The Problem with Charizard

GamerZard

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#1
Out of every playable character, I see Charizard the least online. It seems he only exists to kill with Flare Blitz or Up Throw or return to the stage, but nothing beyond that.

Any specific reasons for his lack of use, especially compared to other superheavies?
 
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#2
Out of every playable character, I see Charizard the least online. It seems he only exists to kill with Flare Blitz or Up Throw or return to the stage, but nothing beyond that.

Any specific reasons for his lack of use, especially compared to other superheavies?
With Squirtle and Ivysaur having neutral covered in different ways, it falls to Charizard to be the utility player that comes in to cover the things they lack, which are more situational.

You don't think Bowser or DK would kill to be able to turn small and evasive when they don't have the upper hand or zone like Ivy to better condition foes for hard hits? Thanks to those two, you can have all the fun of pressuring with big damage, kill power and survivability without the usual heavy downsides if you play smart.
 
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#3
I think the issue comes down to Charizard not having a lot of safe moves. Aside from Nair, all of Charizard's aerials for instance have a lot of landing lag out of a short hop. Slow frame data and a big body make it so that Charizard puts himself at risk every time he tries to attack his opponent.

Squirtle and Ivysaur don't have the same problem. With Squirtle's small body and fast moves, he can more easily find an opening to slip into to start one of his combos. Ivysaur has a great projectile and Vines that lack a hurtbox, allowing her to safely poke at foes from a distance. This makes them much safer to use from a distance.

Although Charizard also has the highest reward of the three, a lot of competitive players don't like being forced to allow their victory to hinge on a gamble. Charizard still has a major clutch factor though. He has the best ground movement of any superheavy, which makes him a force to be reckoned with when he gets the momentum going. His juggle game is especially potent.

As for other superheavies, they tend to have more raw power then Charizard. While this does not always make them better (I'd argue Ganondorf and K.Rool aren't all that great themselves), it does make them more appealing to a lot of players since it makes their reward feel more like it justified the risk involved. It's also worth noting that Charizard is really similar to Ridley and Bowser in a lot of ways, so he kind of receives competition for players who want a heavy character who's strong in advantage. Then of course, as mentioned before, Ivysaur and Squirtle are simply there to directly compete with Charizard's usage in the team while other superheavies don't have such partners.
 
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#4
I think the issue comes down to Charizard not having a lot of safe moves. Aside from Nair, all of Charizard's aerials for instance have a lot of landing lag out of a short hop. Slow frame data and a big body make it so that Charizard puts himself at risk every time he tries to attack his opponent.

Squirtle and Ivysaur don't have the same problem. With Squirtle's small body and fast moves, he can more easily find an opening to slip into to start one of his combos. Ivysaur has a great projectile and Vines that lack a hurtbox, allowing her to safely poke at foes from a distance. This makes them much safer to use from a distance.

Although Charizard also has the highest reward of the three, a lot of competitive players don't like being forced to allow their victory to hinge on a gamble. Charizard still has a major clutch factor though. He has the best ground movement of any superheavy, which makes him a force to be reckoned with when he gets the momentum going. His juggle game is especially potent.

As for other superheavies, they tend to have more raw power then Charizard. While this does not always make them better (I'd argue Ganondorf and K.Rool aren't all that great themselves), it does make them more appealing to a lot of players since it makes their reward feel more like it justified the risk involved. It's also worth noting that Charizard is really similar to Ridley and Bowser in a lot of ways, so he kind of receives competition for players who want a heavy character who's strong in advantage. Then of course, as mentioned before, Ivysaur and Squirtle are simply there to directly compete with Charizard's usage in the team while other superheavies don't have such partners.
That last point can kind of be levied towards the other two as well. Squirtle on his own doesn't compare favourably to someone like Pichu who's just as fast and combo-proficient if not moreso, and has far less trouble sealing stocks. Meanwhile Ivy's probably not winning a ranged contest with Wolf, and with it's slow speed can't fluidly transition to rushdown like he can.

Individually they're all kind of sub par compared to specialists, but together they can adapt to nearly any situation.
 

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#5
Individually they're all kind of sub par compared to specialists, but together they can adapt to nearly any situation.
Some people stay with Ivy at dangerously high percents, despite Charizard being able to live much longer than it can at that point, possibly due to the above issues.
 

