The process of learning to play ZSS well

[Megasabin]

When Brawl first came out I picked up ZSS and while I liked her I ended up maining ROB instead. I stopped playing Smash back in April, but to my surprise now that I've started medical school a lot of people play here. It's a good way to destress. I have now started playing ZSS again, but I'm having some trouble increasing my level of play with her past a certain point. I can't seem to find any comprehensive guides on her (most character forums seem to have one sticked) so Here are some questions:

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1. I've already picked up a few things like to almost never use her forward smash/down air/throw/or regular A combo. The forward smash is slow compared to the side B, the down air is a death sentence, the throw is good but if you miss the recovery on it is terrible, and her regular A combo seems to be interrupted between the 2nd and 3rd hit by most characters.

A. Is there ever a time a place to use any of these moves? Are there some I should avoid using no matter what?
B. If you get the throw off which one is her best throw? I've been doing the down throw since it seems to bounce them straight up.
C. Are there any real good combos that have a good chance of working out of a throw?

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2. I realize her down B is her most versatile move, so I want to know if I'm using it properly. I mainly use it to get back on the edge by doing a super footstool off someone's head. I can't really find a way to incorporate it into regular non-ledge fighting as it's attack function comes out too slow to really hit anyone.

I'm pretty sure by only using this for recovery on ledges I'm not using this move to it's full potential. Would anyone care to elaborate on when to use this move?

Also none of my friends ever really play ledge games. They never hang onto a ledge for more than a second, so it would be very hard to spike them from the ledge. Most of the time they aim to just land back on the level or they grab the ledge and immediately come up with an attack or dodge.

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3. A. I'm a bit confused about the down smash. I'm having trouble catching people in it as she takes out the gun pretty slow. They can usually hit me while I'm taking out the gun and interrupt the attack. How does one hit with this move consistently successfully?

B. On a similar note I can't seem to pull off any of the combos I read about with this move. I read that Down Smash, Down smash, Up tilt is a really good one, yet whenever I try it they seem to immediately get free after the second down smash, and easily avoid the up tilt. I also read it's possible to D. Smash, D. Smash and then move forward and do it again? I've also had no success with this. How does one do this?

Are there any good videos that demonstrate people doing these combos?

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4. Is it possible to combo out of the up B? When I hit people with them and spike them to the ground, they just automatically get to do their recovery which has invincible frames. Is there anyway to spike them with up B and actually follow it up with other moves?

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5. My friends play Lucas, Kirby, Sonic, Snake, Pickachu, DK, and Young Link. I'm not sure if there any really good or bad match ups in there for ZSS. I can beat most of them about 60% of the time with ZSS. Kirby is the hardest, because he ruins my air game with his rock. Are there any character specific facts I should know about these guys in relation to ZSS? Any tricks I can do regarding them? I know the down stun chain only works on some character for instance.

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6. I haven't been able to find a general guide thread, but maybe one exists and I just looked over it? Is there any thread that has a comprehensive and up to date guide of how to play ZSS? Or maybe a thread with a lot of helpful tips? I read snakee's recovery thread, and that was good, but I couldn't find any other really helpful ones.

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7. The way I learned to play Melee was watching videos of people who were good with the character. I know there is a huge video archive of ZSS, but I'd rather not watch people who are only ok and end up picking up bad habits. Or is everyone in the video compendium really good?

Basically what I'm asking here is if anyone can recommend and perhaps link me to the videos of the best ZSS players? Or at least give me the names of some really good players who actually have videos available online.



I know I asked a lot, but hopefully other new people looking to play ZSS can look at this thread and get helped as well.

I really appreciate it. Hopefully, my ZSS will improve a lot after this. Thank a ton

 

[Tezmata]

Wall O' Text.

I didn't read the whole thing because I got bored, but there are ALWAYS places to use any move. It's just harder to find uses for crap moves like F-smash and D-air than epic moves like D-smash and Side-B.


Pros to F-smash
---Hits behind you, even if only for a little bit
---Has low knockback which may lead to combos if done properly
---Won't decay Side-B when you use it

Pros to D-air
---Is angled, not perfectly vertical, so it's possible to spike an opponent and make it back to stage safely
---Allows for quick transportation back to the ground on stages with "floaty" effects (Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Pirate Ship, etc.)
---Gets you away from floaty characters if you're both high up and you're at risk of being KO'd.

Pros to grabs/throws
---Mixes up your approaches. It's laggy but can be effective if you catch the opponent off-guard.
---F-throw at higher percentages sets up well for the second hit of F-air on most characters.
---As you noted, D-throw is fairly useful.

And the jab is actually pretty good, all things considering. It gets a bad rap most of the time but if you just use the first two hits, it sets up all your tilts.

 

[Megasabin]

Wall O' Text.

