[Boiko]

I'd personally just cut out D tier and make it S-C. There aren't huge gaps between the actual letters imo, and as much as I don't like 3.6 it's admittedly pretty balanced.
Issues I have:
There's simply no way that falco isn't S tier. I understand that he's hurt by new floaty matchups and a different stage list, but just because laser's aren't an auto-win in neutral all the time doesn't mean he's not a ridiculous character. Him and captain falcon are S tier imo. Wario should be A too. MK is probably around fox-marth level too, but I don't want to start a debate around that.

I can see Wario being in the lower half of A if he's up there.
I do think that Falco is a very strong character, but I just feel that compared to the characters above him, he has a lot less going for him. THe thing about Falco is that he's pretty slow, so he relies on lasers to pin down your movement and then he can pressure you. Since lasers are nearly as big of a threat anymore, his slow speed is more exploitable. He's still not bad, but he just doesn't strike me on the same level as Fox or anyone above him. His kills are more contingent upon positioning than almost anyone above him. Just my opinion.

Falcon is great but has way too many weaknesses that characters above him can exploit. Of the characters above him, I think that he only beats three of them (Marth, Samus, ROB) and nothing is that bad.

I believe snake is better than you think. Like most good characters, he only needs about 1-2 interactions is neutral to take a full stock and has the means to do so. The reason people don't think that he's particularly great is because his combos are so aesthetically badass, and attribute the punish game to the player more so than the character.

Perhaps. I need to see Snake doing more before I believe it though. Not saying you're wrong, I just can't be that certain.

Pikachu is crazy dude. A tier at least. He has a strong neutral, good gimp tools, strong combo game, and one of the best recoveries. Even when he doesn't want to exploit those, he can sit back with a 10 damage projectile. I think M2 is underrated too, and has a lot of unexplored neutral options, but I don't feel comfortable arguing about that entirely.

Mewtwo needs more exploration. Frozen is putting in hella work, and I expect some seriously good things to start showing up. Pikachu I need to see more of also. Not just Axe outplaying his opponents.

I agree with most of the rest of the list, except I would switch link and ness. I'm sorry, but ness's punish game is simply too good for him to bottom 10 in the game. He has his respective weaknesses that should be fixed (recovery especially is a really easy fix that should have happened a while ago) and I think he could benefit from a slightly faster dash speed but I don't think he's quite as bad as you're making him out to be. Worse than kirby? Really?

Kirby isn't that bad. People sleep. I think Kirby is a pretty good counter pick character, but isn't independently viable. However, he does have uses that make him somewhat relevant. Ness' punish game is strong but I just spent like three pages explaining why it's bad in the long run.

I don't understand why people are beginning to think link is so good all of a sudden. He has a couple of good matchups but a lot of really bad ones. I have a lot of experience against this character, and am totally under the impression that a lot of people are losing because of lack of experience. The character is still really exploitable. Just because there's a couple of good links out there doesn't mean he's good.

Idk. I think that Link is pretty good. He does have exploitable weaknesses for sure. But that's why I have him in C tier. Also, he has results backing him up now, something a lot of other characters can't say.

We'll see how it unfolds.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I don't think people realize that characters can be in things like lower-mid tier in this game and still win tournaments. The balance of this game is much closer than many competitive fighters.

In principle and for the majority of the cast, absolutely. There are, however, characters who simply cannot compete at a national level.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Lol shokio with the shots, well a lot of them aren't that great, I've seen a couple that are decent, but it's pretty much hero of time. He's a good player, but really link isn't that great relative to the cast, and is hella carried by hero of time. I'll say this, he's lucky he didn't meet me in bracket, I'm not the best but I don't lose to links. I have way too much experience in that matchup to lose.

 

[Hylian]

In principle and for the majority of the cast, absolutely. There are, however, characters who simply cannot compete at a national level.

Notice I said lower mid, not bottom lol.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Notice I said lower mid, not bottom lol.

I figured that was your meaning, just wanted to clarify!

I forget, you in dfw? Wanna play if so?

 

[Hylian]

I figured that was your meaning, just wanted to clarify!

