The Official "Should/Will Metaknight be banned?" Thread (LISTEN TO THE SBR PODCAST!)

[salaboB]

wow. um. it totally depends on your preference of cheeseburgers over hamburgers or vice versa? what does this have to do with anything

It's the same as the definition of "too good".

 

[GofG]

What the hell? November 2002? What are you doing posting in a dumb thread like this? You should be in the SBR.

 

[Veng]

Cheeseburgers are definitely better.

Double Quarter Pounder W/ Cheese please.

 

[stingers]

Holy ****, it's a Veng post!

Veng is automatically right. 100% of the time. Love that guy.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yuna is correct. Yuna wouldn't argue about something like that unless he actually knew the science behind it. i.e. for the larger percentage of the population, how many more taste buds give a pleasant sensation with cheeseburgers versus hamburgers.

XD fanboy alert Fanboy alert!

Sonic, what you say may have some merit, but looking at things in a black-and-white manner like that is never good, and can only hurt your argument against Yuna anyway.

a) in what manner is this abnormally black-and-white?
b) what argument with Yuna? I just posted it because it's true not to help a ficticious argument you claim that I'm having.

 

[Veng]

O_o

do i know you o.o

 

[Yuna]

brinboy

Yuna comes into a topic about Ike HRC strategies. Person #1 says that bat dropped Dairs are better. Yuna says spamming Fsmash is better.

Who's right?

You can prove someone wrong by actually doing better than him using an alternate strategy in HRC. You can prove I'm right with evidence, too. I don't see you even trying to, though.

is yuna a guy or girl? O.o

I thought I posted a picture earlier today. Can't you tell?!

He's popular because he's good.
He's good because he's popular.

Circular reasoning. Not proof of anything. Random irrelevant statements in a debate where we demand proof.

It kinda works both ways in that scenario, except that everytime it loops, the "good" and "popular" aspect slightly increase, due to his developing meta game.

The thing is that a character is only as good as he is designed to be. It's not like in real life where one can have potentially unlimited potential 'til you hit that human ability barrier. Meta Knight was designed to be only as good as he can be.

If he hits that wall, he will stop. If everyone else still keeps on getting better against him, his prowess will decrease. I used the word if several times, though.

No he doesn't.

Why? Is merely popularity enough? Stagnation is enough for a ban no matter the reason?

In that case, according to the competitive fighting game players, he'll never be "good enough" to get banned unless something big stops his progression in the game (as I said, this most likely won't happen).

Why? Why can't he possible become "too good"?! He just has to actually become "too good". All he needs to do is become better than he is today without anyone else getting better at fighting him, hitting that threshold.

How in the world could this be impossible?!

I could answer those questions in a heartbeat if I knew their futures, just as much as I could answer the question for MKs position. It's not completely certain, but there's no doubt that if nothing develops soon, MK's getting the boot.

You cannot jail someone for a future crime. Have you not seen "Minority Report" (I haven't, but that's irrelevant)?

Also, I've specifically stated repeatedly that I'm not against banning MK ever. And yes, if the game changes in such a way that MK actually does become "too good", then, yes, I will want him banned. But I am against banning him based on a speculative future.

But his domination has been significant enough to set off arguments like this, now has it? (rhetorical)

So was Sheik's. And people complain about everything. Something happening =/= It's right.

Is there any way for you to describe for me how the situation was for Sheik? That, and Sheik had weakness in the form of her crap recovery.

She also had a chaingrab on a ton of the cast, Dthrow + Upair on the rest, F-tilt to everything on everyone, needles, Fair, Nair, Jab combos, Bair, did I mention the chaingrabbing? Speed, priority, etc., etc., etc. Oh, and tons of other characters have worse recoveries, or, rather, she could edgeguard them better than they could edgeguard her.

Your "what if"s are just as much speculation as mine. Nothing is known for sure. The only way we'll know is if we give it a try.

My "what ifs" are rhetorical. I only ask you what you would do if my "what ifs" are true. You want to ban something without it first being proven "too good" and "needs to be banned". It's two different things. For one thing, one is entirely theoretical.

