Smash 3DS There's no reward for skill in this game

[Quillion]

When you're trying to practice your approaches and combos, all the opponent has to do is press R to win (roll and airdodge).

There's no skill at all to evasion and defense since it all comes down to one button.

 

[Blade Knight]

Yes there is, and no it doesn't. And even if it did, reads are a very basic part of any fighting game. If your opponent is spamming evasive options, punish them for it, because they are very punishable by the entire cast. There are plenty of better approaching and comboing options than what you're doing, because if you were doing actual combos, they couldn't mash air dodge to escape or at worst you'd anticipate it.

 

[TTTTTsd]

So what kind of reaction is the OP fishing for in this thread I wonder?

 

[Raijinken]

Yeah, if they're escaping, you're messing up. Also, if it's obvious that they're going to mash evade, then time your string to intercept the end of their endlag. If you learn the escapes and when they're obviously going to happen, you can extend your attack strings further, and keep racking the damage or taking enemies offstage. It's quite easy, especially since most players are very predictable.

And if there was no reward for skill, then there would literally be no distinction between pro players and casual players.

One does not blame the road when the car doesn't turn. That's the driver's fault.

 

[ChronoPenguin]

you should have skill first.

 

[Quillion]

Punishing dodges only lets you deal chip damage.

Also, people are assuming that unskilled players are just rolling everywhere. What if I'm up against a player who's alternating between dodging and attacking?

 

[TTTTTsd]

If they don't follow a pattern then you're fighting somebody really smart(provided they're making good decisions and not flowcharting) and the fact that you're disrespecting that is pretty sad =P

 

[Quillion]

If they don't follow a pattern then you're fighting somebody really smart(provided they're making good decisions and not flowcharting) and the fact that you're disrespecting that is pretty sad =P

You poseurs, can't you understand that there's nothing fun about constantly alternating dodging and attacking, especially when defense is down to "press R to win" while attacking demands that you have a split-second timing to punish defense?

 

[TTTTTsd]

What's a poseur? Is that french? You should probably play other fighting games if you think this is bad before you try and drop some sick nasty insults when you can't punish a basic mechanic in a game that's been out for about 2-3 months.

 

[Quillion]

What's a poseur? Is that french? You should probably play other fighting games if you think this is bad before you try and drop some sick nasty insults when you can't punish a basic mechanic in a game that's been out for about 2-3 months.

I know you can punish it, but all you can do is chip damage. Did you ignore that?

And if you don't know what a poseur (or less properly spelled "poser") is, here!

 

[TTTTTsd]

You're killing me, I'm gonna eject from this thread. You complain about rolls and airdodging and now you bring up chip damage? I can't even tell what you're talking about but none of it sounds logical, well-thought out, educated, or proper. I've said all I have to say on this matter. In the wise words of another poster here

you should have skill first.

 

[Dsull]

Its equally skillful to dodge an incoming attack as it is to land it. If theyre dodging your attacks, youre either too obvious, slow, or using the wrong moves to begin with.

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Depends on your character, but if the dash attack is as useful as a Swiss Army Knife without the Knife, then you could dash>shorthop>nair. Or another aerial that works. I find this helps a lot if I'm Sheik or Captain.

 

[link2702]

*facepalm*

It'd be a waste of time to bother with the OP.

so here's a pic of a kitten hiding in a pringles can instead.

 

[Smearglangelo]

*facepalm*

It'd be a waste of time to bother with the OP.

so here's a pic of a kitten hiding in a pringles can instead.

Oh my gosh, that is the most adorable picture including a Pringles can I have ever seen!

 

[KingTeo]

I'm 100% certain that you're a troll fishing for reactions because let's face it: No one can be this delusional. BUTTTTTTTTTT under the assumption that you're serious...

Punishing dodges only lets you deal chip damage.

Also, people are assuming that unskilled players are just rolling everywhere. What if I'm up against a player who's alternating between dodging and attacking?

There is no such thing as chip damage. A hit is a hit and deals full damage as long as it isn't blocked(obviously sweet spots and sour spots are a different thing entirely).

If you're up against a player who's successfully alternating between dodging and attack, that's called the other player having more skill than you. What do you actually think skill is?

403

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

When you're trying to practice your approaches and combos, all the opponent has to do is press R to win (roll and airdodge).

