The truth about Brawl and why it will fail

[raptorbaby10]

Well, I've always believed that Smash Brothers was a casual game turned competitive by the players. Brawl is no different, really. Yeah, it's missing the techniques that developed Melee's metagame, but it can still be competitive based on what the players make of it. That's the way Smash has always been.

If you were in Sakurai's shoes, you'd develop Brawl as he has. That's because the players can usually make a lot more out of a game than the devs can, because while one team can develop a game, a whole world of gamers are the ones who play and interpret it. In a way, as a dev, you're always aware of the fact that the players of your game are really just extensions of it, so you'd use that to your advantage. As long as a game is open to varied interpretations among different audiences, it's golden. Again, this is what made Smash such a successful series in the first place.

I don't see why Gimpy would care. His character is actually GOOD in Brawl.

Anyway, I've already made a theory about "competitive factions within the Smash community." To some, Brawl is a step forwards. For others, it's a step backwards. Either way, Brawl will have its own competitive community, with people who try to enhance the metagame. Others who still enjoy the already established metagame with Melee will stick with it, obviously, and just forget about Brawl. Not everyone who played Smash 64 moved onto Melee, especially in a competitive sense. Not everyone who played Melee will move onto Brawl, in the same manner. That's just the way things go. It's up to the gamer in question to decide what he wants to do. I can't believe people expected the transition from Melee to Brawl to be super smooth and flawless. We're talking about VIDEOGAMES here, especially in the fighting genre. Things are always going to change.

QFT

By far the best 2 posts I've read on the boards in a while. All I've seen in the last few weeks is people *****ing about Brawl and whatever their interpretation of what its become. stfu; we get it. People will make the game out to what they want.

Rash, please don't stop posting. Your logic-filled posts enlighten me. LOL
Seriously though, I love it.

 

[KRSplat]

Sakurai is just a selfish pr!@$ who decided that some people were playing his game differently than he wanted, so he decided to f&@$ Brawl over. He did it for personal, not business, reasons, which makes him selfish pr!@$

It is his game... it's not like he, or anyone else, is stopping you from playing something different. I understand if you don't like the game, and I agree with you on your points, but attacking its creator because he decided to go a different direction is wrong. The man is not responsible for you.

 

[Eggm]

If I see one more person say "Well competitive players make only 1% of the people who play smash, Sakurai should cater to the other 99% for better business" I will puke.

Melee was the best selling game for the gamecube even though it's probably the most competitive multiplayer game Nintendo ever developed. Why did it sell so well then? Because the 99% of players who bought it have no clue about the advanced techs or even these forums. They bought it because it was a unique and fun game.

THOSE PEOPLE would've bought Brawl regardless if Sakurai left DD, LC, different fall speeds, FASTER gameplay, etc. in Brawl.

The most game-changing (ruining) aspect he designed for Brawl was the absolute lack of hitstun for attacks and grabs. Notice the pattern guys?
Hitstun in SSB64 >> Hitstun in SSBM >>>>>>>> Hitstun in Brawl.

Sakurai is just a selfish pr!@$ who decided that some people were playing his game differently than he wanted, so he decided to f&@$ Brawl over. He did it for personal, not business, reasons, which makes him selfish pr!@$

I repeat, Brawl, like Melee, wouldv'e sold EXCELLENTLY regardless of how competitive the game could potentially be.

Why couldn't he give us the OPTION to have LC, etc. in Brawl. I mean WTF ever happened to adding OPTIONS with games? I don't care if it would've taken the place of (the unremarkable 6 months from now) SSE, MORE options = BETTER.

Oh, and rock-paper-scizzors can be competitive... THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT fun, exciting, or DEEP. So stop regurgitating that ******** quote people.

/rant :D

Wow a reasonable person in NYC who thinks clearly other than vanz/alukard/djintendo/jman/hax/reno? I'm glad you see the light and don't think brawl is the best thing since sliced bread cause you started losing to new members of the melee community like D.A.

 

[The Grinch]

http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=152758 This is a post I found that I find to be quite interesting and true. I thought I would bring it to the attention of the Smash boys since SRKers are some of the biggest ******* you'll find on net. I'll post my thoughts later but essentially everything Gimpy had to say I agreed with.

SRKers are some of the biggest ******* you'll find on the net?

What? So everyone of us here are waaaay better because we're on smashboards?

What a ******* thing to say. What makes you think that everyone or even a huge majority of the people that use SRK are *******?

I guess I should call you a ****** too, right? Sure I don't know anything about you, I'm just going off things you post I suppose. But it's obviously the right thing to do.