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#6
That last point can kind of be levied towards the other two as well. Squirtle on his own doesn't compare favourably to someone like Pichu who's just as fast and combo-proficient if not moreso, and has far less trouble sealing stocks. Meanwhile Ivy's probably not winning a ranged contest with Wolf, and with it's slow speed can't fluidly transition to rushdown like he can.

Individually they're all kind of sub par compared to specialists, but together they can adapt to nearly any situation.
That's definitely true for Squirtle. He does his job really well but doesn't have any real kills moves or a projectile like the thunder rats. I think that's why opinions on him seem kind of mixed - some think he's an amazing part of the team while others think he's passable but unnecessary.

Ivysaur is a bit in of an interesting case in that she's kind of a unique archetype of her own, mixing a bit of an aerial swordsman style with a fantastic zoning projectile for an incredible defensive kit with a bit of power to back it. She's still held back by a pretty bad disadvantage state, poor ground game, slow grab and horrible recovery however, which leads me to believe that she's just slightly overrated (but still very good).
 

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#7
That's definitely true for Squirtle. He does his job really well but doesn't have any real kills moves or a projectile like the thunder rats. I think that's why opinions on him seem kind of mixed - some think he's an amazing part of the team while others think he's passable but unnecessary.

Ivysaur is a bit in of an interesting case in that she's kind of a unique archetype of her own, mixing a bit of an aerial swordsman style with a fantastic zoning projectile for an incredible defensive kit with a bit of power to back it. She's still held back by a pretty bad disadvantage state, poor ground game, slow grab and horrible recovery however, which leads me to believe that she's just slightly overrated (but still very good).
So in other words, some people see "Pokemon Trainer" as "Ivysaur" if I'm not mistaken about Squirtle being "unnecessary" and with Charizard being the worst superheavy in the game by far (if this is true)?

I do kinda agree with the Wolf comparison; he's the only one I can think of with a similar playstyle to Ivysaur, but is indeed faster and better at recovering than him, along with having a reflector.
 

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#9
So in other words, some people see "Pokemon Trainer" as "Ivysaur" if I'm not mistaken about Squirtle being "unnecessary" and with Charizard being the worst superheavy in the game by far (if this is true)?
SoloZard being the worst heavy in the game? Hm I'd say that sadly might be the case, yeah.

By far though? No, not really. I don't think K.Rool or Ganondorf are that much better then him. Charizard still has raw speed going for him, being one of the top ten fastest characters on the ground so I think he might be one of the best superheavies at approaching after Donkey Kong (who's got an oppressive Dash Attack and much faster Bair), which is significant when superheavies are pretty bad at approaching overall. I also think he still has the best juggling of the super heavies which I think helps make up for the fact that he doesn't have quite as much raw power (although he still hits really hard compared to most of the cast).

Although some people view them this way, I think it's mistake to see PT as just Ivysaur. Perhaps you you wanted to use Ivysaur as a secondary it'd make sense because it's easier to learn one character to the side then three, but if someone really plans on actually fully maining PT like me they should play all three. Squirtle's small body makes it so that he can approach in a lot of match ups where Ivysaur is too slow to, and Charizard still has a major clutch factor behind him if you want to go for a read or attempt a crazy comeback. Honestly I scoff a little whenever I see someone puts SoloIvy at the same rank or higher then PT in their personal tier list.
 
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#10
That's definitely true for Squirtle. He does his job really well but doesn't have any real kills moves or a projectile like the thunder rats. I think that's why opinions on him seem kind of mixed - some think he's an amazing part of the team while others think he's passable but unnecessary.

Ivysaur is a bit in of an interesting case in that she's kind of a unique archetype of her own, mixing a bit of an aerial swordsman style with a fantastic zoning projectile for an incredible defensive kit with a bit of power to back it. She's still held back by a pretty bad disadvantage state, poor ground game, slow grab and horrible recovery however, which leads me to believe that she's just slightly overrated (but still very good).
Fantastic I think is pushing the effectiveness of Razor Leaf a bit. Certainly the controlled distance and ability to start combos off close range hits make it very solid, but it still has a fairly slow rate of fire and is not very strong at a distance. The piercing does give it a unique advantage against explosives though, making a mockery of Snakes trying to protect themselves with grenades.

Maybe a better comparison would be Mii Swordfighter. Depending on it's loadout it can either be an even more potent zoner, be more consistent at landing kills and nearly always has a better recovery. Chakram in partcular is practically Razor Leaf on steroids.
 
