The Reason Why Sheik's Absence in Twilight Princess Means NOTHING

[GamenerdAdvance]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sheik briefly shown for a few seconds at the end of an E for All video?

 

[Thirdkoopa]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sheik briefly shown for a few seconds at the end of an E for All video?

No, It was just a reel in the end of it that replayed.

BTW To the thread maker, PM And Young link can still be there own characters, The developers are creative enough to think of a plot, But Shiek is still not getting her own seperate slot.

 

[ShadowLink84]

okaythere.

Most likely sheik would have to remain in the game mostly due to the pic involved.

twilight change=Sheik/Midna
Possibly Midna is of the Twilight realm and it would make sense.
I am unsure however because it would seem inconsistent as to why midna would be a transformation for Zelda.

 

[Brasil]

I'm sorry but internal logical consistency is not restricted to literary works, it's a functional requirement in all storytelling mediums.

No, he said that Brawl's storyline required internal logical consistency, since it's a storytelling medium, however, he pointed out that it is not required to be consistent with LoZ's storyline. In other words, Brawl's internal logical consistency is not dependant on being consistent with LoZ. Merely being consistent with itself.

You misread, maintaining consistency with LoZ is not the same as maintaining internal consistency and narrative cohesion.

Aye, but here's the catch: Brawl's storyline does not functionally require any kind of internal logical consistency, because for all intents and purposes, it's fan-fiction-on-acid. And since it's fan-fiction-on-acid, expecting/looking for/wanting/believing there to be/etc any kind of internal logical consistency is asinine and foolish.

If we were looking at The Terminator, then we could absolutely talk about internal logical consistency. 2001: Space Odyssey, as well. Same even goes for Star Wars. Even Melville's Moby ****. But why those and not Smash Bros? Because Smash Bros will never have an original storyline with original characters that weren't directly lifted from 12 other "works." The "story" in Smash is a cluster**** hammered together to clumsily involve a whole bunch of unrelated characters. You're never going to rationally expect internal logical consistency there.

Regarding the bits about LoZ consistency, I hadn't mis-read anything. The OP was saying Brawl is inconsistent when it helped his pro-Sheik argument, and then he was saying Brawl is consistent, also when it helped his pro-Sheik argument. Go back and read through it again. It basically went like this: Sheik is in Brawl because Smash Bros is not consistent with other game canon as shown by these items (this claim is actually very simplistic and misguided); and Sheik is in Brawl because Smash Bros is consistent with itself (another simplistic and misguided claim because Smash Bros has never been rational, story-wise).

On top of that, he had gotten it backwards.

Brawl is consistent with LoZ where it matters: the characters. Like I had said in a previous post, the little details he pointed out are irrelevant when we look at the characters themselves. And when you look at the characters themselves, we see Twilight Princess everywhere. The look. The moves. The developer approach. Ocarina of Time is dead. Twilight Princess is the new template. The current game in any franchise has always dictated how the characters look. It's been like that since Smash 64.

Then on the other side of the consistency argument, Brawl is not consistent in terms of its own internal storyline. So there's no narrative strength there. There's no internal logical consistency you could expect or demand. And therefore, there's no reasonable argument you could make that Sheik will be Zelda's transformation...especially if you're trying to say Brawl will have any kind of logical consistency in its storyline.

It happens all the time in storytelling mediums, suspension of disbelief.

That suspension of disbelief doesn't really apply to Brawl, though. We go into a Smash Bros game knowing it's going to be totally screwed-up. We know it's going to be totally screwed-up because Smash Bros' claim to fame is these mascot-filled rosters with a wacky storyline weakly tying it all together. "Going with" Brawl's SSE mode is not willingly suspending your disbelief; it's actually nothing more than acknowledging Smash Bros has a truly random, nonsensical approach. You don't need to suspend your disbelief when you see Diddy Kong and Fox fighting Rayquaza. Because that's the kind of game Smash Bros has always been: insane franchise cross-overs.

If you want to talk about willingly suspending your disbelief, that only happens when the work in question has created its own world and characters from scratch. Like The Terminator or Moby ****.

But, internal consistency is still key to any good narrative.

But Brawl has no narrative whatsoever. It's got crazy-arse cross-over fan-fiction feebly connecting the characters together in a manner that ultimately is going to become completely interchangeable anyway.

You dig?

 

[Billy Kong]

Okay, I'm tired of people saying that because Link and Zelda have their Twilight Princess models in Brawl, and the fact that Sheik is not in Twilight Princess, Sheik will not be in Brawl. Some people think it will mess up everything canon. I'll explain why all of this mean absolutely NOTHING.

Firstly, Super Smash Bros. games are not canon. Therefor, anything can happen and it won't have any affect whatsoever on the actual game story.

Second, consistency is not important in Super Smash Bros. Even though almost everything Zelda-related in Brawl if in Twilight Princess form, including Link, Zelda, Bridge of Eldin, and the Heart Container, there are still references to other Zelda games.

