The ol' Fair's not as good as it used to be.

[NESSBOUNDER]

Anyone else having problems with Ness's Fair? I personally think it sucks now. It doesn't keep people in as well as it did in Melee, doesn't do as much damage, is hard to apply for offensive purposes, and what's most annoying is that it just seems the opponent rides along on the very outside of the move and takes what, like 6% every time it hits? In Melee, this move sucked you right in to the center and was super satisfying to land.

It also seems to get me punished a lot. Against computers and human players, because there's no way to L-cancel the lag any more, and it's shield grabbable from a short hop.

I need my faith restored in this move. I don't like the new Dair either.

 

[PK-ow!]

Anyone else having problems with Ness's Fair? I personally think it sucks now. It doesn't keep people in as well as it did in Melee, doesn't do as much damage, is hard to apply for offensive purposes, and what's most annoying is that it just seems the opponent rides along on the very outside of the move and takes what, like 6% every time it hits? In Melee, this move sucked you right in to the center and was super satisfying to land.

It also seems to get me punished a lot. Against computers and human players, because there's no way to L-cancel the lag any more, and it's shield grabbable from a short hop.

I need my faith restored in this move. I don't like the new Dair either.

It means you use it very differently. You can use it with null momentum on a shorthop (DI-ing backwards if you fear this lag you speak of so highly).

Now that it doesn't "suck people in" as you call it, you can pull of new things, like the double jump fair, where you zap them but then float up wards in a rush of momentum - usually to defend yourself with a dair, or bair, sometimes another fair.

You can also fast fall past people in the air and get off this move, zipping past them to safety.
It's a different move. I'm sorry if it doesn't seem "satisfying" to you anymore. I personally think the jump tricks you can pull off now are amazing, and some of the most appreciable aesthetic elements of the game.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

I can see it's still useful as a defensive move, but wouldn't it just be so much better if it actually shocked the crud out of your opponent for 13% and carried them with you like it did in Melee?

 

[Phoenix Down]

Yeah I use it as a defensive move, then follow up with a PK Fire or Thunder.

 

[Ademisk]

Still carries, short hop DI makes it usable offensively, RAR rocks defensively, fair can lead into SH dair spike off the edge.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

It's better.

Seriously you think PK flash is good and that hitting people with PK thunder 2 isn't that hard. You're either really bad with Ness or you're on drugs.

 

[__Crazy__]

It's better.

Seriously you think PK flash is good and that hitting people with PK thunder 2 isn't that hard. You're either really bad with Ness or you're on drugs.

It isn't very hard to hit people with PKT2.

 

[NoNessNoProblem]

It isn't very hard to hit people with PKT2.

neither is using dair and fair effectively. its really fun to edgehog with it as well. if there recovering just fair them back and grab the ledge. it sorta pushes them back. i personally love fair and dair.dair is a good combo starter as it forces them into nesses strength which is the air and u can perform consecutive headbutts. shorthopped fair and dair are also difficult to dodge if u play with it alot

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

It's better.

Seriously you think PK flash is good and that hitting people with PK thunder 2 isn't that hard. You're either really bad with Ness or you're on drugs.

I like how you don't actually give any reasons or backing behind your claims, nor add anything interesting towards the topic.

PK flash is really good. It's waaaay better than PK Freeze. It activates pretty much immediately as soon as it's released and makes an excellent umbrella against people coming down from above. It comes out really fast too, and has decent power after half a second of charging. Your opponent can air dodge it, yes, but by that point you'll just blow it up and recover from the lag before they've come out of their air dodge and then follow up with up tilt or something like that, or if they're a floaty character, and PK Flash is already coming down, you can just hold it to fake them out and then detonate it after their invincibility wears off. I've gotten plenty of hits with this move. Sounds to me like you're just not very skilled at using it.

Oh, and you can combo into PK Thunder 2 at close range with a tail whip.

 

[thesage]

It's a defensive move now. It's just different. Still is good though.

 

[Earthbound360]

Idk, at first, it doesnt feel as fun as it did in Melee, but it is still a godly fair. IDK why I still like it though. Maybe it just takessome getting used to. I still spam it like I was playing Ness in melee.

