The Problem with Charizard

[meleebrawler]

Zard neutral is kind of bad but it's not unsalvageable, it just revolves around getting reads. I'm not talking hard F-smash reads, I'm talking about knowing what move to approach with or what habit to look out for. Nair to land on opponents and beat out short ranged attacks, grab to beat shield, flamethrower or Bair if they try to wall you out, ect. Running up and shielding to get an Up Smash punish is also really effective, especially since Zard's fantastic ground mobility makes it very easy to mess up your opponent's spacing. This is really effective against sword characters who are dependent on good spacing to wall their opponents out.

His hitboxes really aren't a problem. So what if Up Tilt doesn't hit in front of him? That's not Up Tilt's job - he has a frame 4 jab and frame 6 Usmash for that. U-Tilt is a juggling and platform pressure tool you use when your opponent is above your head, and it's massive disjoint is really useful for that. Fair isn't a very good neutral tool but it's lethal in advantage. Bair is the only hitbox I really take issue with since it feels really hard to consistently land it on grounded opponents sometimes, but when you do it's worth it, especially if you get the tipper.

I don't get what people have against his Nair. It's better then Ivysaur's, imo. It's sort of bad out of shield sure but he's got Up Smash and Fly for that. Meanwhile Nair move frame traps pretty well and true combos into jab. It can be oppressive if you have stage control and your opponent is trying to jump over you, especially if they're trying to escape from the ledge in particular. It's also fantastic juggling tool with Zard's buffed air speed, especially since it can catch air dodges thanks to its large lingering hitbox. It's also a nifty edgeguarding tool for similar reasons.

The nice thing is that you can use Squirtle or Ivysaur to download and/or condition the opponent first, then use Charizard to capitalize on that. That's what I always do. Some matches I hardly use Zard at all, but in other ones I use Squirt and Ivy to safely poke around until I figure out how to use Zard optimally.

People are giving up on Zard far too fast I feel. Maybe my opinion as a crazy loyalist doesn't mean much, but I'm getting a ton of mileage out of him. At the very least, he feels better off then he was in Smash 4.


Edit: And Charizard wasn't just nerfed into Ultimate, he's received some significant buffs as well. The biggest one, imo, being the sizable boost to his air speed. Not only does this improve his approach, but it also makes his already bonkers advantage stage even stronger. It even helps his disadvantage a little. Up Smash now connects consistently, so no more having opponents falling out of it for no good reason. Up Tilt's hitbox is massive now. Flare Blitz is a better kill move then it used to be. Meanwhile the only nerf I feel is kind of significant is Fair no longer autocancles.

Forget it man. These people won't be happy unless Charizard is the neutral god of the team while the others solely mop up after it's mistakes. Why else would one fixate on his theoretical performance solo (even though only Ivy would be decent at best there) instead of appreciating what he does really well for his team: maximising the advantage earned from his teammate's strong neutrals and covering for their weaknesses.

 

[Deleted member]

Kirby, Bowser Jr, and Mii Brawler

I've seen a lot of solid Kirbys. I'd say he's way better.

 

[meleebrawler]

Here's a riddle for you: Would a solo Squirtle do better than Kirby?

 

[Deleted member]

Here's a riddle for you: Would a solo Squirtle do better than Kirby?

What are you trying to say?

 

[meleebrawler]

What are you trying to say?

Answer the question. Do you fear Kirby more than a trainer that never switches off Squirtle?

 

[Deleted member]

Answer the question. Do you fear Kirby more than a trainer that never switches off Squirtle?

Yes.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes.

So solo Squirtle is bottom-tier then?

 

[Lacrimosa]

So solo Squirtle is bottom-tier then?

Can Squirtly kill reliably? I think Kirby has slightly morer options there.

 

[Deleted member]

So solo Squirtle is bottom-tier then?

Um, I previously argued that Kirby is better than Charizard, not worse. Where did Squirtle come from?

Still, Squirtle can't kill reliably. So maybe.

 

[meleebrawler]

Can Squirtly kill reliably? I think Kirby has slightly morer options there.

