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The ultimate community collaboration/competition: Team PC vs PS

mood4food77

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how does gliscor help more than lando?

i think most of us are looking at lando for an offensive pivot which gliscor is definitely not, while actually being more physically bulky (thanks to intimidate) and being able to dish back more damage, all for being just a smidge slower

gliscor is really there to stall, while he does a good job at it, it's not what the rest of us are looking for to help kyurem-b, in a super offensive game, we want to bring out the offense and lando-t definitely does that better than gliscor
 

IceArrow

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Gliscor is bulkier, has a better movepool, and a better ability.

Pokemon is definitely not a super offensive game. If you guys are locked into using that terrible Kyurem-B set then it would be much better to just use regular Kyurem.
 

The Real Gamer

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IceArrow I think we've seen enough in terms of Landorus and Kyurem. We're all around the same level competitively and so far you just haven't been nearly convincing enough to change our minds when the numbers are against you 6 to 1.

For now we're going with Kyu-B and Lando-T. If either ends up becoming unfit for the team we'll make adjustments later.

Please keep in mind the first 6 Pokemon we throw together are very unlikely to end up in the final product. No need to get angry with the team when we're only at point A.
 

IceArrow

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I don't think we are all around the same level competitively. I just see this idea ending up horrible based on the 2 pokemon chosen and the sets they are using.
 

Circa

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I can't be convinced that you're not trolling at this point. If you wanted to show to us your competence as a battler, in any sort of logical manner, you wouldn't be in here posting statistics about how easy it is for Kyurem-B to kill the likes of Gyara, Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn with moves that people will already believe are on the set.

Seriously. Why would people's first switch-in be Gyara when they're staring at a Pokemon that often has Fusion Bolt? Doesn't DM get a guaranteed OHKO after SR anyway? Why would you even include a statistic for Scizor, who is almost always just going to come in for the revenge kill and not give Kyurem-B the chance to even attack? Why would you bring two Pokemon into this conversation that are probably going to be initial switch-ins, and as such won't require you to do anything more than 2HKO?

You know how our set has DM on it? Well,don't use it immediately. That's how you play the set. HP Fire is more common for Special-Mixed than DM is, so the longer you can get away with not using it, the more bang you'll get for your buck.

Your lack of understanding on what makes Landorus-T bulkier, as well as what gives him a better movepool (*hint hint* it's the 145 base Attack) for the efforts of this team make me question how much you actually know about all that goes in to the team-building process.

You go Kyurem-B for the much more usable 175 base Attack without investment, btw. Well, that and mindgames. Kyurem-B's set usage is so much more ambiguous than that of regular Kyurem; so much moreso, in fact, that it alone outweighs the 10 higher base SAtk you're getting from the switch.

EDIT: As TRG said, this isn't the final draft of the team, either. Chances are extremely low that we'll manage to make a team that tops the PS leaderboards on our first go. Look at this thread as more of a collaborative, on-going experiment in team-building on the whole as opposed to a collaborative, results-based team-building process. Comparing how good we are competitively makes no sense when you consider where we actually stand in the grand scheme of things.

It's like we're all trapped in a giant pit and we're told that in order to get out, we'll have to work really hard and also discover this super ultimate secret to life or something, and you're gloating about how much better than us you happen to be because you're much more physically fit than you are.

It makes no difference without the secret.
 

IceArrow

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So Circa, your point of view is that the player you are battling against is an idiot. After one attack you should be able to determine the set/movepool.

Also Kyurem-B doesn't have 175 base attack.

Once you switch Landorus-T it won't wall anything because anyone with a brain will switch to Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, or Bronzong. There are a lot of other counters but since your Kyurem-B set doesn't have Fusion Bolt or Hidden Power Fire then these 2 pokemon will have no synergy.
 

mood4food77

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gliscor has very minimal offensive presence, why the rest of us are deciding on lando

i feel like we should use heatran, great for SR use and resists ice, or perhaps a spinner like tentacruel (i feel he actually has good synergy, resists a lot of what kyurem-b is weak to)

lando-t is also kyruem-b's 5th most common teammate...just saying
 

The Real Gamer

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Once you switch Landorus-T it won't wall anything because anyone with a brain will switch to Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, or Bronzong.
Which is why LandoT has UTURN. LandoT isn't on the team to wall its for this this thing called MOMENTUM. LandoT is the ultimate momentum grabber.

