Social The WFTGD: How About Some Deep Breathing?

[Fancykong]

I'm gonna ask this here, right now




Has anyone ever played the actual Wii Fit game? Balance Board and all

I don't play Wii Fit, but since I'm a weightlifter I was drawn to his/her fitness oriented moveset. I'm betting that our community is the healthiest group in Sm4sh, hands down.

 

[sam☆jam]

I love how every time I watch a match with Wii Fit Trainer, almost none of the commentators have any idea wtf Wii Fit's moves do. it's like they're surprised every time there's a header/reverse fair spike,

 

[Erimir]

I don't have a capture card, so I haven't been in the habit of saving replays, but I really should've saved this one...

My last FG of the night. Made this guy salty by beating his Mac, so he switched to Captain Falcon because, of course, it's FG.

He kept going for grab, off-stage throw into knee or dair, typical FG cheese. Missing, of course, because it seems all FG Falcons think they can get those knees and off-stage spikes, but most of them are so predictable that it's really not at all hard to avoid. So, what happens when you keep going off-stage against WFT, incompetently?

Early on first stock... gimped by Header without a second jump. Second stock, same strategy... dunked by Header. Disconnect during result screen.

Almost nothing more fun in Smash than spiking thirsty Falcons.

 

[Fancykong]

I don't have a capture card, so I haven't been in the habit of saving replays, but I really should've saved this one...

My last FG of the night. Made this guy salty by beating his Mac, so he switched to Captain Falcon because, of course, it's FG.

He kept going for grab, off-stage throw into knee or dair, typical FG cheese. Missing, of course, because it seems all FG Falcons think they can get those knees and off-stage spikes, but most of them are so predictable that it's really not at all hard to avoid. So, what happens when you keep going off-stage against WFT, incompetently?

Early on first stock... gimped by Header without a second jump. Second stock, same strategy... dunked by Header. Disconnect during result screen.

Almost nothing more fun in Smash than spiking thirsty Falcons.

Ganondorf players are just as thirsty for Dair kills. I dunked one for trying to dunk me. https://youtu.be/DypIHYSsljE

 

[Erimir]

You seem a bit better than me. I wasn't even that impressive in that match, I was just avoiding his predictable attempts to edgeguard off-stage when, bop, headbutted, dead. It was just amusing.

Honestly, against some players with WFT, you might not even need to actually fight back. Just keep recovering and eventually they'll get spiked by Header or Hoops or go too deep because they don't realize how far out WFT can go and how long WFT can stay out there.

So many SDs from people thinking they'll just jump way out there to get me... then I just move further out, they keep going for it... And then Header and Hoops back while they just die. For some reason, Lucinas and Roys seem to be more susceptible to being led too far out than other characters.

 

[Fancykong]

Surprisingly, multi jump characters are extremely susceptible to over extending for a gimp. Kirby, Pits, Jiggs, Meta Knight, etc. They all just burn their initial, decent jump and are left with their extra short hops that have almost no height. They're just sitting ducks, especially poor Jiggs since she doesn't have a recovery up B. You can literally run circles around her, even in the air:
https://youtu.be/WhMrq7ev3Ik

Edit: and here's me dunking Kirby multiple times in the same match, it's so unfortunate:
https://youtu.be/a4qersSr8pQ

 

[Champ Gold]

Ganondorf players are just as thirsty for Dair kills. I dunked one for trying to dunk me. https://youtu.be/DypIHYSsljE

Captain Falcon players are just as bad.


But my greatest kill was Sonic going for a homing attack off-stage and I used Header

Most satisfying kill I've ever gotten.

 

[Completelyoriginalsurname]

This reminds me of when I played a falcon on fg ages ago, on his last stock he went for a (can't remember if b reversed)falcon punch OFF STAGE, and then I header spiked him. Normally I don't brag, but that has to be the most satisfying kill in existence, I wish I still had the replay before all the new updates.