He absolutely can not kill reliably. None of his aerials kill until obscene percents or he's practically hugging the blast zone and no kill setups except maybe with bad DI and being willing to give up one of your stocks with an offstage Waterfall. His smashes, while pretty strong for a little guy, have slow startup, bad range and very little active frames making them easily dodged.

Um, I previously argued that Kirby is better than Charizard, not worse. Where did Squirtle come from?

Still, Squirtle can't kill reliably. So maybe.

Why does Charizard get all the flack when you agree Squirtle is down there with him as one of the worst?

 

[Deleted member]

Why does Charizard get all the flack when you agree Squirtle is down there with him as one of the worst?

Squirtle still sees use though. He's small and combo-heavy. The opposite won't get you anywhere in Smash, and Charizard epitomizes the opposite so much that he's near-unplayable.

With that, plus the fact that Squirtle can't kill reliably, both are bad on their own, but Squirtle has a neutral and isn't combo food, so he's arguably better.

 

[meleebrawler]

Squirtle still sees use though. He's small and combo-heavy. The opposite won't get you anywhere in Smash, and Charizard epitomizes the opposite so much that he's near-unplayable.

With that, plus the fact that Squirtle can't kill reliably, both are bad on their own, but Squirtle has a neutral and isn't combo food, so he's arguably better.

He dies to sneezes and doesn't even have a good recovery. His neutral is only scary at low percents where he can convert into big damage, after that anyone can just trade with him and easily kill him before he can do the same. Doesn't matter how good your neutral is if you can't seal the deal in any way.

But of course no one hardly ever has to deal with those crippling flaws, just like Ivysaur doesn't die every time it gets sent a decent way offstage, because he can just switch when the time comes. Charizard is at his best when juggling or with stage control, and can always count on his teammates to help him get the opponents there if it's too hard for him alone to do. You just have to learn when and how to step out of the Ivy comfort zone once advantage is attained; you can miss out on a lot of damage on some characters otherwise.

 

[ZephyrZ]

Funny how we were just talking about how Charizard doesn't get high level play when this set just happened the other day.
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/407043022?t=07h49m01s
Charizard gets sizable usage in this set, and his advantage state, corner pressure, edgeguarding and out of shield game all come into play here to great effect.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

He dies to sneezes and doesn't even have a good recovery. His neutral is only scary at low percents where he can convert into big damage, after that anyone can just trade with him and easily kill him before he can do the same. Doesn't matter how good your neutral is if you can't seal the deal in any way.

But of course no one hardly ever has to deal with those crippling flaws, just like Ivysaur doesn't die every time it gets sent a decent way offstage, because he can just switch when the time comes. Charizard is at his best when juggling or with stage control, and can always count on his teammates to help him get the opponents there if it's too hard for him alone to do. You just have to learn when and how to step out of the Ivy comfort zone once advantage is attained; you can miss out on a lot of damage on some characters otherwise.

I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely. However, I still think Charizard gets the shaft here. Squirtle and Ivy have enough going for them that they're versatile enough to be useful on their own. Squirtle has speed, good spacing tools, combos, gimp potential. Ivy has combos, kill power, projectiles, kill confirms. Charizard has weight and maaaaybe recovery.

I do think solo Zard is bottom 5, but I don't think that means he's completely useless especially in a game so well balanced. I do think that he needs one or two more tools to make him as useful as the other two. I understand Charizard's purpose is to tank and hopefully use some of his kill power to knock out stocks. But objectively his moves are so bad that he can't fulfill half of his role. Solo Zard has never been a huge threat, so giving him back his autocancel fair and returning his nair hitbox would not break the character.

I'm fine with Zard being the worst of the trio, but at least make him have a purpose.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I understand what you're saying, and I agree completely. However, I still think Charizard gets the shaft here. Squirtle and Ivy have enough going for them that they're versatile enough to be useful on their own. Squirtle has speed, good spacing tools, combos, gimp potential. Ivy has combos, kill power, projectiles, kill confirms. Charizard has weight and maaaaybe recovery.