Its a God damn top 15 Pokemon in terms of usage rate among experienced battlers for Christ's sake... why am I still explaining myself??
 

Circa

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So Circa, your point of view is that the player you are battling against is an idiot. After one attack you should be able to determine the set/movepool.
Quite the opposite, actually. A more intelligent player will figure out the basic premise of the set upon the first move used; They then have to consider the likelihood that certain moves will be on the set. They then have to respect those options, and work from there. The word 'respect' is where my wording was messed up in the original post. It should have been in there somewhere.

Back when I still played quite a lot, I pretty much got to the point where I was figuring out the majority of people's teams based on the first two Pokemon that they would send out. If I didn't figure out the Pokemon specifically, I'd at least figure out their general typings and what sort of set each would be carrying.

Gen 4, btw. Although I honestly don't pay any attention to team preview either, since I guess that's a thing now.

Also Kyurem-B doesn't have 175 base attack.
170. My bad. I added 5 to his base Attack and SAtk when making that post for some reason, and then when I went to make sure for his SAtk I never bothered to look at his Atk.

Once you switch Landorus-T it won't wall anything because anyone with a brain will switch to Skarmory, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Rotom-W, or Bronzong. There are a lot of other counters but since your Kyurem-B set doesn't have Fusion Bolt or Hidden Power Fire then these 2 pokemon will have no synergy.
U-Turn U-Turn U-Turn. Never underestimate the amount of pressure this move can put on your opponent.

And once again I'll say it; they shouldn't know on first-hand whether or not you're carrying HP Fire right out of the gates, and they'll have to respect the fact that you might regardless. It does become a bit of a problem once they do figure it out, but I'd hope that the holes you were able to punch through their team would let at least one of your other four Pokemon clean up (assuming Lando-T can't do it either). I'd say we're bad team builders if we can't manage that.

Also, for half of the Pokemon you mentioned, Lando-T CAN handle them (well, maybe not Skarm. I'm too lazy to calculate that one). We'd just have to find another place on our team for SR. And that certainly isn't out of the question.
 

IceArrow

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I do think Landorus-T is a good teammate to Kyurem but only if you use a normal Kyurem set and you have fast pokemon with those 2.

64+ Atk Landorus-T U-turn vs. 252 HP / 168 Def Bronzong: 62-73 (18.34 - 21.59%) -- possible 7HKO

64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: 115-136 (32.67 - 38.63%) -- 4.03% chance to 3HKO

64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Forretress: 97-115 (27.4 - 32.48%) -- possible 4HKO

64+ Atk Landorus-T Stone Edge vs. 232 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 108-128 (36.12 - 42.8%) -- 97.85% chance to 3HKO
 

mood4food77

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kyurem-b does a pretty good job on rotom and we only need something like heatran or volcarona to take care of the rest (actually, volc does a a pretty good job at checking rotom)

lando is a great offensive pivot, he doesn't need to take on everything that kyurem can't
 

Circa

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When I said that he could handle them, I meant that we could opt for Gravity over SR. Thus why I said we'd need to find another place on the team for SR.

EQ suddenly becomes a 2HKO vs 252 HP/252 Def +Def-natured Bronzong and a OHKO vs Rotom-W, which were the two outside of Skarmory that I was talking about.

This doesn't mean that I think we should opt for it, btw. I'm just saying it's an option if we find that we actually need it in the end.
 