RARing this to stop rollers is fun. So is ground cancelling it. Use it late in a shrthop to lead into tilts. Also, it seems just aseffective at pushing people off the stage and even though it has lost some range, it doesnt seems hard for me to rack up that damage compared to Melee.

IMO, I think you just need to get used to it. Its like PKT. Its changed, more offensive than recovering, and the change takes some getting used to.

Dair? DAIR!? How can you not love the new dair? Its better than Melee by a lot! Its got more range, less startup, and as of now, it has been confirmed that it is NOT meteor cancellable! If you have trouble hitting with it, again, its just the change you probably need to get used to since Ness seems to get a funky little push during the startup. Try this.

After knocking an opponent off stage and high at a 45 degree angle, jump out, fair them, double jump, and dair them as you rise. Works awesome.

Hang on the edge to force them to recover above the edge. Press down, and double jump and dair as you rise. I learned this from a friend of mine who did this with ROB and Wolf. It works well with Ness cuz of his specialmidair jump.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Idk, at first, it doesnt feel as fun as it did in Melee, but it is still a godly fair. IDK why I still like it though. Maybe it just takessome getting used to. I still spam it like I was playing Ness in melee.

RARing this to stop rollers is fun. So is ground cancelling it. Use it late in a shrthop to lead into tilts. Also, it seems just aseffective at pushing people off the stage and even though it has lost some range, it doesnt seems hard for me to rack up that damage compared to Melee.

IMO, I think you just need to get used to it. Its like PKT. Its changed, more offensive than recovering, and the change takes some getting used to.

Dair? DAIR!? How can you not love the new dair? Its better than Melee by a lot! Its got more range, less startup, and as of now, it has been confirmed that it is NOT meteor cancellable! If you have trouble hitting with it, again, its just the change you probably need to get used to since Ness seems to get a funky little push during the startup. Try this.

After knocking an opponent off stage and high at a 45 degree angle, jump out, fair them, double jump, and dair them as you rise. Works awesome.

Hang on the edge to force them to recover above the edge. Press down, and double jump and dair as you rise. I learned this from a friend of mine who did this with ROB and Wolf. It works well with Ness cuz of his specialmidair jump.

Yeah, sounds like I just need to get used to the new Dair. I like the sound of those properties.

However, the reason why I played Ness in Melee was because of the "feel" of his moves, which just agreed with my playing style so much.

The Fair and the Dair just don't feel as good as they used to. That must be throwing me off slightly so I can't appreciate them as much.

So far, it seems like Lucas has picked up the old Ness feel that I liked so much in Melee. It could also just be that I miss the DJC and Lucas doesn't seem to incur the urge for me to try and do it instinctively, because his jump is actually pretty normal compared to Ness's.

Still, I just don't like the new Fair. It feels like I'm just brushing lightly at the opponent's face with a psychic feather duster and shooing them away.

 

[N.OW]

Yeah the fair isnt as good i think, its still good but you have to choose the right times to use it. The dair on the other hand is pretty amazing, and I usually will spam dair the most of any aerial, especially when approaching. I like to use dair on sheilded people and land behind them, then use utilt.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

One thing I do like about the new Dair is how easy it is to cancel all lag when you're using it. The window for that is huge.

Unfortunately, you can't use it to combo anyway, since meteors on the ground have very little actual stun time now.

 

[Aevin]

Seriously you think PK flash is good and that hitting people with PK thunder 2 isn't that hard. You're either really bad with Ness or you're on drugs.

Or there's a third possibility--that he's completely correct in both cases. PK Flash no longer has that hesitation just before it detonates that says to all opponents, "dodge or shield now!" It's easier to take them by surprise. Also, sending it above with a simple tap creates a 9% damage blast that is separated from your body and can be used for protection. Since Ness's lag after the move is almost nonexistent, when the opponent air dodges this it's easy to take advantage of it. Have you checked out how fast he recovers once the move detonates? Seriously, there's little risk in at least trying the move on opponents with a recovery time like that. They can outdo a headbutt or up tilt with a down air, but nothing gets through PK Flash. Even when its explosion is small with relatively little knockback, no attack can make it disappear and not hit. Oh, and it's easy to hit people with PKT2 if you have a mind for tricks and good aim.