 

[sam☆jam]

I just played @AceStarThe3rd on FG, he was TL and I was WFT. good games, I lost both times. Feel a little bit sick that I let Wii Fit Trainer down

 

[Fancykong]

Lucky you, I keep getting put in Smash banland because of winning too much and getting reported by salty players because of it.

 

[sam☆jam]

I think I actually ran into you on For Glory teams one time, I remember 'cause I don't meet many WFTs online. I was hoping Ace would break his out too for a ditto but maybe he was recording or something

 

[Champ Gold]

Lucky you, I keep getting put in Smash banland because of winning too much and getting reported by salty players because of it.

I didn't noticed until like week before the end of it but I was in the Banished Zone for a while. Still got a great amount of wins.

But my win record is still abysmal

 

[⑨ball]

@ John12346 on http://www.twitch.tv/Bum1six3 in top 4 making me cry

 

[Champ Gold]

@ John12346 on http://www.twitch.tv/Bum1six3 in top 4 making me cry

Man the match was nice but he releasing those Sun Salutaions a little too soon and that matchup with Sheik is bad

 

[⑨ball]

There's still a lot we need to explore vs Sheik and some habits we need to pick up like never agreeing to Smashville.

 

[John12346]

I struck off Smashville during Game 1 both sets I played False, but I had absolutely no choice from then on because I universally ban Lylat and Halberd against all matchups because the slopes make her nigh unplayable IMO. I seriously hate the Sheik matchup though, to a large degree. I honestly don't believe she's a well designed character at all.

Anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed the show~

 

[⑨ball]

I struck off Smashville during Game 1 both sets I played False, but I had absolutely no choice from then on because I universally ban Lylat and Halberd against all matchups because the slopes make her nigh unplayable IMO. I seriously hate the Sheik matchup though, to a large degree. I honestly don't believe she's a well designed character at all.

Anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed the show~

Ahhhh I see.

I'm still undecided on Lylat myself. Any stage that makes bouncing fish not free is looking pretty to me atm, but I definitely get what you mean.

Sheik still has a lot of issues that I'd like to see fixed. None more than needles even though I'm sure more of the community would be happy with a fair landing lag increase. The down throw 50/50 is really the most annoying and I'm trying to lab out ways to beat it.

Definitely enjoyed. I'll be gifycatting that wall cling spike for sure.

 

[Fancykong]

If she didn't have the best projectile and recovery in the game, I'd be happier. Seriously, her Up B only has a couple frames (if that) of vulnerability, explodes the person who dares to edgeguard her and then has a windbox AND a hitbox at the end of it. /rage

 

[John12346]

Don't forget that the ending lag is convertible between air and ground. Everyone's favorite~

Anyway, I have talked about this issue with a fellow Sheik main a few times before, and he agrees Sheik needs to be toned down a little(iirc a good amount of Sheik mains agree with this sentiment, actually). After talking it over a little, we collectively decided the following four things about Sheik are definitely problematic to the game as it stands right now:

1. Super low landing lag on aerials.
2. Needles traveling at unreactable speeds and being unpunishable in many situations.
3. Vanish having i-frames, like at all.
4. The guaranteed super low percent kills or 50/50s enabled by Dthrow.

After thinking about it, we agreed that, if Sheik were to be adjusted in any way, essentially two out of four of the above stated need to be removed. My friend argues 2 and 4, and I believe 1 and 4. But all the same, you could really pick any combination and Sheik would definitely be brought into line while still remaining an excellent character.

Of course, it's probably really scrubby to wish nerfs upon a character, but all the same. Despite my matchup problems with the character, I believe Sheik right now is the ONLY character who is holding back the metagame as it is right now. And it's a little disappointing to see that, to say the least.