I don't really think Squirtle is useful on his own either. He's arguably the worst character at killing in his game. All he can really do to kill is f-tilt -> jab lock combos (which can be teched) or go for hard Smash Attack reads (and his smash attacks aren't even that good). Ivysaur is closer to being functional on her own but some characters can just shut down her recovery completely.

Why the "maybe" for Charizard's recovery? It's not godlike, and possibly not even top 10, but it's still pretty dang good. Fly has superarmor and a deadly hitbox, and Flare Blitz can be a lethal mix up against overly aggressive edge guarders.

Not to mention that Charizard has the most lethal out of shield game of the three, as well as an incredible advantage state thanks to having the highest run speed of any superheavy. He's the most niche member of the team and I'd love to see him buffed but you undersell him.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I don't really think Squirtle is useful on his own either. He's arguably the worst character at killing in his game. All he can really do to kill is f-tilt -> jab lock combos (which can be teched) or go for hard Smash Attack reads (and his smash attacks aren't even that good). Ivysaur is closer to being functional on her own but some characters can just shut down her recovery completely.

Why the "maybe" for Charizard's recovery? It's not godlike, and possibly not even top 10, but it's still pretty dang good. Fly has superarmor and a deadly hitbox, and Flare Blitz can be a lethal mix up against overly aggressive edge guarders.

Not to mention that Charizard has the most lethal out of shield game of the three, as well as an incredible advantage state thanks to having the highest run speed of any superheavy. He's the most niche member of the team and I'd love to see him buffed but you undersell him.

But see, that's the whole point. Squirtle is fast, he's good at that. Ivy has combos, he's good at that. Charizard can...kill? Sometimes I guess. Charizard can recover? I mean he's fine at that. Charizard can tank? Sure, but he's not necessarily good at that.

I just don't think Charizard has a defined purpose like the other two. He's too much of a jack of all, master of none that he doesn't have any specialty. He's fine at a lot of things, but not good at any.

 

[Deleted member]

So can we safely say that Charizard is Ultimate's "trash tier" character like Leffen says? Regardless of what very little good he has?

 

[Boredatwork]

So can we safely say that Charizard is Ultimate's "trash tier" character like Leffen says? Regardless of what very little good he has?

If he were his own character, absolutely.

As it stands, he's still terrible, but I wouldn't buff him to the point where he would be a great character on his own, the point of PT is that all three characters are kind of average but can switch to compensate for bad match-ups/situations.

 

[Shimazu_Hyuga]

Almost patch time so here's hoping Zard gets that good treatment. If the give him that good loving I hope to see him Solo more in tournies

 

[Call_Me_Red]

Almost patch time so here's hoping Zard gets that good treatment. If the give him that good loving I hope to see him Solo more in tournies

We did it, boys. We got that minor buff to Flare Blitz we were all asking for. Time to close this thread.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Doublepost. Sorry. Nothing happened when I first hit post.

 

[Deleted member]

I really don't get this horrible neutral talk. DO you guys not bait? Do you not Read? His neutral is okay to me, not good not bad.

That won't make up for his copious flaws. Charizard may as well be intentionally trashy. People rarely use him online. They're not sleeping on him, they're avoiding him.

 

[Hippieslayer]

This all sounds like "he's dead last" to me. Name one character worse than him.

Little Mac, Piranha Plant, Brawler. Those three for certain. Then there's a bunch of others at a similar level.

I really don't get this horrible neutral talk. DO you guys not bait? Do you not Read? Do you not condition? His neutral is okay to me, not good not bad. In fact its even rly Good vs a lot of the cast. It just falls apart a bit vs speedsters or characters with super oppressive ranged games like olimar.

Lack of safe moves is a problem. Bring back autocancel fair plz. But really, Zard has so many ways to just completely stuff his enemies attempts at approaching so long as you can get a soft read (ie read when the opponent is gonna go in, and if they are going in via air or ground).

For the air:

Bair and fair both have massive hitboxes and will trade favourably 9/10, startup can be such that you need to throw them out before the opponent throws their move out. But again: all you need is a soft read. Don't shorthop. Use full hop more, if you whiff, use those multiple jumps. Remember youre trying to throw out moves about 5-9 frames before the oponnent throws theirs out. So if you miss, the opponent Will also have thrown out some move and have missed maybe they went for a grounded attack. Situation is still perfectly salvagable.