There's no skill at all to evasion and defense since it all comes down to one button.

You should do stand up.

 

[wingedarcher7]

Players who constantly dodge get predictable. Just figure out what they do while you play, plan ahead, and attack like that.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think the one problem that we're forgetting is that some 3DS owners have faulty L and R buttons. As such, they have to change which button will be used for shielding.

Anyway, dodging can become predictable if you see it a lot. You just need to know which attacks are the best choices for countering such maneuvers.

 

[Roukiske]

My personal opinion on the matter.

Melee: Skill somewhat equivalent to smarts
Smash 4: Smarts greater than skill

Look, there's less tech skill in this game (there's still some there don't get me wrong), but you have to play this game very smart to be good. You can't just run in and nair someone's shield because you can't do something like jump or shine before you can get shield grabbed anymore. You overcommit an unspaced nair, you're gonna get punished. Anyone can spam fsmash to ftilt on Lil Mac, but you will eat dairs from smart players.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Contrary to your opening post, dodging doesn't mean you win, unless you are a bad player that doesn't understand how to use the mechanics of the game, and the habits of your opponent to your advantage. As someone else said, continuous dodging becomes predictable, and if you were smart enough to adapt and realize something wasn't working, then you would learn to time your attacks so your opponent's dodging meaningless. Damage is damage. Make sure your attacks connect while also making sure your opponent's attacks do not. It's a basic principle.

 

[Darklink401]

Air dodging 2 easy 2 punish

No seriously.

 

[Quillion]

When I said chip damage, I meant that all you can do is like 8% at a time since dash attacks are rather weak.

If you're playing at least somewhat competently (see For Glory), you should be able to just roll away and only take a little bit of damage at a time.

 

[Darklink401]

When I said chip damage, I meant that all you can do is like 8% at a time since dash attacks are rather weak.

If you're playing at least somewhat competently (see For Glory), you should be able to just roll away and only take a little bit of damage at a time.

Until your opponent begins punishing your rolls all the time.

Keep in mind 8x10 is 80%

At 80% any decent attack will send you off the stage. GL rolling there.

 

[_Magus_]

Perfect example: I was playing a Japanese player this afternoon, and all he would do was roll behind me and d smash.
So, I f smashed behind me as Ganon when I'd discovered the pattern.


No more Japanese player. XD

 

[Darklink401]

Perfect example: I was playing a Japanese player this afternoon, and all he would do was roll behind me and d smash.
So, I f smashed behind me as Ganon when I'd discovered the pattern.


No more Japanese player. XD

Go Maggy go

 

[Quillion]

Until your opponent begins punishing your rolls all the time.

Keep in mind 8x10 is 80%

At 80% any decent attack will send you off the stage. GL rolling there.

But you can pretty much roll out the way of any "decent attack" thanks to how quick and safe rolling is.

Perfect example: I was playing a Japanese player this afternoon, and all he would do was roll behind me and d smash.
So, I f smashed behind me as Ganon when I'd discovered the pattern.


No more Japanese player. XD

He wasn't a skilled player; play against someone who is mixing dodge spamming and attacking and maybe it will matter.

 

[_Magus_]

Go Maggy go

DL, didn't see you there. How's it going, buddy? :D

But you can pretty much roll out the way of any "decent attack" thanks to how quick and safe rolling is.



He wasn't a skilled player; play against someone who is mixing dodge spamming and attacking and maybe it will matter.

Against Ganon, all that matters is your spacing and your teching. Ever been chainchoked?

EDIT: Whoops, double post. Sorry.

DOUBLE EDIT: Had a few afterthoughts: 1) I thought we were talking about unskilled players here? 2) The Japanese player I speak of mixed up fireballs, nair approaches, run up grabs, and rolling. He didn't just roll the whole time.

 

[AngeloHollow]

But you can pretty much roll out the way of any "decent attack" thanks to how quick and safe rolling is.



He wasn't a skilled player; play against someone who is mixing dodge spamming and attacking and maybe it will matter.

It doesn't take skill to be able to dodge endlessly back and forth. It takes skill to do something about that.

 

[Quillion]

It doesn't take skill to be able to dodge endlessly back and forth. It takes skill to do something about that.

