Tier List Speculation

[.alizarin]

even besides precision, there's no such thing as a braindead character lol
if you don't have to think while playing to get results your opponent doesn't know the matchup or is just bad in general
a ganon has to be far from braindead to land a grab

there's a balance between difficulty to initiate vs. difficulty to execute

the group [that gets braindead cg'd] is fairly large to me, which i don't think there's any justification for. tone down that group, and i think that'd be fine.

i'd like to draw most of your attention to my first quote, but if you skip over it like you did when i initially posted:

braindead execution != braindead initiation
braindead character != ganon

thanks!

 

[trash?]

also if you think ganon has braindead execution you're playing ganon wrong

it's like how ppl think bowser's braindead, like buddy have you seen the inputs players like odds do

 

[DrinkingFood]

I see no issue with characters having tools that are difficult to initiate and easy to execute (execution being the goal of the game, ie getting rid of a stock being perfect execution of the gameplay goal). That's basic risk:reward ratio. Saying there could be some 100:0 ration there implies it's on the extreme ends, approaching impossible to initiate, but executes itself. So of course that's not the case. That would be something like, landing Ike's fully charged neutral b, which executes a stock.

 

[Bazkip]

I made a big post about Ganon's down throw a while back, and @GP&B chimed in with a great idea
Actually lemme just quote it

Yeah Ganon's a big, strong mother****er, having giant meaty hitboxes fits. He'd be pretty *** if he didn't have good hitboxes. Dude's got so many weaknesses, let the man have a few positives.

I do agree that *** grab on dash grab is silly and should probably be removed, but it's a dash grab it's not like it gets much use anyways.

But speaking of grabs, that's one area where he doesn't have that reach (standing grab).
I cannot describe how incredibly frustrating it is to miss a grab because someone directly in front of you did something that moves them slightly forwards. Or to whiff when someone is directly at your feet but in an animation where they're somewhat lowered. I'm not talking about Jigglypuff/Kirby/Snake/Sheik kinda of crouching, it can be someone simply landing in front of you. Ganon cannot shieldgrab Mario's dash attach when every other character in the game can, and I imagine there's probably a few other attacks that are like that. I don't see how people getting away with unsafe things directly in front of one character and no one else is remotely acceptable from a design standpoint.

Spoiler: Here's some examples

And to show that it's not just me being scrubby, here's it happening to Kage

Sure there's upB OOS, but since that's slower and way more punishable, it's not something that can be used very often.

I often hear the reason for it being so bad is due to dthrow being too godly. This may be true, but I'd like to say two things in answer to that.

The first is that there's plenty of character out there who get so much mileage from their throws and who don't struggle to get the grab in the first place. Either through having a good grab range and/or good mobility and/or the ability to pressure/corner their opponent to open them up for the grab.

And second, if the dthrow is actually just too good, nerf it. I'm not going to deny that it's absurd, it chaingrabs a large portion of the cast, some to ludicrous percents, and allows to free follow up on pretty much everyone. I'd much rather trade how ridiculous dthrow is for the ability to actually get the grab.

I'm not asking for a great grab range, heck make it below average since even a nerfed dthrow will probably still be good, as long as it's not verging on being near useless I'd be happy.

Increase KBG on DThrow, counterbalance the BKB to average out the range at which the throw will toss someone early on, then move the grab boxes down.

Bam, less functionally stupid DThrow with less overwhelming CG's but still insanely good followup potential.

This would be pretty much perfect.

I do still think he should have a bit more horizontal reach though, I know there's characters with less than him but most of them have good mobility. So while they also can't use grab as an effective defensive option they can still use it offensively, while Ganon just gets neither. They're also all characters who simply have short arms, so it makes sense, whereas Ganon doesn't fit into that.

But yeah the vertical grab whiffing and dthrow being generally stupid are bigger problems than the horizontal reach, so I could live without it.

I still stand by this. Dthrow can definitely be made less dumb and grab be more reasonable to get without breaking the character.

