• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

The Royal Flush discussion thread

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
196
Does Mr E sucks against Ness or Ness players don't share things about the Marcina MU?
Well to be fair this isn't Brawl haha. Still a surprising result though, I still have it pegged as one of his worse MUs but yeah not a complete blowout. Just really damn difficult. And yes the set with Pink Fresh was on stream, it's fair to say TGG was all over him and importantly, he wasn't dying to ladder stuff. Yet he also wasn't doing anything particularly crazy, very bare-bones Ness play but he was making it work. I think Pink Fresh was letting him get away with some things he perhaps shouldn't have and there were definitely some opportunities for a free gimp he passed up, but I will need to rewatch the set with fresh eyes before I start pulling any conclusions.
Ness in top 8 is pretty cool, haven't seen that for a while outside of Europe. Praise be the back throw and props to TGG.

Don't sleep on Ness people :]

Does anyone know if TGG vs Mr. E was recorded? Would be very curious to see exactly how that went.
--
EDIT @ Yonder it was 3-1 to ZeRo but the score doesn't do justice to the quality of the gameplay.
 
Last edited:

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,634
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
I'm crazy and go one step further and say it's a slight advantage for Ness. Not just because of this but we've had a few top level Ness wins over Bayonetta of the top of my head FOW vs Saj and FOW vs Zack and also SS vs Zack. FOW was ranked over JK when he was still super active in Vegas indicated atleast a even record with him. I wanna see it played more since Gonz did lose to Zack today and FOW was eliminated from Civil War by 9B but it's probably a even MU now but can potentially lean in Ness' favor with some more data (which I think it will). If that happens I don't see a resurgence in Ness' popularity since he's not really a character you secondary often.
Ikep defeated taranito a while back and 9B defeated Gackt, so I'll say it has been going back and forth. I think Ness' attributes make it a MU that cannot be losing, kinda like the Fox MU. Hopefully, Ness players can figure out more MUs in the near future, like Mewtwo, this MU has been lost too much to be true. Progress with Sheik and Marcina exist at least...
 

valakmtnsmash4

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 27, 2015
Messages
708
NNID
yathshiv
Well to be fair this isn't Brawl haha. Still a surprising result though, I still have it pegged as one of his worse MUs but yeah not a complete blowout. Just really damn difficult. And yes the set with Pink Fresh was on stream, it's fair to say TGG was all over him and importantly, he wasn't dying to ladder stuff. Yet he also wasn't doing anything particularly crazy, very bare-bones Ness play but he was making it work. I think Pink Fresh was letting him get away with some things he perhaps shouldn't have and there were definitely some opportunities for a free gimp he passed up, but I will need to rewatch the set with fresh eyes before I start pulling any conclusions.
Ness in top 8 is pretty cool, haven't seen that for a while outside of Europe. Praise be the back throw and props to TGG.

Don't sleep on Ness people :]

Does anyone know if TGG vs Mr. E was recorded? Would be very curious to see exactly how that went.
--
EDIT @ Yonder it was 3-1 to ZeRo but the score doesn't do justice to the quality of the gameplay.
It was recorded and it was an entertaining set on stream. I think the VODS should be up soon
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,348
Can I get the outcome to that Zero vs Wadi match? Sounds like something big happened...I didn't watch it but I'm rooting for Wadi to win the tourney so.
WaDi proved the Diddy matchup wasn't that free Game 1 but ZeRo bounced back in subsequent games. Feels like M2's biggest strength in that matchup is how slippery he is and how his pokes keep Diddy at bay. He had to play rather defensively which for once kind of worked against ZeRo (not to mention WaDi employed some pretty janky tricks such as reverse Confusion on thrown Banana peels).

The second post is referencing how ZeRo coached Nairo when he went up against Zinoto. No such thing as honor between mains when it comes to him lol.
 