SRKers + Smashers = 1

We all enjoy competitive fighting games, and have communities for it. We're all in all the same, a comment like that is just below us, and very rude.

 

[Embrio]

I knew from the start SSBB wasn't gonna last, i've tried and tried but I just can't get into it. Its been sitting untouched for a week already.....hope melee gets repacked for Wii with wifi.

 

[DRaGZ]

I thought this was all very obvious.

Sakurai never wanted a highly competitive game. If he did, he wouldn't have put in items...

after experimenting and playing the game enough the conclusion I've come to about brawl is that it's progression will be backwards.

The game starts with decent combos and gimp kills, and the only reason they exist is because people haven't mastered the defensive options in the game, as the game progresses combos will become smaller and smaller, and gimp kills will nearly fade out of existence. That's just how the game is.

In most games the progression is the opposite, starting with smaller combos and the like and ending with more elaborate things.

This makes for an eventual overly stale simplified game that isn't exciting to watch in a competitive sense, and will eventually shorten the game's overall lifespan.

discuss.

This is something I've come to realize as well.

*sigh*

The only way to really stop this is to find a way to stop camping, which is the largest part of what makes Brawl such a defensively oriented game.

 

[Koga]

what's this? Oh yeah.....

He only meant it to be a party game huh...?

If you read his interviews he's mostly talking about four player, FFA, time with items. That by itself isn't competative anyways

however; Stock, and the item switch says Hello!

use your brains and read all of his interviews

...isn't exciting to watch...

so this is what its all about isn't it? The game doesn't look as fancy to you? Thats all opinion my friend. Now please go away if you are gonna spread your opinions like they're truth just because you've played other fighting games.

im done here

 

[Embrio]

SRKers are some of the biggest ******* you'll find on the net?

What? So everyone of us here are waaaay better because we're on smashboards?

What a ******* thing to say. What makes you think that everyone or even a huge majority of the people that use SRK are *******?

I guess I should call you a ****** too, right? Sure I don't know anything about you, I'm just going off things you post I suppose. But it's obviously the right thing to do.

SRKers + Smashers = 1

We all enjoy competitive fighting games, and have communities for it. We're all in all the same, a comment like that is just below us, and very rude.

Iv'e been to numerous online forums and after my time in SRK I can tell you right now that SRK has some of the worst trolls/flamers you'll find. The smash dedicated threads in SRK were 99 pages worth of "why Items should be in tourny play" or "why the SWF dudes are scrubs for banning stages and items". Its like the long lost brother to gamefaqs or something. Almost the majority of SRKers are nothing more then "Top player" dickriders that pass of watching match videos on youtube as "tourny experience"....believe me when I tell you SRK is trash. Sorry didnt mean to derail the thread or anything.

 

[Luv2Brawl]

This is why I love this game. It should be known that it's not as competitive as other fighters and I keep believing that it is a fighter because I hate fighters. I think Sakurai wants to emphize on simplicity of the game and everyone could enjoy. On that department, Sakurai succeeded. But he definetly did something because Link isn't my main in Brawl like he was in the last two.

 

[Embrio]

The simpe truth is Sak is the biggest ***got developer of all time.

 

[The Grinch]

Iv'e been to numerous online forums and after my time in SRK I can tell you right now that SRK has some of the worst trolls/flamers you'll find. The smash dedicated threads in SRK were 99 pages worth of "why Items should be in tourny play" or "why the SWF dudes are scrubs for banning stages and items". Its like the long lost brother to gamefaqs or something. Almost the majority of SRKers are nothing more then "Top player" dickriders that pass of watching match videos on youtube as "tourny experience"....believe me when I tell you SRK is trash. Sorry didnt mean to derail the thread or anything.

In the heat of it all, I sometimes forget what I impose myself, and that's "everyone has their own opinion," the opinion in question being your view of SRK.

Anyways, your response was really mature, I honestly expected you or someone else to attack me for being so defensive about what you said.

When I look back at it now, I apologize for being so aggressive. I only took it to heart because I regular SRK myself.

I know what you mean though, but I hope you don't think every SRK user is like that, I know plenty of great NON flamers/trolls that regular SRK as well.

Again, sorry about that, thanks for the mature response.

 

[Problem2]

I knew from the start SSBB wasn't gonna last, i've tried and tried but I just can't get into it. Its been sitting untouched for a week already.....hope melee gets repacked for Wii with wifi.

Unfortunately Nintendo isn't like Street Fighter. They're not going to tweak and re-release Smash Bros Melee for the competitive players.