 

[DMG]

I dunno what he was referring to specifically for the ratios, but I used it with the idea of "How much control you have : how much control they have". Risk/reward doesn't have to be correlated or bound together. 100:0 ratio for my post referred to "basically you can't avoid what's coming next if they execute properly", which is what top players can turn some situations into that otherwise give some level of control to the defender (control that ultimately doesn't matter vs good execution)

 

[DrinkingFood]

I assumed by initiating it he meant how frequently the chances comes up to successfully start the punishment, and by execution he meant the end-result of it. Which would be risk-reward since it's a ratio of how often you can use something and expect success, and how much success it brings.
If by execution he means how hard it is... like multi shining difficulty vs doing a smash attack, that kind of execution? That's not typically a valid criteria for judging a things effectiveness/usefulness since in a competitive environment people push themselves past reasonable limits to execute even physically harmful things. So I'm assuming he didn't mean that and probably meant risk:reward

 

[.alizarin]

also if you think ganon has braindead execution you're playing ganon wrong

it's like how ppl think bowser's braindead, like buddy have you seen the inputs players like odds do

i didn't realize that i had to state everything so explicitly

one more time, with bold

ganon's dthrow cg on certain characters that fall into the ff/weight category that allow for chaingrabs is braindead, the execution window is huge, and the characters that fall into this category is unnecessarily large. i did not say that ganon was easy on execution as a whole

thanks!

Spoiler: possibly incoherent

in regards to the ease of execution, i didn't literally mean execution (like, hand dexterity wise), but i did mean the things involving the window for reaction and whatnot. i think when the time to react is that large, there is an issue regarding human limitation. obviously the difficulty of execution is not a valid way to balance something, but if we look at, say, tech chases in theory, the first one to get a knockdown while using a character with a decent dash speed and grab means the stock is gone. nobody seriously balances like this, though, since it's not within human ability to be able to pull something like that off. 100% tech chases aren't possible by human beings, so we don't take that into account, and therefore strategies regarding tech chases aren't "guaranteed" when they theoretically could be. when ganon gets such a huge window to cg, the execution becomes trivial and the reward is too large.

edit: i re-read what i just typed up there in the spoiler and i don't even have any idea what i'm saying here. i still maintain that ganon's dthrow should be toned down for that certain ff/weight class or w/e, though. i might come back sometime after i get some sleep to see if i can type any explanation that's coherent.

my john of choice is that it's 4:29am and i've been writing a paper that's due in 2 hours

 

[JOE!]

I found a perfect summary of tether recoveries in 3.5:

Spoiler

 

[jtm94]

But their counter argument is that Ganon has to jump through extra hoops in order to secure the grab in the first place compared to characters that have better run speeds, movement, dash dances, and grab boxes. This can make it more acceptable that his throw > whatever exists because it's not something he can truly initiate on a whim against any competent player.

I personally don't like it because it puts fear into me that I cannot be touched by him or else I will 1. Die or 2. be put up to a % where next time I will die. The execution of the regrab/follow ups is pretty lax that it's not something that should really be dropped. In a similar instance Wolf can 0 death you when he touches you, but in that combo there are more meaningful means of interaction via DI, SDI, teching, etc compared to.... throw.. DI behind... wait... turn around regrab... throw.... repeat. I would rather give him some kind of more meaningful tools to make him a better character overall, but at that point we lose the flavor of Ganon and just kind of get another character entirely. If the downthrow/bad neutral/hard hits/slow speed is what gives him individuality I would much rather preserve that.

Homogenizing the cast can be necessary in extreme scenarios such as Olimar's UpB failing to snap to a ledge for no controllable reason or if there was a character that is so unplayable due to awful characteristics such as laggy moves/slow speed or conversely godly speed/overall moveset. None of these are the case here and I think every character is capable of doing their own thing in a different way. I do think that armor is a bit over the top and anything beyond medium is excessive, but even that can be too much depending on what a move does. Bowser is a character I would like to see homogenized in a way that helps him while making him overall less frustrating to face.

TL:DR
Who's to say that the difficulty of netting a grab justifies insane follow ups. Link has something similar, just without regrabs. This is also looking past characters like Yoshi that have strange low bkb/kbg on throws and can CG some of the cast or get follow ups on even the floatiest of floaties.

 

[Boiko]

@ JOE! I always felt that Ness had an edge on Zard due to his aerial mobility with DJC and his ability to combo him pretty hard. Not drastic, but I'd call it -1 for ZarD.

