The Official SBR Brawl Tier List v1.0

[The_Altrox]

Too bad GameFAQs didn't approve. They follow Silverflash's list, which is pretty good, since he's educated in Brawl going ons.

 

[Red Hawk One]

Seems about right; I'm not really surprised by anything on it.

 

[Ryusuta]

It's not that GameFAQs follows Silverflash blindly and simply hates SBR's list for no reason. In fact, a LOT of people disagree with many of Sliverflash's placements.

The difference between Silverflash (and Longhornfan before him) and the SBR is that he very specifically cites his reasoning for EVERY character's positioning, both specifically and in general. Even if you don't agree with his reasoning (for instance, he whores out tournament results too much over match-ups and metagame, in my opinion), at least he makes it clear.

The problem with this list is that some of the positions seem like vague guesses and no specific rationale was given for ANY of it.

 

[Rhubarbo]

Prior to Brawl's release, Wario was coming off as a typical low tier character due to his gimmicky moves and awkward jump style. I'm glad to see him much higher than I expected ^_^

I might pick up Lucario now. I was toying around with him for a bit, but now I'm more convinced.

 

[Anytime_Minutes]

Psh

i refuse to believe ddd is better than game and watch.
anyone who like to prove me wrong?
message me

 

[Lord Ba'al]

i refuse to believe ddd is better than game and watch.
anyone who like to prove me wrong?
message me

I believe many characters are better than Dedede. But apparently tournament results show otherwise.........

 

[ComboBaker]

No way is Jiggs Worse than Samus.

 

[SlickSlicer]

Whaaa---WHAT issss this nonsanse?! FFfFFfff alll youze guise! I am still grate youse buncha hooligans whaddyahaveagainstcaptain *hic* falcon?! why I oughta fal *hic* falconnnn punch yas to obliv *hic* oblivion...

*cries*

I useta be so grate...

Illl just wallow in my own *hic* moonshine vomitand despair.

 

[ComboBaker]

Though, I must admit, this is a pretty okay tier list. I really like the diversity in charachters. Though in all honesty, tiers don't seem to be manipulating who plays who as much as it did in the melee days. I mean we have really great, interesting players playing all kinds of different charachters in an abundance i have never seen. So even if jiggs isn't considered very great, i should just let it roll off my back.

 

[Natch]

Okay, I've seen a lot of people talking about Lucas and PT, so I figured I'll go into those a little more indepth because I feel like it/


First up, we have Lucas.

I'll not go into detail about how I came across Lucas, but as soon as I did, I fell in love with the little guy. Being a former Pikachu main in Melee, I was used to a quick playstyle. Lucas isn't as quick as Pika, obviously, but he's fast enough for my tastes. Long story short, his playstyle just felt right.

I am disapointed with Lucas' placement in the tier list, but I can see why he's there. He's got the whole grab release thing(**** you Marth, **** you), and his matchups against the higher tiered characters isn't exactly steller. In fact, if weren't for his ATs and upsides, he'd be much lower than he is now, if that sounds possible. GW is a ***** for him to take on, what with his Bair and Bucket, and Marth's Fair and Uber-Godly-Broken-Dancing-Blade are no picnic either. Oh yah, and he has a hard time against MK, but who doesn't? (Admittedly better than most, given he has the greatest number of reliable moves to break the whorenado)

On the flipside, Lucas has good measures for spacing. There's PK Fire, Ftilt, Fair, PK Fire, and his Jab Combo. His lag is pretty low in general, barring a few moves-PK Love and Dsmash come to mind. His combo ability is good enough for me, what with Nairs and Dairs leading into so many options. Love nothing more than to go Nair-Jab Combo-PK Freeze. Freeze hits like, never, but it's a good pressure move and can give the opponent the impression that you're right in their face even if you're on the other side of FD. His jumps are just sex, and PKT2, while gimpable, is a very versitile recovery if you can aim it right. His tether increases his sweetspot range(and doesn't leave you "falling" if you miss, IIRC), and Zap Jump is just insane beyond words.