I didn't read the whole thing because I got bored, but there are ALWAYS places to use any move. It's just harder to find uses for crap moves like F-smash and D-air than epic moves like D-smash and Side-B.


Pros to F-smash
---Hits behind you, even if only for a little bit
---Has low knockback which may lead to combos if done properly
---Won't decay Side-B when you use it

Pros to D-air
---Is angled, not perfectly vertical, so it's possible to spike an opponent and make it back to stage safely
---Allows for quick transportation back to the ground on stages with "floaty" effects (Stadium 2, Spear Pillar, Pirate Ship, etc.)
---Gets you away from floaty characters if you're both high up and you're at risk of being KO'd.

Pros to grabs/throws
---Mixes up your approaches. It's laggy but can be effective if you catch the opponent off-guard.
---F-throw at higher percentages sets up well for the second hit of F-air on most characters.
---As you noted, D-throw is fairly useful.

And the jab is actually pretty good, all things considering. It gets a bad rap most of the time but if you just use the first two hits, it sets up all your tilts.

Thanks for the answer. I've gone back and tried to make the thread more easily readable.

 

[DeliciousCake]

Pros to F-smash
---Has low knockback which may lead to combos if done properly

If your opponent is letting you combo out of f-smash, they should never play Smash again.

Pros to D-air
---Is angled, not perfectly vertical, so it's possible to spike an opponent and make it back to stage safely

The only way to spike someone with d-air and not kill yourself (aside from your opponent being ******** and floating facing away from the edge of the stage, and I mean *right on the edge*) is if they clash aerials with you, allowing you to recover.

And the jab is actually pretty good, all things considering. It gets a bad rap most of the time but if you just use the first two hits, it sets up all your tilts.

Agreed, jab cancel after the first two hits works very well.
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1A. You should NEVER use f-smash except after a d-smash at low percentages. NEVER use d-air; fast-falling u-airs are much more flexible. Down-throw is a good setup for possible aerials. Jab canceling (mentioned earlier.)

1B. Depends what you wanna do. Already stated, down throw is good for comboing aerials. Up throw is good for the same, but gives them more lift up and forward. F-throw is better for pushing your opponent off the stage at high percentages. I personally never use b-throw except if my back is to the edge.

1C. D-throw -> u/f-air. Plasma wire is an alright option, but if your opponent is smart they will always DI away from you out of the throw. F-throw -> f-air. F-throw -> F-throw -> F-throw on heavies with large hitboxes if you have amazing timing.

2. Flip jump kick comes out at the peak of the jump. What you want to do with it is up to you; ZSS is a very versatile character, so throw around some stuff and figure out what works for you and works against your opponent. Yes, it is a good recovery tool, but you should never rely on it. Offense wise, it's a great spiking tool, as well as a great KO move. Again, it just depends on when you deploy it; most of the time you'll be descending above someone with it and they'll mistake the size of the hitbox and run into it, or otherwise it will deter them from getting too close.

3A. ALWAYS c-stick your d-smash, it will come out that fraction of a second faster than it would with stick+A. Other than that, it's about timing. You can't just run up to someone and try to use it, it will never work, plain and simple. It's about tech-chasing or spacing against a falling/recovering opponent.

3B. Personally I have never been a huge fan of double d-smash, but I will use it from time to time, and I know it works well for others. Usually my combo goes d-smash -> d-tilt -> f/u-air, and then chase from there.

4. Read the "THESE ARE NOT COMBOS" post by ph00tbag (I disagree with him about the usefulness of d-throw but that's just personal opinion on my part.) On the ground, Plasma Wire doesn't have too much going for it. For a time there was a craze about "Oh my god ZSS has an infinite with Plasma Wire and d-smash" but it's been proven false. Against unaware opponents you can pull it off, maybe once, but after that you cannot do it again, so let's just leave that alone. Plasma Wire combos usually involve aerials, as do most ZSS chains. Drag them down into you for a b/u-air and that's about it.

5. Read the various match-up threads by Snakeee and Orion.

6. http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=155874 Outdated, but good general information.

7. My videos are old, don't watch them. myRoboticClaw is an amazing ZSS player from Reno, and he has quite a few videos. Ikki is probably the best ZSS player in Japan. Snakeee has been placing really well at tournaments here on the east coast. You'll be able to tell who the good ZSS players are because, well, we're the only ones who frequent the ZSS board regularly. I would suggest watching Claw's video, and then looking for some of Snakeee's and Ikki's matches.

The Zero Suit Samus Resource Center
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=175185

Enjoy your stay,
DeliciousCake

 

[Adapt]

I'll just add some stuff to what cake said.

The only way to spike someone with d-air and not kill yourself (aside from your opponent being ******** and floating facing away from the edge of the stage, and I mean *right on the edge*) is if they clash aerials with you, allowing you to recover.

You can dair snakes cypher The cypher hits you and saves you while snake plummets to his death.