 

[Ciel~Image]

For the next Smash Bros. Sakurai should just make the game randomly decide a winner at the end of the match. That will give everyone an equal opportunity to feel good about themselves.

[Req] Adjustable hitstun % + "New" or "Classic" style airdodge setting in options menu.

...would that have been so hard?

If I wanted to feel good with my friends I'd just go get us some dr*gs. Anyway, winning or losing based on the game's random number generators isn't really that fun. Ask anyone who has suffered through a 2 hour Mario Party match and won all the minigames/made the best use of items only to end up in last place for some reason.

 

[firedragon_jing]

It's really pretty sad that he thinks this way.

I do get frustrated by things like "glass ceilings" which prevent me from being decent with characters I like, but those are all in my own head and have nothing to do with the game itself.

It's all well and good to consider a player who doesn't like losing and yet isn't very good, but the way to get them to rise above that is to take the time to "teach" the player how to play, or allow the player to teach himself. As a player reaches higher levels of gameplay, he'll get more into the game and in turn will have more fun with it.

Replays help with this. Training mode also helps with this. Forcing players to play almost all of the characters to get through SSE also helps, because by the time you're done with SSE you'll have a basic feel of all of the characters.

Random tripping and trivializing wins through unfairness do not help with this at all. In fact, they make it worse, because the player who is inclined to be depressed after a fair loss will feel even worse after an unfair loss.

So not only did this line of thinking mess with the Competitive community, but it also actually made things worse for the "one little guy" who gets upset after losing.

I could not agree with this more... this is the whole reason I get into competitive games, because I want to improve myself... I did this with Halo 2, before I came to college, I had hardly picked up an XBox controller, let alone really played any of the games. When I first played Halo, I couldn't control the camera, I was either looking down or looking up the entire game, and was a sitting duck with no kill count. Then everyone in my dorm would network their XBoxes and have 16 player matches, and I eventually learned to play well, and became one of the best players. A similar thing happened with Melee in high school, I would play it in my Sci-Fi club, and at first I was no match, but I continued playing till I could become competitive. This doesn't just go for fighters and shooters, but any game, multiplayer or single player, it doesn't matter. THe game needs to be challenging so the player strives to be better, but this doesn't mean it has to be so hard you want to throw your console into the TV, it just needs a happy balance, and Nintendo has been moving away from that recently while trying to apply to everyone as gamers...

Not saying Brawl is terrible or anything, I still love playing people in it, but I did like the feel of Melee better. I just hope the next Smash is ran by someone other than Sakurai...
This is a game that wants to be competitive, I know Japanese have a different feel on competitiveness, many want it even, but if you go to the arcades in Japan like I have, it is extremely competitive, I could not win once to anyone in Tekken, and I'm rather good at it at my campus arcade...

 

[Embrio]

In the heat of it all, I sometimes forget what I impose myself, and that's "everyone has their own opinion," the opinion in question being your view of SRK.

Anyways, your response was really mature, I honestly expected you or someone else to attack me for being so defensive about what you said.

When I look back at it now, I apologize for being so aggressive. I only took it to heart because I regular SRK myself.

I know what you mean though, but I hope you don't think every SRK user is like that, I know plenty of great NON flamers/trolls that regular SRK as well.

Again, sorry about that, thanks for the mature response.

No worries, didn't mean to generalize SRK or anything I was only basing my opinion off my own experience there which obviously wasnt very pleasent lol. Ciel~Image I have a better suggestion, how about we just drop the whole"fighting aspect" and just present images of cute chibi style portraits of disney characters to make everyone feel all warm and happy inside.

 

[plasmatorture]

Sold excellently? Sure. But the fans wouldn't have been as much as they are now. Think about how long Melee was out for, and how many people kept purchasing the game. Now, why did people keep purchasing the game? I'm pretty sure the majority didn't have the idea of "I'm missing a gamecube game, this seems fun." The competitiveness of Melee intrigued players and brought them into try it themselves, which grew and grew. Word of mouth, accidentally stumbling on a video on youtube, neighbors, friends, etc.

No, the vast, vast majority of Smash players are casual players who know nothing about the competitive community. I'm not sure how you could be so self-absorbed to believe that the kind of people who visit these boards are the majority of fans, but then I get surprised every day I read threads here.

 

[PredictablyStubborn]

mm..
Reading that makes me feel less angry at tripping and Sakurai.

At least he has some kind of explanation for it I guess. Better than what I thought was "LOLOLOL, competition is bad."