Last edited:

|RK|

Smash Marketer
Moderator
Joined
Jan 6, 2009
Messages
4,033
Location
Maryland
ZeRo is a traitor to all Diddies everywhere

Also, IcyMist :4samus: 3-2 Sandstorm :4ryu:

Who on earth is Sandstorm?

EDIT: The Great Gonzales :4ness: 3-2 Mr. E :4marth: :4lucina:
Lol, I played Sandstorm in friendlies last night. Considering I played like, a million matches with Venom the other day, I thought the experience would be enough for me to do well... But no, he's a very good Ryu in his own right. Crazy

EDIT: He specifically told me his goal was to make it to top 32 winners. He did very well for himself today.
 
Last edited:

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
i really do not think that analyzing zack's record vs ness has much value that can be extrapolated to how bayo should perform vs ness. he appears to be overall just absolutely garbage at the matchup, even to the extent where he has dropped games vs solar and sage. he also lost a set to ss at midwest mayhem saga, and lost to fow at zero saga. i think that zack's aggressive style clashes with how you are supposed to play to beat ness, putting him in lots of situations where he gets caught with a risky landing option or trades with ness. he also seems not to not really know how to edgeguard ness for whatever reason. in general, bayo's record vs ness is quite solid, including a solid 3-1 by 9b over fow at civil war and a 2-0 record of ikep against taranito. we haven't really seen salem interact with top ness so we don't necessarily know how he performs in that matchup, but i think most things point toward ness being a zack problem rather than a bayo problem. having good hitboxes and damage output do give ness some potential to do decently against bayo, but ultimately you still run into the fact that it's hard for ness to catch bayo if she plays properly, and the offstage situations are outright oppressive. i think if you ignore edgeguarding, ness vs bayo is an even matchup, but the edge slides to bayo when you consider just how difficult it is (or at least should be) for ness to recover in the matchup.
 

PK Bash

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
196
For what it's worth I must disagree with the notion that Zack plays the MU badly. He could play it better of course but in the VODs you showed of him playing the matchup I feel he lost the one game to Solar due to a lapse of mentality (not to mention Solar was actually playing fairly well and making some good calls. Zack was underestimating him that game 2) and Sage due to a tech error. I don't see how he is "garbage" at the MU regardless. He doesn't recklessly challenge Ness' aerials, plays around the grab well and is very very careful around Ness' shield. He has the knowledge, the mistakes come because as you say he is generally aggressively-minded and is more prone to overextension than someone like 9B, as well as often failing to edgeguard Ness properly.
FWIW He went 3-0 against FOW at ZeRo Saga but he was actually going toe-to-toe with him, FOW wasn't really running away with it.

I love the set of FOW vs 9B. 9B played the matchup better than FOW. He was just out-neutralling and out-footsie-ing FOW consistently and for the first two games FOW was just getting hit by everything. The thing about FOW is he doesn't play character matchups and instead focuses on player vs player mental battle and makes his opponents crumble by fearing Ness. That's what I see in the way he plays anyway. He does generally come unstuck when he fights mental fortresses like ZeRo, Dabuz and often Japanese players. He just wasn't respecting Bayo enough and 9B was definitely respecting Ness, although not excessively so.

Just want to play devil's advocate to your later point while I'm here. It may be hard for Ness to level against Bayonetta if Bayonetta is playing properly, but there is of course also the slim chance that the Ness is playing properly too! Crazy! If Ness gets a lead how does Bayonetta take it back? Her best chance would probably be going for a gimp, but if Ness has a lead she's clearly taken a few dangerous hits, is mentally shaken as a result and probably lacks the confidence in the gimp. And if you hesitate, you die instead.
Planking doesn't really work on Ness either. I know there was a discussion on it a little while back but I don't know if that was ascertained or not.

Not trying to say Ness is a counter to Bayonetta or anything, I just don't agree with your assessment of Zack vs Ness wholesale. To be fair 9B plays it better, but Zack doesn't play it badly by any stretch and there are some useful conclusions to draw from his play.