But while he has a lot of good moves(I mean a lot of good moves), the higher tiered guys also seem to have something better. Ftilt good for spacing? DK and SNAKE say hi. Think your Fair has some really good priority? Marth disagrees. You have a nice Jab combo, really? Ike's has super armor.

Really, the only thing unique to Lucas that he has over the rest of the cast are his diverse specials. You have spacing, controlled projectile/human missile, and absorb projectile that also *****slaps you into oblivion(at 120%+, but still. Nothing's more satisfying than absorbing a fully charged Aura Sphere from a Lucario at 150%, then KOing him into the next country.)

I personally think Lucas can go higher, but if I may be realistic here, my guess is he'll reach Mid tier, tops. Maybe bottom of high tier, if people learn how to abuse his projectiles really well.


Now, next up on our list is Pokemon Trainer.

I noticed a lot of people talking about how PT has the most untapped potentional as of now, but he's just not too popular and not really being used well enough. I agree with this sentiment completly. Individually, and as a whole, PT generally sucks. Zard is combo fodder, Squirtle has mediocore recovery and a lack of kill moves(though what kill moves he DOES have are above average), and Ivy is gimp city.

They have their strong points, such as Zard being able to ****ing horizontal spike with Fair, use some awesome spacing in the form of Flamethrower, use Rock Smash as a psuedo "Counter", and some strong AND fast kill moves in the form of Bair and Dtilt. Despite the low height of his jumps, Fly is actually a pretty good recovery, and Zard has a very large sweepspotting range for the ledge.

Ivy is great at anti-air spacing, with Vine Whip, Bullet Seed, Razor(both shorthopped and otherwise), Dair, Uair, Bair, Fa...basically every aerial except Nair. Ground spacing is pretty good too, what with Razor Leaf(again), Ftilt, Jab, Dsmash, and Dtilt. She's very defensive, and just standing still, she can cover the following areas:

1. Behind her on the ground(Dsmash).
2. In front of her on the ground(Razor Lead, Dsmash, Jab, Dtilt, Ftilt).
3. Directly above her.(Bullet Seed. This is on the ground, remember?)
4. Diagonally in the air in front of her(Vine Whip).
5. In front of her in the air(Razor Leaf to an extent)

All things considered, she's got some pretty good things at her disposal. And now...

To Squirtle.

Squirtle can combo, and combo, and combo, and combo. Oh, and he can Hyrdoplane and Shellshift every which way too. His airspeed and ability to change is among the best in the game. He's got good, lagless aerials all around-Dair and Bair have sex priority too. Jab combo is 2nd fastest startupt in the game at 2 frames(Only beaten by ZSS and tied with...somebody I think.) Two of his tilts are good for launching people into the air, while Ftilt is nice to spacing, and his Dthrow is a nice quick kill move. Water Gun can gimp if you know how to use it-nothing more fun than to kill somebody with an attack that does absolutely no damage. Again, like the other pokemon, he's got a lot going for him. Oh yeah, Shellshifting and Hyrdoplaning too.

All of this praise can be safely responded with the following:

IN THEORY.

PT sounds good on paper. Switch between Pokes to give you a favorable matchup. But that's the thing. PTs Pokes have bad matchups in general. PT's pokes are good, but everyone else is just better.

Actually, let's face it. PT as a whole sucks. Majorly. So why are people saying he has potentional if he sucks so much? It might be for the above (non)reason, but I think they're still right. The reason PT has so much potentional is because he's all over the map. He has all 3 weight classes, he ****ing defies the stereotype of speed by making Squirtle the slowest runner and Zard tied with Pikachu for 7th fastest in the game. IN THE GAME. Zard is a powerhouse, Ivy is defensive as hell and Squirtle kills via death by a thousand cuts. And the pace at which they fight is very different too.

PT's untapped potentional does not come from his raw stasticis, from quanitfiable measurements. It's potentional relies on the player and his skill as using Pokemon Change. Sure, if it's a favorable matchup, keep your poke out. But if you're having trouble on all 3 pokes, try this.

