The Secret Tier List and Match Ups (Explanations included)

[asianaussie]

i dunno about everyone else, but i've had a lot more on my mind than what notation system we used for asinine matchups that nobody really cared too much about

i've always used even to advantage in my mind regardless

 

[The Star King]

That excuse is garbage. Having a lot on your mind right now is unrelated to remembering past events. Don't try to use the thinly-veiled "I have more of a life than you" rebuttal, that's ****-tier stuff right there. We used the notation for several months at least during discussions and you completely forgot.

I'm sorry if I'm being a dirk but like I said, my mind is being blown

 

[Izuhu]

We've always been using numbers, wtf?

 

[asianaussie]

yer you are being a dirk

>had a lot on my mind
>'right now' specifically not written in

i've had quite a bit to learn over the past year and a half, dearest star-chan, i've posted a lot on swf but i dont pay anywhere near as much attention as you do to this game or discussion concerning it (eg. the only post i have ever needed to 'construct' was that list of matchup guides which will never be released, plus the smash backroom doctrine rofl)

there were more biting lines here, but ill just say that since you were a proponent for the system, you'll remember it a lot better than others would

 

[The Star King]

"I've had a lot more on my mind than what notation system we used for asinine matchups that nobody really cared too much about" is referring to the current discussion (more specifically, your current recollection of what happened), and "I've had a lot more on my mind" in this sort of context implies in recent times. Don't even try to pretend that's not what you meant. Or at least worded it in a poor fashion that made it sound like you meant something else.

Jeez, first the back-handed stuff and then making me go into semantics. You're better than this.

Its significance honestly doesn't matter. The fact is that we specifically switched to it and used it for several months and you apparently have 0 memory of it. You are probably getting way too defensive about this. It's not a bad thing. I'm just amazed. This is being discussed way more than it should be.

P.S. I don't really "construct" my posts often either, and probably have done so less than you, not sure why being brought up

P.P.S. Your "idc about Smash, my 7k+ posts are of utter apathy blah blah" is getting really old :|

 

[asianaussie]

i literally dont remember when we switched notations, nor do i recall a specific system being used aside from in the backroom matchup threads, which aren't a thing anymore

your semantics argument isnt worth responding to

and the fact nobody in recent memory has used +1/2/3 just shows you care for the system significantly more than anyone else, really...people just use whatever system the discussion proponent used, which i think is perfectly natural

 

[Izuhu]

That whole argument was redundant, who really cares if people forgot the system. It doesn't change a thing. Whats more important are getting these MUs accurate since everybody seems to have their own opinion. ¬_¬

 

[The Star King]

i literally dont remember when we switched notations, nor do i recall a specific system being used aside from in the backroom matchup threads, which aren't a thing anymore

Uh yeah I obviously know that

your semantics argument isnt worth responding to

Because it wasn't worth bringing up, and I'm baffled you did.

and the fact nobody in recent memory has used +1/2/3 just shows you care for the system significantly more than anyone else, really...people just use whatever system the discussion proponent used, which i think is perfectly natural

I know that. You aren't arguing against anyone. I was just shocked nobody remembered a system used for several months, whether they cared for it or not. That's it. Nothing more. End of story. And you got defensive for some reason, when it was incredibly unnecessary. I'm gonna go ahead and blame you entirely for this asinine discussion

 

[asianaussie]

nah you took responsibility when you admitted you might be being a dirk

discussion it is

these are the matchups that will actually be played, and lower-tier character specialists can work their own matchups out

DL

Pika +2 Kirby
Pika +2 Fox
Pika +1 Falcon, maybe +0, depending on who you ask
Pika +2 Mario
Pika +2/+3 Yoshi

Kirby +2 Fox, maybe +1
Kirby +1 Falcon
Kirby +2 Mario
Kirby +2/3 Yoshi

Fox -1/2 Falcon
Fox +2 Mario
Fox +2 Yoshi idk

Falcon +2 Mario idk
Falcon +1 Yoshi

Mario +1 Yoshi idk (i dont really think it's yoshi advantage, im open to convincing though)

vanilla list with not much controversy

other rules:
jiggs is mediocre across the board
dk is fat
link is pretty good on hyrule but terrible on DL
luigi is terrible but maybe beats samus? idk that b-air is good
ness is not a thing

 

[Izuhu]

Mario +1 Yoshi idk (i dont really think it's yoshi advantage, im open to convincing though)

Erm..... I feel it needs to be +0.

 

[prisonchild]

yeah jiggs is weird (like mario), there doesn't seem to be any HUGE advantages one way or another in any matchup.

 

[Battlecow]

Thanks "bro", but if your talking "highest level play only" can you explain Isai making it to the finals of Apex using link against numerous top tier characters?

