"The Zone" by HugS; Weekly Falcon Zone Discussion Week 4 - Wario

[Iwan]

I doubt it, I brought up the point-blank zone right after Iwan's post and it was just being repeated. OoS Dolphin Slash is good though, that's something to be careful of when in jab range. Let's see if Iwan has something to add or wants to move on, I guess.

I'm starting to second guess whether being right in front of marth is a good zone or a neutral zone. If you're in jab range, their dancing blade is really good :/. Probably just as good as jab....-_-.....

In fact, I was seeing more success mixing up jab sometimes, while the other times I was "in front" of marth, I'd just jump through his shield, and bair on the other side.

It threw him off some I suppose :/

 

[t3h n00b]

Dancing blade is slower than jab though. Do you know what will happen if Falcon spams A and Marth spams side+B when they're both in range? ^^notrhetorical

 

[Iwan]

Dancing blade is slower than jab though. Do you know what will happen if Falcon spams A and Marth spams side+B when they're both in range? ^^notrhetorical

Good point. I guess I just suck.....
REAL hard....
against marth. haha.

I need to work on that match up...I'll always start with a huge lead and lose it. Seriously? I'd do better against metaknight than against marth :|

I have to do some stuff tonight for AiB guys; I'll update this tomorrow since I'm off ....who should we discuss next?

 

[t3h n00b]

I agree, and MK dies early Dancing blade is still really fast, I'm pretty sure jab outspeeds it by only one frame. But it's mostly used at tipper range for whatever reason. Marth does have options up close though like his tilts, so jab range may not be great, but imo it's a lot better than at the tip of Marth's jab range.

 

[Player-3]

jab is faster than DB by..

ONE FRAME

 

[t3h n00b]

I'm pretty sure jab outspeeds it by only one frame

jab is faster than DB by..

ONE FRAME

Now that's consistency. But does anyone know what will happen if they keep using those moves? Like are Ike and Snake's jabs frame 3 too, or are they just so strong that they beat out Falcon's faster jab?

 

[Player-3]

Now that's consistency. But does anyone know what will happen if they keep using those moves? Like are Ike and Snake's jabs frame 3 too, or are they just so strong that they beat out Falcon's faster jab?

Jab is frame 3

DB is frame 4


and what do you mean?

move decay doesnt effect speed

 

[t3h n00b]

I know about the frame data. And I guess I was wondering which wins in priority, or does jab reach soon enough before DB to make that irrelevant? Like, when Falcon holds jab and Snake holds jab, Falcon gets hit because Snake's jab is broken. That kind of thing.

 

[Player-3]

I know about the frame data. And I guess I was wondering which wins in priority, or does jab reach soon enough before DB to make that irrelevant? Like, when Falcon holds jab and Snake holds jab, Falcon gets hit because Snake's jab is broken. That kind of thing.

priority in the snake case

DB can outrange our jab and make it irelevent, but up close our jab comes out faster than all of marths options except DS

 

[t3h n00b]

Ok, so Snake's jab is frame 3 then? I couldn't find frame data. But I was wondering if negligible (as in 1) frame differences would allow similarly quick moves to clash, in which case DB would win. Never mind though.

 

[masterdrenin]

im really good against marths for a falcon (my favourite smash buddy is a marth main)...

the zone is basically half the stage away from them or below them
it's just bait and punish, side-b helps a lot too for me i chain it into uair-uair-utilt
bair is very helpful too

basically approach only from behind or when the marth is lagging
don't let them fair u or take advantage, hold your ground

 

[LuLLo]

To respond to Iwan's question, I'd say we discuss Wario.

 

[talkingbeatles]

To respond to Iwan's question, I'd say we discuss Wario.

Seconded...

 

[Iwan]

Updated to start discussing WARIO :D

I don't know this match up at all.

You guys throw out opinions first xD. haha

 

[Lionman]

Grab release & Knee

 

[talkingbeatles]

I know this match up fairly well. My little brother uses Wario a lot, and it's a terrible match up for Falcon.
I want to say that up close is a bad zone for Falcon, because Wario's fsmash comes out fast and hits very strong. I think it also has invincibility frames.

Above him is bad as well. Wario's uair is a kill move.

 

[LuLLo]

Yes, it has invincibilty frames in the beginning, hence we get ***** by this attack pretty much every time.
But this is about zones, so here goes:
Wario hasn't got projectiles (other than his stupid wheels) so we don't have to worry to be out of his close combat range. We can wait there and run around to find an opening (which is HARD on Wario). Above him is a bad zone, his u-air (correction: all his aerials) beat our D-air (and if you will, Falcon Kick). All of his aerials come out fast, so stay below. I don't think we have any good zones against Wario, except (to counter what Talkingbeatles said) up close. In my experience Wario's have a hard time when in their shield or pressured by jabs, so I think that zone goes to Falcon, BUT when not controlled correctly, it could turn over to Wario's good zone in the blink of an eye. The other good/neutral zone for us is of course underneath him, where our wonderfull aerials shine brightest. But Wario also has good aerials, so it's just a guessing game for both.