1. Damage opponent enough.
2. Knock them far enough away.
3. Use Pokemon change.
4. Repeat.

It's the change of pace that will mess up an opponent. You have no idea how many I've lost Zard in a stock, only to have Squirtle come out, run up, Grab, and Dthrow the instant afterwards. Usually landing me a kill. That huge change of pace from Zard to Squirtle-and possibly even skill change if you're better at Squirtle than Zard-takes time for an opponent to adjust to. I have a replay against a Marth. The choicest part of the match is as follows:

I'm Zard, and Marth is just U-tilting me into oblivion. Just keeps sending me back up. We're on battlefield, and Zard has bad horizontal airspeed. This goes on for 15 seconds, and Marth KOs Zard without a scratch on him, at a very leasurily pace I might add.

I am now at 1 stock, opponent is at 2 stocks.

Squirtle comes out, I run after them to the left, the retreat. We clash a few times, but my Jab wins out in the end. They are sent off stage. I just run off after them, don't even bother to jump. They didn't either-they were presumably still used to gimping Zard off stage. I Fair as I come close, beating out his aerial because he wasn't used to me closing in so fast in the air. Low air speed to very high air speed is a biig diferences.

He falls further off the stage. I use my double jump, then waterfall back up to the stage, edgehogging the Marth.

I killed Marth as such:

-0-22% was his percent range.
-It happened in less than 2 seconds.
-2 attacks spanning 4 hits were delivered.

It is that ability to switch your entire playstyle on the fly that gives PT so much potential. And if you can master that ability to switch your playstyle that quickly, you can easily turn the tide of a match by making hit and run attacks with each pokemon, switching out at first oppurtunity. Each pokemon has some tactics and moves that, if the opponent is not use to them, they can create a very effective brick wall.

Squirtle has his Jab. Seems unstoppable, but learn how to shield grab juuuust right.
Ivy has Bullet Seed. Seems unstoppable, but learn how to DI out of it juuust right.
Zard has Fair. Seems unstoppable, but learn how to space it juuust right.

Obviously, that's not all of what the characters have going for them, but those are some examples. And before the opponent can figure out that specific counter, just knock them away, and switch to the next tactic. PT has a lot of tactics with very specific counters, but they're spread out between 3 characters. Just keep substituting one brick wall for another, without giving the opponent a chance to learn how to counter any of them to an indepth extent. It's like a super triatholon that makes you swim 50yds, run 50yds, bike 50yds, then makes you repeat this over and over and over again. You don't have enough time to get into a rythym.

And the best part is, since you're playing the same character the entire time-unless it's another PT or a Zelda/Sheik-you'll get the chance to learn how to fight the opponent, but they won't be able to learn how to fight you.

 

[YagamiLight]

I think that's the second time SlickSlicer has won the topic. I dare somebody to read that and not laugh.

 

[Morrigan]

I think that's the second time SlickSlicer has won the topic. I dare somebody to read that and not laugh.

I didn't laugh and I'm a very joyful person

 

[Inuashakent]

Time to learn captain falcon!

 

[unwelc0med]

so tires od exits?


but seriously, bottom tier looks really odd....

 

[Stealth Raptor]

i refuse to believe ddd is better than game and watch.
anyone who like to prove me wrong?
message me

one matchup a character does not make

 

[Lord Ba'al]

so tires od exits?


but seriously, bottom tier looks really odd,,,,,

The low tier characters are odd. Lucus, Captain Falcon, Ness? I expected them to be at LEAST middle...

 

[cjrocker]

It's not that GameFAQs follows Silverflash blindly and simply hates SBR's list for no reason. In fact, a LOT of people disagree with many of Sliverflash's placements.

The difference between Silverflash (and Longhornfan before him) and the SBR is that he very specifically cites his reasoning for EVERY character's positioning, both specifically and in general. Even if you don't agree with his reasoning (for instance, he whores out tournament results too much over match-ups and metagame, in my opinion), at least he makes it clear.

