The ultimate community collaboration/competition: Team PC vs PS

[Circa]

For the choice in the second slot...what ****s over Rain teams more? I feel like said option is the one we should run. I'm assuming it's Toxic.

 

[atangerine]

I know it's a bit of an odd set but we actually could use this to patch up the pursuit weakness

Starmie@Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Natural Cure
Scald
Toxic / Recover
Rapid Spin
Reflect Type

In a nutshell it lets you escape Pursuiters by copying their type, and essentially every Pursuit user resists Dark. Toxic lets you deal with Jellicent and the like by crippling them on the switch, but Recover lets Starmie tank way more. Not sure what would be more useful.

Thoughts?

Is pursuit really that big of an issue?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Recover > Toxic for longevity if we're concerned about keeping our spinner around as long as possible.

Does anyone know how the team looks exactly so far? EVs/movesets and everything.

 

[IceArrow]

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 Atk / 252 Spd
Mild Nature
- Ice Beam
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Earth Power

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 248 Atk / 156 HP / 104 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Starmie @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Natural Cure
Scald
Recover
Rapid Spin
Reflect Type

Volcarona or Heatran

Terrakion or Conkeldurr

 

[UltiMario]

I've actually been doing some testing with regards to these cores and such (we've been doing this so long I've laddered with 2 teams already) and testing leads me to say that Pursuit isn't that big of a deal and just use LO starmie w/ surf/tbolt/ibeam/spin

supporting Conkeldurr/Heatran btw

 

[mood4food77]

i feel conkeldurr over terrakion, mostly because with terrakion we have a pretty large water weakness

i also approve of heatran, our team is kinda built like a gen 4 team, bulky offense and heatran gives us that much needed steel type


i'm gonna think of 6th members, our core seems pretty solid though so it's gonna be hard

 

[atangerine]

Starmie @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Natural Cure
Scald
Recover
Rapid Spin
Reflect Type

Seems like a waste of a spot IMO...

Also, Conkeldurr and Heatran please.

 

[mood4food77]

it was mostly just a test scenario, ulti made teams and said that offensive spinner is better

well, looking at the marriland team builder, fighting and water are the only 2 types in which we have more than 1 pokemon weak to (and we have 2 pokemon each able to resist those types)

i think we need a revenge killer (conk isn't really a good one) so i think keldeo or alakazam would work best

 

[The Real Gamer]

Starmie @ Leftovers
252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Timid / Natural Cure
Scald
Recover
Rapid Spin
Reflect Type

Seems like a waste of a spot IMO...

Also, Conkeldurr and Heatran please.

Ill assume you're participating? If so ill add you to the list.

 

[IceArrow]

Choice Band Infernape is awesome at revenge killin but we already have Heatran for a fire type. We could Ferrothorn over Heatran as well since Ferrothorn in my opinion is the best pokrmon in OU.

 

[UltiMario]

Ferrothorn makes you lose a **** ton of momentum from existing and gets the team obliterated by Sun

no thanks let's stick with Heatran

 

[atangerine]

Yes please.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Heatran > Ferrothorn on non-weather teams.

 

[IceArrow]

Lol, Sun is and will always be ****. Ferrothorn counters half the pokemon in the tier as well.

 

[atangerine]

Which makes him extremely predictable. But Ferrothorn is a good Pokemon.

 

[mood4food77]

we don't need ferrothorn on this team, i actually think he could be counter-productive (we don't need a bulky support guy, we want bulky offense though)

 

[IceArrow]

He has amazing synergy with the team and every bulky offensive team needs 1 support pokemon.

 

[mood4food77]

heatran covers kyurem's weaknesses way better than ferro does and ferro doesn't provide offensive support, the team does pretty well against rain teams so ferro isn't really needed

we need a revenge killer

 

[IceArrow]

Ferrothorn isn't supposed to provide offensive presence. Heatran in my opinion just isn't good this generation. Also this team has very little to deal with Rain since Kyurem doesn't have Fusion Bolt. Also Landorus and Heatran won't do much either against Rain. So Starmie I guess counters rain but gets killed by any Thunder.

 

[UltiMario]

Starmie and Kyurem still cover rain fairly well, and ANY weathlerless team, even with Heatran, has a sun weakness. You lose to even the ****tiest Sun teams without a good counter to Sun, and Heatran and Mamoswine are the only things that can really do that for weatherless, and trust me, we do NOT need to double up on Ice types. On top of thatiIf there's a single rain threat this team would struggle with, it'd be Keldeo, and Ferro does NOT check Keldeo in Rain.