 

[LavisFiend]

I'd like to see Sakurai's sad face (if he does get sad) when he sees the game he spent so much time making get ignored by the community and left behind. While we play Melee!!!!

YEHS!

Kinda hard to get sad over a community that is basically 1% of sales.

 

[Hutsetsugen!]

Protip:





ENJOY THE GAME.

Stop making ridiculous threads about whether or not it's "competetive", unintentionally "competetive" or not. It just doesn't make any sense.

Ready?...
Spoiler:

Spoiler

VIDEO GAMES ARE COMPETETIVE.

And I honestly can't believe that half of you actually CARE what Gimpy has to say about Smash. Granted I'm not talking to all of you, but really, get your OWN life. It shouldn't matter what "some dude", let alone anyone else has to say about a game. Create your own perspective. And yet another spoiler:

Spoiler

Be an individual

. :D

/thread... and every other of the like.


GAME ****ING SET.

 

[b_rizzy86]

The hype is slowly but surely killing this game. After reading these boards since last summer, it seems that a lot of us still aren't really looking at Brawl as Brawl, but "Melee's sequel." Most of the problem I see is that people are still expecting for Brawl to be "better" than Melee, as opposed to just plain different from Melee.

Competitiveness is in the eye of the beholder. Advanced techs by themselves don't make a game competitive, but it's how you use them. I could consistently wavedash and l-cancel in melee, but I still got my *** handed to me consistently by my friend who couldn't do those things, because he was better than me with strategizing. And guess what? THAT is what drove me to practice harder. It doesn't matter if you know how to use a hammer if you always miss the nail... A true pro to me is someone who can take a limited set of tactics and still find ways to prevail.

 

[RedMage8BT]

This is the cancer that's killing /b/rawl

 

[LavisFiend]

I thought it was lung oriented. D=

 

[Sandwich]

This is the cancer that's killing /b/rawl

No. Just no.

 

[Adjudicator]

even tho at the end gimpy said "I'm not saying brawl isn't good and that sakurai is a big dumb dumb" I still feel he implied it...alot,and well I some what agree,but I just feel like every one is just saying "NO HE SHOULD HAVE MADE THE GAME THIS WAY,FORGET ABOUT MAKING A GAME FUN FOR EVERYONE I JUST WANNA BE ABLE TO COMBO AND WAVE DASH"

I can never understand this. Why wouldn't the game be fun for everyone if it has advanced options to combo & wave dash? Casuals don't give a **** about those options, they'd have loved it and had tons of fun anyway from the characters, pretty colors and mayhem.

Why not offer the OPTIONS?

 

[Wuzzy]

This is the cancer that's killing /b/rawl

No, just no.

 

[rockmace]

This is the cancer that's killing /b/rawl

This is so true here in SWF, as much as the competitiveness is the only correct way of playing melee 2.

Of course this sounds ******, but within this community can become a religious truth that there's no point in arguing back.

 

[Big Burn]

god brawl sucks....

 

[mario brawler]

You obviously didn't read about Sakurai's speech at GDC. He personally tweaked every single frame of every single attack until it was exactly the way he wanted it. Which makes me understand why he didn't want L-canceling to remain; after balancing all of those attacks against one another, watching that balance get ripped to shreds with the push of a button would just make me rage.

THANK YOU

I knew from the start SSBB wasn't gonna last, i've tried and tried but I just can't get into it. Its been sitting untouched for a week already.....hope melee gets repacked for Wii with wifi.

The simpe truth is Sak is the biggest ***got developer of all time.

dude...omg just leave,go play melee,just because you or a few hundred other poeple dont like brawl does'nt mean it's not a kick *** game,im so **** tired of all this complaining,you dont like brawl?go play melee but dont come here to whine about it cuz no one cares,just because sakurai made his game the way he entended it to be does'nt mean he's a ***got sheesh...

Protip:





ENJOY THE GAME.

Stop making ridiculous threads about whether or not it's "competetive", unintentionally "competetive" or not. It just doesn't make any sense.

Ready?...
Spoiler:

Spoiler

VIDEO GAMES ARE COMPETETIVE.

And I honestly can't believe that half of you actually CARE what Gimpy has to say about Smash. Granted I'm not talking to all of you, but really, get your OWN life. It shouldn't matter what "some dude", let alone anyone else has to say about a game. Create your own perspective. And yet another spoiler:

Spoiler

Be an individual

. :D

/thread... and every other of the like.


GAME ****ING SET.

THANK YOU TOO

god brawl sucks....