The problem with this list is that some of the positions seem like vague guesses and no specific rationale was given for ANY of it.

For every person that disagrees with Silverflash, there's 3 people who believe he's god and his lists are perfect.
But yes, the #1 problem seems to be the lack of explanation for much of the placements.

 

[unwelc0med]

The low tier characters are odd. Lucus, Captain Falcon, Ness? I expected them to be at LEAST middle...

and mario....

 

[Zinc Elemental]

Whaaa---WHAT issss this nonsanse?! FFfFFfff alll youze guise! I am still grate youse buncha hooligans whaddyahaveagainstcaptain *hic* falcon?! why I oughta fal *hic* falconnnn punch yas to obliv *hic* oblivion...

*cries*

I useta be so grate...

Illl just wallow in my own *hic* moonshine vomitand despair.

Captain Falcon has very good self-esteem because of his incredible manliness. He doesn't need to take this from some "intelligent and skilled players who know what they're taking about".

 

[Overswarm]

if we give general statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

if we give specific statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

Both ways get annoying posts that simply try to rationalize a placement on the tier list when we're generally pretty capable of placing them on our own.

Instead, just win with your character and surprise us.

 

[cjrocker]

if we give general statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

if we give specific statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

Both ways get annoying posts that simply try to rationalize a placement on the tier list when we're generally pretty capable of placing them on our own.

Instead, just win with your character and surprise us.

True, no one will ever be happy. But that doesn't mean the majority can't be answered.

 

[YagamiLight]

I didn't laugh and I'm a very joyful person

It's because you're very joyful that you didn't laugh. Those two pictures depict a sad tale.

In any case, on the minor placements of characters on the list, it has makes little difference if x is 3 spaces lower than he should be according to the characters rankings, or if the match-ups weren't properly considered, etc. The solutions are simple: A) Win tournaments. B)Strategize ways to improve your character's match-ups against the cast,
and that'll lead into Solution A.

 

[Deathwish238]

soooo where exactly is the gamefaqs tier list!? and great! sonic technically the 5th worst char. in the game haha sonic still ownz =P

 

[DanGR]

Before I begin, when I use the word "you" it's directed at the br. Also, don't take this too seriously. I'm just curious, and I'm not making any accusations that you're all horrible people or anything. lol. We just want answers. And frankly, we haven't gotten much. Also, I wrote this real quick. I just wanted to get my point across.

Really, if we WANTED MK banned... we'd ban him. But right now, even though I'd like him gone myself becfause I hate him, there isn't the evidence. We don't need a tier list to do that.

I don't know what to think right now. No-one except Samurai will explain ANYTHING. And even then, he never said much. To my standards, he still hasn't given sufficient evidence why bowser is so freakin high. >_>

Here's how I see it:
1.) Either you guys want the fuss about MK to cease, so you get desperate and make an early list, which has too many holes to have been made by the sbr for the sole purpose of creating a list,

2.) or for some unexplained reason, there are holes in y'all's method you guys used to come up with the list. And you don't care to explain. >_>

3.) or it's totally possible that everything I'm saying is wrong, and that the list is good enough from your standpoint as of right now, and it takes into account everything ranging from infinites to rankings and blah blah blah

It's one of those three. Right now, I think it's the third.
_________________________________

Below, I'm just pointing out the "conspiracy theory" as it was told to me, adding in some other thoughts to conjumble it all into one big theory.

You guys don't want MK banned. If you guys wanted MK banned, you'd do it already. You don't think MK is broken, so you make an early tier list to officially put down any accusations that MK is broken. I don't blame you, in fact, I'm pretty tired of the "MK should be banned stuff" myself.
Here's some points of discussion:

1.) Early arrival-why so?

2.) Just after MK uproar. How coincidental eh?

3.) Characters that have been disputed to have equal or advantageous matchups against MK are placed higher than had they not had "good" matchups with him. Though this doesn't apply to matchups against Snake, or GaW, or DDD, or Rob, etc.