You massively overrate Ferrothorn btw. It is not the best Pokemon in the metagame by a loooong stretch. It's not even arguably top 5. Top 10 yeah, but that's about it.

 

[atangerine]

I'm just throwing ideas around

One possible revenge killer could be Espeon.

Espeon (Scarf)
252 SpA, 252 Spe, 4 HP
Calm
Magic Bounce

Psyshock/Psychic
Signal Beam
HP Fire
Grass Knot (or something)

This set outspeeds scarfed Keldeo and Terrakion. It's a rather different set, but should still do the job. Not to mention, you get Magic Bounce, making Espeon invulnerable to T-wave or anything.

 

[UltiMario]

That's not the point of what Espeon is supposed to do

What a horrible set jesus

Not to mention we already have a Psychic with Starmie

 

[The Real Gamer]

Atangerine you've been added to the list.

 

[atangerine]

1) I know
2) I already said that it was just an idea, and that it was different. Besides, have you actually tried using the set? Probably not, so please don't say it's horrible if you haven't tried it.
3) Well I didn't know that, because the person above wrote something about Starmie having reflect type or something.

Thanks @The Real Gamer

 

[IceArrow]

Ulti, how do you criticize a set when you just suggest Reflect Type Starmie. Also neither Kyurem or Starmie can truly counter Rain. Ulti, do you know what the current metagame looks like? Sun isn't a threat. Rain and Sand are the weathers we need to worry about. Not Sun and Hail.

 

[Circa]

If the point of this collaboration is to reach the top of the ladder, then we're inevitably going to be facing Sun and Hail teams on our way up. THAT is why it's relevant. If you can't handle even the worst of them, then how do you expect yourself to ever get to the top of the ladder? It just won't happen.

That said, if you really think that Ferrothorn and Infernape make a better fit for this team, then go right ahead and prove it to us. Nobody is stopping you. Just put in Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, Starmie, Ferrothorn, Infernape, and the sixth that you believe makes the most sense and run with it. Get back to us when you've reached the goal, and we'll congratulate you on knowing the direction of this team better than all of us.

As for my 2 cents on the Ferrothorn business, they're right and you're wrong. Why? Because although you're right about most offensive teams having some form of support, you're wrong about Ferrothorn being the thing that fits the bill. Offensive teams, as far as I know, will rarely have a truly dedicated support. More often than not, they just slap the support they need onto a highly offensive body. This is why one could argue that Ulti's Reflect Type Starmie build isn't as ass as it appears. It's managing to supply the support you want while dealing with the threats that are meant to counter it, and it does this while also providing burn support (which is devastating in its own right). Oh yeah, did I also mention that it's doing all this while still taking a chunk of health out of a number of (non-rain) offensive threats?

But if we can't even manage to fit that dedicated of a support onto this offensive team, then how the hell are we going to fit in Ferrothorn, who is even more dedicated to that kind of role?

Random fact: It was very difficult for me to make this post without throwing in a bunch of Magic analogies. Deck building in Magic and team building in Pokemon are pretty ****ing similar, believe it or not.

EDIT: I think what Ulti means about the Espeon set is that it's not a Pokemon you want to see with a Choice item in general. Espeon has absolutely terrible coverage, so its ability to revenge kill tends to be very limited. You might as well use Alakazam if that's really what you're looking for (marginally more powerful and faster, plus Focus Blast for better coverage, though he doesn't have Magic Bounce; I'd argue the ability's not worth it when considering the role), or even Azelf. Actually, Azelf is probably the best fit for that particular role if you're just looking at this from a perspective of a potential revenge killer who ****s on Keldeo and Terrakion. The existence of U-Turn on a revenge killer's moveset (especially one as fast as Azelf) automatically gives it the "coverage" it needs, assuming one other move on the set can kill the opposing Pokemon.

 

[atangerine]

So what exactly are Kyurem-B, Landorus-T, and Starmie's stats?

 

[Riddle]

All stats are in the format of HP/Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense/Speed

Kyurem-B: 125/170/100/120/90/95
Landorus-T: 89/145/90/105/80/91
Starmie: 60/75/85/100/85/115

Here's the team Ulti and I have been using recently to some success if anyone cares:

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
- Earth Power

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Rain stall can be an issue. You have to make some good predictions to beat it, and even then you can lose to random Vaporeons or whatever.

