The ultimate community collaboration/competition: Team PC vs PS

[The Real Gamer]

Jeez, this sounded like an interesting project but now I guess I'm just getting in the middle of some bickering.

Anyway, if I may throw my two cents in about the Fusion Bolt thing, I say replace Draco with it. This isn't ubers, Draco+Outrage is a little silly.

Don't let this discourage you from joining most of us have been arguing over Pokemon related stuff for years its basically the norm around here. But just in case I'm here to make sure it doesnt get out of hand.

The more the merrier.

 

[Circa]

Ulti, how am I screaming and yelling at people? Last time I checked this is the Internet.

I just don't understand how any set of Kyurem doesn't use Fusion Bolt and expect it to work. There is a reason that Specially Biased Kyurem set is basically nonexistent, it's because it's a gimmick.

Ulti, you have been rude on this thread, you are rude on every thread, and you could say it nicely to the newcomer that the Espeon set isn't that great.

The reason why it looks like yelling is because you're doing the equivalent of arguing over what the best kind of pizza is, and you're just not willing to let it go. It's like we got under your skin somehow and you're now just sitting with it rotating in your mind constantly, to the point where it's made it difficult for you to have a normal conversation with the group.

I would also like to point out that claiming to be the best teambuilder in the Poke Center, mixed with your general dismissiveness of the opinions of others, is extremely offensive. What makes it worse is when we see the problems with the suggestions you make on a fundamental level and point out those problems, and you just continue to argue by posting statistics of various sorts that are, overall, things that don't really matter.

Specially-biased Kyurem isn't nonexistent because of it being a gimmick (it's not). I don't really feel like typing out more paragraphs just to explain the difference psychologically between good, mediocre, and bad players, so I won't explain that bit. However, I will say that Kyurem-B, in general, has a somewhat niche role which has a lot of competition and he's almost never the best (or even close to the most obvious) fit for the spot. A good player is unlikely to use Kyurem-B for that reason unless they were pretty much building a team around him. And from there, there are just so many sets to choose from that when you combine those likelihoods, you get a low usage statistic on such a set.

UltiMario's rudeness stems more from him just being very blunt and forward. If you actually pay attention, you can tell that beyond the bluntness and seeming rudeness (or straight-out rudeness when it comes to certain people; yeah, I won't deny he does it toward select people), there's a heart there. Like, he has decent enough intentions. His delivery just happens to rub people the wrong way.

He also does this thing where he'll say that something is bad and nothing more, just in hopes that the person figures out why it's bad on their own. If the person asks why he almost always explains.

 

[The Real Gamer]

All stats are in the format of HP/Attack/Defense/Special Attack/Special Defense/Speed

Kyurem-B: 125/170/100/120/90/95
Landorus-T: 89/145/90/105/80/91
Starmie: 60/75/85/100/85/115

Here's the team Ulti and I have been using recently to some success if anyone cares:

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Secret Sword
- Hydro Pump
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Surf

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Outrage
- Draco Meteor
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 200 HP / 64 Atk / 244 Def
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Stealth Rock
- U-turn

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
- Earth Power

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Scizor @ Choice Band
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature
- U-turn
- Bullet Punch
- Superpower
- Pursuit

Rain stall can be an issue. You have to make some good predictions to beat it, and even then you can lose to random Vaporeons or whatever.

So I've just started laddering with this team to test it out and I've already noticed a glaring weakness to Jellicent, Rotom-W, and opposing Keldeo. The common Ferrocent combo is a problem to deal with in general. Calm Mind Celebi takes care of all of the above and might be worth looking into.

Nice to see Kyu-B is working as intended... Safely switches into battle off of Lando/Scizor's U-Turn and smashes something... Really screws teams over that lack Ferrothorn or Jirachi.

I'll add more stuff as I keep laddering.

 

[IceArrow]

Circa, not once have I claimed to be the best battler in the Poke Center. Your logic on the Kyurem situation is its the best possible set so its too predictable. That's not how this game works. Sets are the best for a reason, it's not like I'm going to try out Choice Scarf Blissey and expect it to do anything. Ulti is rude and offensive. That won't help him at all and a lot of people will take great offense from his rudeness.

Also I have never ignored anyone's ideas. I just realize the obvious flaws and state it the way Ulti does. Circa, how can you say that stats don't matter?

 

[The Real Gamer]

Every great team has some sort of unpredictability factor to it and ours happens to be this Kyu B set. So far I'm liking it.

 

[UltiMario]

Gunna throw out that's more of Riddle's adaptation of a team I built, my version doesn't have a Ferrocent weakness so I wouldn't really know how you'd play with it against that core, and Rotom-W is easily dispatched by Kyu-B (getting burned really isn't a huge ordeal for the set). Keldeo weakness is relevant for both builds (moreso for mine, which is why he added his own Scarf Keldeo to help counteract it) but yeah it really does have a problematic Keldeo weakness.