For example, the Temple stage based on Zelda II is back. A Deku Nut, an item only in Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask, is now an item in Brawl. Zelda still has her Ocarina of Time spells; Nayru's Love, Din's Fire, and Farore's Wind.

And then there's this:

Notice Zelda does NOT wear a headdress in Twilight Princess. This is the same Kirby hat from Melee, straight from young Zelda from Ocarina of Time.

However, as most of you probably know by know, there has been a leak that states Zelda's Down Special is, roughly translated from Japanese, "Twilight Change (Original Twilight version of Sheik transformation)".

Now, many people think this mean Zelda's "Sheik" form will be replaced by "cloaked Zelda" from Twilight Princess with a similar moveset.

As this does sound like a good idea, this does not mean that Sheik as we know him/her/it/potato will be gone. Sheik will definitely get a makeover, but I very much doubt that he/she/it/potato will be replaced with "cloaked Zelda". I can see the new Sheik having a similar look, but definitely not just a cloaked Zelda. There is evidence to support this "cloaked Zelda" replacement, though.

If you've played Twilight Princess, you may have noticed a symbol on the back of Zelda's cloak. This symol is, indeed, the symbol of the Sheikah race, of which Sheik is supposed to be part of. (Sheik is not really a Sheikah; she is just Zelda in costume taking the form of a Sheik. Thus, Sheik is actually Hylian.)

So, there is a small reference to the Sheikah (including Impaz, supposedly the last remaining Sheikah), and one could say it also refers to Sheik. However you see it, it doesn't matter. Sheik does not have to be in Twilight Princess for her (I'm just gonna stop using he/she/it/potato) to be in Brawl.

One last thing. Many people think that it might be a good idea to make Sheik a separate character from Zelda. This cannot be, though. And I can prove it with two words: SubSpace Emissary.

Even though Smash Bros is not canon to other games, it should have it's own canon story. What would happen when Zelda comes across herself in costume in Adventure Mode?! Chaos, that's what. Even though Smash Bros. in general doesn't make much sense, a unique and original story should. This is why Dr. Mario is going to be removed (and if you think otherwise, someone needs to slap some sense into you.) This is also why Paper Mario (a character that I once supported until I thought about Adventure Mode) has a very slim chance. Maybe another Paper Mario character will get in, but not Mario himself. Two Marios = wrong.

In the case of Young Link, though (assuming he comes back as cel-shaded Link), he is a completely different character. Young Link from Melee was the same Link from a different time. This new Link, however, would be totally different from the Twilight Princess Link. They are completely different people, from two different times and places. I can see a time travel-related event happening in Adventure Mode causing them to meet.

Anyway, this is why Sheik cannot be her own individual character.

In conclusion, Sheik is definitely returning, and she is very likely to be Twilight Princess-esque, possibly similar to "cloaked Zelda", but not the same.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Aye, but here's the catch: Brawl's storyline does not functionally require any kind of internal logical consistency, because for all intents and purposes, it's fan-fiction-on-acid. And since it's fan-fiction-on-acid, expecting/looking for/wanting/believing there to be/etc any kind of internal logical consistency is asinine and foolish.

Why? Why is it illogical for fanfiction on acid to have internal logical consistency?

Sure it's built to tie characters together that are initially unrelated, but that doesn't mean it can't have consistent rules for how it plays.

If we were looking at The Terminator, then we could absolutely talk about internal logical consistency. 2001: Space Odyssey, as well. Same even goes for Star Wars. Even Melville's Moby ****. But why those and not Smash Bros? Because Smash Bros will never have an original storyline with original characters that weren't directly lifted from 12 other "works." The "story" in Smash is a cluster**** hammered together to clumsily involve a whole bunch of unrelated characters. You're never going to rationally expect internal logical consistency there.

Well up until now, we had no indications of what the storyline actually is beyond dolls/action figures being animated and coming to life.

That's internally consistent, no substance, but still consistent.

Now they have an actual backstory and plot, which by all indications is consistent with the premise of these random action figures being "alive" and doing battle.

Where's the internal inconsistency?! I don't see any.

Regarding the bits about LoZ consistency, I hadn't mis-read anything. The OP was saying Brawl is inconsistent when it helped his pro-Sheik argument, and then he was saying Brawl is consistent, also when it helped his pro-Sheik argument. Go back and read through it again. It basically went like this: Sheik is in Brawl because Smash Bros is not consistent with other game canon as shown by these items (this claim is actually very simplistic and misguided); and Sheik is in Brawl because Smash Bros is consistent with itself (another simplistic and misguided claim because Smash Bros has never been rational, story-wise).

Not being consistent with other game's cannon says nothing about internal consistency. LoZ is not part of Super Smash Brothers Brawl's internal narrative, therefore consistency with it has nothing to do with Brawl's internal consistency.