For the ground: Ftilt rules. Other than that shorthopped fair is risky but will still stuff most things. So will flamethrower. You only need such risky options occasionally to discourage grabs however, since your options out of shield are ace. Zards frame 4 Jan for instance has more range than other frame 4 options allowing it to punish spaced aerials normally safe on shield.

Now this can get predictable easy so what do you do? You, bluff and bait and condition, and use your solid OOS game, and super good annoying poke Tool flamethrower to get in their heads and keep them guessing. How? There's so many ways to do it. Via retreating nairs, pivot-ftilts, bairs, or whatever. Basically you throw out some move which requires minimal dedication and risk, such as retreating nair or pivot-ftilt, or hell even dtilt of jab1 at a time when you DONT think the opponent is gonna attack you, you dont even intend for this move to hit. This might cost you a bit of stage control (but its worth it in the Long round). You do this to make it seem like you anticipated an attack when you didnt. And you do this to condition Them into expecting you to use certain moves. lt will screw with your opponents attempts to read you. Hell many people Will foolishly go in thinking they can punish you when they cant and thats when you get free attacks on Them. But the main purpose here is to set up conditions under which you can use your heavy hitting moves or your deadly OOS to deal massive dmg and take stage control or get and edgeguard situation.

What you also constantly do is scout for opportunities to get some extra damage in with flamethrower. Flamethrower does all THE things desribed in the earlier paragraph, key difference is you dont intentionally whiff flamethrower, thats unsafe. This is one of ur best neutral moves easily. Zards flamethrower is vastly superior to bowsers because of its flinching properties. It is much much safer. The fact that it does less damage isnt a big deal at all compared. Thats not the purpose of the move anyway. The purpose is to annoying the opponent with it and make them do unsafe stuff to avoid it such as doublejumping to try and get above it in order it, which puts them in a horrible position. You almost want to use flamethrower out of a jump to avoid opponents jumping over with a full or Short hop, Force them to burn both jumps to get past it. Aiming the flames Up or down actively in accordance with opponents position is crucial.

Some ways to use it:

Jump with your back towards the opponent, use like 2 jumps making it seem like youre looking to land a bair. Then fastfall b-reverse flamethrower from the apex of your jump aiming flames downwards. The opponent Will usually be on the ground since challeging bair in the air is unwise. They Will also often be at a range where they are just safe from a landing bair but still close enough to punish it. I should mention that you have of course conditioned the opponent into expecting a bair earlier. Since they want to be Close enough to punish bair, flamethrower will hit them. Even IF they shield it its not punishable so Long as you cancel in time, and if they sig in shield it Will shieldpoke them, and if they roll or run away or whatever they Will Still take some dmg. This Will annoy them.

-Predict that the opponent Will use a grounded projectile jump over it and flamethrower. Success.

-if the opponent likes to weave in and out trying to bait you while staying just outside of your typical range use flamethrower for some minimal poke dmg. The dmg isnt important. This Will make them feel uncomfortable and unable to play their regular neutral and might frustrate Them enough to make them do something stupid.

-A lot of People roll or airdodge away when they get hit by flamethrower. This is punishable with a dash attack if you cancel flamethrower Early enough. Its easy once you get a feel for it. Flamethrower+dash attack landed= you have stage control.

If you play annoying like this People Will start Being more reckless and agro. Thats when you utilize the fact that you can stuff them with massive hitboxes and you can punish them hard with your out of shield game.

Also: utilt is a quick and very good anti air moves, which combos into anything depending on percent and other stuff like the opponents weight fall speed and DI habitat. It even combos into sweetspot bair. Get a feel for how to combos from this move.

IMO Zards Main problem, not just in neutral but in general is that he is paired with 2 characters which can be played in a straightforward flowcharty manner. When people try to play zard like they do Ivy or squirtle he is utter garbage. Zard is all about Yomi.

@GamerZard Last page you asked if flamethrower was viable, that move is central to his neutral vs most of the cast. You didnt even know this yet you are very certain and categorical in your negative statements. Sorry but ur a perfect example of dunning Kruger syndrome in action.