The point of this thread isn't our test team as much as the real CCaT.

Btw what Heatran set we using? Conk is going to be Sheer Force LO (there aren't other viable sets in the current meta so it's not really anything you can argue) if we use that.

btw @TRG I really couldn't call this a surprise factor considering that this set (and a Sub/Fusion Bolt/Ice Beam/Earth Power set) are considered the two most deadly sets it can run by Smogon. Being arguably the #1 or #2 set to use isn't a huge surprise at higher level play.

 

[The Real Gamer]

I didn't even know Smogon listed it since I've never seen the set before... But then again I've never used Kyu-B so whatevs.

But in terms of the team I don't think it's a good plan for Kyu-B to be the main answer for opposing Rotom-W since we're just asking for it to get weakened by entry hazards + Volt Turn damage repeatedly.

I'm gonna try replacing Starmie with CM+Baton Pass Celebi and see how that works out. We'd lose the ability to spin hazards, but we'd gain a win condition, overall superior team synergy, and the ability to handle Rain Stall + Keldeo much much efficiently. Plus Baton Pass would give Kyu-B yet another way to safely switch in.

I just don't feel like Starmie's pulling its weight on the team so far.

 

[IceArrow]

I agree with Celebi but we do have a problem with speed. Nothing over 100 and nothing with 252 EVs and positive nature is really troublesome. I know this idea will be instantly denied because of all the talk of Kyurem but I believe using Garchomp and Thundurus-T over Kyurem-B and Landorus would be ideal. We do have a HUGE speed problem if we decide not to go with my idea (which I doubt we will).

 

[UltiMario]

Hazards to keep on switching in aren't exactly an issue if you Spin with Starmie when you get opportunities, but whatever.

I don't even play the team around Kyurem. I just use it to rip holes in things when I get the opportunity and let other stuff clean up the pieces left over. I can't explain how often I lead with the thing- not something you'd usually do if you wanted to play it as a centerpiece.

Also 1. You're not replacing the Pokemon the CCAT is based around 2. Thundurus is **** outside of rain 3. Thundurus is still too slow to check anything Lando doesn't check anyways except like other Kyurem and Hydreigon, both of which only give the team minor issues, especially if the sixth slot Pokemon can deal with them well.

EDIT:

Everyone okay with this so far though?

Kyurem-Black @ Life Orb
Trait: Teravolt
EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Hasty Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Outrage
- Ice Beam
- Earth Power

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 244 Def / 200 HP / 64 Atk
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- U-turn
- Stealth Rock

Starmie @ Life Orb
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Beam
- Rapid Spin

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 120 HP / 116 SDef / 20 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Drain Punch
- Ice Punch
- Mach Punch
- ThunderPunch

 

[Spiffykins]

Don't let this discourage you from joining most of us have been arguing over Pokemon related stuff for years its basically the norm around here. But just in case I'm here to make sure it doesnt get out of hand.

The more the merrier.

Ah yes, even more fun than arguing about a children's card game!

Btw what Heatran set we using? Conk is going to be Sheer Force LO (there aren't other viable sets in the current meta so it's not really anything you can argue) if we use that.

Since when is Sheer Force Conkeldurr definitively better than Guts? Iron Fist is probably better than Sheer Force. Sub+Punch is good, Bulk Up+Drain Punch+Guts is good, Sheer Force is...what...elemental punches and Drain Punch? I've tried this kind of set out before (both in OU with Conk and in RU with Hariyama) and found it pretty underwhelming. What threats do you expect SF Conk to deal with better than other Conk sets?

 

[Circa]

Circa, not once have I claimed to be the best battler in the Poke Center.

Also once this teambuilding ends I want to challenge any of you guys to a set. Then we will see who is better at team building.

I said best teambuilder, and yes there's a difference. I should have probably added the rest of this quote to drive in the "you basically implied it" part, but I didn't want the giant quote wall for the main point.

Your logic on the Kyurem situation is its the best possible set so its too predictable. That's not how this game works. Sets are the best for a reason, it's not like I'm going to try out Choice Scarf Blissey and expect it to do anything.

Did I say that? I don't believe I did. I didn't say anything even close to that, and I don't know how you came to this conclusion from what I did say.

"Just so you know...you are the perfect guy. Just not the perfect guy for me."

While there is a such thing as a best set for basically every Pokemon, that doesn't always make it the best set for a team. Just like how the best Pokemon for a given role isn't necessarily going to be the best Pokemon for the team you're working with. Every position is dealt with on a case-by-case basis. And in the case of Kyurem, we purposely chose the set because it's different from the norm. It's more fun for us to think of how we can best use the set we've chosen which, at least if you ask me, isn't necessarily better or worse than any other Kyurem set. It's just different, and we have to make the most of those differences.