I agree with what I think your main point is though. Generally I encourage everyone to not jump to any conclusions based on Zack vs FOW or Pink Fresh vs Gonzales or whatever.

-----
I also agree that edgeguarding Ness is super important and people do give his recovery far too much respect. You usually want to wait until he commits to his double jump, PK Thunder or an airdodge because if he hits you with an aerial he'll probably make it back and could reverse the situation. If you make an offstage presence Ness will be scared and will go into "panic PK Thunder mode". When he's this scared you'll know when the PK Thunder and/or the double jump is coming because he will be wanting to get back to that ledge as soon as possible and he knows his recovery is limited. But most important is to have faith in the gimp. Ness' recovery is not very flexible at all and extremely vulnerable. If he's recovering diagonally up (most do), airdodge through him, any other angle you will probably have enough time to hit him before PKT2 if you've established an offstage presence and are confident.
Obviously his double jump is pretty free offstage too if you stay out of range of DJ Fair. If you hit him out of his double jump you can basically guarantee he will go for the easiest PKT angle.
Have confidence, don't hesitate and it's really not that hard. Play to learn, don't play to win all the time.
You now have no excuse. You're welcome.
 
Last edited:

Das Koopa

Smash Master
Writing Team
Joined
Jun 13, 2014
Messages
3,728
Location
Texas
NNID
NebulaMan
3DS FC
2938-7117-6800
predictions

ZeRo 3-1 SuperGirlKels
Mr. R 3-2 Tweek

WaDi 3-0 The Great Gonzales
Nairo 3-2 VoiD
 

Illuminose

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 6, 2015
Messages
671
zero 3-2 sgk (he seems to have random game 5s with sonic players)
mr.r 3-1 tweek

wadi 3-2 the great gonzales
void 3-1 nairo
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,348
I wouldn't be surprised to see SuperGirlKels get the upset on ZeRo actually.

She's been playing incredibly on point this entire tournament. It's the most impressive Sonic play I've seen from the west in... well, kinda forever.
 
Last edited:

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
And there we see how Bayo planking doesn't actually work against Diddy. Peanuts shredded it, gave ZeRo the percent lead, and forced Zack to approach.

(Doubles Grand Finals is here: https://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp)

EDIT: The Great Gonzales :4ness: 3-0 WaDi :4mewtwo: :4rob:
 
Last edited:

Finh009

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jun 10, 2016
Messages
143
Location
Hidden Village
NNID
Finh009
The Great Gonzales :4ness: 3-0 WaDi :4mewtwo::4rob:

Not gonna lie, I wasn't expecting this.
 
Last edited:

Pyrover

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
56
Gonzales :4ness:3-0 > WaDi :4mewtwo::4rob:

Let's go Ness!

Those down smashes were game changing.
 
Last edited:

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
I died a little inside when I saw WaDi's Mewtwo get grabbed at 89 and die to the back throw
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Gonzales is playing the most basic Ness Ive seen and its doing him so well, his reads and his execution is flawless I defeintly was not expecting him to beat WaDi when he has so much Ness experience but a 3-0 and made him switch off Mewtwo? Amazing.
 

Vyrnx

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 11, 2014
Messages
639
Location
KY/NC
Nairo's usmash misinput cost him the set, if he'd gotten the uair it was over (in traditional Void Nairo fashion).
 
Last edited:

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
2,332
Location
South America
NNID
MontanaCity
>Not banning Final Destination against Sheik if you're using Marcina.
Stop.
He lost there set there.
On Game 2, 1-0 in his advantage. But tbh that's where he lost.
Going FD against Sheik if you're playing Marcina is asking to get 70-80% on you every time you lose neutral.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,634
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
>Not banning Final Destination against Sheik if you're using Marcina.
Stop.
He lost there set there.
On Game 2, 1-0 in his advantage. But tbh that's where he lost.
Going FD against Sheik if you're playing Marcina is asking to get 70-80% on you every time you lose neutral.
What would be good stages against Sheik for Marcina then? Want to know.