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#11
I was talking to Alphicans last weekend about this, he said the reason Ivy is getting a lot of love is the same reason Cloud got it in S4; big hitboxes with good zoning tools and also with good sets of traps. Makes sense that she would have a pretty bad recovery on top of a bad grab to balance her out.

I do agree ultimately though, that it seems to work best when you play the strengths of each Pokemon. Makes sense why Charizard is the one that plays cleanup, and tbh that isn't really a bad thing.
 

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#12
Zard neutral is HORRENDOUS. Just about everything is unsafe on block. Playing Zard is waiting for your opponent to slip up and then capitalizing on it, or getting into advantage with Ivysaur and then switching to finish off your opponent. If they gave him an aerial that could safely apply pressure, that would be so beneficial for him.
 

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#14
I kinda wonder if sakurai made charizard like this on purpose, just to kinda reference how the old games basically made you carry “HM slaves”. Because honestly, as much as I love charizard that’s kinda how he feels.

hope 3.0 buffs him but I sadly don’t think too highly of that possibility
 

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#15
Isn't this superheavies in general?
True, but Charizard is even more so. For instance, DK has his reliable bair that he can use to control space. K rool has his crown. Ganon has nair. Charizard, unfortunately, is left with none of these moves. His opponent can stay in shield and he can't do much about it due to the absence of a shield breaker move like most heavies have and a slow grab. To me, Zard is the classic Smash superheavy before superheavies became good (or at least decent).
 
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#16
Isn't this superheavies in general?
Not necessarily; Dedede, Bowser and K. Rool for instance can be punished for their neutrals as well, but they are still considered much safer due to the fact that they have a fast startup and little ending lag. Charziards tail sweep is slow enough that it gives the opponent ample time to react, given that it covers a small area each frame of the attack and has to circle around him once. Compare that to say K. Rool, whose whole body becomes a hitbox during the duration of the attack and has super armor on top of that. In the case the only way to deal with attack is to block it and punish. With charizard you can challenge with an attack or block it.
 
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#17
3.0 patch could make or break SoloZard in competitive play. With the Hit boxes being a mess (especially up-tilt) if they don't put in the time to fix them people might just drop Zard all together even when using Pokemon Trainer as a whole. Kinda makes me sad to just see Zard being used as a punching bag instead of a legit threat.
 
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#18
3.0 patch could make or break SoloZard in competitive play. With the Hit boxes being a mess (especially up-tilt) if they don't put in the time to fix them people might just drop Zard all together even when using Pokemon Trainer as a whole. Kinda makes me sad to just see Zard being used as a punching bag instead of a legit threat.
Except no one is going to use even the "good" mons solo because they all have crippling issues. Squirtle is extremely light and can hardly kill outside slow, low ranged smashes or water gun gimps, with only passable recovery. Ivy has bad OOS options, can't deal with superior camping well on average, gets juggled harder than Zard does and without him, edgeguarding Ivy would be ridiculously easy.

They're both very efficient in neutral for different reasons; it would be somewhat redundant for Charizard to have a comparable one.
 

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#19
Except no one is going to use even the "good" mons solo because they all have crippling issues. Squirtle is extremely light and can hardly kill outside slow, low ranged smashes or water gun gimps, with only passable recovery. Ivy has bad OOS options, can't deal with superior camping well on average, gets juggled harder than Zard does and without him, edgeguarding Ivy would be ridiculously easy.

They're both very efficient in neutral for different reasons; it would be somewhat redundant for Charizard to have a comparable one.
Are you saying Charizard needs no buffs and should stay a horrendous character?
 
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#20
Are you saying Charizard needs no buffs and should stay a horrendous character?
No, but no matter what kind of buffs you give Charizard (unless they severely overcompensate and suddenly becomes more efficient than Squirtle for getting in and comboing or something), he will always be the least used of the three because he specializes in more situational states than neutral.

Look at Squirtle more closely, and you'll see he's more nerfed than anything, with only a buff to Withdraw, removal of stamina and system changes counterbalancing those nerfs. This shows that the team is intent on making sure no member of the team stands too high compared to the rest, as Squirtle was considered to be by far the best member in Brawl, with the Trainer's bottom-tier status doing nothing to dissuade them.
 