I forget, you in dfw? Wanna play if so?

Nah. I lived in texas most of my life which is why people think I live there/I know the players so well there, but I moved to missouri 4-5 years ago.

 

[AceGamer]

Zard I think beats FE as a whole

Only D3 has that honor lol, Zard goes even with all them tho to my knowledge. He might beat Roy since he can outrange the middle of Roy's sword which is the more important part and can combo him well

 

[Shokio]

I figured that was your meaning, just wanted to clarify!

I forget, you in dfw? Wanna play if so?

Bruh, you're still here? xD Coming to IaB tomorrow I assume?

Only the characters in E tier could be remotely considered "unviable" imo. Bowser may be at the end of D as opposed to the front of E. D tier characters aren't bad at all and are actually great pocket characters to have. C tier has the most characters because the majority of chars in 3.6 are mid-tier and very close together.

 

[BS_Shane]

Off the top of my head,

Yoshi
Maybe zard
Fox
I actually suspect he loses to link
Rob
Roy
D3
Pikachu I've been told
Ganon imo
Likely Diddy but I'm not sure
Cf definitely
Falco probably - I think b reverse lasers change this matchup a LOT more than falcos nerfs from ntsc


I don't have a cast roster in front of me atm though. The trouble with Marth isn't his overall spread, it's the fact that the MUs where he wins, he tends to completely demolish them.

I see your points, but for the same reason you say Bowser gets bodied by so many characters, I think if Marth plays the matchups correctly he shouldn't lose most of these. Here's my opinions

Yoshi- Marth beats yoshi for sure. He may have a hard time killing Yoshi if he doesn't get a spike or nice tipper f smash, but it doesn't matter because if the marth knows what he's doing he will just keep winning neutral/keep edgeguarding til yoshi finally dies. Marth's disjoint is just insanely good and safe against Yoshi. doesn't have the range and/or speed to deal with Marth's neutral assuming 2 equally skilled players are playing each other.

Maybe Zard- I think Marth's ability to keep opponent's above him play a huge role in making this matchup good for Marth. I know this because I play DK who also has that same strength, and this + edgeguarding are all you really need to beat Zard. Marth does both of those very well. Also, he has a great shield grab which could be used as a last resort if Marth can't stay below Zard and he tries doing a fast fall aerial to the side to get to the ground. Just run up + shield grab, or simply have a good DD grab game to punish his landing, and it's hella hard for Zard to land safely.

Fox- This was about even in melee and Marth is essentially buffed in PM due to his less lag on many aerials and stuff, and obviously fox is nerfed, so i would say this is even at worst for Marth.

Link- This could be a secret losing matchup Marth has because it was Link's ONE good high tier matchup in melee, and Link is obviously buffed from melee. Aerial mobility is a key trait against Link and Marth is mainly a grounded character. Therefore, he has to resort to amazing powershield game unless the Link simply gets outplayed and Marth consistently finds his way in.

Rob- Marth beats ROB cause grabs and edgeguards lol. Marth has a very easy time grabbing ROB because of his maneuverability, and it's very easy to get ROB offstage from a grab. I would say DK has an easier time dodging dairs than ROB does. That's how free it is for Marth to edgeguard ROB...

Roy- Can't really say much hear, don't have enough experience. However, One thing I do know is that if Roy is above Marth he's pretty much dead because being a semi fast faller he has to DI offstage in order to not get combo'd forever, and from there all he really has is his invincible ledgedash lol

D3 - Ever see Sora v.s. Ripple? Sora had like zero DDD experience compared to Ripple who plays Dart's Marth all the time. Seemed like if Sora had more experience he would have had an easy time winning neutral over and over again due to his DD grab game, and easily transitioning into dair edgeguards. Also, Ripple is really good anyway so it's not like Sora was super outplaying Ripple or anything lol. Sora actually took a set off Ripple despite the matchup inexperience. It looked pretty stressful for Ripple. Sora played super safe and did a lot of work when he got in. Keep in mind he did all this while figuring out Ripple as well as DDD. I would like to see how well Sora would do in that matchup if he had Dart's MU experience

Pikachu - I might agree with this actually lol. Idk how it is in melee, but it's prob safe to say that if Pika does decent vs Marth in melee then it's even better for him in PM

Ganon- I agree with this too. Marth is one of Ganon's best high tier matchups in melee (arguably even) and Ganon is way better in PM than melee. Especially his movement, which is something that Marth easily abused in Melee.