 

[Deleted member]

Honestly, its obvious from some of the comments here that some of you just dont understand the character.

We kinda do; he was in Sm4sh, we saw his potential. But he was nerfed here, and it's hard to see potential in a character who people skip over and is said to be among the worst fighters due to various flaws. (I want to make a Melee Kirby comparison, but I don't think it would work.)

 

[ZephyrZ]

The longer the game is out, the more comfortable I think a lot of high level players are feeling with Charizard. I kind of knew Pandarian as the "Ivysaur guy", so this match came as a bit of a shock to me.

First that Wishes vs Light match and now this? I think Charizard is showing himself to be quite useful in a lot of matches where Ivysaur struggles somewhat.

 

[Hippieslayer]

We kinda do; he was in Sm4sh, we saw his potential. But he was nerfed here, and it's hard to see potential in a character who people skip over and is said to be among the worst fighters due to various flaws. (I want to make a Melee Kirby comparison, but I don't think it would work.)

Dude, you arent arguing, youre just describing the general attitude towards Charizard, the nature of which im already quite familiar with.

Thing is there's a reason people consider him useless; they dont know how to play him. Even Leffens Charizard is awful (though Wishes seems to be starting to get a grip on him by now).

I mained Zard throughout smash 4, the fact that hes not a new characters isnt that important, because very few used him in sm4sh. And of those that did use him many were bad (Anti's charizard for instance was embarassing to watch). There was really only 1 Guy who used Charizard to something near His full potential and that was Sharpy from the dominican republic. His sets are really the only ones showing what Charizard can do.

You need only go on YouTube and watch some pokemon trainer sets and compared them with those of Sharpy to see that people just suck at the characters. Its natural I suppose, Charizard is not an intuitive character, you must have strong fighting game fundamentals to use him proper since he relies on conditioning, baiting and reading.

Still it Kinda baffles me how people who only use him to randomly throw out flare Blitz and recover can be so sure that he is utterly useless, and that the problem doesnt lie with them and the fact that they cant play him.

Yeah zard got some uncalled for nerfs and as a solo char hes low Tier. But Guess what neither squirtle nor ivysaur are very good solo either, they are all designed to be flawed intenionally.

Honestly, People need to go and Force themselves to watch Sharpys sets, and then play uing zard as starting Pokémon and relying on him until they understand him.

Hes last in order in order in combination with him requiring brains to play means hes the least used, and when he is used its under stressful conditions at high percentages. Thats a recipe for disaster. You cant learn him under such conditions. So everyone gets a bad first impression of him, and then they continue to skip over him, like you said.

Truth is even tho Zard got nerfed he also got buffed, because he relies on reads and conditioning more than he ever did autocancel fair, and now you get to use 2 other characters before him, so by the time you do pull him out, youve already seen how the opponent plays, making him/her easier to read, and youve already had plenty of time to do some conditioning.

 

[Deleted member]

Just played 3 matches against 3 different fighters. I developed this controversial and unpopular Pokemon Trainer strategy that helped me win those 3 matches.

As the Trainer, I start with SoloZard for my 1st stock. Any lost stock will have me switch to Ivysaur to do some quick damage or kill, then back to Charizard for the rest of that next stock. I took notes on what the Zard's options are given the circumstances, what combos he has, and how he can bait and punish with Flare Blitz or Fly. Squirtle is never used.

So maybe he does have potential, he just requires a LOT to use decently.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Just played 3 matches against 3 different fighters. I developed this controversial and unpopular Pokemon Trainer strategy that helped me win those 3 matches.

As the Trainer, I start with SoloZard for my 1st stock. Any lost stock will have me switch to Ivysaur to do some quick damage or kill, then back to Charizard for the rest of that next stock. I took notes on what the Zard's options are given the circumstances, what combos he has, and how he can bait and punish with Flare Blitz or Fly. Squirtle is never used.

So maybe he does have potential, he just requires a LOT to use decently.