SSB has never been deep, but it's been internally consistent.

Brawl is consistent with LoZ where it matters: the characters. Like I had said in a previous post, the little details he pointed out are irrelevant when we look at the characters themselves. And when you look at the characters themselves, we see Twilight Princess everywhere. The look. The moves. The developer approach. Ocarina of Time is dead. Twilight Princess is the new template. The current game in any franchise has always dictated how the characters look. It's been like that since Smash 64.

It's consistent in regards to the characters with one caveat. If there were multiple incarnations of the character, the Super Smash Brothers incarnation is representative of every incarnation. Take a look at Link's entrance, I don't remember that in TP, but it is in another LoZ game...

Melee was the same way, they separated Link and young link, yet both Links were able to use hookshot, boomerang, Bow and arrows (and I don't know what you guys think, but it is my opinion that Link's arrows looked like the silver arrows, not the light arrows), and bombs, of which only the bombs could be used by both, the arrows and hookshot could only be used by regular link, and the boomerang could only be used by Young Link? Unless we assume that they both represent all incarnations of the character Link, there is no character consistency.

Then on the other side of the consistency argument, Brawl is not consistent in terms of its own internal storyline. So there's no narrative strength there. There's no internal logical consistency you could expect or demand. And therefore, there's no reasonable argument you could make that Sheik will be Zelda's transformation...especially if you're trying to say Brawl will have any kind of logical consistency in its storyline.

Again, how so? Where does Brawl contradict itself? Not other narratives, ITSELF!

Zelda turning into Sheik does not contradict itself if it is established that all like characters represent all incarnations within the franchise. Since by all indications it is, there is no internal inconsistency.

That suspension of disbelief doesn't really apply to Brawl, though. We go into a Smash Bros game knowing it's going to be totally screwed-up. We know it's going to be totally screwed-up because Smash Bros' claim to fame is these mascot-filled rosters with a wacky storyline weakly tying it all together. "Going with" Brawl's SSE mode is not willingly suspending your disbelief; it's actually nothing more than acknowledging Smash Bros has a truly random, nonsensical approach. You don't need to suspend your disbelief when you see Diddy Kong and Fox fighting Rayquaza. Because that's the kind of game Smash Bros has always been: insane franchise cross-overs.

Again, why do cross-overs make it INTERNALLY inconsistent?

If it acknowledged the other games as part of it's own cannon and said that those individuals were one and the same as those that appear in Brawl, then yes, that would be internally inconsistent. But... they don't. These are action figures, brought to life. They have no direct link to the actual Zelda, or Link, or Mario as far as the storyline goes, so there is no need to maintain consistency with the other franchises.

If you want to talk about willingly suspending your disbelief, that only happens when the work in question has created its own world and characters from scratch. Like The Terminator or Moby ****.

Uhhh....

It's essentially to all storytelling except non-fiction.

But Brawl has no narrative whatsoever. It's got crazy-arse cross-over fan-fiction feebly connecting the characters together in a manner that ultimately is going to become completely interchangeable anyway.

I'm sorry, but fan-fiction is no different from any other work of the medium with the exception that it's generally much poorer in quality and the person did not create the original work.

You're incorrect.

 

[Reyairia]

Haha, seriously.
We have no idea how the plot is going to work out.
Debating on how consistent or random it is is totally pointless, as both of you have no fricken' clues. None of us do.

I don't see the return of Shiek as unlikely.
Just unnecessary.

I agree.

 

[S_B]

Zelda will transform into Ganondorf-possessed Zelda from the TP boss battle.

Or maybe she'll don the cloak that she was wearing in TP and that will be her Shiek-like form.

 

[vesperview]

I don't see the return of Shiek as unlikely.
Just unnecessary.

QFT!

vesperview, you're an a-hole or saying that

okaythere.

Most likely sheik would have to remain in the game mostly due to the pic involved.

twilight change=Sheik/Midna
Possibly Midna is of the Twilight realm and it would make sense.
I am unsure however because it would seem inconsistent as to why midna would be a transformation for Zelda.

How would it make sense for Zelda to turn into Midna? It makes more sense for her to turn into Sheik even if Sheik isn't in TP.

 

[Shuma]

I like this thread, it makes me ROFL in my pants.


"AHAHAHAHA"

 

[InvincibleAgent]

I'm calling it, Zelda will turn into Tetra, not Sheik.

 

[Titan05]

Why? Why is it illogical for fanfiction on acid to have internal logical consistency?

Sure it's built to tie characters together that are initially unrelated, but that doesn't mean it can't have consistent rules for how it plays.



Well up until now, we had no indications of what the storyline actually is beyond dolls/action figures being animated and coming to life.

That's internally consistent, no substance, but still consistent.

Now they have an actual backstory and plot, which by all indications is consistent with the premise of these random action figures being "alive" and doing battle.

Where's the internal inconsistency?! I don't see any.