Dude it hurts when newcomers know more than people who are nominally part of the community

stop it dude, you're making me grimace

SK I remember the numbers, the numbers are cool

obligatory post on the silliness of AA/SK beef and thinly veiled references to how much better and mature than you I am and how I would never get involved in something so petty

 

[kys]

Funny, people that say "no johns" act like they never johnned before.

If you know your maximum potential, you can tell how well you're playing or not.

Spoiler

I can john if I want to, I don't even care if people john if I play them, people that care so much just take the game(or competition) too seriously.

The problem with "maximum potential" in a fighting game where another player is involved is that it ignores the other person. Your performance and the results of a match are affected as much by them as it is by you. That's why it's arrogant and a little inconsiderate to make it all about you.

 

[prisonchild]

The problem with "maximum potential" in a fighting game where another player is involved is that it ignores the other person. Your performance and the results of a match are affected as much by them as it is by you. That's why it's arrogant and a little inconsiderate to make it all about you.

yeah it's not only fighting games, it's in sports, board games and pretty much any type of competition. like in basketball once i was matched up against our uni's top player and he made me look like joel anthony with his defense. i was playing way below my usual standard but he was making me play that way

 

[Izuhu]

I feel that characters that don't have huge advantages over another and are hard to place on the tier list should be like on the same line in the list instead of having on above or below the other. Like so...

S
Char1

A
Char2
Char3

B
Char4
Char5, Char6
Char7
Char8

 

[ballin4life]

>>> is WAY too much, no character beats another THAT badly

I'm thinking >> is too much as it is, if you get beat that badly, that's your problem.

It's all relative. Basically take every matchup you would say is ">>" and now think of it as ">>>" and then now we just have to separate all of the ">"s from your system into "slight advantage (>)" and "moderate advantage (>>)"

Meh have you ever "played well" vs me WOTG?

I'll I ever hear when we play is that you're playing bad. Every single time we play. Ever.

lol

strong troll-fu from sheer lately

Pikachu vs Samus says Hi.
potentially Fox vs. Samus

Spoiler

(Lasers evryday)

or Falcon vs. Samus for similar reasons

What are you guy's opinions on Luigi vs Jiggs also I find that this might be that bad..might

Pika vs Samus and Falcon vs Samus are not that bad IMO

Dude we already used those numbers for a bit though, those number arguments already happened and apparently we cared enough to use them

Holy ****ing ****

You people's memories can't seriously be this bad. My mind is being blown right now. Am I the only sane one in this community?

Numbers are cool too. My point was just that there's a reason we had more than just 0, +1, and +2 on the numbers. And yes I remember the numbers btw, how could i forget the debate about Mario being +3 against Fox on DL?

That excuse is garbage. Having a lot on your mind right now is unrelated to remembering past events. Don't try to use the thinly-veiled "I have more of a life than you" rebuttal, that's ****-tier stuff right there. We used the notation for several months at least during discussions and you completely forgot.

I'm sorry if I'm being a dirk but like I said, my mind is being blown

SK someday you'll have a life and you'll understand. Although I'm not really sure AA has a life. Still in school? GTFO.

P.S. I don't really "construct" my posts often either, and probably have done so less than you, not sure why being brought up

P.P.S. Your "idc about Smash, my 7k+ posts are of utter apathy blah blah" is getting really old :|

The "constructing" posts thing is hilarious considering that aa has like all the longest posts in this forum and the BR (yeah I know that in reality you have 10 uber long posts and 7000 1 liners)

Also strong rebuttal of "lol u have 7k posts" haha

these are the matchups that will actually be played, and lower-tier character specialists can work their own matchups out

DL

Pika +2 Kirby
Pika +2 Fox
Pika +1 Falcon, maybe +0, depending on who you ask
Pika +2 Mario
Pika +2/+3 Yoshi

Kirby +2 Fox, maybe +1
Kirby +1 Falcon
Kirby +2 Mario
Kirby +2/3 Yoshi

Fox -1/2 Falcon
Fox +2 Mario
Fox +2 Yoshi idk

Falcon +2 Mario idk
Falcon +1 Yoshi

Mario +1 Yoshi idk (i dont really think it's yoshi advantage, im open to convincing though)

vanilla list with not much controversy

other rules:
jiggs is mediocre across the board
dk is fat
link is pretty good on hyrule but terrible on DL
luigi is terrible but maybe beats samus? idk that b-air is good
ness is not a thing

I think you've overrated pika a bit. like pika/falcon is 0 IMO. I think you've underrated Yoshi a bit too, like Mario/Yoshi is 0 or -1 (Yoshi advantage). Other than that though Mario underrated IMO. Yes I do think Yoshi is better than Fox or Falcon against Mario. deal with it.