Nice, Keep at it and it Will get easier soon imo. But dont rely on flare Blitz and fly. Both are super risky moves which might win you a game but lose you a set if you use them too much. They are trumph cards which should be saved for when you truly need them. Overusage of flare Blitz is like the most Common thing people do wrong with zard.

Me I have to force myself not to start with Charizard because im so much worse at Ivy and squirter.

 

[1FC0]

-Nair can catch reads off ledge and MAYBE reads off stage, but only reads. His main neutral tool is gone, and they gave us nothing to replace it.

They gave him Squirtle and Ivysaur to replace it.

Charizard is now meant to be used as a part of a bigger whole. He is now a partial character. It really seems to me that they made him worse on purpose because they meant for Charizard to be reliant on the other Pokemon. Since Charizard has the best advantage, the greatest weight, and the best recovery out of the three I think that he will not be replaced completely by Squirtle or Ivysaur. He will always have his niche. But he is not a complete character anymore and I think that it will be very difficult to treat him as a complete character.

The Pokemon are different enough to be good in different parts of the battle even against the same character. Switching is now actually meaningful and part of the optimal strategy. Not due to some arbitrary mechanic like Stamina, but due to the intricacies of the game. I think that 2 characters for covering neutral is more than enough. Most characters only get 1 for covering neutral, PT gets double that amount.

Personally this is how I want it to be. There are many heavies in the game but there are only 2 characters with a dynamic playstyle. And Shulk is very different from Pokemon Trainer so really Pokemon Trainer is irreplaceable.

 

[Deleted member]

They gave him Squirtle and Ivysaur to replace it.

Charizard is now meant to be used as a part of a bigger whole. He is now a partial character. It really seems to me that they made him worse on purpose because they meant for Charizard to be reliant on the other Pokemon. Since Charizard has the best advantage, the greatest weight, and the best recovery out of the three I think that he will not be replaced completely by Squirtle or Ivysaur. He will always have his niche. But he is not a complete character anymore and I think that it will be very difficult to treat him as a complete character.

The Pokemon are different enough to be good in different parts of the battle even against the same character. Switching is now actually meaningful and part of the optimal strategy. Not due to some arbitrary mechanic like Stamina, but due to the intricacies of the game. I think that 2 characters for covering neutral is more than enough. Most characters only get 1 for covering neutral, PT gets double that amount.

Personally this is how I want it to be. There are many heavies in the game but there are only 2 characters with a dynamic playstyle. And Shulk is very different from Pokemon Trainer so really Pokemon Trainer is irreplaceable.

So would you say it's not a good idea to play as one Pokemon for most of the match and skim over another? That's what I've been doing with Charizard and Squirtle, respectively, which is completely different from how people play the Trainer (skipping Charizard). But it's worked quite a few times.

 

[1FC0]

So would you say it's not a good idea to play as one Pokemon for most of the match and skim over another? That's what I've been doing with Charizard and Squirtle, respectively, which is completely different from how people play the Trainer (skipping Charizard). But it's worked quite a few times.

You have to figure out for yourself to what extend it is worth it to practice with each Pokemon because this will depend on your preferred playstyle. Covering each other's weaknesses is good, but specialising in certain Pokemon and getting better with them than you could otherwise can be good too. People also tend to perform better in things that they enjoy. So you might also want to take in consideration which Pokemon that you enjoy using the most.

But what I meant is that I would not blame the developers for giving the individual Pokemon huge flaws, if those flaws are covered by other Pokemon and each Pokemon is still worth using, since PT is meant to be played as a team.

I also think that this mentality of PT as a team should be reflected in discussions like e.g. matchup discussions. E.g. if we say that Ivysaur has a bad matchup against R.O.B. because Ivysaur is easy to gimp and Charizard has a bad matchup because he has problems approaching and therefore the team of Ivysaur and Charizard is weak to R.O.B., then we are selling the team short since they can fight as Ivysaur while always recovering as Charizard and hence combine the best of both. This is how PT should be viewed IMO. But in this example if you really suck with Ivysaur or your Charizard is really great then you may still be better of trying to approach with Charizard instead of playing neutral with Ivysaur. (This is an example I actually have not thought this matchup through well.)