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#21
They shouldn't be so scared to make each of them viable but have certain ones still be more useful in certain situations. Each character in the game has weaknesses and strengths but just because you can switch to a new character mid game doesn't mean you should force-ably make them useless on their own.
 

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#22
The fact of the matter is, Charizard almost has no practical use at this point in time. Many top PT mains will just cycle back to Squirtle, even when at high percents. Yes, all three are better in specific circumstances. The problem with Charizard is that his only pros are in these circumstantial situations, and outside of them he is basically useless. Should he have a neutral as good as Squirtle and Ivy? No. But should he at least HAVE a neutral? For sure.
 

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#23
The fact of the matter is, Charizard almost has no practical use at this point in time. Many top PT mains will just cycle back to Squirtle, even when at high percents. Yes, all three are better in specific circumstances. The problem with Charizard is that his only pros are in these circumstantial situations, and outside of them he is basically useless. Should he have a neutral as good as Squirtle and Ivy? No. But should he at least HAVE a neutral? For sure.
No, but no matter what kind of buffs you give Charizard (unless they severely overcompensate and suddenly becomes more efficient than Squirtle for getting in and comboing or something), he will always be the least used of the three because he specializes in more situational states than neutral.
Then his neutral needs to be buffed, if anything. For a game trying to be balanced throughout the roster, Charizard's potential is jarringly lacking right now.
 
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#24
Charizard doesn't need a great neutral, but he does need a better one. Even if his hair was super buffed, he would still be a less desirable option than Ivy due to Ivy's versatility. The problem with Charizard is that too many of his attacks are situational and unsafe. His moves don't need to be super fast and bug, just big or fast enough to make them an option.
 
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#25
Charizard doesn't need a great neutral, but he does need a better one. Even if his hair was super buffed, he would still be a less desirable option than Ivy due to Ivy's versatility. The problem with Charizard is that too many of his attacks are situational and unsafe. His moves don't need to be super fast and bug, just big or fast enough to make them an option.
No amount of reasonable buffs in the world will change the fact that it's better to be a small ninja turtle or leafy fortress to win neutral. Pros won't use Zard any differently even if he gets a "better" neutral, only stubborn loyalists will.

I for one don't get the fixation on his nair when he can always switch to Squirtle's or any other of his combo-starting aerials.

The fact of the matter is, Charizard almost has no practical use at this point in time. Many top PT mains will just cycle back to Squirtle, even when at high percents. Yes, all three are better in specific circumstances. The problem with Charizard is that his only pros are in these circumstantial situations, and outside of them he is basically useless. Should he have a neutral as good as Squirtle and Ivy? No. But should he at least HAVE a neutral? For sure.
You sure they're not just realizing they're getting to the point where even Charizard will not survive another hit, and may as well switch to a more difficult target to make that stock last as long as possible? Getting too fixated on being one mon is one of the worst things you can do as Trainer, because it makes you predictable.
 

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#26
No amount of reasonable buffs in the world will change the fact that it's better to be a small ninja turtle or leafy fortress to win neutral. Pros won't use Zard any differently even if he gets a "better" neutral, only stubborn loyalists will.

I for one don't get the fixation on his nair when he can always switch to Squirtle's or any other of his combo-starting aerials.



You sure they're not just realizing they're getting to the point where even Charizard will not survive another hit, and may as well switch to a more difficult target to make that stock last as long as possible? Getting too fixated on being one mon is one of the worst things you can do as Trainer, because it makes you predictable.
I think that's the problem... Charizard is completely overshadowed by the other two, so it is almost always better to be one of those two. Smash has shown that superheavies can be good or at least decent (look at Sm4sh DK and Bowser), so Zard could be changed to be more than just hot trash. He does not have to be good, just good enough to be useful and viable in a way that PT mains could actually use him as a real character and not for just finishing stocks and living long.
 
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#27
I think that's the problem... Charizard is completely overshadowed by the other two, so it is almost always better to be one of those two. Smash has shown that superheavies can be good or at least decent (look at Sm4sh DK and Bowser), so Zard could be changed to be more than just hot trash. He does not have to be good, just good enough to be useful and viable in a way that PT mains could actually use him as a real character and not for just finishing stocks and living long.
Name one situation where it would be ideal to be this theoretical Charizard in a neutral scenario.
 