Not being consistent with other game's cannon says nothing about internal consistency. LoZ is not part of Super Smash Brothers Brawl's internal narrative, therefore consistency with it has nothing to do with Brawl's internal consistency.

SSB has never been deep, but it's been internally consistent.




It's consistent in regards to the characters with one caveat. If there were multiple incarnations of the character, the Super Smash Brothers incarnation is representative of every incarnation. Take a look at Link's entrance, I don't remember that in TP, but it is in another LoZ game...

Melee was the same way, they separated Link and young link, yet both Links were able to use hookshot, boomerang, Bow and arrows (and I don't know what you guys think, but it is my opinion that Link's arrows looked like the silver arrows, not the light arrows), and bombs, of which only the bombs could be used by both, the arrows and hookshot could only be used by regular link, and the boomerang could only be used by Young Link? Unless we assume that they both represent all incarnations of the character Link, there is no character consistency.



Again, how so? Where does Brawl contradict itself? Not other narratives, ITSELF!

Zelda turning into Sheik does not contradict itself if it is established that all like characters represent all incarnations within the franchise. Since by all indications it is, there is no internal inconsistency.



Again, why do cross-overs make it INTERNALLY inconsistent?

If it acknowledged the other games as part of it's own cannon and said that those individuals were one and the same as those that appear in Brawl, then yes, that would be internally inconsistent. But... they don't. These are action figures, brought to life. They have no direct link to the actual Zelda, or Link, or Mario as far as the storyline goes, so there is no need to maintain consistency with the other franchises.



Uhhh....

It's essentially to all storytelling except non-fiction.





I'm sorry, but fan-fiction is no different from any other work of the medium with the exception that it's generally much poorer in quality and the person did not create the original work.

You're incorrect.

As interesting as this little spat may be to me.... This is why critical theorist, philosophy majors and English majors, in addition to CX debaters should simply leave their other hobbies/ other life at the entrance to this forum. No one else cares.

On topic... I don't see why the developers would waste he/she/it/potatoe's original moveset b/c some people think he/she/it/potatoe needs to be beaten with a nerf bat.

EDIT:

I'm calling it, Zelda will turn into Tetra, not Sheik.

Good One.

 

[The_Corax_King]

I just don't think it makes sense for Zelda to transform into...... herself wearing a different outfit.

Getting a whole new moveset for an alternate costume seems dumb to me...


Honestly though... unless the SSE specifically incorporates the TP story (in which case Sheik would make no sense)... it's fine for zelda to turn into sheik.... Just because they've updated the names of her moveset to mean TP names, and her look to the TP look doesn't mean she can have no moves from past games...

Zelda's moveset makes no sense in the first place... she gets magic attacks that LINK got in OoT... and now they're named after TP spirits which makes even less sense, considering those spells don't even exist in the game...


And in the end... now matter how much you say Sheik is unimportant to LoZ as a whole... you have to admit she has more importance than Zelda from a single scene standing alone in a tower getting her own character...


btw... sorry for the harshness of my earlier posts... it was a long day... and I realized you're never going to get someone to accept you're argument if you just yell at them

 

[Reyairia]

Getting a whole new moveset for an alternate costume seems dumb to me...

10chars

 

[Soluble Toast]

I just don't think it makes sense for Zelda to transform into...... herself wearing a different outfit.

You just described Sheik O.o
Sheik is Zelda. What Zelda can do, Sheik can do.

Cloaked Zelda, and Sheik are in the same catagory. Disguises.The only difference? Cloaked Zelda is just more obvious. Cloaked Zelda was originally intended to be a character to invoke mystery in TP. Most people suspected the cloaked figure to be the villain/ Twilight Princess. It's just revealed she's Zelda VERY early on.

Plus, the spells aren't exact replicas of the ones from OOT. Notice how Dins fire doesn't cause a dome of fire in Melee/ Brawl? and How you don't have to use Farore's Wind twice? Once to choose a place to warp, and again to actually warp to that location.
The fact is, the spells were inspired by the OOT spells. Since Zelda is a known magic user, and is good with spells, and she doesn't show a very good moveset potential in OOT. Sakurai went with the next best thing: Spells that actually appeared in OOT, but he altered them so they weren't the same as Link's spells, and were incorporated to be Zelda's spells, and no Link's. They aren't the actual spells, or they wouldn't have been renamed. This only suggests Sakurai wants to take a step away from OOT with Zelda.


Sheik was not very important to OOT, but she still got in because she was a unique feature to Zelda, and was from the latest Zelda 3-D adventure. I can see Cloaked Zelda getting in as a re-skin of Sheik simply because she appeared in the latest 3-D adventure, and Sakurai's attempt to drive Zelda forward to TP, despite her incredibly tiny role.