Diddy- I think Marth wins because I've watched Sora body Diddy's back in 3.02 Haha i have a biased perspective admittedly, but still. I think Ground mobility is huge v.s. Diddy because Marth can shield a banana, then quickly get in while running under the banana as it's in the air (assuming Diddy throws the banana from long range). Jumping is a big commitment v.s. Diddy (not gonna explain why) so ground mobility is huge. Also, Marth easily converts grabs into edgeguards Diddy, and he's is hands down one of the best characters in the game at edgeguarding Diddy.

Falcon - Pretty much even in melee, pretty much even in PM as well. If anything, it's better for Marth because he can wall Falcon out a little better with less laggy aerial pressure than in melee.

Falco - I actually agree with b-reverse lasers being huge in this matchup. It makes his neutral much less predictable. Falco may win slightly like 55-45. Prob even at Worst for Falco

Btw, can't forget Sheik. Sheik does pretty damn good v.s. Marth

 

[CELTiiC]

Zard I think beats FE as a whole

You truly feel he beats Marth? From my experience I found it to be an even match-up. I could see possibly a 55-45 advantage for Zard at best, but nothing more than that. I think he does very well against Roy and Ike though.

 

[The_NZA]

I agree with most of the rest of the list, except I would switch link and ness. I'm sorry, but ness's punish game is simply too good for him to bottom 10 in the game.

A. Link's punish game is basically just as good as Ness's with the exception that it doesn't lose its potency against floaties. His attacks hit like a truck for pretty massive damage and he does not struggle at all at stacking up 50-70% off a single grab on much of the cast

B. He has a LOT of viable combo starters in neutral. Boomerangs, 2nd hit of fair, bombs, zair, jab> jab > dsmash/grab/dtilt

C. He has a neutral game

People have criminally underrated Link all the time here, just because, as Shokio rightfully point out, there aren't any "complete" link players out there. Hero of Time truly is a complete player using a decent character that other players failed to push to the limit because they became obsessed with laming with boomerangs and not learning how to play smash.

 

[Narelex]

Hey my characters not considered mediocre by the public anymore. Cool.

I'm going to talk to SB and the other MK's more since LTC3 is finished. But so far we've only found that MK has about 3ish disadvantageous MU's this patch.

His spread is excellent and anyone that places him below A tier is likely misinformed.

 

[Shokio]

I've been saying it for a while now to some of the DFW guys: There are legitimately some userbases that are all just bad. Most of the more vocal fanbases who complain about their character are all just bad at their character. Of course you'd think your character is bad if you and everyone else who plays him/her/it can't even get 17th consistently in 40-man bracket.

The Link and Ivy mains come to mind. But Hero of Time, JZ, and Machiavelli are all great examples of people who have mastered their characters. Some Oli dudes come to mind too, though the recovery is legitimately bad and is brain-dead to edge-guard against. Other than that Oli is amazing though.

Bowser mains are an exception.

 

[CELTiiC]

Hey my characters not considered mediocre by the public anymore. Cool.

I'm going to talk to SB and other MK's more since LTC3 finished. But so far we've only found that MK has about 3ish disadvantageous MU's this patch.

His spread is excellent and anyone that places him below A tier is likely misinformed.

Who do you think he loses to in this patch? I'm curious, because I feel he does very well with spacies, but I may be wrong.

 

[4tlas]

Bruh, you're still here? xD Coming to IaB tomorrow I assume?

Only the characters in E tier could be remotely considered "unviable" imo. Bowser may be at the end of D as opposed to the front of E. D tier characters aren't bad at all and are actually great pocket characters to have. C tier has the most characters because the majority of chars in 3.6 are mid-tier and very close together.