What's so wrong with banning, then unbanning if "nothing" happens? (again, not my view, just curious)

How the hell would we magically find ways to make Meta less good if he's banned? What, you think dedicate Meta Game players would spend hours upon hours trying to beat him using other characters?!

Also, can I lock you up for murder even if you haven't murdered anyone and then let you go 6 months later and everything will be fine? I mean, if there's enough evidence to make it look like you might have done it. It's not enough to prove it beyond reasonable doubt, but it's enough in a world of "Let's predict the future!" and all.

If I do it and you get released 6 months later, is it all fine and dandy? Can we be best friends?

What if he doesn't?

Then the question of whether or not he should be banned won't even come up. Why don't you just answer the rhetorical question instead of arguing whether or not it'll come to pass? A simple "Yes" or "No" is enough.

And to answer the question, yes. I don't want to be bias in my judgment now, don't I? If he fills the same criterion as MK, then so be it.

How hard that must've been for you to actually write out instead of doing so five posts ago.

Well, everyone's definition of "reasonable" is subjective, so they must think it's unreasonable if they choose to pick MK to win.

No, they mustn't (you used the word "must", now you live with it). They could just have wanted the easiest path to victory, like so many do.

And just because they think something does not make it true. 200 years ago, the majority in the U.S. did not believe in racial equality. A black person sleeping with a white person could get the black person or both hanged and law enforcement would've ignored it most of the time.

Many people, the majority for a time, in fact, thought this. Is this automatically right?

By the way, you never answered my question: "What is your definition of reasonable?"

Yes I did. On many occasions.
"60:40 in all of his match-ups is borderline not-reasonable, at least by SWF standards. If it ever boils down to that, I'll come back to it. Until such time, there's still resonable chance."

You're a strawman. And yes, it was a bad analogy.

Using a bad analogy that doesn't prove the point in question but proves another, similar point, is strawmanning.

And I'd rather pay 2.89.

Not according to your "Do it pre-emptively!" logic, though.

Also, the Iran analogy is terrible. Iran doesn't already rule the world.

This was never a part of the analogy. The analogy is:
Pre-emptive "ban" on something that might one day become "too good".

 

[GofG]

You claim that Yuna is blind and will not concede his argument regardless of what evidence has been presented either way?

How is this not black and white?

 

[Terios the Hedgehog]

What the hell? November 2002? What are you doing posting in a dumb thread like this? You should be in the SBR.

You don't get in the SBR by being here forever. You get in for not being an idiot.


However I did go through a LOT of old posts and see that some....odd people got in and NEVER posted again....

 

[brinboy789]

Answer the question, Brinboy.

uh i prefer cheeseburgers because i like cheese but tahts just me

LOL. You don't even get it. Stop trying to support Yuna, you are making him look bad.

how. im supporting him because he supports me in this arguement. how am i making him look bad?

It's the same as the definition of "too good".

your prerefence of cheese or not is the same as "too" good?

Cheeseburgers are definitely better.

Double Quarter Pounder W/ Cheese please.

YES.

 

[salaboB]

* Me Touches You All In Places You Didn't Know Could Be Touched *

My spleen!

 

[GofG]

Yuna, the people who are arguing for MK's ban are arguing that he is too good RIGHT NOW, not in the future.

 

[brinboy789]

You claim that Yuna is blind and will not concede his argument regardless of what evidence has been presented either way?

How is this not black and white?

from what i've seen/heard, yuna will not post something or say something unless there is proof. hence the 8k posts and huge multiquote walls O.o

 

[adumbrodeus]

Wall of multi-quote alert!

Just find your name via "control+f", I probably responded to all the regulars at least once.

Yoshi - still hasnt been proved yet

Where the heck have you been?

also, dk gets tornado *****

That's not it AT ALL, tornado is not a viable approach against DK because every single move he has beats it. What you have to do is space like Marth. From that distance, everything DK does is punishable, and MK can safely poke.

yoshis CG do not do enough to make it equal

It's a neutral, 45-55.

MK gets bair *****. bair outranges any of his attacks INCLUDING THE EPIC TORNADO OF DOOM

Properly timed shuttle loop destroys bair.