As for the forward aerial ... I've been playing Brawl so exclusively that I kind of forget how it differed in Melee. But I can say this, the move is great. They might have reduced the damage, but it could be because they added speed to the recovery. I can chain these things together well, and it seems like a little piece of it almost always zaps an opponent. Repeated forward airs makes a wall that shorter ranged opponents have trouble getting through. On a side note, this move's great for fighting Olimar, since it serves as an electric shield to zap all thrown Pikmin except the electric type. (Yes, they classify the fair as an electric based move).

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Or there's a third possibility--that he's completely correct in both cases. PK Flash no longer has that hesitation just before it detonates that says to all opponents, "dodge or shield now!" It's easier to take them by surprise. Also, sending it above with a simple tap creates a 9% damage blast that is separated from your body and can be used for protection. Since Ness's lag after the move is almost nonexistent, when the opponent air dodges this it's easy to take advantage of it. Have you checked out how fast he recovers once the move detonates? Seriously, there's little risk in at least trying the move on opponents with a recovery time like that. Oh, and it's easy to hit people with PKT2 if you have a mind for tricks and good aim.

As for the forward aerial ... I've been playing Brawl so exclusively that I kind of forget how it differed in Melee. But I can say this, the move is great. They might have reduced the damage, but it could be because they added speed to the recovery. I can chain these things together well, and it seems like a little piece of it almost always zaps an opponent.

Exactly! I LOVE the New PK Flash. There are only 2 things I don't like about it.

1. the hitbox doesn't stay out as long as it did in Melee.

2. I don't like the new animation. I miss the big psychedelic green spike explosion from Melee.

Besides that though, I just love how "compact" PK Flash feels. If it had the charging graphic and properties from Brawl and the explosion graphic from Melee, it'd be like the best PK Flash ever.

 

[Raheelp]

I'm having trouble hitting with the F-air. Can anyone give me some tips?

I feel like if you get in close enough to sweetspot it you are going to get punished.

 

[Earthbound360]

As for the forward aerial ... I've been playing Brawl so exclusively that I kind of forget how it differed in Melee. But I can say this, the move is great. They might have reduced the damage, but it could be because they added speed to the recovery. I can chain these things together well, and it seems like a little piece of it almost always zaps an opponent. Repeated forward airs makes a wall that shorter ranged opponents have trouble getting through. On a side note, this move's great for fighting Olimar, since it serves as an electric shield to zap all thrown Pikmin except the electric type. (Yes, they classify the fair as an electric based move).

This is kinda what I meant. It still feels good once you get used to it, but no Melee has kinda made me forget.

 

[Conda]

I'm having trouble hitting with the F-air. Can anyone give me some tips?

I feel like if you get in close enough to sweetspot it you are going to get punished.

Agreed.
I've been doing the in and out approach, meaning SH towards, and fall away.
However, the opponent can usually retaliate once I get close enough to hit them with the fair.
That, and they usually shield it very easily, hence the problem I have with being punished for it.

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Not to mention that even if you actually hit with it, unless you're on your way down, you're probably going to be punished for using the move immediately from a short hop whether it hits or not.

And that's a puny 1% damage hit most of the time.

 

[PK Starstorm]

I kinda fell the same way. When I fight lv.9 Lucas', he uses his nair so much, and it hurts. When i try to hit him my fair I only do like 2% unless I'm really close and i might get him with 6 or the full 11%.

 

[EdreesesPieces]

I need to try using PK Flash. I haven't been using at all. I think I've used it twice. I didn't realize it was so good, time to incorporate!

 

[Conda]

Fair is absolutely awesome against aerial opponents. I just can't get it to land reliably when the opponent is on the ground. If it does land safely, I need to keep the distance between my enemy... resulting in around 2-3% damage. :S

 

[Cornbread]

at very low percents you can pull off a short hopped down air, short hopped headbutt (without any worry of escaped) and with a slight chance of escape a rising neutral air. Its a good way to get ahead early.