You can also dsmash a foe on the edge, roll towards the edge and dair someone. However it is almost always better to use down-B for spiking.

1B. Depends what you wanna do. Already stated, down throw is good for comboing aerials. Up throw is good for the same, but gives them more lift up and forward. F-throw is better for pushing your opponent off the stage at high percentages. I personally never use b-throw except if my back is to the edge.

I find that up-throw is useless for followup... opponents can easily jump away before you can do anything. It does get the foe in the air though, which is a good thing

3A. ALWAYS c-stick your d-smash, it will come out that fraction of a second faster than it would with stick+A. Other than that, it's about timing. You can't just run up to someone and try to use it, it will never work, plain and simple. It's about tech-chasing or spacing against a falling/recovering opponent.

Just adding to this: if you have your controls modified, using c-stick+attack (or you can use c-stick+grab but it's riskier) at the same time is a neat way to charge your dsmash and catch spot-dodgers.

3B. Personally I have never been a huge fan of double d-smash, but I will use it from time to time, and I know it works well for others. Usually my combo goes d-smash -> d-tilt -> f/u-air, and then chase from there.

Why don't you use dsmash>dsmash>dtilt>...? I tend to go for that at low percentages.

7. My videos are old, don't watch them.

Get some new vids up cake!

 

[James Sparrow]

ROFL @ whoever said "combo out of fsmash"

 

[Bouse]

Dair can spike on Delfino!

LOL WATER!

 

[Megasabin]

Lots of Useful Information

Thanks a lot. That was really helpful. Few more quick questions:

1. So I looked up myroboticclaw. I can only find his account on youtube and while his ZSS samus stuff is good he hasn't posted any new competitive matches since Feburary and May. Is all his stuff available on youtube or are there other spots to grab his videos that I should know about? Does have any more recent videos than Feb/May?


2. Why does it look so different when he uses throw with ZSS? For example, everytime he uses throw in this video it looks like it comes out lightning and fast and from close range. Is that just him canceling his dash with a shield, and then using throw?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szbBmRnPES8

It seems like whatever he does makes the throw come out a lot faster.

3. Also in that video he did some weird move where it looked like he threw Snake, then caught him, then threw him again instantly at 2:29. What is going on here?

 

[DeliciousCake]

1. You might be able to find some more videos on AllIsBrawl, but I'm not aware of any more.

2. I wouldn't know, I've never paid much attention to grab speeds.

3. ZSS f-throw chain, discovered by yours truly.

 

[Chaco]

AiB copies everything from here, so I doubt it.

And nice fthrow chain, I've used it once.

 

[Iwan]

AiB copies everything from here, so I doubt it.

You are so. so wrong. *is infuriated*

I love AiB lol...people who don't like that site usually don't because they aren't taking full advantage of it. On topic though....

Delicious cake is all knowing. And as far as videos? I highly recommend watching some of snakeee's videos. He's really good.

 

[Chaco]

You are so. so wrong. *is infuriated*

I love AiB lol...people who don't like that site usually don't because they aren't taking full advantage of it. On topic though....

I'm taking that opinion from the Yoshi boards who have copied my stuff, many a time.

 

[FBM]

To find Claw's combo vid, search "ssbb absolute zero" on youtube. And keep in mind the dsmash -> up+B -> dsmash chains he does are NOT true combos - the opponent can tech out of them - but they do work if the person techs in place or doesn't tech at all.

And on the note of the down throw, it does have it's uses, though not for true combos:

Against characters with d-airs that come out slowly (DK, Ganon etc), chase any low-% down throws immediately with u-airs - they won't be able to attack or dodge in time. Against someone with a fast d-air (ie. lucas), dont d-throw at low % - they will hit you if you don't shield.

At mid % it gets better though: they will bounce higher and you can react to what they do rather than having to decide whether or not to chase immediately. If they airdodge to end the hitstun, hit them with a u-air or f-air right after the hitstun ends. If they attack right away, either up+B them or chase with a u-air with the attack is winding down. If they don't do anything, try to up+B them - if they dodge, chase with with a u-air IMMEDIATELY after the up+B finishes.

At high %'s, just f-throw them because it has the most knockback and will probably toss them off or near the ledge for you to ledgehog them.

 

[LordoftheMorning]

Yeah I wished there was some sort of guide as well. I just watched a combo vid, picked up a few things and went from there. I beat this really good marth that I couldn't beat with my main or my shiek (my other main). I also have a friend who plays an intimidating zzs. he tought me a few things the hard way. He stunguns>dthrow>maybe an aerial. They I found that Stungun>dash attack>jab combo seems to always work. Glide tossing the parts>jab combo works well in the beginning.

 

[BlueTerrorist]

Zamus is too much fun to pass up. I recommened newcomers who like fast characters to try her out.

That is all. *Goes to read the stickies ^_^*