Haha. Don't worry about the harshness. Everyone gets harsh in Sheik debates, everything just goes round in a circle xD

 

[vesperview]

Well the truth is that Sheik is an alterego that is not necessarily Zelda at first glance, Cloaked Zelda is in no point of TP supposed to cover up Zelda's identity of be an alterego, is just a cloak, so it doesn't make sense for that to be called a transformation.

 

[DarkSpidey13]

i agree with all the arguments listed by the OP, however Zelda no longer has Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, or Farore's wind. instead, the names were changed to reflect the spirits in Twilight Princess, and are now Eldin's Fire, Lanayru's Love, and Faron's Wind, according to her card in CoroCoro.

personally, i don't think this affects Sheik's chances, but it does change that argument a bit.

 

[Soluble Toast]

Well the truth is that Sheik is an alterego that is not necessarily Zelda at first glance, Cloaked Zelda is in no point of TP supposed to cover up Zelda's identity of be an alterego, is just a cloak, so it doesn't make sense for that to be called a transformation.

True.
I just think Sakurai will see the Sheikah symbol, Zelda inside the cloak, and create cloaked Zelda as the new Sheik.
Possibly wishful thinking, but oh well.

 

[The_Corax_King]

LOL you just described Sheik.
Sheik is Zelda. What Zelda can do, Sheik can do.

Cloaked Zelda, and Sheik are in the same catagory. Disguises.The only difference? Cloaked Zelda is just more obvious.

Well first people say Sheik doesn't do anything but teach you songs in OoT (earlier post)... well if i remember correctly the Sheikah were trained to defend the royal family... with combat... Impa trained Zelda as a Sheikah... so she was most likely trained to fight... therefore sheik fighting in melee makes plenty of sense...

Second, there is plenty of difference between "using magic to transform and going to your closet to grab a robe" as another member put it... So no... Zelda can't do what Sheik does unless she specifically uses her magic to transform into sheik...

Plus, the spells aren't exact replicas of the ones from OOT. Notice how Dins fire doesn't cause a dome of fire in Melee/ Brawl? and How you don't have to use Farore's Wind twice? Once to choose a place to warp, and again to actually warp to that location.
The fact is, the spells were inspired by the OOT spells. Since Zelda is a known magic user, and is good with spells, and she doesn't show a very good moveset potential in OOT. Sakurai went with the next best thing: Spells that actually appeared in OOT, but he altered them so they weren't the same as Link's spells, and were incorporated to be Zelda's spells, and no Link's. They aren't the actual spells, or they wouldn't have been renamed. This only suggests Sakurai wants to take a step away from OOT with Zelda.

I still don't think it makes sense for them to recycle those OoT spells and attempt to TPify them... If he's so concerned with stepping away from OoT... why not give zelda moves that appeared in TP... like the spells she gets when she is posessed... zelda isn't a magic-user in that game really...and you say she is a totally different character altogether, but she still gets OoT magic...

And according to you (you = people who say TP Zelda and OoT Zelda are totally differnt) it doesn't make sense to give her attacks that didn't even appear in TP...

 

[Black/Light]

True.
I just think Sakurai will see the Sheikah symbol, Zelda inside the cloak, and create cloaked Zelda as the new Sheik.
Possibly wishful thinking, but oh well.

I agree (and no, it's not wishful thinking on my part).
I think Zelda's transformation will be "Twilight/ Cloaked" Zelda with somewhat Sheik like moves but different. Really, Sakurai made up her WHOLE move-set and decided to rename them to reflect TP. . . .I see know reason to not slap cloaked Zeld on a Sheik like move-set and call it something different.

 

[The_Corax_King]

I see no reason to not slap cloaked Zeld on a Sheik like move-set and call it something different.[/COLOR]

I see no reason why Zelda would get an ENTIRELY new moveset just because she puts on a robe...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

I see no reason why Zelda would get an ENTIRELY new moveset just because she puts on a robe...

And I saw no reason to give her an ENTIRELY new moveset in Melee just because she wore tight clothes.

 

[Soluble Toast]

Well first people say Sheik doesn't do anything but teach you songs in OoT (earlier post)... well if i remember correctly the Sheikah were trained to defend the royal family... with combat... Impa trained Zelda as a Sheikah... so she was most likely trained to fight... therefore sheik fighting in melee makes plenty of sense...

Second, there is plenty of difference between "using magic to transform and going to your closet to grab a robe" as another member put it... So no... Zelda can't do what Sheik does unless she specifically uses her magic to transform into sheik...




I still don't think it makes sense for them to recycle those OoT spells and attempt to TPify them... If he's so concerned with stepping away from OoT... why not give zelda moves that appeared in TP... like the spells she gets when she is posessed... zelda isn't a magic-user in that game really...and you say she is a totally different character altogether, but she still gets OoT magic...

And according to you (you = people who say TP Zelda and OoT Zelda are totally differnt) it doesn't make sense to give her attacks that didn't even appear in TP...