 

[talkingbeatles]

Yeah, I realize that nearly all point blank against characters will be not a bad zone for Falcon, but I'd argue for up close being neutral rather then good.
His fsmash has crap for range, so he'll only use it way up close. Also, his jab game is pretty good, yes? I think it is. Also, the Wario I play will frequently up b if I get in close for jabs too often. It has good priority and pulls you up with it, and also comes out very fast.
I don't feel as comfortable up close with Wario as I do against other characters.

 

[t3h n00b]

Utilt is great against Wario. I think it outranges all of his moves. I didn't think Wario's jab is very good, but I don't play many Warios. You can SDI out of the last hit of the upB and punish the lag (same with Samus, Link, and TL). Warios like biting up close though, it's like a better grab I guess. And his fart has super armor, so I'd say that Wario isn't bad up close against Falcon, but not because of his jab. Not really sure about zones though, but seriously use utilt, and like Lionman said, there's guaranteed grab release movestrings.

 

[Darxmarth23]

I hate the fat man...

U-tilt. He'll abuse his weird aerial mobility, makeing his zone harder to hit.

Don't go below him. Attack him laterally in the air or straight down. But even then, you are screwed against a wario who knows what he is doing.

 

[Iwan]

What about grab releases though guys? Do we have ANY sort of effective grab release on wario?

 

[talkingbeatles]

What about grab releases though guys? Do we have ANY sort of effective grab release on wario?

Oh hell yes we do. Have you seen Knees combos on Wario? They're sick.

 

[LuLLo]

The Wario's I've played totally lost their game once I landed a jab and followed up, can't remember the time I missed a grab after a CC Jab against Wario. But yeah, let's call it a neutral (although Wario's jab sucks)

 

[Wogrim]

The reason for not being really close to Wario is his DAir, which you can't really do anything about from that range.

If you're farther away you can move out of the way in time, FSmash him, or maybe even just grab him out of the air (I've never tried that though).

 

[talkingbeatles]

The Wario's I've played totally lost their game once I landed a jab and followed up, can't remember the time I missed a grab after a CC Jab against Wario. But yeah, let's call it a neutral (although Wario's jab sucks)

Yeah, I'd be cool with neutral. 'Cause even if his jab is piss poor, (my bad on that, I thought it was better then it actually is) he's got his fsmash, and bite.

 

[PhantomX]

The Wario's I've played totally lost their game once I landed a jab and followed up, can't remember the time I missed a grab after a CC Jab against Wario. But yeah, let's call it a neutral (although Wario's jab sucks)

It's called DIing away or DIing down (into my own grab). Jab cancels never lead into guaranteed grabs... EVER, unless the Wario is ******** and DIs into you. Besides, if the Wario gets in close you've already lost, he has two ridiculously good grabs, a dair that shieldpokes, a nair that shieldpokes and combos, and a fsmash with invincibility. Unfortunately for you guys you don't have any particularly good brickwall aerials to use/spam to keep him away.

Also, Wario's jab is AMAZING... but not up close. The reason it's 8 frames is because of it's range. Look at this **** http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3644/3405767186_2fe608f632.jpg?v=0

I THINK your tippered upair beats our dair, so ideally you want to keep us at an angle in front of you at all times... or just run around and try to bair us. No one really has a safe zone against Wario b/c of his mobility.

 

[Player-3]

falcon jab jab grab is a true combo, unless the wario DIs out.... in which case i like to jab again

 

[PhantomX]

If you can DI out of it it's not a true combo...

 

[Iwan]

Bleh. If I would have held out on doing Wario until after Tourney Play I'd have a ton of information for Wario -_-.

I'm gona try to get a MM in with Fiction at tourney play, so once he ***** me and takes my money I might go back and update our wario segment.

rofl.

 

[Player-3]

If you can DI out of it it's not a true combo...

it is on most characters

wario is just annoying

):

 

[Zeallyx]

it is on most characters

wario is just annoying

):

Yeah about that..

opponent+SDI falcons jab =half falcons metagame destroyed?

I've been wondering if jab(>jab)>grab beeing really id a true combo..
with brawl beeing brawl and (S)DI and stuffz..

Ah well..its not like falcon is going to drop on the tier list.

 

[Player-3]

lol wut
jab jab > grab is half of falcons metagame

knee my good sir,
you are doing it wrong

 

[Iwan]

Smash Diing out of a jab grab isn't that effective unless you're using jigglypuff or wario; I play with experienced tournament level players on a weekly basis, and jab jab grab works consistently.

It's because it's fast as hell; it would take not only skill, but also a fair amount of luck and guess work to smash DI well enough in the time it takes us to get out our 2 frame jabs>>>>>grab in order to completely get out.

And once again, that's only if they play a character with great aerial mobility.

 

[t3h n00b]

Would aerial mobility affect the length of the teleport you get from SDI? Or is it just their size or something, like I know what you mean with Jigglypuff and Wario avoiding the grab after jabbing.