 

[Champ Gold]

Don't forget that the ending lag is convertible between air and ground. Everyone's favorite~

Anyway, I have talked about this issue with a fellow Sheik main a few times before, and he agrees Sheik needs to be toned down a little(iirc a good amount of Sheik mains agree with this sentiment, actually). After talking it over a little, we collectively decided the following four things about Sheik are definitely problematic to the game as it stands right now:

1. Super low landing lag on aerials.
2. Needles traveling at unreactable speeds and being unpunishable in many situations.
3. Vanish having i-frames, like at all.
4. The guaranteed super low percent kills or 50/50s enabled by Dthrow.

After thinking about it, we agreed that, if Sheik were to be adjusted in any way, essentially two out of four of the above stated need to be removed. My friend argues 2 and 4, and I believe 1 and 4. But all the same, you could really pick any combination and Sheik would definitely be brought into line while still remaining an excellent character.

Of course, it's probably really scrubby to wish nerfs upon a character, but all the same. Despite my matchup problems with the character, I believe Sheik right now is the ONLY character who is holding back the metagame as it is right now. And it's a little disappointing to see that, to say the least.

The problem isn't her but other characters.

Sheik isn't moreso the problem but the issue is that none of the characters are on her level. ZSS is the closest character to being on her level and the matchup are never in her favor.

Rather than nerf her but fix her issues and buff the roster to her level. The meta can get stronger with stronger characters. I don't want stuff like Pre-Patch Diddy but something where the roster in just as strong as Sheik than being barely weaker than her.

 

[⑨ball]

The problem isn't her but other characters.

Sheik isn't moreso the problem but the issue is that none of the characters are on her level. ZSS is the closest character to being on her level and the matchup are never in her favor.

Rather than nerf her but fix her issues and buff the roster to her level. The meta can get stronger with stronger characters. I don't want stuff like Pre-Patch Diddy but something where the roster in just as strong as Sheik than being barely weaker than her.

I understand the desire to buff the rest of the cast but from a design perspective Sheik has design issues as did pre-patch Diddy.

Just to name a few things: Prepatch Diddy had a frame 3 uair that was functionally a fair, uair, and bair in one. It comboed into itself for high damage, frame trapped air dodges, and killed. On top of a dtilt that comboed into itself and grabs, his absurd roll(which is still crazy), and grab cool down comparable to a jab. And this is all on top of everything else he already had that made him easily top tier like a disjointed autocanceling fair that reached 3 character lengths of his own body, bananas, command grab/attack. That is not good game design.

Sheik's archetype is a fragile speedster. As such she's supposed to have things like bouncing fish, low lag on aerials (though 10 frames is a bit much) good mobility, low weight, ect ect. However she is absolutely NOT supposed to be the best long range zoner in the game with the equivalent of a frame 5 laser with knockback growth. She has absolutely no reason to have invincibility on startup of bouncing fish making her disadvantage state non existent. The rest of her kit is annoying but at least they fit from a design point.

The latter attributes exist without the asynchronous balancing that comes with them and need to be toned down.

 

[Fancykong]

WFT gets buffed to Sheik level:

Header autocancels at any height.

Invincible Jumbo Hoops. Each one falls off and explodes depending on B presses.

Uncharged SS is now as fast as needles.

Sun Fidgeting

Autocancels on all aerials.

Endlag on Utilt and Ftilt removed.

Down throw endlag reduced and launches opponent in an angle perfect for either a Header spike or an Upsmash. 50/50, of course.

....sigh.

 

[Champ Gold]

I understand the desire to buff the rest of the cast but from a design perspective Sheik has design issues as did pre-patch Diddy.

Just to name a few things: Prepatch Diddy had a frame 3 uair that was functionally a fair, uair, and bair in one. It comboed into itself for high damage, frame trapped air dodges, and killed. On top of a dtilt that comboed into itself and grabs, his absurd roll(which is still crazy), and grab cool down comparable to a jab. And this is all on top of everything else he already had that made him easily top tier like a disjointed autocanceling fair that reached 3 character lengths of his own body, bananas, command grab/attack. That is not good game design.