 

[Rizner]

also if you think ganon has braindead execution you're playing ganon wrong

it's like how ppl think bowser's braindead, like buddy have you seen the inputs players like odds do

I'm not saying you're wrong, but those two aren't correlated. If you have to put in a crazy input for your only option, the game is still not thinking, just doing.

 

[JOE!]

@ JOE! I always felt that Ness had an edge on Zard due to his aerial mobility with DJC and his ability to combo him pretty hard. Not drastic, but I'd call it -1 for ZarD.

I originally thought this as well, but I'm leaning way more toward even with all the Ness I play against in NE like Reyn Time and The NZA. The MU used to give me trouble but as of late I have yet to drop a set to our awesome Ness mains in over 3 months

Way I see it they punish the hell out of each other, and where Zard has range and speed, Ness has PK Fire and grab set-ups

 

[Foo]

Ganon's dthrow is fine, I don't think it's wrong for characters to have tools that clearly outshine others, especially when initiating them successfully is so difficult. Ganon's ability to land grabs is pretty bad, he can't tech chase well for grabs, can't combo into grabs really except with specific moves on specific weight groups (like aerial side-b on floaties, low percent dair on mid fallers, mid percent dair on FFers). And usually when he can combo into it isn't the same percent it CGs, so really it just serves to add extra damage before setting up for a finisher. Getting grabbed at the percent his dthrow CGs is really difficult unless the ganon is way better than you, in which case you have really have no room to complain about dthrow when you are probably making dozens of other mistakes

My problem isn't that ganon Dthrow clearly outshine's other throws, it's that I think it's better than a throw should be. I mean, it doesn't make ganon OP or anything, so aruging against that isn't really the point. The point isn't that dthrow makes ganon too good or can't be countered, the point is that getting chaingrabbed for free is really really lame, and it should be changed imo. One of the big points in 2.5 was removing all of he free chain grabs. I am completely fine with it having free follow ups. He's not like falcon and really has to work for grabs, however, getting bounced off the grounds like 20 times in a row and regrabbed each time before he kills or almost kills you with bair is just really lame gameplay.

I would much rather trade that cheap throw for a more dynamic float game and better ledge throws in order to make him unique and strong in healthier ways.

 

[Gawain the Knight]

Pretty much this honestly.

In a game with 40+ characters, the fact that as a whole only a handful are mentioned as overly good/bad with the rest being in a big ol' heap of "just right" is a damn fine job by the PMDT.


On a side note seeing as this is a wider group, I may as well get y'all opinions:

Spoiler

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​

This is the current Charizard MU spread after a few light discussions. Where do you guys feel your characters stand vs the lizard?

Ike gets juggled to hell with no good escape option. The Mu is probably even cause they can both juggle eachother and both have high speed potential.

 

[MLGF]

I got plenty of Ike:Zard

The MU is super volatile,they both have extremely good punishes on each other and both really have to respect each other's space. Is say Ike May win slightly, but they kinda beat the snot out of each other.

 

[Downdraft]

the problem with 3.0 wasnt that the characters were really good, it's that they were really good, for free.

3.5 characters are still really good. you just have to understand your options better instead of throwing out your characters free move.

I think we can all agree, other than mewtwo, pit, and sonic. 3.02 was more fun than 3.5

I think most characters are absolutely fine where they are. It's only really the bottom 5 and the top 5 that need small buffs/nerfs respectively.

I strongly disagree with these 3 posts.

Narpas: Zelda's teledashing, Din's setups, Love Jump, Diamond Dive, and auto-cancelled Nayru's were not free.

Farore's Wind and Din's Fire were punishable at close range. The only way Zelda could get 3 Din's off is if the opponents gave her too much space or made a large mistake(s) that lead to a punish that would give Zelda enough time to setup 3.

Love Jumping ate your double jump, which put Zelda in very vulnerable position. The startup on Farore's was punishable and depending on how high above a platform or the stage she was, her options could be very predictable. D-air's sweetspot was only active on frame 15 and didn't trade with a lot of character U-airs or or U-specials. Basically, she was susceptible to being juggled again without the option of escaping with Nayru's if her opponent was smart.