IceArrow

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Heatran is slow and Vocarona needs Rapid Spin support. Also Giga Drain on Volcarona isn't as good as Hidden Power Ice. Gravity is good though.
 

mood4food77

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does heatran being slow really matter when heatran and kyurem resist every attack that isn't fighting (which lando resists)

and quiver dance volc doesn't really need SR as it'll 1-2HKO pretty much anything that isn't heatran
 

kirbyraeg

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kyu-b actually beats conkeldurr one on one, as its Ice Beam/DM are strong enough to easily 1hko any version of it and it can easily survive even a guts-boosted mach punch.

keldeo is the best rain sweeper in OU, but something like Scarf Latios with psyshock handles even CM and Icy Wind versions of keldeo quite nicely and switches in easily on Sacred Sword. Alternatively, Starmie is a decent non-scarf answer that can use either Thunder or Psychic/Psyshock while resisting its dual stabs and its common coverage.

Alakazam is a pain to prepare for when we don't know what our scarfer(s) is(are). However, scarfed latios can 2hko sashed versions and 1hko LO versions with no problems. If we wanted to get extra gimmicky (which we don't), scarf breloom is the absolute best surprise counter that can either spore it or just break through the sash with bullet seed. Choiced Scizor is decent vs. alakazam, as is CBNite (doubling up on that dragon coverage is fun), and if we were truly desperate to counter zam we could run Weavile, who is a guaranteed trap/kill vs. it.
 

Circa

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I'd assume it's worth mentioning Starmie and Volcarona in tandem, then. I have a feeling it's not staying, but it's still worth mentioning.

Part of me really wants to try and mix some offensive Wish support into this team just for ****s and giggles, but I can't think of any way to do that outside of Latias or a weird Jirachi set.
 

IceArrow

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Starmie and Volcarona do make a good combination for this team. I would also suggest using Gravity Landorus-T and Focus Sash Stealth Rock Terrakion.
 

The Real Gamer

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I'm done with this. Might ladder with the team a bit, if I'm allowed to participate in the second phase.

Would it be okay to ask why? Really hope it's not because of one person.

But regardless it's cool. I mean heck there's no rule that says you HAVE to contribute an "x" amount of times over the span of "y" days. Feel free to pop in and give some suggestions whenever!
 

UltiMario

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TRG, just say my name lol. I'm just tired of Ulti's poor behavior whenever somebody argues with him.
Not something you can cite to have happened in like 2 years (time flies doesn't it?).

You on the other hand, have done this for half the thread.
 

kirbyraeg

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i'm gonna start messing around with some basic team combos, we can talk about good partners while i'm working through my own ideas

since kyu-b and lando-t are basically agreed upon, we can come up with partners that meet the following criteria:

1: we need a revenge killer
2: we need a keldeo counter
3: we need a way to stop faster dragons like lati@s
4: we need a sweeper that takes advantage of steel-types being gone
 

mood4food77

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scizor?
jellicent
mamoswine?
scizor could double as this

honestly, i think jellicent will work great as it's seems that most of our ideas we throw around still bring up that keldeo will be a pain in the ass for the team
 

kirbyraeg

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well, I have an idea for a sweeper. It's not a common sweeper, but I think it'll work great with kyu-b because of how damn bulky this thing gets.

Latias @ Leftovers
252 HP/252 Def/4 Spe (or hit a speed benchmark, whatever)
Bold / Levitate

Calm Mind
Sub
Recover
Dragon Pulse

mono-attack latias is one of the strongest threats when it is a physically bulky version. If it has defense investment, it can tank hits that are just plain stupid.

LO Mamoswine Icicle Crash: (84.07% - 98.90%)
CB Scizor Bullet Punch: (34.62% - 40.66%)
CB Terrakion Stone Edge: (51.37% - 60.99%)
ScarfMence Outrage: (85.71% - 101.10%)

Its sub is also bulky.

160 Atk Jirachi Iron Head: (21.43% - 25.55%)
RestTalk Gyarados Dragon Tail: (22.53% - 26.92%)

Just an idea. Might not be the best since it overlaps with kyu-b focusing on special moves, but then again that might just give us a reason to choose physical mix set instead. it'd also mean we need a way to clear weather, which means that rain would be a good way to go.
 

The Real Gamer

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Im a fan of Latias but with the prevalence of Scizor, Jirachi, Tyranitar, and SpDef Heatran I question how effectively she could pull off consistent sweeps.