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#28
Name one situation where it would be ideal to be this theoretical Charizard in a neutral scenario.
For instance, if Zard fair could autocancel out of a short hop, he could pressure opponents will a strong and safe option. This alone would drastically improve his usefulness. Since Zard fair is a strong killing move that puts the opponent in a very unfavorable situation, it would give Zard a neutral tool that the other Pokemon lack (since Ivy's best aerial in neutral is bair and that does not kill, and none of Squirtle's aerials kill).
 

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#29
Really all I want is short hop Fair to auto cancel, and for Nair to have bigger hitbox. Then at the very least he'd be similar to Smash 4 'Zard. Which, can we talk about how weird it is that they nerfed 'Zard in the transition? He wasn't even a good character.
 

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#30
Really all I want is short hop Fair to auto cancel, and for Nair to have bigger hitbox. Then at the very least he'd be similar to Smash 4 'Zard. Which, can we talk about how weird it is that they nerfed 'Zard in the transition? He wasn't even a good character.
They nerfed a good amount of bad characters from Sm4sh to Ultimate, and I don't understand why... this game is very well balanced but some decisions have confused me, like nerfing Bowser Jr and buffing Pika. And I agree, Sm4sh Zard was at least good enough that he was usable, and even making Zard as mediocre as that in Ultimate would greatly improve his viability as part of the trio.
 

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#31
They nerfed a good amount of bad characters from Sm4sh to Ultimate, and I don't understand why... this game is very well balanced but some decisions have confused me, like nerfing Bowser Jr and buffing Pika. And I agree, Sm4sh Zard was at least good enough that he was usable, and even making Zard as mediocre as that in Ultimate would greatly improve his viability as part of the trio.
It really makes me wonder what Zard was intended to be used for? Was he just supposed to be a tank and nothing else? It feels like he's just supposed to be a punching bag and they only gave him attacks because they had to. It's very strange.
 
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#32
Can't forget free-for-alls in balancing too. Zard's Flare Blitz and great movement speed help score many kills on distracted opponents before they can react.
 

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#33
Can't forget free-for-alls in balancing too. Zard's Flare Blitz and great movement speed help score many kills on distracted opponents before they can react.
But Free-For-Alls aren't mainstream. 1v1s and maybe team battles are, and Charizard's punishability increases there to the point where he can't Flame Blitz without getting hit. Hell, it can't even stop Ganondorf's Stomp, so its recovery usefulness isn't all that great.

But I digress. Movement speed and Fly are all he has going for him. Is Flamethrower even viable or is Flame Breath the better of the two?
 
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Call_Me_Red

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#34
But Free-For-Alls aren't mainstream. 1v1s and maybe team battles are, and Charizard's punishability increases there to the point where he can't Flame Blitz without getting hit. Hell, it can't even stop Ganondorf's Stomp, so its recovery usefulness isn't all that great.

But I digress. Movement speed and Fly are all he has going for him. Is Flamethrower even viable or is Flame Breath the better of the two?
Flamethrower isn't bad, I haven't tested but I'm pretty sure it has a flinch hurtbox through out the entire range, but Bowser's does a lot more damage and only makes you flinch up close. Getting stuck in the flames does ~18% for Zard and ~30% for Bowser.

I definitely think it's a solid move, though. Great for pressuring recovery, good spacing tool, and can be used to stuff certain approaches. It has its uses if used sparingly.
 
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#35
No amount of reasonable buffs in the world will change the fact that it's better to be a small ninja turtle or leafy fortress to win neutral. Pros won't use Zard any differently even if he gets a "better" neutral, only stubborn loyalists will.

I for one don't get the fixation on his nair when he can always switch to Squirtle's or any other of his combo-starting aerials.[/QU
The idea is that Charizard needs buffs to fulfill his role better, not to replace one of the other pokemon. Theoretically Charizard is meant to finish off opponents and survive for ridiculous periods of time. The problem right now is that Charizard is so unsafe and bad that players find it safer to switch to squirtle at high percentages and stay as Ivy when the opponent is well beyond kill range. But honestly I believe that if Charziard got enough reasonable buffs, then pros would start using him. Not as a focal point no, but for his intended role.

the fixation with his nair comes from the point that it is a bad move in a game where having a reliable nair is important. Also Charizard doesn't have many options OOS. The problem with Charizard is that his options are so situational that he becomes highly predictable and is extremely easy to get into a disadvantage state. As long as he remains a large predictable punching bag, players are going to see him more as a liability than an asset. By buffing the time frames of his weaker moves, no he doesn't compete with squirtle or Ivysaur but instead it becomes easier to put an opponent into a disadvantage state, make trades, and set up kills. This makes him more viable simply because if I can rely on Charizard to do his intended job then I'll feel safer switching from Ivy when I'm at higher percentages to get that extra survivability and won't feel like crap when I have to switch off of Ivy to avoid getting gimped.
 