Normally I advocate for Zelda being very very low in the cast, but 2nd worst? Bottom 5 maybe (your E tier), bottom 10 definitely (your D+E tiers), but 2nd worst? I'd say Jiggs and Bowser are definitely worse than her, and I can see arguments for ICs, DK, Ganon, and Dedede. Maybe even Ness, Yoshi, and Charizard. Would you care to elaborate on why Zelda is so low?

 

[DMG]

I dunno if those mid characters would truly be capable of winning a national if the patch were static for ~4 years and everyone had better MU knowledge. There are still a plethora of characters where accurate MU knowledge or experience involving those characters, is limited to select regions spread out across America. With patch changes + main shifts based on those patches (how many Link players we had 3.02 vs now as example), I don't think the characters are figured out enough to confidently say balance is actually that good. MU balance (for mid chars this would tend to be evenish MU's with some people above them at the very least) =/= National winning balance imo


Then again, nationals for some players or characters may hinge on what specific MU's or other players they meet up with, although that's a byproduct of most huge tourneys. Out of 250+ people, you end up playing maybe 10 people in bracket? Those 10, including the order you have to play them, could drastically change results despite player skill level being theoretically the same in either scenario

 

[Chevy]

Bowser's command grab, Squirtle's down throw, Olimar's blue back throw, Lucario's side b.

And then you consider that other throws may not kill but they set up for better positioning considering their angles. Like ROB's side throws, Lucas's back throw, Diddy's side throws, Wario's side throws, Sheik's forward throw, etc.

Ness' "kill throw" is objectively worse because it doesn't kill and it allows the opponent to drift back to stage from a very high angle. The angle needs to be changed, not the power, IMO.

So Bowser and Oli-blue kill just barely, and Lucario side b aura charged kills. Squirtle and Zelda do not. Just does not at all seem like something worth complaining about, it kills floaties and offers you positional advantage, it doesn't need to give you ez gimps too.

 

[Narelex]

Who do you think he loses to in this patch? I'm curious, because I feel he does very well with spacies, but I may be wrong.

Atm I feel Fox, Roy and Samus are his hardest MU's. (There's debate in our community over Marth's placement hence 3ish)

But even those aren't very far from even. He does much better against Spacies then most of the cast, He has tools like CC Ftilt that will come out before Fox's shine after Fox Nairs for example.

He also can completely decimate Falcon, Something that few other characters can say.

 

[Shokio]

Normally I advocate for Zelda being very very low in the cast, but 2nd worst? Bottom 5 maybe (your E tier), bottom 10 definitely (your D+E tiers), but 2nd worst? I'd say Jiggs and Bowser are definitely worse than her, and I can see arguments for ICs, DK, Ganon, and Dedede. Maybe even Ness, Yoshi, and Charizard. Would you care to elaborate on why Zelda is so low?

Honestly, my placing for her mostly hinges on the fact that I think the character is cancer and one of the worst-designed ones in Smash history lol. I've always hated Zelda because she doesn't teach people how to play the game, she teaches people how to play Zelda. Just mash Fair or Bair twice in a single short-hop if you want a kill. Press B if you made a mistake and don't want to get punished. etc. I know I shouldn't necessarily based viability off of that though, I'm just kinda like, "F*** Zelda so I'll put her in bottom tier."

Note: I also got lazier with the ordering as I went along.

 

[4tlas]

Honestly, my placing for her mostly hinges on the fact that I think the character is cancer and one of the worst-designed ones in Smash history lol. I've always hated Zelda because she doesn't teach people how to play the game, she teaches people how to play Zelda. Just mash Fair or Bair twice in a single short-hop if you want a kill. Press B if you made a mistake and don't want to get punished. etc. I know I shouldn't necessarily based viability off of that though, I'm just kinda like, "F*** Zelda so I'll put her in bottom tier."

Note: I also got lazier with the ordering as I went along.

I, uh, ok. I don't really have anything to say to that because there's no point in me trying to make you 'like' the character and it doesn't seem like we'd have much to debate in terms of her actual viability either.