That's the problem! Defensive actions were supposed to be a "noob option" in Melee, where casual players can use it safely while serious players can punish it and find other ways to defend. Everyone won: casual players can play, and serious players can play.

With Smash 4, there's no more distinction with that. The "noob options" are effective, making serious fights not fun when all you're doing is pressing R and taking little insignificant punishes here and there.

 

[stancosmos]

When you're trying to practice your approaches and combos, all the opponent has to do is press R to win (roll and airdodge).

There's no skill at all to evasion and defense since it all comes down to one button.

Timing takes skill, and so does correctly assuming the opponents next move. You need to get out of the mindset of a traditional fighting game. The absence of combos only makes the game more competitive and relies less on button memorization. Combos in smash bros have always been harder to pull off for a few reasons. Firstly because if the opponent can see you coming a mile away, it's easy to evade. And secondly having different percentages makes it difficult to have a reliable combo that works every time. There's more skills in a fighting game than remembering combos.

 

[AngeloHollow]

That's the problem! Defensive actions were supposed to be a "noob option" in Melee, where casual players can use it safely while serious players can punish it and find other ways to defend. Everyone won: casual players can play, and serious players can play.

With Smash 4, there's no more distinction with that. The "noob options" are effective, making serious fights not fun when all you're doing is pressing R and taking little insignificant punishes here and there.

How many matches have you logged against people locally and online? And how is there no distinction between casual and competitive players? If you've actually watched competitive matches from tournaments, you'll find that they actually do not dodge very often at all.

 

[Quillion]

The absence of combos only makes the game more competitive.

Would any real competitive player say that?

How many matches have you logged against people locally and online? And how is there no distinction between casual and competitive players? If you've actually watched competitive matches from tournaments, you'll find that they actually do not dodge very often at all.

That's because they haven't really gotten the hang of the engine yet. Things are still being figured out, but I assure you, the air dodge borrowed from Brawl as well as OP rolling will ensure that there's no reward for skill whatsoever.

 

[AngeloHollow]

That's because they haven't really gotten the hang of the engine yet. Things are still being figured out, but I assure you, the air dodge borrowed from Brawl as well as OP rolling will ensure that there's no reward for skill whatsoever.

That's false, they know the game better than others and understand that dodging isn't as effective as people like you think it is.

 

[PokemonyeWest]

This is scrub mentality. If you're losing to rolls and can't adapt your game to beat that then you deserve loss after loss.

"no reward for skill" ok so by that merit, you're losing to skill-less players. What does that say about your play?

 

[Quillion]

This is scrub mentality. If you're losing to rolls and can't adapt your game to beat that then you deserve loss after loss.

"no reward for skill" ok so by that merit, you're losing to skill-less players. What does that say about your play?

Because skill shouldn't be "use one button to avoid everything" like defense is in Smash 4. It needs to be a mix of unorthodox use of special moves, a little rolling, a little air dodge, jumping, crawling, everything else... but each little option has a specific use for a specific situation.

Pressing R (and rolling and airdodging) to win, isn't skill, it's an overpowered noob option.

 

[AngeloHollow]

Because skill shouldn't be "use one button to avoid everything" like defense is in Smash 4. It needs to be a mix of unorthodox use of special moves, a little rolling, a little air dodge, jumping, crawling, everything else... but each little option has a specific use for a specific situation.

Pressing R (and rolling and airdodging) to win, isn't skill, it's an overpowered noob option.

The game isn't press one button to win, that's what everybody here has been telling you.

 

[Quillion]

The game isn't press one button to win, that's what everybody here has been telling you.

Defense is all one button (L or R).

Defense is rewarded over offense.

Therefore, one button wins.

 

[Pazzo.]

My honest reaction to the thread title.

 

[hyperglitter]

This argument that shields are invincible/you can only deal "chip damage" in certain situations is ridiculous. Defensive options are better in this iteration of Smash but it's still infinitely easy to punish someone who only spams roll/airdodge. If they rollspam, read the roll and/or grab when they shieldspam and setup for more damage. If they spam airdodge, wait for the airdodge to end (people are very predictable about when they airdodge for the most part) and hit them, it leaves them open.

It'd also be cool if you answered how many matches you've played so far because you're speaking definitively about things in this game that simply aren't true.