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#36
Anyone else remember that Flare Blitz ledge snap recovery from 4? Pepperidge Farm remembers and so do I. Hell Flare ledge snap > switch out would be a good option for recovery. Charizard needs a life purpose in the PT lineup otherwise what was the point of putting him back in the ball. At this point if switching was made like shulk's powers people would legit just skip over Zard in most situations. Zard's whole purpose is literally that one pokemon you sacrifice so that you can use a full heal or revive and that saddens me.
 

Zachmac

Delusional Zard Loyalist
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#37
Zard neutral is kind of bad but it's not unsalvageable, it just revolves around getting reads. I'm not talking hard F-smash reads, I'm talking about knowing what move to approach with or what habit to look out for. Nair to land on opponents and beat out short ranged attacks, grab to beat shield, flamethrower or Bair if they try to wall you out, ect. Running up and shielding to get an Up Smash punish is also really effective, especially since Zard's fantastic ground mobility makes it very easy to mess up your opponent's spacing. This is really effective against sword characters who are dependent on good spacing to wall their opponents out.

His hitboxes really aren't a problem. So what if Up Tilt doesn't hit in front of him? That's not Up Tilt's job - he has a frame 4 jab and frame 6 Usmash for that. U-Tilt is a juggling and platform pressure tool you use when your opponent is above your head, and it's massive disjoint is really useful for that. Fair isn't a very good neutral tool but it's lethal in advantage. Bair is the only hitbox I really take issue with since it feels really hard to consistently land it on grounded opponents sometimes, but when you do it's worth it, especially if you get the tipper.

I don't get what people have against his Nair. It's better then Ivysaur's, imo. It's sort of bad out of shield sure but he's got Up Smash and Fly for that. Meanwhile Nair move frame traps pretty well and true combos into jab. It can be oppressive if you have stage control and your opponent is trying to jump over you, especially if they're trying to escape from the ledge in particular. It's also fantastic juggling tool with Zard's buffed air speed, especially since it can catch air dodges thanks to its large lingering hitbox. It's also a nifty edgeguarding tool for similar reasons.

The nice thing is that you can use Squirtle or Ivysaur to download and/or condition the opponent first, then use Charizard to capitalize on that. That's what I always do. Some matches I hardly use Zard at all, but in other ones I use Squirt and Ivy to safely poke around until I figure out how to use Zard optimally.

People are giving up on Zard far too fast I feel. Maybe my opinion as a crazy loyalist doesn't mean much, but I'm getting a ton of mileage out of him. At the very least, he feels better off then he was in Smash 4.


Edit: And Charizard wasn't just nerfed into Ultimate, he's received some significant buffs as well. The biggest one, imo, being the sizable boost to his air speed. Not only does this improve his approach, but it also makes his already bonkers advantage stage even stronger. It even helps his disadvantage a little. Up Smash now connects consistently, so no more having opponents falling out of it for no good reason. Up Tilt's hitbox is massive now. Flare Blitz is a better kill move then it used to be. Meanwhile the only nerf I feel is kind of significant is Fair no longer autocancles.
 
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Call_Me_Red

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 29, 2018
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#38
Zard neutral is kind of bad but it's not unsalvageable, it just revolves around getting reads. I'm not talking hard F-smash reads, I'm talking about knowing what move to approach with or what habit to look out for. Nair to land on opponents and beat out short ranged attacks, grab to beat shield, flamethrower or Bair if they try to wall you out, ect. Running up and shielding to get an Up Smash punish is also really effective, especially since Zard's fantastic ground mobility makes it very easy to mess up your opponent's spacing. This is really effective against sword characters who are dependent on good spacing to wall their opponents out.