Diamond Diving was also punishable and the diagonal versions weren't explored enough. The top and bottom of Nayru's did not (and still don't) have hitboxes to protect Zelda, so if she dove vertically onto an opponent an U-smash could beat it. Also, if she didn't land in the autocancel window but before the attack ends, then she'd experience lag. The move either reset the situation or gave the advantage back to the opponent like love jumping unless the opponent did not prepare for the possibility, in which case she might have flipped the advantage. With a little research and thought, Zelda was easily defeated, but apparently many people despise researching a character or having to think much in a match. They don't like approaching characters in a different fashion because they'd like to use the same gameplan or two on the whole cast. That's a personal problem, and not any justification for 3.02 Zelda getting drastically changed and significantly nerfed in 3.5.

She is not really good in 3.5. Most of her matchups with Melee top tiers and really good 3.5 characters have gotten harder due to increased limitations, i.e. lesser options thanks to nerfs. People might find Zelda players in better attitudes if she'd received good compensation for her offensive and defensive nerfs. 3.5 Zelda is incomplete. She lost a lot and didn't get much in return to help her maintain her strength. At best, 3.5 may have made her more fun to play against, although we still encounter countless complainers.

Ripple: I'm sure many Zelda, Meta Knight, Link, and Zero Suit mains would disagree along with other characters that got core parts of their gameplay unnecessarily nerfed or removed without adequate compensation.

Star: Your idea wouldn't improve the game substantially. All those characters in the middle that struggle with the top and high tiers would still have their 3.5 problems. All those characters that got more basic (a.k.a. boring) to play in 3.5 would still be boring.

3.5 was a design patch right? One thing I believe it accomplished was making the game more fun for opponents of certain characters at the expense of those characters' mains. Unfortunately, characters like Fox, Roy, Marth, and Sheik just got slaps on the wrist, which couldn't have been an oversight. The favoritism and alienation must end if the game is to appeal to all people that are dedicated to Project M. I don't blame many of the people that put PM on the back burner, dropped the game, or switched characters after 3.5 because it really didn't do them right. Free or not, some of the changes in 3.5 strongly discourage one from playing a certain character when other characters can just do the job better, and what percentage of players wants to stick with their main after they dropped 2 or more tiers in 3.5?

 

[mimgrim]

I think you are misreading/misinterpreting what Ripple said. :L

 

[Downdraft]

I think you are misreading/misinterpreting what Ripple said. :L

I think so too. His post seems backwards, so I guess he was being sarcastic. Regardless, he left off other characters.

 

[mimgrim]

No.

He is saying that aside from the characters M2, Pit, and Sonic that 3.02 was a more fun version then 3.5.

I.E. that M2, Pit, and Sonic WERE NOT fun in 3.02 but that the rest of the cast was.

 

[Downdraft]

No.

He is saying that aside from the characters M2, Pit, and Sonic that 3.02 was a more fun version then 3.5.

I.E. that M2, Pit, and Sonic WERE NOT fun in 3.02 but that the rest of the cast was.

Yes, but fun how? Fun to play against or fun to play? I'm guessing he means they were more fun for the game.

 

[Player -0]

Link can still CG members of the cast unless they have super fast Nair's like Luigi or Samus to a certain percent AFAIK.

 

[mimgrim]

Yes, but fun how? Fun to play against or fun to play? I'm guessing he means they were more fun for the game.

Now you are just missing the point.

I'm not a mind reader. I can't know what he meant by "fun".

I was simply pointing out that you said you strongly disagreed with his post and that you were probably just misinterpreting/misreading what his post actually was (he thinks, for the most part, that 3.02 is more fun then 3.5 aside from the 3 characters he stated).

Gotta step-up your reading comprehension yo.

 

[Downdraft]

Now you are just missing the point.

I'm not a mind reader. I can't know what he meant by "fun".

I was simply pointing out that you said you strongly disagreed with his post and that you were probably just misinterpreting/misreading what his post actually was (he thinks, for the most part, that 3.02 is more fun then 3.5 aside from the 3 characters he stated).

Gotta step-up your reading comprehension yo.