...Shield...

Too much shieldstun...

Ok...so I found you a reliable way to stop Snake's ftilt and utilt...

...that was simple...

...what did your point...prove...? Why did you...ask...

That question...?

PUNISH, not stop.

Totally different things.

EDIT @ DanGR: Why not fib on matchups a little? If you are totally truthful and concede that your character has a bad matchup against the King of Brawl, people won't want to play your character and your metagame will weaken. It's ALWAYS in your best interest to over-promote your character. Being realistic does not win you new mainers.

Because match-ups are supposed to be useful, not advertisement...

Fib and people don't know where to counter-pick.

Shuttleloop comes out in like a frame, and witht the glide attack there is zero lag after words...

No, Uair is his fastest attack.

If it came out in a frame, Falco wouldn't be able to chaingrab him (see Marth's Dolphin Slash for proof, that's how he avoids chaingrabs).

If such ways exist, they will be found. If a character overcentralizes the metagame, the chance of finding ways around them will actually increase.

Which I mentioned like 50 pages ago.

In what was are they a governmental body?
in what way are they our voice?
the SBR has never spoken to represent other people. They make their statements for the sake of competition. Not people.

What they state is not official and isn't something that should automatically be accepted.
it isn't that TO's are not brazen enough to go against the SBR, its the the fact that TO's have no reason to disagree with the SBR.

The SBR's decisions are often very well backed and are renowned for having some of the best minds concerning smash and so, their decisions are the typically the best.

In short, the SBR is not the equivalent of Yu-gi-Oh's Konami.
Again what they state is a suggestion its not official.

The fact that it's not official actually is the reason WHY they act like a governmental body, they govern solely because of our assent.

A little social contract theory here, but fundamentally they function like a governmental body, and in the sense that they have no power of enforcement, they are closest to the US supreme court.

if i went up to a random person who has no knowledge of the SF series and asked them if yun was a male or female, what would be thier answer?

Male.

Generally female names end in "e" or "a" in Western languages. With no previous knowledge, the average speaker would default to "it sounds like a guy's name, so it must be a guy".

We have Pokemaniacs in our mists who thought Wobbuffet made the game "unfun" and banned it.

Please stop making stupid statements... Pokemon DID NOT ban him for making the game "unfun".

Best result for him is both characters get knocked out if played at all competently.

Then there's the issue of 112 turns of nothing if two of them fight.

No, if an equivalent were in Smash, he'd be banned about as fast as Akuma.

Yuna -

What part of "You might as well call Halo a fighter" escaped you Yuna? At least Halo has normal physics and HP in a traditional sence.

Smash is an unusual fighter, but it is a fighter, it's just based on ring-outs (and all that entails) and the physics are more exaggerated, otherwise it plays like a great deal like a traditional fighter.

Why? Pokémon is one community. And from what I hear, a very weird, immature and Scrubby community. The others are more well-established and level headed. And their bans aren't as stupid. Banning a character for making the game "unfun"... peh!

They didn't do that, The Halloween Captain is wrong.

His information was wrong before, why are you trusting him here?

Banning MK is a waste of time because then MK players will just fall back on Snake and if Snake gets banned then Snake players will just fall back on the next best thing and so on.

Marth, we already discussed this in depth, without MK, Marth is the best.

I think the point they're arguing is that MK is so far beyond the rest of the cast that there will not be any more bans needed.

The above.

The degree to which the character hinders the game is most important.
Hence the ban on Akuma but not on Old sagat.

Remember that Old Sagat is boarderline as well, close enough that he's banned in Japan.

I'm sorry, are you saying Capcom vs. SNK2, Super Street Fighter II: Turbo, Soul Calibur II (and possibly III), Street Fighter III: 3rd Strike and others are "too small" in cast?

Well, Capcom vs. SNK2 is team-based, that does significantly change the issue.

wow yuna we can see you're quite the intelligent poster

Ummm, ok. Keep in mind that MK is WAY down in Yuna's playlist, and he barely uses him.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

You claim that Yuna is blind and will not concede his argument regardless of what evidence has been presented either way?