We have no idea how long Zelda spent with Impa, we don't even know if Impa trained Zelda at all. It's all speculation. The imag eof the Sheikah is obviously common knowledge among the Royal Family, Zelda could've easily used the Triforce of Wisdom to copy the form of aSheikah, we don't know. We know the triforce of Wisdom triggered Sheik's transformation back to Zelda, so the Triforce could've created Zelda into the image of a Sheikah. We don't have any proof that Sheik knows how to fight.
Sheik and Zelda are not different people. Sheik is only Zelda in a disguise. Peter Parker is still able to shoot webs even when not in the Spiderman costume, Sheik can still use the triforce of wisdom. They're the same person, so naturally, Zelda and Sheik possess the same abilities.



Once again , it's inspired from OOT magic, because Zelda had nothing to draw from to create a move set, so the goddesses spells were modified from Link's spells to make them Zelda's very own spells. THEY ARE NOT THE OOT SPELLS.

Sakurai could've given her Puppet Zelda's abilities, but are they really Zelda's abilities? For all we know they could've been Ganon's. Plus, Sakurai was able to translate the Goddesses spells from Melee into the Light Spirit Spells for Brawl creating a TP feel around her attacks, so in Sakurai's mind Zelda's moveset is already TP based. Why create a whole new moveset for a veteran that has a unique move set already? ( No matter how sucky it is xP) when you can simply rename it EFFECTIVEL Yto relate to the latest adaption of the character. The same here can be done with Sheik

it does make sense to me to give Zelda the Goddesses spells. Every Zelda in TLOZ is associated with having a good relationship with the goddesses. It's only natural Zelda would have a move set INSPIRED by spells associated with Goddesses, and Zelda actually summoned the light spirits in TP, So this only backs up that her move set does relate to her, in some strange form.

 

[The_Corax_King]

And I saw no reason to give her an ENTIRELY new moveset in Melee just because she wore tight clothes.

Um... if you read my above post you'll see...

Sheik really is an alter-ego... a different person zelda must use magic to transform into... she was trained by a Sheikah which means she can fight...

There is a difference between putting on a robe and magically transforming into a Sheikah-trained... ninja... I guess you could call her...

edit: I like how this has become a Sheik DEBATE... not a flaming argument...

 

[PrettyGoodYear]

Um... if you read my above post you'll see...

Sheik really is an alter-ego... a different person zelda must use magic to transform into... she was trained by a Sheikah which means she can fight...

There is a difference between putting on a robe and magically transforming into a Sheikah-trained... ninja... I guess you could call her...

She only uses magic to change some of her features. She doesn't actually transform into someone else... Sheik is Zelda in thight clothes, with some magically changed eyes and skin color no matter how you slice it.

I don't even know why Zelda is so slow in Melee, in Oot she was hella fast, (the first few times I couldn't catch up with her as the castle crumbled) and I never recall seeing Sheik running. Hmm...

 

[The_Corax_King]

I don't even know why Zelda is so slow in Melee, in Oot she was hella fast, (the first few times I couldn't catch up with her as the castle crumbled)

lol great quote...

 

[Brasil]

Why? Why is it illogical for fanfiction on acid to have internal logical consistency?

I'm surprised that you need to ask this, especially since we're talking about Brawl's story mode. The answer to your question is "BECAUSE it's fan-fiction-on-acid." BECAUSE Brawl is a jumbled mess of a plot that is shoving unrelated characters into random situations to fight random, unrelated enemies.

You say that Brawl could still have consistent rules for how [the story] plays. What consistent rules? What internal logical consistency could you possibly see in a story mode where you have Diddy Kong and Fox fighting Rayquaza? Or Pit and Mario fighting their way across a desert? Or Bowser stealing Donkey Kong's bananas? Or Mario and Sonic zipping through a jungle? Wario turning Zelda into a trophy?

Do you see what I'm saying here? There's no inherent internal logical consistency in fan-fiction-on-acid. If there was some sort of internal logical consistency there, we wouldn't have such a mess of a plot. We wouldn't be jumping around like that. There would be some sort of common thread running through SSE beyond the Ancient Minister bit. The only consistency I can see is that Brawl's SSE is going to be consistent at being inconsistent.

Well up until now, we had no indications of what the storyline actually is beyond dolls/action figures being animated and coming to life.

That's internally consistent, no substance, but still consistent.

Those were book-end cut-scenes. Even in single-player, they had zero bearing on anything. Once you started playing, those book-end cut-scenes ceased to exist. They opened and closed the game, but beyond that, you might as well had been playing a Mortal Kombat or Street Fighter. There was never any internal consistency in the previous Smash Bros games.

Now they have an actual backstory and plot, which by all indications is consistent with the premise of these random action figures being "alive" and doing battle.

Where's the internal inconsistency?! I don't see any.