I read the post too hastily, but his post still doesn't make sense. Mewtwo, Pit, and Sonic were all much stronger in 3.02, so how are they more fun for their mains now? Ugh, it's too late to edit it out of my post, but it really was a post that I shouldn't have quoted. Thanks for trying to clarify things though.

 

[CORY]

But their counter argument is that Ganon has to jump through extra hoops in order to secure the grab in the first place compared to characters that have better run speeds, movement, dash dances, and grab boxes. This can make it more acceptable that his throw > whatever exists because it's not something he can truly initiate on a whim against any competent player.

I personally don't like it because it puts fear into me that I cannot be touched by him or else I will 1. Die or 2. be put up to a % where next time I will die. The execution of the regrab/follow ups is pretty lax that it's not something that should really be dropped. In a similar instance Wolf can 0 death you when he touches you, but in that combo there are more meaningful means of interaction via DI, SDI, teching, etc compared to.... throw.. DI behind... wait... turn around regrab... throw.... repeat. I would rather give him some kind of more meaningful tools to make him a better character overall, but at that point we lose the flavor of Ganon and just kind of get another character entirely. If the downthrow/bad neutral/hard hits/slow speed is what gives him individuality I would much rather preserve that.

Homogenizing the cast can be necessary in extreme scenarios such as Olimar's UpB failing to snap to a ledge for no controllable reason or if there was a character that is so unplayable due to awful characteristics such as laggy moves/slow speed or conversely godly speed/overall moveset. None of these are the case here and I think every character is capable of doing their own thing in a different way. I do think that armor is a bit over the top and anything beyond medium is excessive, but even that can be too much depending on what a move does. Bowser is a character I would like to see homogenized in a way that helps him while making him overall less frustrating to face.

TL:DR
Who's to say that the difficulty of netting a grab justifies insane follow ups. Link has something similar, just without regrabs. This is also looking past characters like Yoshi that have strange low bkb/kbg on throws and can CG some of the cast or get follow ups on even the floatiest of floaties.

edit: to clarify, i quoted you ,jtm, because i agreed with your main ideas in the post : p
to expand on this (my thoughts), as well as who ever it was that asked what they think should be done to ganon, changes wise:

it'd be "easy" to fix ganon by speeding him up, overall, then lowering his damage, overall. then, adjust grab ranges/heights and make dthrow send further horizontal, since he could now actually chase people down out of it, but conversely making the super easy followups less likely.

but suddenly he wouldn't feel like the ganon people have come to enjoy playing. the risk/reward to his dthrow followups is the setup for it. (i agree that the chaingrabs are pretty dumb, but talking with strongbad, it's not easy to make it still useful for ganon, but not able to chain throw as hard as it does without making the animation/release points look really janky and/or jarring).

i think dmg had pretty good thoughts, overall, on the matter. and he does play a pretty mean ganon, but he mains falcon, so that's what he's known for : p

and whoever it was talking about buffing his fthrow, it's already pretty much a strictly better peach fthrow, with similar power/growth, but a lower angle. it's also nonreactable for di, so if you're chainthrowing someone with dthrow and they're going for the ledge to get out of it, you can suddenly mix up with fthrow and get them in a really bad position (in a non chaingrab world, the situation could be replicated by just setting up the situation out of the grab, but as stated, ganon isn't able to easily set up grabs).

as for ganon changes: i really wouldn't do much to him. nair is getting changed, in what way we don't know. bear in mind: it's +3 on shield. you can make it up to around -3 or -4 and it would still be considered pretty safe, due his 3 frame jab; it could even be slightly slower, -4 or 5 even, due to range (he's got some legs on him, damn). to do this, they could just push the ac window back to make it so you would need to time it better (you can currently ac as soon as the hitbox comes out, so push that window back a few frames, done) or just make it so you have to lcancel it, but make the landing lag better by a frame (i think it's -5 right now? dno't remember off the top of my head, tbh...).

other than that, i would like to see his throw/grab game reworked slightly, but i'd mostly want him to have a lower grab box. i'm not particularly bothered by characters with riskier grabs (tethers) having good throws and followups from them. in that vein, i'm not bothered so much by characters who can't land grabs easily due to range/movement speed/lack of projectiles to force shielding/etc... (basically, their kit doesn't help set up grabs easily) having good followups, either. if it's legitimately harder to land the initial grab, then the followups should be more potent. if you have an easy time landing the grab (through sheer speed or good grab range or the ability to force a situation to do the grab), then the throws should be more position and strict di mixup based.