Sheik's archetype is a fragile speedster. As such she's supposed to have things like bouncing fish, low lag on aerials (though 10 frames is a bit much) good mobility, low weight, ect ect. However she is absolutely NOT supposed to be the best long range zoner in the game with the equivalent of a frame 5 laser with knockback growth. She has absolutely no reason to have invincibility on startup of bouncing fish making her disadvantage state non existent. The rest of her kit is annoying but at least they fit from a design point.

The latter attributes exist without the asynchronous balancing that comes with them and need to be toned down.

That's why I said fix her issues while still keeping her decent without butchering her.

I want stronger characters as well considering these 3 straight dominate the meta and no one is close to their levels aside from maybe . IMO I just want a roster where we have strong characters that can give the top tiers a run for their money and can be destructive as well.

 

[⑨ball]

ZSS and Rosalina don't really dominate so much as Nairo and Dabuz are just really really good and happen to use them. Same goes for ESAM as Pikachu. They're all really good characters but only one of them can claim to have no bad matchups because optimal play means competing with a move she shouldn't have.

Sheik will still be the best character in the game if they took needles, and most likely so if they added more cool down on her aerials simply because after all's said and done, Sheik's conversion from safe pokes into damage and edge guard attempts will still exist. Even low % kills from void combos would still exist.

I just want Sakurai to look at Sheik carrying opponents offstage with needles from full screen away and decide if that's a thing he wants to exist. It's very unlikely he'll give it a pass.

 

[John12346]

We kind of have a difference on who dominates the meta.

I've actually held this stance before Diddy got patched and haven't changed it since then, but I believe it's Sheik all by herself who holds this title.

After that, she's followed by Rosa, ZSS, Pikachu, and a few others (I personally would put Fox, Luigi and Sonic up there too). The reason I mention this is that, while these characters are all extremely obnoxious and all pretty amazing in their own rights, they all have their own sets of weaknesses to help balance them out. Rosalina is huge, light, and kind of mid-tierish without Luma hanging around, ZSS has a really bad grab and struggles really hard against characters who crouch as low as Kirby, Sonic has no reliable ways to secure kills and kind of gets shut out by shield... I could keep going, but you get the idea. Sheik, though, doesn't have anything you could attribute as a character weakness, really. In addition, every strong character below Sheik also seems to have matchup checks in other top/high/mid tier matchups, whereas Sheik herself has a couple of 50:50s at best.

I do agree with the concept that characters should be buffed to kingdom come instead of applying nerfs to the cast, but there's a certain level of balance characters should strive towards. In my opinion, Sheik is not it, but rather the other characters directly below her.

 

[Impax]

Don't know if it was a copycat or not but played against a Fancy Kong today (my console name is Domingo and tag Wii+U). Got my butt kicked off stage a bunch, but its always neat on the rare occasion you run into another Wii fit trainer online. Actually get to see how others play him/her

 

[Fancykong]

Ah! That must mean that I'm out of Banland (or you are in it)! Good games. I ended up leaving because I can't play intense matches on FG since it has that inherent lag. Throws off my twitch reflexes.

Just work on your Header Cancels (not feints), and your gameplay should speed up.

 

[Impax]

Thanks for the input.
There's a guide somewhere on here I can use to look into that isn't there?

Also didn't know there's a such thing as banland or how I would know if i was reported and got put there lol. So maybe your out of it?

 

[Cress!]

I'm gonna ask this here, right now

Spoiler

Has anyone ever played the actual Wii Fit game? Balance Board and all

Yep. Got the original Wii version when it first cane out, left it alone for a few years, then got the Wii U version a little over a month ago. Yoga is really relaxing. :3

 

[AusGremlinBoy]

I'll just drop this Acestar GyfCat
http://gfycat.com/UncommonShortFattaileddunnart

 

[Fancykong]

I'll just drop this Acestar GyfCat
http://gfycat.com/UncommonShortFattaileddunnart

....I'm glad that read worked out. Using an upsmash at 100% with no real setup made me nervous.