Also, your example is terrible and you should feel terrible for feeling the need to go that far overboard to try and get your point across. Not even the Nazis will touch Choice Scarf Blissey. Trust me, I know. I was one of them during the third World War. Yes, I know you don't remember the occurrence. Most don't. It was so devastating that most people preferred to just block it from memory. But I remember.

Ulti is rude and offensive. That won't help him at all and a lot of people will take great offense from his rudeness. Also I have never ignored anyone's ideas. I just realize the obvious flaws and state it the way Ulti does.

Ulti's attitude is actually pretty standard for most forums that I've frequented. Maybe that's why I don't consider him rude or offensive (outside of a few occasions where, due to the way I think, I would do similar things IRL; if not worse). And no, please do not say you state the obvious flaws in the same way Ulti does. If you did, then I would understand where you're coming from 99% of the time and agree with you more often.

Circa, how can you say that stats don't matter?

The vast majority of people who play competitive Pokemon are either bad or mediocre, and they have a tendency to just follow the current trend. If you're looking at a statistic which comes from the entire player base, then what you're actually reading, at least for the most part, is the opinion of bad and mediocre players, which stemmed from the past opinions of good players. Does this mean statistics are something to disregard? No, of course not. There's a lot of truth in those statistics. They do stay mostly the same for a reason, after all. There just happens to be a right way to use the information and a wrong way to use the information, and the way you tend to talk about these statistics to back up your arguments leads me to believe that you mostly use them in the wrong way.

 

[UltiMario]

Since when is Sheer Force Conkeldurr definitively better than Guts? Iron Fist is probably better than Sheer Force. Sub+Punch is good, Bulk Up+Drain Punch+Guts is good, Sheer Force is...what...elemental punches and Drain Punch? I've tried this kind of set out before (both in OU with Conk and in RU with Hariyama) and found it pretty underwhelming. What threats do you expect SF Conk to deal with better than other Conk sets?

BU doesn't work anymore because here's how BU goes:

Turn 1: Get in on something that you force out
Turn 2: Bulk Up, something comes in that forces you out

and then it never accomplishes anything. In the rare chance you DO beat whatever comes out, the thing that will come after it will kill you for sure. The set has no immediate power and is too slow paced in itself to warrant use.

What SF Conkeldurr does is have Ice Punches and Thunder Punches that are stronger than Life Orb Iron Fist or Guts or Choice Band or BU sets after +1 (doing **** like OHKOing DNite through Multiscale- something that basically nothing without STAB or Mold Breaker can do with an attack) that have no LO recoil (which can bluff Band or Lefties depending on the situation). On top of that, its Drain Punches and Mach Punches still hit like a truck. It brings the most immediate power to the table that Conkeldurr can do, and that's about the only solid niche that makes Conkeldurr different from other Fighting types. If you want to use SubPunch or Bulk Up, use something else (actually for Bulk Up, don't, because there aren't viable Bulk Uppers in OU).

 

[The Real Gamer]

\

(actually for Bulk Up, don't, because there aren't viable Bulk Uppers in OU).

Toxicroak would like a word with you.

 

[UltiMario]

Kinda forgot about him

But it's not BU that makes him viable

It's Dry Skin

He's very capable of running the BU set but with SD over BU and it be just as effective

Still, somehow forgot about him

 

[Circa]

I'm always a fan of a bulky Fighting-type on a team, and that Conkeldurr set certainly does help with some of our current problems. I approve.

I know this is probably a terrible consideration for a Heatran set, but is it possible to mishmash him into something that just kind of does a bunch of **** our team wants? I'm not sure I see any one set that really sticks out in the realm of "aw yeah I want that ****," and I feel like we'll probably get our most mileage out of him if he happens to be our weird set for the team.

 

[IceArrow]

I don't even play the team around Kyurem.

You're not replacing the Pokemon the CCAT is based around

Lol

 

[UltiMario]

Irrelevant since my team isn't the CCAT and you still can't change the base member of a CCAT because that's not how you do ****

 

[IceArrow]

Teams don't have a base member unless its a Baton Pass team.

 

[CRASHiC]

 

[UltiMario]

Teams don't have a base member unless its a Baton Pass team.

Why am I not surprised with team building insight like this that everyone is having a hard time building a team with you.

Also this is literally the definition of you ruining this thread IA

You don't care about the CCAT you just want to argue with people

I even tried to get things back on track and you just want to argue over pointless things more

 

[atangerine]

Conkeldurr @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 252 Atk / 120 HP / 116 SDef / 20 Spd

Landorus-Therian (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Intimidate
EVs: 244 Def / 200 HP / 64 Atk

Could someone explain these EV's to me? Sorry for asking such a noob question lol

Also, I love the Kyurem-B set.