I seriously can not stop laughing,holy ****

I can never understand this. Why wouldn't the game be fun for everyone if it has advanced options to combo & wave dash? Casuals don't give a **** about those options, they'd have loved it and had tons of fun anyway from the characters, pretty colors and mayhem.

Why not offer the OPTIONS?

why not offer options?well I don't think sak liked how people changed melee into this super competitive game,and how they enjoyed it for different reasons than he intended,I think he just doesn't want people to play brawl at that crazy level melee was played at,I mean wave dashing was being used as a basic technique and to him it probably made everything look unnatural,I mean if he kept wave dashing that would sort of lead me to beleive it's intended,but wtf is it supposed to be as an actual action,it's a glitch,it's not the same as throwing a punch,it ****ing flying all over a stage,imagine if the guy who invented uh lemee see the T.V. all of a suden saw people using them as chairs -.-',but oh well im done here this thread makes me so depressed,plus all the flaming im gonna get and what's the point if 1 out of 10 poeple here are brawl supporters,while the rest are brawl flammers,I can't change your opinion...I just hope you'll find a way of actually enjoying this amazing game

 

[Embrio]

Brawler you seem insightful but the ultimate truth is that Brawl has hurt the credibility of the franchise amongst the hardcore fighting community. Every franchise has its black sheep and smash is no expcetion, in fact ill run down some other popular fighters to ilustrate me point.

Capcom: Capcom Fighting Evolution, Hyper Alpha

SNK: SNK VS Capcom Chaos, KOF 03

Namco: Tekken 4, Soul Caliibur 3

Smash brothers: Brawl

The simple truth is that brawl is just one of those "black sheep" that needs to be forgotten, maybe the 4th game will play more to the greatness that is melee and not this slow,stale and incredibly superficial brawl gameplay.

 

[Leahdybug]

Why does this game have to be like everything else. The man had a vision this game was his artwork and it got intrepreted in a way he didnt intend and that wasnt the message he wanted to give out. So he changed it. Good for him, if i didnt like it i'd sell it. The game is meant for fun, fun. That why he made it. Im having fun reguardless of techs. So if your not having fun move on. It entertainment thats all.

 

[alchfilosofer]

fail, that is plain stupid because brawl is ALREADY an best seller, has awesome ratings and if sell good for nintendo that would be an good game.

 

[Senshuu]

I thought this was something most people had already realized.

Just blew your miiiinds.

Brawl is what it is. (Brawl is great.) I still respect that man. A little (read: a lot) flaky towards competition, that's all. (I wonder if he got beat up...)

 

[Shadow Calibur]

I don't care what the hell Brawl was made for. I just want to play the game and be happy. And I am.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Even if Brawl wasn't meant for competitive play, it doesn't mean that it can't be done. Too bad that Melee is holding everyone back.

 

[Pikachu'sBlueWizardHat]

Brawler you seem insightful but the ultimate truth is that Brawl has hurt the credibility of the franchise amongst the hardcore fighting community. Every franchise has its black sheep and smash is no expcetion, in fact ill run down some other popular fighters to ilustrate me point.

Capcom: Capcom Fighting Evolution, Hyper Alpha

SNK: SNK VS Capcom Chaos, KOF 03

Namco: Tekken 4, Soul Caliibur 3

Smash brothers: Brawl

The simple truth is that brawl is just one of those "black sheep" that needs to be forgotten, maybe the 4th game will play more to the greatness that is melee and not this slow,stale and incredibly superficial brawl gameplay.

Fun fact: the Smash Bros. series are not real fighting games, like those others you mentioned. True fighting games are designed with fair, balanced competition in mind. Smash obviously was not. Just because people play 1v1 on Final Destination with no items, that doesn't make it on par with a Street Fighter game for instance.

Smash is a party game, and it should be played that way. That doesn't mean people won't go super hardcore with it, but those same people have no right to be surprised when the game reveals its true colors as a casual-oriented party game.

 

[Samochan]

It's a shame that Sakurai designed the game to be fun, but actually killed the long lasting fun for those 1% of competitive players, thus destroying his ideal of a game.

<_<

Like melee, brawl could've appealed to all audiences and sold even more, but it seems sakurai had a different idea in mind... Melee is still selling, I wonder how long brawl will last when everyone have had their "fun" with the game. <_<

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Enough of this ****.

 

[RedMage8BT]

He really didn't make the game appeal to more people with these additions, he just made it appeal MORE to n00bs who already love the game and less to the competitive players.

I can't believe Sakurai didn't realize the REAL reason why Melee had selling power for years.

 

[Senshuu]

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UvljN9ycqLg A serious fighting game franchise.

 

[billywill]

That made me cry