In fact, from looking at the list, you guys completely disregarded everyone's matchups against the top tier characters other than MK. Olimar has the advantage on Snake and DDD. He's got it neutral against Falco and GaW. And has a disadvantage v Rob. Does he get boosted any? Now if you say he was boosted for those matchups, I'd laugh. That'd mean that bowser was at one point ahead of Olimar, excluding matchups. Olimar has better tourney results and more potential(which I think was disregarded completely as well) than brawl bowser.

Why would this even matter? Supporting the characters that may or may not have advantageous or neutral matchups against MK help explain why MK is in the same tier as 5 other characters. He has weaknesses, and therefore isn't good enough to have his own tier. This supports the claim that making the list is a ploy to get people to shut up about MK. I don't blame you, lol. At the same time, you're recognizing MK's dominance over the cast by giving characters that do "well" against him a higher placing in the tiers, and NOT giving the same benefits to the characters that do well against the other characters that are in the same tier.

4.) They're in the same tier. You guys are acknowledging that MK is on an equal plane with Snake, DDD, GaW, Falco, and Rob. The same characters that he has at least 6/4 matchups against. All of them. You guys of all people should know that MK is in a separate tier. His total points in Ankoku's rankings system are greater than the points of every character in your whole top tier combined.(excluding snake)

The theory: This list is nothing but an official statement putting down claims that MK is broken. :O
___________________________________________

Edit: One more thing OS. If you don't respond, I'm going to cry.

Edit 2: I'm just going to lol with anyone telling me to be quiet. I don't believe a lot of this as well. I'm just pointing out some things.

 

[cjrocker]

soooo where exactly is the gamefaqs tier list!? and great! sonic technically the 5th worst char. in the game haha sonic still ownz =P

Go to the brawl board and search 'silverflash'
Also, Dan, most of that is convincing, but I don't think there was that much thought behind the MK ordeal.

 

[OrlanduEX]

Holy crap. 42 pages in less than a day. I can see this thread hitting well over a thousand posts by the end of the week.

 

[cjrocker]

Holy crap. 42 pages in less than a day. I can see this thread hitting well over a thousand posts by the end of the week.

Less than a day? This was posted yesterday at noon, California time.

 

[Ryusuta]

if we give general statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

if we give specific statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

Both ways get annoying posts that simply try to rationalize a placement on the tier list when we're generally pretty capable of placing them on our own.

Instead, just win with your character and surprise us.

No. This is a TOTAL cop-out, and I'm not going to let you slip this one by.

First of all, not explaining yourself because "people would disagree" doesn't give you MORE credibility, it gives you LESS. For one thing it gives the appearance that you don't actually HAVE an explanation handy and are trying to cover that fact up.

And even if that weren't the case, the very fact that you would hide such information makes the tier placement MEANINGLESS, because no one will know how to approach it. For example, if Link is below Ganondorf (and I'm sorry, but that's completely ********) because of tournament placement, not only does that STILL beg the question of how Luigi is so ****ing high up there (considering his tournament placement is pure garbage), but no one would KNOW that this is the case because the people involved are keeping their mouths shut about it.

And what if that's NOT why Link is so far down? What if there's some unknown reason that's not being divulged, and tournament results have nothing to do with it? Having people play Link in tournaments and improve his standing would have no effect on his placement.

With respect, I think SBR is trying to cover its collective rear ends because they made some rather foolish mistakes and need time to rationalize them.

So either start talking, or don't complain when people call you out on obvious logical fallacies.

 

[SmashChu]

if we give general statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

if we give specific statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

Both ways get annoying posts that simply try to rationalize a placement on the tier list when we're generally pretty capable of placing them on our own.

Your going to get that anyway. It's better that it is backed up rather then "Here you go". At least with the former, you have some reason.

 

[DarkRunner00]

anyone who went to Axis this weekend saw... C Falc destroy Snake. Good Beans.