How is this not black and white?

you confuse me with your improper use of metaphors.

that isn't even somehting that can be looked at in a black and white fashion... is there a shades of grey way of looking at that?

please, enlighten me as to what the heck you mean.

 

[GofG]

Yes, there are. Resilience to change one's opinions is not binary.

edit: Oh wait, I see. There was a miscommunication.

You said that Yuna was blind. I said this was looking at it as being black-and-white; you should be arguing that his resilience to change is high (I don't think it is).

 

[Veng]

My Vote: MK broken aka BAN HIM
Give me a double quarter pounder w/ cheese and.... MK is definitely not broekn

 

[stingers]

uh i prefer cheeseburgers because i like cheese but tahts just me

BLATANT YUNA FANBOYISM

Ban this child.

Also Yuna i want to see your picture!

 

[brinboy789]

...Properly timed shuttle loop destroys bair....

properly timed everything goes through anything. well for the post part. read Vulcan55's signature.

 

[brinboy789]

BLATANT YUNA FANBOYISM

Ban this child.

Also Yuna i want to see your picture!

^ this = pure BS. yuna fanboy my *** i agree with him because hes on my side in this arguement. if you said that yuna supported hamburgers and other person supported cheeseburgers i would obviously pick cheeseburgers. pure BS. that was the most pathetic post ive seen in a while

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

Yes, there are. Resilience to change one's opinions is not binary.

edit: Oh wait, I see. There was a miscommunication.

You said that Yuna was blind. I said this was looking at it as being black-and-white; you should be arguing that his resilience to change is high (I don't think it is).

oh... see... where I come from we call that a hyperbole... you know, exagerration for the sake of emphasis.... or, wait... is it exagerration?

Has anyone ever actually heard Yuna admit that he's wrong?

 

[GofG]

He usually words it as

"I concede."

and yes, it happens often, if you frequent the same threads as he does.


In any case, you seem to be implying that Yuna being stubborn right now, in not going along with the ban. How many people support the MK ban? Is this thread even a decent sample of them? How many people in this thread support, as opposed to oppose?

 

[adumbrodeus]

properly timed everything goes through anything. well for the post part. read Vulcan55's signature.

No, they don't... At all.

Not when the hitboxes are both interacting. In this case, we're dealing with a shuttle loop on reaction.

 

[stingers]

Has anyone ever actually heard Yuna admit that he's wrong?

...Uh

He's never been wrong, you ****-for-brains ****bag.

Go back to Nigeria you homophobic fag. I hate you. So much.

 

[brinboy789]

...Uh

He's never been wrong, you ****-for-brains ****bag.

Go back to Nigeria you homophobic fag. I hate you. So much.

go back to nigeria? racist to black people? whats your race i will freakin pwn you so hard no matter what race you are.

No, they don't... At all.

Not when the hitboxes are both interacting. In this case, we're dealing with a shuttle loop on reaction.

lol did you read vulcan55's sig

"cant a properly timed shine go through a knee?"
"cant a properly timed KNEE go through a shine"

a properly timed attack (FOR THE MOST PART) probably can go through another attack

 

[GofG]

Brinboy, you have the right attitude.

SMASHBOARDS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

Also, you are just wrong, and need to understand how priority works. Go away.

 

[brinboy789]

Brinboy, you have the right attitude.

SMASHBOARDS IS SERIOUS BUSINESS.

am i not being serious? yunas the one with the arguements, im just backing them up because thats what i believe is right

 

[GofG]

aaahahahahhhhghhhahahahahahahaha

OH MY GOD I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING

 

[stingers]

aaahahahahhhhghhhahahahahahahaha

OH MY GOD I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING

this

 

[brinboy789]

aaahahahahhhhghhhahahahahahahaha

OH MY GOD I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING

im inventing a new acronym

^ QFF

quote for fail

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

He usually words it as

"I concede."

and yes, it happens often, if you frequent the same threads as he does.


In any case, you seem to be implying that Yuna being stubborn right now, in not going along with the ban. How many people support the MK ban? Is this thread even a decent sample of them? How many people in this thread support, as opposed to oppose?

like I know what the support v. opposition rate is here.... much less which people actually understand enough to have a valid opinion.... what does that have to do with anything anyway?

oh and I don't follow Yuna around to see the oh so rare concession... I've never seen it. Even when he's obviously wrong.