 

[lRasha]

Random but... it's nice to crouch under ZSS's grab lol I did it at least twice recently

 

[Lord_Espurr]

I forgot my phone when I went on vacation so for the past week I've been browsing smashboards on my 3ds. It takes almost three minutes to load a page...
Also has anyone else done jumbo hoops but there was no noise? Its happening to me a lot lately.

 

[Spaghetti Sammy]

I honestly don't see why people like AceStarTheThird hold WFT up on a freakin pedestal.
All she does is spam.
Whenever youre off the stage:
Charge B
When youre a tiny bit above the ledge:
Side B
When your opponent is at ~80%
Down B to get your free knockback boost.
Use all 2 of your combos.
And dont forget:
Spam B at every single possible moment.
Shes like Link but worse.
She has one of the most predictable, punishable, and lame play styles in the whole game.

I might not see what some... high level, WFTs might see.
But every WFT in tournament plays like this.

 

[Macchiato]

I honestly don't see why people like AceStarTheThird hold WFT up on a freakin pedestal.
All she does is spam.
Whenever youre off the stage:
Charge B
When youre a tiny bit above the ledge:
Side B
When your opponent is at ~80%
Down B to get your free knockback boost.
Use all 2 of your combos.
And dont forget:
Spam B at every single possible moment.
Shes like Link but worse.
She has one of the most predictable, punishable, and lame play styles in the whole game.

I might not see what some... high level, WFTs might see.
But every WFT in tournament plays like this.

ya, maybe FG tournaments lmao

 

[lRasha]

So judging from this Weight list (http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Weight), I realized Villager weighs slightly more than Wii Fit Trainer. O.O

 

[Champ Gold]

>Both the WFT and Mac socials are dead

Oh well

I honestly don't see why people like AceStarTheThird hold WFT up on a freakin pedestal.
All she does is spam.
Whenever youre off the stage:
Charge B
When youre a tiny bit above the ledge:
Side B
When your opponent is at ~80%
Down B to get your free knockback boost.
Use all 2 of your combos.
And dont forget:
Spam B at every single possible moment.
Shes like Link but worse.
She has one of the most predictable, punishable, and lame play styles in the whole game.

I might not see what some... high level, WFTs might see.
But every WFT in tournament plays like this.

It's kinda bad but really it's like playing Samus in a way like her Sun Salutations are her Charge Shots and the Header are like the missiles but with an arc but a great WFT player doesn't rely on SS at all considering it's not good at killing but more of a spacing tool. Wii Fit has a great ground and aerial game which makes her special. She relies more on spacing moreso than spamming. Plus her F-Smash is one of her best moves since its as powerful as but has a hitbox behind her.

 

[Erimir]

I've found way more Samuses whose strategy is to just spam projectiles and almost never approach than WFTs. It's hard to get away with just spamming projectiles with WFT unless your opponent for some reason refuses to approach.

 

[Brickbuild101]

Uh, hello. I'm known among my Miiverse peers for being that one very good Wii Fit Trainer main that demonstrates that she isn't a terrible character. Would anybody like to play sometime?

I'm gonna ask this here, right now




Has anyone ever played the actual Wii Fit game? Balance Board and all

I've owned every game in the series, but never really cared about the stuff starring the Trainers until they became playable in Smash. I do yoga in Wii Fit U on rare occasions when I'm very bored.

 

[Macchiato]

Uh, hello. I'm known among my Miiverse peers for being that one very good Wii Fit Trainer main that demonstrates that she isn't a terrible character. Would anybody like to play sometime?


I've owned every game in the series. I do yoga in Wii Fit U on rare occasions when I'm very bored.

Sure whenever I can, you can ask for matches on skype often and get a response too. Sent a Contact request btw.