 

[Circa]

I believe the Lando-T set is invested as such to sponge certain hits (or I guess I should say, it's invested to sponge two of pretty much any neutral physical hit you'd see from anything in the current meta), and then the rest is thrown into Attack to maximize its offensive presence from there. The Attack stat you end up with is comparable to a fully invested Gyarados, so it's not like you need much more than that anyway.

The Conkeldurr bulk is meant to mini- you know, it's probably just better to say that the people over at Smogon spend too much time crunching numbers to figure out how to get really minor benefits from any given set, so we'll just say it's for those benefits. I actually don't know all of said benefits, so yeah. Conkeldurr's Special Defense is pretty **** though, so I know it's at least for the sake of him not being made of paper on that side. I can also tell you that the Speed investment is there to outpace Hippowdon. I actually know that one. :x

 

[The Real Gamer]

Teams don't have a base member unless its a Baton Pass team.

You're kidding right...? Almost every great team has a centerpiece or two that they build around.

Here's an interesting team built around Shedninja of all things: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/wonderous-storm-peaked-2200.3487031/ Creativity really goes a long way in the current meta.

 

[atangerine]

We should probably make a list of things we still need. Like a revenge killer for instance.

 

[UltiMario]

Something that beats sun, something that's not slow as ****, something that can revenge kill, something that can take on Dragons

 

[mood4food77]

nobody ever pays me in gum...

alakazam would work well on this team, hits like a truck and threatens keldeo (something we seriously need)

Alakazam @ Focus Sash
Magic Guard / Timid
252 SpA / 252 Spe / 6 HP
Psychic / Psyshock
Focus Blast
Signal Beam
HP Ice/Fire

Focus sash is needed on this team for it to handle keldeo (since keldeo is almost always scarfed) but it also deals a large dent into stuff that our team has trouble with

 

[UltiMario]

ScarfTran could actually fill all 4 of those roles in a single spot

Heatran@Choice Scarf
Flash Fire / Timid
4 SpD / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Fire Blast
Earth Power
Hidden Power Ice
Magma Storm / Overheat / Explosion

Something like that

 

[mood4food77]

so what do we do about keldeo, he puts a good dent into most of this team with starmie the only able to take more than 1 hit

 

[atangerine]

The team has a pretty big starmie weakness...

 

[Circa]

I like how we're talking about these weaknesses and not even mentioning Latias. I'm pretty sure there's a set out there that makes her a decent to excellent option against pretty much everything we currently have issues with.

EDIT: Actually, Latios might be better. I'll look into it once I'm off this bus and settled down in my hotel room (yay GenCon).

 

[mood4food77]

doesn't kyurem take a poo on starmie?

also, i think scarf latios could do wonders on this team, something like

Latios @ Choice Scarf
Levitate / Timid
252 Spe / 252 SpA / 6 whatever you please
Surf
Draco Meteor
Coverage Move
Trick / Coverage Move

 

[UltiMario]

If we run ScarfTran then specs or LO Latios would be a better option

 

[mood4food77]

i actually think running ScarfLatios would be better than running ScarfTran on this team but does need testing

 

[The Real Gamer]

I say we ditch whatever we're currently trying to do with the team and go DragMag. I'm about to hit top 100 on the ladder with a team centered around Kyu-B, Latias, and Magnezone and it's working almost too well (have yet to lose a match in the past 15 games).

 

[IceArrow]

I think the point of this is to collectively build a team. Not use a team already made by a member of the project. If we were doing that then the best possible team is using a team with Tyranitar, Scizor, Keldeo, and Latias/Latios core.

 

[The Real Gamer]

No need to copy my exact team... I just think Magnezone should be thrown in there somewhere.

 

[UltiMario]

On my main account the team I'm currently using (based off the CCAT) would be in top 40 if I kept laddering with it to get it out of provisional.

DragMag is good but it's not really a direction the team can go in at this point.

 

[mood4food77]

i think scarf latios and a bulky heatran would probably be best bet, we want a revenge killer than can deal with keldo and latios does just that (as keldeo is our biggest threat), the pursuit weakness isn't so big (both latios and starmie will hurt the main pursuiters for big damage)

 

[UltiMario]

Scarf Latios can't do **** to either TTar or Scizor without specs though.

 

[Circa]

Why would Latios need Scarf to beat Keldeo anyway? I'm confused by this.

I honestly think Ulti hit it right on the head, but then I had been thinking ScarfTran anyway, but I didn't know if this team would have a big enough rain weakness that we'd be forced to run a way to cancel it. Though, I don't think we do when looking at where exactly our power lies.

The debate over LO and Specs on Latios is more where we should be putting our attention.