honestly, a lot of the changes i would want are more making characters fit molds better. fast characters shouldn't have fast and quick, powerful smashes (or finishers in general). if you're made to win neutral more often, you should have to win it a lot more to get your kills, or be forced to get good reads to set up gimps. like, if fox had shiek's usmash (technically, a very powerful smash, but limited by its startup and hitbox positioning) the annoyance over his kit would be much less. he would have to set up for it much more, not being able to just straight combo into it out of waveshine or whatever else he wants.

(really big vague example, but that's the idea). basically, take a bit of a page from smash4's book and make the slower characters, with larger frames, able to kill much earlier, and the quicker characters, with smaller frames, take longer or have to either take a bigger risk or set up much harder to get early kills.

once that line gets marked and set much better, fatties start to have a better place in the metagame, just naturally. then fine tuning can happen. i'm fine with ganon having a subpar neutral, because he needs to be weak there to balance out the fact that he has aerial smashes and can kill off of bad di at, like, 70 (as in they think you're going for uair and so combo di it, but then eat a fair. it can happen and it makes you feel like a real man). but, when you have a character that can force you to approach, bait out options, combo super well, approach on his own really well with mixed up options, gimp well, and kill just as well? suddenly it gets harder to justify playing slow fatties when their job is taken by a character without their weaknesses.

 

[MLGF]

I refuse to believe I'm the only guy who plays MK and finds him more fun in 3.0. He's exactly the problem that was 3.0, sure the thing he had was cool, but I could do it in every MU and never have to change my gameplan or interact uniquely, I could do down b -> dair in so many scenarios to avoid getting punished.

I mean, he may need a buff of two now, but I'm far less brain dead now then I used to be. I dunno that's way more fun from an interaction standard at least.

 

[Downdraft]

I refuse to believe I'm the only guy who plays MK and finds him more fun in 3.0. He's exactly the problem that was 3.0, sure the thing he had was cool, but I could do it in every MU and never have to change my gameplan or interact uniquely, I could do down b -> fair in so many scenarios to avoid getting punished.

I mean, he may need a buff of two now, but I'm far less brain dead now then I used to be. I dunno that's way more fun from an interaction standard at least.

Rather than making "free" rewards expensive, many were just destroyed or removed.

 

[MLGF]

Still the better alternative then keeping them.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Still the better alternative then keeping them.

A game with no good options. I think we called that one Brawl and everyone threw a fit

 

[MLGF]

Implying non brain dead and useless moves have any correlation.

 

[Kaeldiar]

Implying non brain dead and useless moves have any correlation.

I would rather play a game where everyone is broken than a game where no one is broken. All the Melee top tiers are broken. That's what makes them good, and that's what makes the game fun. Fox and Falco's nearly everything, Marth's disjoint, Sheik's chaingrabs and easy combo ability, Peach's float, Puff's Rest...broken can be good. Remove the top 8-10 characters from Melee and NO ONE WOULD PLAY IT. It would be more "balanced" but it would be boring.

 

[Downdraft]

I would rather play a game where everyone is broken than a game where no one is broken. All the Melee top tiers are broken. That's what makes them good, and that's what makes the game fun. Fox and Falco's nearly everything, Marth's disjoint, Sheik's chaingrabs and easy combo ability, Peach's float, Puff's Rest...broken can be good. Remove the top 8-10 characters from Melee and NO ONE WOULD PLAY IT. It would be more "balanced" but it would be boring.

or worse yet giving the spot light to characters that have had their turn. Legend of Zelda characters have never been at the top of the official games. Link and Zelda get good in unintended ways, so how is that addressed? They are nerfed hard to give the spot back to characters like Fox, Sheik, and Marth that have been very good in other official games. Why should we have to play Brawl- to enjoy powerful, balanced incarnations of our characters or switch mains just to remain viable?

 

[Binary Clone]

or worse yet giving the spot light to characters that have had their turn. Legend of Zelda characters have never been at the top of the official games.