The internal inconsistency in Brawl itself is that none of the "story" directly involves any of the characters we've seen. There's no actual backstory and no actual plot. Just a dartboard used to create the story, with characters that could pretty much go anywhere. Each level in Brawl will be a self-contained vignette that doesn't make sense with any of the other levels. And as such, you could switch characters around and it wouldn't make a difference. Internal inconsistency.

In terms of Brawl fitting into the Smash Bros series, the "action figures coming to life" part is still that book-end cut-scene that has no bearing on what you're doing in the story mode. Granted, they've integrated it a tad better in Brawl from what we've seen (to the extent of the trophy gun), but realistically, the action figure angle is still just an incidental cut-scene that book-ends the fighting. Then when the fighting starts, we've leaped from fighting the Yoshi Team in Hyrule to facing Luigi and Mario in Jungle Japes, then trying to survive against giant Donkey Kong while our two teamates Fox and Jigglypuff get fried by Planet Zebes' acid. Still no internal consistency present.

Not being consistent with other game's canon says nothing about internal consistency. LoZ is not part of Super Smash Brothers Brawl's internal narrative, therefore consistency with it has nothing to do with Brawl's internal consistency.

SSB has never been deep, but it's been internally consistent.

Why is the OP convinced that Zelda meeting herself in Brawl wouldn't make sense? Especially within the cluster**** context (read: internally inconsistent) of Smash Bros? Nothing makes sense in Smash Bros. Nothing has ever made sense. The series has never even taken itself seriously. It's always been random and chaotic with heavy influences from various Nintendo games.

It's consistent in regards to the characters with one caveat. If there were multiple incarnations of the character, the Super Smash Brothers incarnation is representative of every incarnation. Take a look at Link's entrance, I don't remember that in TP, but it is in another LoZ game...

Melee was the same way, they separated Link and young link, yet both Links were able to use hookshot, boomerang, Bow and arrows (and I don't know what you guys think, but it is my opinion that Link's arrows looked like the silver arrows, not the light arrows), and bombs, of which only the bombs could be used by both, the arrows and hookshot could only be used by regular link, and the boomerang could only be used by Young Link? Unless we assume that they both represent all incarnations of the character Link, there is no character consistency.

Zelda turning into Sheik does not contradict itself if it is established that all like characters represent all incarnations within the franchise. Since by all indications it is, there is no internal inconsistency.

You merely provided examples of liberties taken with general move sets, changes that have more to do with gameplay than trying to negate character consistency. Link's arrows are most certainly silver arrows, yes. Yes, both Links use the boomerang. Yes, the hookshot normally was ALO (Adult Link Only...sounds kind of kinky...). But there's no denying that the movesets were largely (if not entirely) based on OoT, just like the character models. Even the boomerang and hookshot were modeled after OoT's items. The very appearance of Young Link screams OoT. Of course you had variations (such as the hookshot and arrows), but those were minute variations. And overall, it's stupidly clear that OoT was the character template, so there was still a very strong character consistency, which pretty effectively punches a hole in your other point about "representing all incarnations."

Again, how so? Where does Brawl contradict itself? Not other narratives, ITSELF!

...the very fact that we have random pairings of characters in random levels. If there were only two characters we played as straight through, then Brawl would be internally consistent. But as it stands, we're hopping around from character to character, from enemy to enemy, from level to level. That is inconsistent within Brawl. Why are you even looking for an outright contradiction, anyway?

Again, why do cross-overs make it INTERNALLY inconsistent?

Because there's never any logic to a cross-over plot. You have random, nonsensical gibberish stringing random external events together with unrelated characters getting caught in the middle. Cross-overs are internally inconsistent because its characters are from completely different stories, often in completely different genres and so bringing them together results in a trainwreck of contrasts, pacing, and plot/character development. This isn't a difficult concept to understand, friend.

If it acknowledged the other games as part of it's own cannon and said that those individuals were one and the same as those that appear in Brawl, then yes, that would be internally inconsistent. But... they don't. These are action figures, brought to life. They have no direct link to the actual Zelda, or Link, or Mario as far as the storyline goes, so there is no need to maintain consistency with the other franchises.

Then explain why with each Smash Bros game, most of the staple characters have seen visual upgrades/updates/changes in accordance with the current game in their respective franchises?

Uhhh....

It's essentially to all storytelling except non-fiction.

Uh...no it's not. lol. Certain story-types (like fan-fiction cross-overs) are focused on one thing and one thing only: jamming as many characters as possible into one story. In those situations there's no need (or desire) to create any type of believable setting. If there's a plot, it's only to keep the characters together, and it's often forced and artificial. Make no mistake, man. The only times when you're going to actually suspend your disbelief are when a work is presenting an entirely original world with entirely original characters. Otherwise, you already know everything you need to know, and therefore nothing is new or surprising, which therefore does not challenge what you can and cannot believe.

I'm sorry, but fan-fiction is no different from any other work of the medium with the exception that it's generally much poorer in quality and the person did not create the original work.

You're incorrect.