...Uh

He's never been wrong, you ****-for-brains ****bag.

Go back to Nigeria you homophobic fag. I hate you. So much.

ummm... so besides sensor bypassing to make a nonsensical insult that I am, in fact, afraid of myself, do you think you've acheived anything?

 

[stingers]

sarcasm and irony are serious business

do most people actually think that after I was finished with yuna i've been serious at all

oh my god

 

[GofG]

When has he been obviously wrong that you have seen? I have never seen it.

 

[DanGR]

What are you guys arguing over? You need to be discussing what constitutes a ban and why- not making quirky remarks accusing people of fanboyism. Either discuss what's in the OP or get out.

 

[stingers]

somehow it does not surprise me that DanGR has 2.6k posts and joined in 2008

 

[GofG]

DanGR, it's not like this thread matters. the SBR decides everything, or maybe Ankoku's secret Illuminati-style decisionmaking NWO groups.

 

[salaboB]

Are you kidding? While Brinboy is on my side and appreciate his passion, he uses faulty information and debating points all over the place. It's a lot of "In my opinion", "I think" and things that are just wrong.

This is doing exactly what I said you do, so I hope you weren't trying to prove me wrong.

"Are you kidding?" is an implication that my serious point is just a joke.

Assuming I mean Brinboy is good at debating and/or doing it well is misinterpreting what I said. You then proceed to shoot down this misinterpretation. I didn't say he was good at it, I said he provided a focus for us to reply to, so that actual progress on the topic could be made.

This is really quite enough for me, this time I really am done responding to you.

 

[Yuna]

It's not attacking their character, it's attacking their qualifications.

Explain a difference there. Go on, explain it. I want to see it. Because your "explanation" of how they differ up there wasn't exactly "valid", considering you never said anything like "I believe you are blah blah blah". And if you did, I'd like to see it. I could very easily be wrong here

For instance, you are claiming that your Ad Hominem attack is, in fact, not an Ad Hominem attack, but instead just an attack on the attributes of a person. This is a point that you can afford to concede, especially since you are wrong, and yet you continue to argue it.

Also, the Iran analogy is terrible. Iran doesn't already rule the world.

Are you serious man?

You're the most arrogant person I've ever met.

It's not as much arrogance as belittling the average SWF-user. Smart people would realize this.

Thank you, Brinboy. I will wait for Yuna's response, and ignore everything you say to me in the future.

Stingers, do you actually live in a city with the word "Hick" in its name? How far away from Raleigh is it? I want to go there. Do they know how to use decimals? I remember one time, I was in Boone, and gas cost 31 dollars and 9 cents per gallon.

Oh noes, such colorful ad hominems! Hot closet sex NAO!

dojo forever.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention. I now have something to quote Dojo on on this matter. Too bad he doesn't have SBR access to argue this there. Not surprisingly, he argues pretty much the same things I argue, only more "nicely" (the fool!).

Yuna and some random guy none of us have ever heard of are arguing about whether cheeseburgers or hamburgers are better. Yuna argues that cheeseburgers are better. Random Guy argues that hamburgers are better. Now, completely and totally objectively, which of these two is correct?

That was not, in any way, comparable to what went down in the posts you criticized me for writing.

I also see how you make a habit of ignoring all ad hominems, real or perceived ones under your special Encyclopedia Stingers135ic definition, except mine. Well, I'll give you credit for actually replying to Gofg's post. But apparently his ad hominems aren't bad enough for you to even call ad honinems!

Stuff.

Take my challenge, prove your accusations by picking apart my posts. Until such time you can do that, please stay quiet.

Everyone credible and who actually know how to debate mysteriously all agree on that I'm doing everything right debate-wise and that you're all wrong (you as in the people claiming I'm bad at debating and using bad debating tactics or whatever).

I guess I just managed to somehow hoodwinkle them all.

What the hell? November 2002? What are you doing posting in a dumb thread like this? You should be in the SBR.

You should see the things he writes.