 

[SuPa050]

i love his Fair. two Fairs in one short hopped jump.

PK flash isnt in my main repertoire yet, dont really need it much but cant hurt to get used to it in some situations

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

i love his Fair. two Fairs in one short hopped jump.

PK flash isnt in my main repertoire yet, dont really need it much but cant hurt to get used to it in some situations

I can't do 2 Fairs out of one short hop, because by the time the first one has finished lagging, the opponent has already hit me.

 

[zaf]

the only answer i have to the fair problem is.....well..... go Lucas. lol
haha all jokes asides, i do think lucas has a better fair. But yea i dont find ness' fair that great or usefull

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

the only answer i have to the fair problem is.....well..... go Lucas. lol
haha all jokes asides, i do think lucas has a better fair. But yea i dont find ness' fair that great or usefull

Lucas has Ness's old Fair all compacted into one solid hit. <3 It still can't compare to the zappy zappy goodness, but hey, that's what his Nair is for.

 

[__Crazy__]

One thing that I really like doing with the fair is setting up for a dair over the edge.

If your opponent is slightly above you and over or near the edge, do a double jump fair and then spike them with the dair. >

It works fairly (>_>) consistently for me.

 

[Raheelp]

the only answer i have to the fair problem is.....well..... go Lucas. lol
haha all jokes asides, i do think lucas has a better fair. But yea i dont find ness' fair that great or usefull

Werd, gimme Lucas's nair and fair.

Cool trick crazy, i'll give it a shot. Once in awhile I try to fthrow to dair. But I'm still getting use to added air time you get with some of the aerials.

 

[Gindler]

The Fair does have limited uses, I usually use it right after a Dthrow. But the Dair PWNSSS, that thing can kill at like 10% as a meteor spike if you sweetspot it (which isn't too hard), I usually kick Fthrow off edge, spike...DEAD. It's always so fun to do that, you can easily get a free kill every match because people hardly have any ness knowledge.

 

[Conda]

Fair is pretty much the best defensive aerial anybody has...

 

[Raheelp]

What do you mean best defensive aerial? It hard has any range

 

[Raheelp]

I change my mind. Today I played against character with shorter range (kirby) and I found fair to be effective.

 

[Conda]

Fair is what allows Ness to approach so many different people with worse or similar range/priority. It's what makes fighting Metaknight possible and so forth.
Sure, Ness's fair may not be the automatic 11% that Lucas's is, but it has way more utility, vertical range, and chainability in the air. Heck, it's what saves Ness's recovery in most cases and what makes it easy to return to the stage with hardly anything to worry about.

Also, while the 3% hits may suck if you skim them with the fair, at least you hit them and can easily follow up with another attack.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

A tail whip? What the heck?

How the hell could you get hit by PK thunder 2. They have to have used a super laggy move or something. How can you combo into it exactly? Combos hardly even exist in Brawl.

 

[thesage]

How the hell could you get hit by PK thunder 2. They have to have used a super laggy move or something.

That's the beauty of hitting with it. ^_^

Also watch the Ness combo vid called "illuminati"

 

[Conda]

A tail whip? What the heck?

How the hell could you get hit by PK thunder 2. They have to have used a super laggy move or something. How can you combo into it exactly? Combos hardly even exist in Brawl.

People tend to see Ness using PKT and say "Ha! I'm going to punish him!" and then Ness, instead of trying to hit the opponent, hits himself and gets a PKT2 hit.

 

[__Crazy__]

Yeah I find I get the most hits with PKT2 when they are in the air above me. PK Thunder Shockblast FTW!!!

Oh and back to the subject of the fair, when you mean RARing it to hit rolling opponents do you mean running in the direction they roll and then RARing it as you pass them?

 

[abit_rusty]

Well I don't know about everyone else, but I love his fair. Good for approaching and retreating, and following up after popping them up. Better than in melee IMO, and if jump cancelling was still in, the new fair would be godly.