His hitboxes really aren't a problem. So what if Up Tilt doesn't hit in front of him? That's not Up Tilt's job - he has a frame 4 jab and frame 6 Usmash for that. U-Tilt is a juggling and platform pressure tool you use when your opponent is above your head, and it's massive disjoint is really useful for that. Fair isn't a very good neutral tool but it's lethal in advantage. Bair is the only hitbox I really take issue with since it feels really hard to consistently land it on grounded opponents sometimes, but when you do it's worth it, especially if you get the tipper.

I don't get what people have against his Nair. It's better then Ivysaur's, imo. It's sort of bad out of shield sure but he's got Up Smash and Fly for that. Meanwhile Nair move frame traps pretty well and true combos into jab. It can be oppressive if you have stage control and your opponent is trying to jump over you, especially if they're trying to escape from the ledge in particular. It's also fantastic juggling tool with Zard's buffed air speed, especially since it can catch air dodges thanks to its large lingering hitbox. It's also a nifty edgeguarding tool for similar reasons.

The nice thing is that you can use Squirtle or Ivysaur to download and/or condition the opponent first, then use Charizard to capitalize on that. That's what I always do. Some matches I hardly use Zard at all, but in other ones I use Squirt and Ivy to safely poke around until I figure out how to use Zard optimally.

People are giving up on Zard far too fast I feel. Maybe my opinion as a crazy loyalist doesn't mean much, but I'm getting a ton of mileage out of him. At the very least, he feels better off then he was in Smash 4.


Edit: And Charizard wasn't just nerfed into Ultimate, he's received some significant buffs as well. The biggest one, imo, being the sizable boost to his air speed. Not only does this improve his approach, but it also makes his already bonkers advantage stage even stronger. It even helps his disadvantage a little. Up Smash now connects consistently, so no more having opponents falling out of it for no good reason. Up Tilt's hitbox is massive now. Flare Blitz is a better kill move then it used to be. Meanwhile the only nerf I feel is kind of significant is Fair no longer autocancles.
So a couple of things. I'm a Zard loyalist also, but they did him pretty dirty.

-His neutral is complete trash. The main hitboxes people complain about are his neutral tools. Fair no longer autocancels, so it doesn't matter how good it is, it's no longer effective in neutral. Nair still autocancels thankfully, but they nerfed the hitboxes so much that is not even useful any more. Also, I'm not positive but it feels like they significantly nerfed jab's hitboxes. It feels like they just don't reach far enough any more.

-Nair can catch reads off ledge and MAYBE reads off stage, but only reads. His main neutral tool is gone, and they gave us nothing to replace it. They even took away his second tool, fair.

-I do like your plan to condition as Squirtle and Ivy, but most people won't play the same way against Zard as the other two.

-"he feels better off then he was in Smash 4" I definitely do not agree.

-"Flare Blitz is a better kill move then it used to be" I don't know why you think this. It feels so inconsistent. I think the hitbox is smaller, and for some reason the second hit, yknow the good hit, never connects. I've hit characters straight on and they only get hit with the first hitbox. I'm not sure why this happens, but I always feel cheated. This is high on my list of wanted buffs.

All in all, I don't think Zard is the worst character in the game, but definitely bottom 5.
 
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GamerZard

Smash Journeyman
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#39
So a couple of things. I'm a Zard loyalist also, but they did him pretty dirty.

-His neutral is complete trash. The main hitboxes people complain about are his neutral tools. Fair no longer autocancels, so it doesn't matter how good it is, it's no longer effective in neutral. Nair still autocancels thankfully, but they nerfed the hitboxes so much that is not even useful any more. Also, I'm not positive but it feels like they significantly nerfed jab's hitboxes. It feels like they just don't reach far enough any more.

-Nair can catch reads off ledge and MAYBE reads off stage, but only reads. His main neutral tool is gone, and they gave us nothing to replace it. They even took away his second tool, fair.

-I do like your plan to condition as Squirtle and Ivy, but most people won't play the same way against Zard as the other two.

-"he feels better off then he was in Smash 4" I definitely do not agree.

-"Flare Blitz is a better kill move then it used to be" I don't know why you think this. It feels so inconsistent. I think the hitbox is smaller, and for some reason the second hit, yknow the good hit, never connects. I've hit characters straight on and they only get hit with the first hitbox. I'm not sure why this happens, but I always feel cheated. This is high on my list of wanted buffs.

All in all, I don't think Zard is the worst character in the game, but definitely bottom 5.
This all sounds like "he's dead last" to me. Name one character worse than him.
 
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