 

[IceArrow]

This team has a HUGE Ferrothorn weakness. This team has a huge weakness to Fighting types and Electric types. I've never seen a team this weak to Thundurus-T, any Dragon with higher speed then Kyurem, and Jellicent.

 

[mood4food77]

heatran ****s all over ferro, literally ****s on ferro

what about alakazam over keldeo, i think it would provide better coverage and help with the fighting weakness

 

[atangerine]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou-43769589

Shows off what scarfed Espeon can do. Granted, the person wasn't very good, and he didn't have any pursuit-users. Again, it's just an idea (glances at UltiMario).

Also, I agree with IceArrow to a certain extent. It seems this team is all about attacking, which is fine, but somewhere we need a support (whether it's Ferrothorn or whatever).

And yeah, Heatran ****s on Ferrothorn.

 

[mood4food77]

heatran, starmie, and landorus are support pokemon, we don't need something directly dedicated to support

hell, even our revenge killer will be support, we don't need ferro and will actually hurt the momentum this team tries to build

 

[IceArrow]

1 solid counter to Ferrothorn and then 4 pokemon that get completely walled by Ferrothorn doesn't sound good. Also every team has a Water type and any Water type counters Heatran.

How does Heatran, Starmie, and Landorus not need support? Those are not support pokemon.

 

[Riddle]

There are not 4 pokemon on that team completely walled by Ferrothorn.

Thundurus-T can't switch into anything and is easily revenged.

Edit: Honestly, Ice Arrow, I think you'd just have a better time making a team on your own. You don't appear to be particularly interested in compromising or using other people's ideas, and you seem constantly outraged at what others are posting. You need to recognize that the suggestions that aren't yours have merit and you could also probably work on being less aggressive. Its up to you how you interact with us on smashboards, and its not really a big deal in the slightest (online pokemon yo), but I think I speak for many of us in saying that you're making this project significantly less fun, and in the process can't be having very much fun yourself.

 

[atangerine]

I've been experimenting with Riddle's team (except with a choice-scarfed Latios instead of Keldeo) and I've had success with it so far.

By the way Riddle, that's a little harsh. He's just trying to improve the team. It's not like he's being insulting or anything. Although Ice Arrow - you do need to tone down the negativity a little.

 

[IceArrow]

That's not the point of what Espeon is supposed to do

What a horrible set jesus

I'm negative? Ulti immediately shoots down a new person to the Poke Centers idea? All of my negative attitude is based on rude behavior of UltiMario and the rude comments on my ideas earlier on the thread. Riddle you are incredibly bias towards your friend Ulti and aren't looking at the situation logically.

It's funny how everything you have said Riddle happened to me earlier in the thread which made me get upset and negative like you guys.[/quote]

 

[UltiMario]

YOU'RE the offensive one that makes everyone get infuriated at dealing with you. When the entire rest of the forum is trying to explain a decision and you're screaming over stuff like Fusion Bolt and making pages of Arguments when everyone was okay with the set is an example of how blindly aggressive you're being.

It's also not my fault the set is outclassed by several things (depending on the aim of the set, anything from Latios and Azelf to other Espeon sets). I don't care if it was a newbie, Riddle, you, or whoever if they suggested that set. It's not good. My little set isn't too good either (even though I asked some people on Smogon in chat about it and some people have used it before, so it's not worthless) but at least I tested it to figure out if it was needed (it wasn't) and have been laddering with various teams to test the effectiveness of some decisions going on here. You just yell at people and heavily decreased the activity of the thread + the fun factor of CCaT.

You can't blame me on being rude for you being rude when I haven't been so in this thread at all.

 

[Riddle]

Ulti, you're rude to IA for sure. IA you're pretty much dismissive of everyone's suggestions. It just seems to me that you're missing the point of "Community Create a Team" and just using it as an opportunity to show off your own teambuilding and battling skills which you clearly believe are superior to those of everyone else.

 

[IceArrow]

Ulti, how am I screaming and yelling at people? Last time I checked this is the Internet.

I just don't understand how any set of Kyurem doesn't use Fusion Bolt and expect it to work. There is a reason that Specially Biased Kyurem set is basically nonexistent, it's because it's a gimmick.

Ulti, you have been rude on this thread, you are rude on every thread, and you could say it nicely to the newcomer that the Espeon set isn't that great.

 

[Spiffykins]

Jeez, this sounded like an interesting project but now I guess I'm just getting in the middle of some bickering.

Anyway, if I may throw my two cents in about the Fusion Bolt thing, I say replace Draco with it. This isn't ubers, Draco+Outrage is a little silly.