XD fanboy alert Fanboy alert!

Yes, anyone on my side is obviously a fanboy while everyone on your side is just right.

Xa) in what manner is this abnormally black-and-white?
b) what argument with Yuna? I just posted it because it's true not to help a ficticious argument you claim that I'm having.

Prove it with actual evidence instead of blanket statements.

Yuna, the people who are arguing for MK's ban are arguing that he is too good RIGHT NOW, not in the future.

I know this. Some are arguing that we should ban him now because although he isn't "too good" right now, he will/might be in the future, though.

I'm perfectly capable of arguing against both sets of people and keeping the arguments separate. You should've seen me for the past 100+ pages, that's what I've been doing all this time (multi-tasking several arguments at the same time).

Which I mentioned like 50 pages ago.

It's quite funny how your only quotes of me had you not actually disagreeing with me.

The thing with this thread is that people don't care if something has been said before. Either they didn't read it and didn't bother reading back (and 50 pages ago actually qualifies it as being "too old") or they just flat out don't care and you have to repeat the same things to them for them to get it (sometimes they never get it).

Jack Keiser is new to the thread. He most probably didn't see your post.

They didn't do that, The Halloween Captain is wrong.

His information was wrong before, why are you trusting him here?

I'm not trusting him more than I can throw him (and I'm scrawn-y). I'm arguing under the hypothetical assumption that he's actually right and I'm just too lazy to write out "Even if you are right" every time I have to when replying to him because that'd require me to do it every single time I reply to him!

Well, Capcom vs. SNK2 is team-based, that does significantly change the issue.

Found another one:
One character totally dominating everyone else would still be a probably in CvS2. And the thing with CvS2 is that it has four (I think) Top Tiers. So the tournament scene revolves around those 4 alone... in a game of 3-man teams.

should be arguing that his resilience to change is high (I don't think it is).

My resilience to change is not high at all. For one thing, I change my hair color constantly. I make changes in my every day life all the time.

My resilience to change is not high. I just demand logical reasons for change.

Has anyone ever actually heard Yuna admit that he's wrong?

I've done it several times in the past 6 pages alone.

Do you actually, you know, read this thread?

am i not being serious? yunas the one with the arguements, im just backing them up because thats what i believe is right

I quite often find myself disagreeing with your "facts", actually. We're on the "same" side on whether or not MK should be banned (we hold different opinions in what is required for him to be banned, though, quite probably).

That's pretty much where it ends most of the time. Please do not attempt to fight my battles for me, I can do that just fine. Also, what you might want to use to defend my arguments is not necessarily something I would use myself or even agree with.

oh and I don't follow Yuna around to see the oh so rare concession... I've never seen it. Even when he's obviously wrong.

It happened a few times in the past few pages. And you thinking I'm wrong =/= I am wrong, especially when you make the mistake of misinterpreting what I say most of the time, anyway. It's not necessarily deliberate, but you seem to often think I'm saying one thing when I'm clearly not, probably because of the tone in which I say it.

Also, this:

When has he been obviously wrong that you have seen? I have never seen it.

Sonic The Hedgedawg, how about actually take my challenge? Show me where I'm so obviously wrong. I'm apparently wrong so much it should be easy to find an example where I'm at least remotely wrong.

 

[Sonic The Hedgedawg]

What are you guys arguing over? You need to be discussing what constitutes a ban and why- not making quirky remarks accusing people of fanboyism. Either discuss what's in the OP or get out.

oh come on it was fun... at least since yuna and hi fanboy brigade come in and ruin any reasonable discussion. I felt I should do my part to curb that... and at least I exposed a few fanboys XD.

but DanGR is right... as stuffy as you two are saying that he is.

MK should be banned... why?

because ther'e no good reason not to be MK. Nobody else matters because there's never an occasion where MK isn't the better choice than whoever your oponent is (unless he too is MK)... no matter the stage.

that constitutes a ban in my eyes.

 

[stingers]

I'm apparently wrong so much it should be easy to find an example where I'm at least remotely wrong.

Thanks for further proving my point about you being the Most Arrogant User on SWF 2008™

That better be a forum award this year