EDIT: That Homing Attack why?!
 
Last edited:

Pyrover

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 2, 2017
Messages
56
Zero :4diddy: 3-1 > SuperGirlKels :4sonic:

Super close set. If not for that SD in game 3, she might have been able to take this.
 

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
2,332
Location
South America
NNID
MontanaCity
What would be good stages against Sheik for Marcina then? Want to know.


EDIT: That Homing Attack why?!
Not FD
You need to play a specific style of Marcina for FD to not straight up be your worst stage against any character in the first place. Against people like Sheik you're just begging to get your disadvantage state abused to a ridiculous extent. This always happens. Leo vs. Void also shows this. I think it was on ZeRo saga where Void won 3-2 against him and one of the games was on FD. Leo did stale sour up air against Sheik at very low percent, which actually managed to be unsafe on hit, then Void recovered and did a 79% combo on him which was the very reason he won the game, since he was playing from quite some distance behind.

BF and Lylat are great stages for Marcina. SV, T&C and DL are still pretty good but they all do have some annoying quirks for Marcina (can still be hard to land on SV, T&C goes flat sometimes and DL screws up your spacing but that's much more of an issue with Marth than it is for Lucina).
FD? FD is just a gamble. You lose platform pressure and that's an *amazing* asset of Marcina. They also have terrible landing options and pretty bad disadvantage in general and FD doesn't help that in the slightest.
Meanwhile you can ledge trap and catch landings far better on FD yourself, though. Your ledge options because slightly more streamlined since you don't have platforms to mix up if you go jump and it's hard to land and Marcina gets a ton off caught landings. DB is free tool to catch anything in this game already. I actually go on FD against Rosa for example.
The problem with going FD against Sheik is because she's just going to constantly **** on anything you will try to do that resembles a neutral and you are going to cry whenever you enter disadvantage. It's very hard to win neutral against her on that stage and those needles and that frame data with the big limbs really make that difficult. Even if you get advantage against her? She can escape that relatively easy, atleast compared to how you can escape it.

TLDR Going FD against Sheik using Marcina is terrible idea almost always unless you're really willing to make the gamble.
 

TDK

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 11, 2015
Messages
3,717
Location
British Columbia
NNID
GrayCN
DK looks like a decent CP to Mr. R. Tweek hasn't died under 170 with DK in this set yet.

EDIT: Died at 136% to a bouncing fish. Regardless, you cannot have DK living this long.
 
Last edited:

FamilyTeam

This strength serves more than me alone.
Joined
Nov 15, 2015
Messages
2,332
Location
South America
NNID
MontanaCity
And then immediatly after that he started killing as early as Void usually does.
Good job, Ramin!
 

Envoy of Chaos

Smash Ace
Joined
May 9, 2016
Messages
737
Location
Rock Hill, SC
Ah man Gonz did so well today, three PGR wins in a row and a 5th place finish at a really stacked tournament good job to him, glad he got to get some exposure he's been doing very well in his region for a while. Hopefully we can see more Ness mains go to stuff in the future and show people that the kid still has it.
 

NotLiquid

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 14, 2014
Messages
1,348
... Tweek has a Bayonetta pocket?

Even without Zack and Fresh we somehow get a Bayo in Top 8.
 

L9999

Smash Champion
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
Messages
2,634
Location
the attic I call Magicant
3DS FC
3780-9480-2428
Ah man Gonz did so well today, three PGR wins in a row and a 5th place finish at a really stacked tournament good job to him, glad he got to get some exposure he's been doing very well in his region for a while. Hopefully we can see more Ness mains go to stuff in the future and show people that the kid still has it.
Gonzalez promoted to tier 1 Ness as far as I am concerned (not that he has competititon).
 
Top Bottom