Whoa whoa whoa, are you serious? You must be trolling. Tell me you're trolling. No sensible human being would say what you just said. You say that fan-fiction is no different than any other work, and then mention quality issues and originality as if they're minor little quibbles? No offense, but what in the hell is wrong with you? There are only two things that ever matter in writing. Quality and originality. Anyone tells you otherwise, they're ****ing liars. If you look at fan-fiction and think to yourself "Oh, well, the writing sucks and they're not using original characters but there's still a narrative so I'll consider it no different than Heart of Darkness and Slaughterhouse Five" you need to get your head on straight asap.

 

[Ekul]

Strictly speaking, Mario shouldn't be able to use fireballs without a fire flower.

 

[Tyeforce]

Roll eyes much?

i agree with all the arguments listed by the OP, however Zelda no longer has Din's Fire, Nayru's Love, or Farore's wind. instead, the names were changed to reflect the spirits in Twilight Princess, and are now Eldin's Fire, Lanayru's Love, and Faron's Wind, according to her card in CoroCoro.

personally, i don't think this affects Sheik's chances, but it does change that argument a bit.

I know, I still have to edit my first post.

LOL!!!

 

[Teeb147]

Sheik confirmed!

So I guess it'll be sheik with a new design eh? It'll be sweet.

 

[Frankula]

Actually since all the characters are just trophies sheik COULD be a seperate character and not screw up the universe.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Haha, seriously.
We have no idea how the plot is going to work out.
Debating on how consistent or random it is is totally pointless, as both of you have no fricken' clues. None of us do.

The point that I was making was that smash follows it's own rules, rules completely independent of games where it got the source characters. It's only obliged to be consistent with itself and it's own rules, not the rules of any other narrative.

 

[vesperview]

Roll eyes much?

Fail much? I thought you didn't want an argument in your "very logical" thread lol!

 

[Tyeforce]

Fail much? I thought you didn't want an argument in your "very logical" thread lol!

No. And you said your were leaving yesterday. Why are you still here?

 

[JonBeBonanza]

you guys argue SOOOO MUCH

 

[vesperview]

No. And you said your were leaving yesterday. Why are you still here?

Eh... Because I changed my mind and I can be in any thread I please. It's a very pointless question.

 

[Kokichi]

One last thing. Many people think that it might be a good idea to make Sheik a separate character from Zelda. This cannot be, though. And I can prove it with two words: SubSpace Emissary.

Even though Smash Bros is not canon to other games, it should have it's own canon story. What would happen when Zelda comes across herself in costume in Adventure Mode?! Chaos, that's what. Even though Smash Bros. in general doesn't make much sense, a unique and original story should. This is why Dr. Mario is going to be removed (and if you think otherwise, someone needs to slap some sense into you.) This is also why Paper Mario (a character that I once supported until I thought about Adventure Mode) has a very slim chance. Maybe another Paper Mario character will get in, but not Mario himself. Two Marios = wrong.

FYI your reasoning is flawed. There's no reason why you couldn't have a scene where Zelda gets kidnapped, then later she returns as Sheik, having been able to free herself. Or, perhaps you play as Zelda in the main mode, then you watch Link get kidnapped, and it cuts away to a cinematic where it shows Zelda transform into Sheik, and from then on you play as Sheik.

Also, if the game were trying to really stick to being "canon", then you wouldn't be able to do ditto matches in multiplayer. However, do remember that the entire premise of the Smash Bros game is a kid playing with toys in his room, so virtually anything is possible.

 

[Brasil]

Haha, seriously.
We have no idea how the plot is going to work out.
Debating on how consistent or random it is is totally pointless, as both of you have no fricken' clues. None of us do..

And my point was that Smash doesn't follow its own rules, because it doesn't establish any. It's pure, straight-up chaos, completely random, and utterly insane franchise cross-over fan-fictionalized fan-service. That's why Zelda meeting Sheik (if Sheik were a separate character) isn't a bad thing...because Smash is insane to begin with, and you know to expect that, so that's why you don't have to willingly suspend any disbelief. Smash Bros is just insane, straight-up.

So adumbrodeus and I aren't ********, per se. We're just English majors or something similar.

 

[Tyeforce]

FYI your reasoning is flawed. There's no reason why you couldn't have a scene where Zelda gets kidnapped, then later she returns as Sheik, having been able to free herself. Or, perhaps you play as Zelda in the main mode, then you watch Link get kidnapped, and it cuts away to a cinematic where it shows Zelda transform into Sheik, and from then on you play as Sheik.

Also, if the game were trying to really stick to being "canon", then you wouldn't be able to do ditto matches in multiplayer. However, do remember that the entire premise of the Smash Bros game is a kid playing with toys in his room, so virtually anything is possible.

Adventure mode is completely different from multiplayer mode in terms of consistency...

 

[SolidSonic]

I don't want "he/she/it/potato" in the game.