If we go with that route we'd really need to focus the rest of our team members on Pokemon that could constantly threaten the above 4. I guess LandoT is a good start since it can beat all of the above 1 v 1.

Ice its only 3 Pokemon so far... just chill we'll get to the big threats soon.

ACTUALLY... Gravity LandoT might be THE perfect partner for CM Latias... Threatens pretty much all of CM Latias's main counters: Ttar, Jirachi, Scizor, SpD/Baloon Heatran, Bronzong, and Skarmory.

I say we go for it!
 

Circa

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Either rain or we have the option of looking at the Sunny Day Heatran set. Our team thus far gets no benefit from the existence of rain, and sand/hail are pretty out of the question as well. That Heatran set gives us the benefit of resetting weather without committing to it.

I really like that Latias set, btw.

I'm on my phone and have ****ty service right now so I can't check, but is there anything in existence that manages well against Keldeo and Lati@s while still keeping on the offensive?
 

IceArrow

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+6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 145-171 (37.66 - 44.41%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Jirachi: 153-180 (37.87 - 44.55%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Latias is just a sweeping version of that Kyurem set. It has the same counters. Gravity Landorus does help but I definitely don't agree with using a second dragon type already. Also Latias NEEDS 252 Speed and positive nature to be useful. Latios counters this team pretty badly right now.

+6 4 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Scizor: 250-295 (72.88 - 86%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Scizor U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 410-486 (112.63 - 133.51%) -- guaranteed OHKO
 

The Real Gamer

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Latias is just a sweeping version of that Kyurem set. It has the same counters. Gravity Landorus does help but I definitely don't agree with using a second dragon type already. Also Latias NEEDS 252 Speed and positive nature to be useful. Latios counters this team pretty badly right now.

Am I on your ignore list or something? We've only seriously discussed THREE Pokemon dude. Name one team that isn't countered by a top threat with only THREE POKEMON.

Also Latios doesn't "counter" anything about our 3 discussed choices. A counter is a Pokemon that can easily switch into another with ease and instantly threaten it. You're thinking of the term "check."
 

IceArrow

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Your team should start with good synergy. The Scizor and Rotom-W combo has amazing synergy and no counters. Skarmbliss is alyways difficult to break down. It's just not a good idea to start a team where 2 out of 3 pokemon have a same type unless there is a weather.
 

The Real Gamer

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You're right it's usually not wise to stack multiple Pokemon of the same type but Dragons are different thanks to their combination of immense power + multiple resistances (drag+mag teams are still legit). The only weakness both Kyu-B and Latias share are Dragon attacks. Synergy-wise they're actually not too shabby.

Actually with 2 offensive dragons we may want to seriously consider Magnezone. In theory It would be the perfect partner for LandoT since it could easily U-Turn into a Steel and we can switch Zone in for the trap. ALSO this would force the opponent to think twice before firing a Bullet Punch at Kyu-B. One other plus is that Magnezone has perfect defensive synergy with Latias.
 

IceArrow

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I agree with Magnezone. I'm not really trying to hate everything. I'm just pointing out the flaws of these pokemon and their synergy. Yes that Latias set is very good but I don't think it should be used on this team. A better sweeper with good synergy like Keldeo or Reuniclus would be best.
 

Circa

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I'd rather test the team with the Latias set. I understand how it's meant to fit in and I'm interested in seeing where it takes us for the rest of this venture.

I have little else to say on the subject.
 

kirbyraeg

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I know their defensive synergy is kinda crap, BUT kyu-b can 2hko jirachi (earth power), bronzong (ignores levitate with teravolt), ferrothorn (ice beam), and skarm (ice beam). Latias with max defense can use specially defensive jirachi and heatran as pure setup, as that calc vs. the special paraflinch set demonstrated, and it can engage in a setup war with any version of keldeo besides specs keldeo as an added bonus.

Also, I know that although synergy is a good place to begin building teams, functional synergy goes beyond covering type weaknesses but also covering common attack combinations and specific metagame threats.
 

IceArrow

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The offensive synergy though Latias has nothing to bring since his one attack Kyurem already has 2 stronger attacks of the same type.
 
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