Dude it hurts when newcomers know more than people who are nominally part of the community

stop it dude, you're making me grimace

SK I remember the numbers, the numbers are cool

obligatory post on the silliness of AA/SK beef and thinly veiled references to how much better and mature than you I am and how I would never get involved in something so petty

battlecow is the man

 

[The Star King]

SK I remember the numbers, the numbers are cool

And yes I remember the numbers btw, how could i forget the debate about Mario being +3 against Fox on DL?

Thank you. In conclusion, asianaussie is a pothead.

Numbers are cool too. My point was just that there's a reason we had more than just 0, +1, and +2 on the numbers.

Wut? Not sure why this is in response to my post?

SK someday you'll have a life and you'll understand. Although I'm not really sure AA has a life. Still in school? GTFO.

Having a life will give me a ****ty memory? O. But if you're not saying that then otherwise it doesn't matter whether I have a life or not. Read my post.

Don't be weak and support his irrelevant johns just because you relate. You're playing into his hands *sigh*

The "constructing" posts thing is hilarious considering that aa has like all the longest posts in this forum and the BR (yeah I know that in reality you have 10 uber long posts and 7000 1 liners)

Also strong rebuttal of "lol u have 7k posts" haha

So much this.

I think you've overrated pika a bit. like pika/falcon is 0 IMO. I think you've underrated Yoshi a bit too, like Mario/Yoshi is 0 or -1 (Yoshi advantage). Other than that though Mario underrated IMO. Yes I do think Yoshi is better than Fox or Falcon against Mario. deal with it.

Pika vs Falcon +1
Mario vs Yoshi -1

battlecow is the man

Yep.

 

[WOTG]

I like ">" better than numbers because it's very simple.

The problem with "maximum potential" in a fighting game where another player is involved is that it ignores the other person. Your performance and the results of a match are affected as much by them as it is by you. That's why it's arrogant and a little inconsiderate to make it all about you.

lol...so you don't refute my point, that basically people only can't stand johns because their arrogance/ego gets tainted. It's reverse psychology of people who make up johns because they can't handle defeat. And for the record, I don't fake john, if I see a issue preventing me to play as hard as I want to I sometimes state it. Usually more than usual now because I'm more social.

Spoiler

Everyone johns or has made some sort of john before, I'm even a witness to a handful of people, and if you say you haven't than you're a liar

And don't listen to Sheer, he's just being dum because I like to trashtalk now and he can't handle it.

 

[ballin4life]

Having a life will give me a ****ty memory? O. But if you're not saying that then otherwise it doesn't matter whether I have a life or not. Read my post.

When you're stressed out about **** or busy you tend to make a lot of dumb mistakes on other things. Not really that controversial or interesting.

Pika vs Falcon +1
Mario vs Yoshi -1

Interested on the Pika vs Falcon +1. Even on DL you think this is the case? Falcon on DL is one of the only times I can accept the "if he gets in it's over" argument.

 

[asianaussie]

i just meant constructing as in 'this takes more than one session to write'

i wrote the ruleset in like 20 minutes lol

 

[Battlecow]

I'm very anti-johns. The temptation is strong but I truly do think that even legit excuses are better left unstated... it opens up a door that's really hard to close, and it's actually amazing how fast none of your matches end up "mattering," for you and your opponent.

that said you should be allowed to **** around and not play your best sometimes. Which is why I'm a fan of friendly friendlies that are actually friendlies once in a while.

 

[SheerMadness]

Lol WOTG it's just funny that you're always johning when we play.

And then you get on smashboards and act like you'd pwn me if you're "playing well".

It's cute.

 

[WOTG]

Now you're just trolling.

As a matter of fact, be on later so I can pwn you, not kidding this time

 

[B Link]

sheer vs wotg...gonna have to say sheer's yoshi has a slight advantage but who knows.

 

[Surri-Sama]

WOTG should be able to win, just double jump :O

And lol at peopel saying johnz are only excuses...never had cold hands noobs?

EDIT: I suppose it really comes down to what your definition of "johnz" are. If they are simply excuses in the first place then NVM. But don't act there are not legit reasons someone could be doing worse then they should be.



Also, why does this thread exist lol

 

[B Link]

I care if players better than me john, cuz when I do well and they're like "meh wasn't trying" I'm like "wtf!!! I thought I was doing something right for once."

 

[Surri-Sama]

Yeah making excuses / not trying is actually annoying.

But there are legit reason someone cannot play well at any given time, without their choice.