Fox, Sheik, and Marth that have been very good in other official games.

Hmmmmm....



That said, nobody "deserves" to be top tier or anything. Nobody has a right to be better, there is no "taking turns" in the top tier. The idea strikes me as silly. We should be pushing for balance. The top tier is just an inevitable result of the imperfect balance inherent in a cast that isn't completely normalized. The top tiers of PM lining up with many of the top tiers in Melee is just a byproduct of so much stuff from Melee being in PM, where those tools are still very powerful, granting them a top position even in the new meta where they are more equalized.

 

[CORY]

ah yeah, someone mentioned earlier about giving ganon's float earlier iasa frames to attack out of. that's something i could totally get behind. you have to wait 14 frames, currently, for it. taking that down to around 9 or 10 could be interesting and not overbearging.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Peach's float isn't broken, the game state and her moveset is what makes her as good as she is.

 

[Rizner]

Hmmmmm....



That said, nobody "deserves" to be top tier or anything. Nobody has a right to be better, there is no "taking turns" in the top tier. The idea strikes me as silly. We should be pushing for balance. The top tier is just an inevitable result of the imperfect balance inherent in a cast that isn't completely normalized. The top tiers of PM lining up with many of the top tiers in Melee is just a byproduct of so much stuff from Melee being in PM, where those tools are still very powerful, granting them a top position even in the new meta where they are more equalized.

The byproduct is caused from melee strong options being allowed while new options are toned down if seen on par with melee options because there isn't as much time put in to learn how to deal with said options.

 

[Nausicaa]

Is Ganon so slow that it needs changing?
Is Ganon's grab so busted that it does?
Answer = Nope
Stahp talking about it.
With Ganon's slow speed, how can he line up grabs?
^Useful discussion, that's relevant, and will lead to more answers.

 

[PlateProp]

Link and Zelda are both good. Stop asking for ****ing pm minus, that's Lunchable's stick

 

[Downdraft]

Hmmmmm....



That said, nobody "deserves" to be top tier or anything. Nobody has a right to be better, there is no "taking turns" in the top tier. The idea strikes me as silly. We should be pushing for balance. The top tier is just an inevitable result of the imperfect balance inherent in a cast that isn't completely normalized. The top tiers of PM lining up with many of the top tiers in Melee is just a byproduct of so much stuff from Melee being in PM, where those tools are still very powerful, granting them a top position even in the new meta where they are more equalized.

I never mentioned anything about rotations. My point was that characters that have been good or great in Melee, Brawl, or Smash 4 have been allowed to remain that way while characters that aren't have their futures in doubt. Why can't everyone be as good as Project M Fox for instance? His 3.02 contention was "dealt with" to where he's now at the top, which is silly. I have no problem with top tiers when most of the cast is at or near that level, which 3.5 actually took efforts to prevent. The wrong character is being balanced around.

Link and Zelda are both good. Stop asking for ****ing pm minus, that's Lunchable's stick

First, where are all the arguments that Zelda is bad?
Second, I doubt many will agree with Link being good.
Third, no one's asking for PM Minus. Rather than swear, how about you post evidence that both characters are in a good spot or achieve high level success with them yourself? Without any citations or explanations, your claim has little merit IMO.

 

[Jaedrik]

I would rather have broken fun, tbh.
Fun is not a direct function of balance either.
It is, however, a direct function of game mechanics.

 

[Soft Serve]

@ JOE! I think diddy beats zard this patch, at least 60/40. For very similar reasons as to why I think diddy beats marth.

In neutral, diddy just has faster moves up close, and controls more space horizontally. Being able to whiff punish everything and punish all things OoS with glide tosses means so much in grounded MUs. If zard is taking to the air a lot, he doesn't have the air mobility/safe aerials to threaten in the same way wario/peach/jiggs can make diddy's life hell. Even without a banana out I think diddy fights zard very well with just bairs and nairs and grabs. Without the banana out its probably slightly zard favor, but overall I think diddy has a significant edge in neutral.

Punish game wise they both destroy each other, but a combination of 3.5 recovery nerfs and air hit bananas means gimping zard recovery off stage is very doable for diddy this patch. If diddy gets grabbed he's boned though.