 

[B Link]

fo sho

Anyway I really wanna see this wotg vs sheer match in action, exciting stuff

 

[The Star King]

It's annoying on both ends though. It's annoying when I want to fool around (i.e. always) in friendlies so I do so, and then people are like "OMG I beat u I r better! u aren't even that good bro" But yeah for seriouslies no johns.

 

[TANK64]

WOTG should go to the Tampa tomorrow to play Sheer on console.

Recorded.

Uploaded on TANK's channel.

 

[Surri-Sama]

It's annoying on both ends though. It's annoying when I want to fool around (i.e. always) in friendlies so I do so, and then people are like "OMG I beat u I r better! u aren't even that good bro" But yeah for seriouslies no johns.

Why would this be annoying for you. I imagine the only people who'd honestly think such things are kaillera scrubs.

It's bad for those on the reviving end for reasons B link stated. We need to play better players who are trying in order to get better ourselves. Sometimes i feel like that's the reason some of the better players don't "try". Coughisaicough

Spoiler

 

[RickySSB]

Thats why I hate smash sometimes.

 

[The Star King]

Why would this be annoying for you. I imagine the only people who'd honestly think such things are kaillera scrubs.

It's bad for those on the reviving end for reasons B link stated. We need to play better players who are trying in order to get better ourselves. Sometimes i feel like that's the reason some of the better players don't "try". Coughisaicough

Spoiler

Well hypothetically speaking. It can still happen to me to a lesser extent, like "this guy is good but not as good as other people think".

Also Isai tries. He might pick lesser characters but he tries with that character. Don't be dumb dude.

 

[Battlecow]

Not always

see him vs Alancitu

 

[Surri-Sama]

Well hypothetically speaking. It can still happen to me to a lesser extent, like "this guy is good but not as good as other people think".

Also Isai tries. He might pick lesser characters but he tries with that character. Don't be dumb dude.

The isai part was mostly a joke, you REALLY hate me eh? xD

And yeah i know it can happen to you, i didn't mean to say anything condescending in that regard. I just mean the people who are of higher skill who you beat are not really underestimating you to any real degree that are they?

Most people think you are really good as far as i can tell.

 

[kys]

I had a nice long post, but it got deleted. Crap.

In a nutshell, I never should have said "johns" because I wasn't really talking about them and now it took the thread in a whole new direction.

All I wanted to say, because wotg seems to keep ignoring it, is that your "potential" is affected by the other player. They make up 50% of the match. No single person is the master and commander of the smash world, where every match hangs on the balance of whether or not they're "in the zone" that day. Except Isai. It's a little different than johns.

But you folks covered for me pretty well so no biggie.

Surri cold hands johns are not legit because you could always ask for a warmup. Lag johns are the only legit johns. That, and keyboard cheater johns

 

[WOTG]

sheer vs wotg...gonna have to say sheer's yoshi has a slight advantage but who knows.

Parries and shield breaks are a b****

But there are legit reason someone cannot play well at any given time, without their choice.

Thank you.

fo sho

Anyway I really wanna see this wotg vs sheer match in action, exciting stuff

Sorry bud, p2p only, and I don't record anymore.

It's annoying on both ends though. It's annoying when I want to fool around (i.e. always) in friendlies so I do so, and then people are like "OMG I beat u I r better! u aren't even that good bro" But yeah for seriouslies no johns.

That's why I usually try to avoid egotards, but when you play randoms its hard to tell

WOTG should go to the Tampa tomorrow to play Sheer on console.

Recorded.

Uploaded on TANK's channel.

I don't live in Florida anymore

Well hypothetically speaking. It can still happen to me to a lesser extent, like "this guy is good but not as good as other people think".

Also Isai tries. He might pick lesser characters but he tries with that character. Don't be dumb dude.

I seen Isai "sandbag" a few times on stream.

 

[The Star King]

The isai part was mostly a joke, you REALLY hate me eh? xD

Well, I took you seriously because I remembered you complaining about Isai using Link at Apex and saying he "wasn't trying" when he did try, after the character select screen anyways.

Not always

see him vs Alancitu

I seen Isai "sandbag" a few times on stream.

I meant he does in tournament, and generally, not necessarily always. Of course he doesn't go tryhard 100% of the time he's playing the game. If you do that you're a weirdo.

See my response to Surri. I mostly had Apex in mind when I said that. Back then Surri said he didn't try because he picked low tiers, but I'm saying he tried with the characters he picked, at least.

 

[clubbadubba]

man people have really been blabbering on about nothing in particular lately. It is too much to read, lets be more concise.

cold hands = most legit excuse of all time, impossible to do anything (warm water=ez fix)

 

[Krynxe]

troll thread