 

[clowsui]

basically overswarm is saying

"whelp if we tell you we're going to inspire a whole bunch of useless commentary that comes from largely theory (i.e. not tested in tournaments) and/or comes from people who have no idea what they're talking about except for videos
but if we don't tell you then we get this giant mess of drama."

come on. SHOW people that your opinion is credible by demonstrating your place in tournaments, that you've been playing at a high competitive level. don't use the old theory game, SHOW why this list is bull. explain.

btw for all you people complaining about bowser and link:

think about it this way: the only way bowser goes is DOWN because his character potential doesn't reach farther than that
the only way that Link goes is UP because he's bottom.

jesus. play these characters and show why these characters are better than they are now on the list. -_- character potential, imho, factors in about only 20% of the decision making (you want me to make the figure look bigger? fine, 1/5), which means that a whole bunch of other stuff is opinion + tournament results. you guys think that this tier list will affect players' decisions about characters everywhere? well no crap. more than likely people will get INDIGNANT about their character's placing and go out and try and place...to PROVE THEM WRONG. a tier list will not completely sway people over - and those who are completely swayed are likely to be weak players

 

[Ryusuta]

basically overswarm is saying

"whelp if we tell you we're going to inspire a whole bunch of useless commentary that comes from largely theory (i.e. not tested in tournaments) and/or comes from people who have no idea what they're talking about except for videos
but if we don't tell you then we get this giant mess of drama."

come on. SHOW people that your opinion is credible by demonstrating your place in tournaments, that you've been playing at a high competitive level. don't use the old theory game, SHOW why this list is bull. explain.

This HAS been explained. SEVERAL TIMES. IN THIS AND OTHER RELATED TOPICS.

If tournament placement is the primary factor for tier placement, Luigi being so high up is utterly foolish.

If character match-ups are the primary factor, DeDeDe has no business being in the same tier as Game & Watch, Meta Knight, and Marth.

If character meta game is the deciding force, Link being under Ganondorf is the stupidest thing imaginable.

And if it's a combination of the three, this should be reflected in a MUCH more balanced tier placement overall, and the ratios of what factors take precedence would be made readily apparent. THIS IS NOT THAT HARD TO UNDERSTAND.

btw for all you people complaining about bowser and link:

think about it this way: the only way bowser goes is DOWN because his character potential doesn't reach farther than that
the only way that Link goes is UP because he's bottom.

That doesn't mean ANYTHING.

And I mean that. It. Means. NOTHING.

Future speculation has never, in ANY fighting game, been a deciding factor in tier placement. Tier placement is based on the CURRENT competitive level of gaming, not what the future level MIGHT be. So if you're implying that Bowser and Link are placed where they are just so it will be easier to move them, it's the same thing as saying that you weren't ready to release this list for the public yet. It's just that simple.

jesus. play these characters and show why these characters are better than they are now on the list. -_- you guys think that this tier list will affect players' decisions about characters everywhere? well no crap. more than likely people will get INDIGNANT about their character's placing and go out and try and place...to PROVE THEM WRONG. a tier list will not completely sway people over - and those who are completely swayed are likely to be weak characters.

It's funny you mention that, because MY main (Yoshi) did extraordinarily well on this tier list, compared to other, more accurate ones. So, let's put this ridiculous strawman away once and for all: we're not complaining about the list because our mains weren't where we want them to be. We're complaining because NO REASONING WHATSOEVER was given to demonstrate how ANY of the characters were placed, making the tier list, for all intents and purposes, completely worthless and meaningless to boot.

 

[Jimtopia]

Woo, go Kirby!

 

[Looper]

sigh, wario is my favorite character and he was the first i tried, but i'm so disappointed to see that he is so incredibly good. everyone at AiB is praising how godly he is, and now i am completely refusing to use Wario because of this. i am insecure about being thought of as just using wario because he's good

Comments in bold.

One more thing: Why do you make Zelda and Shiek 2 chars, but make PT one?

if you look at the DOJO!!, shiek and zelda are introduced individually, and have their own page, while pokemon trainer is all combined into one. you're essentially forced to use the other pokemon, while it's entirely possible to stay shiek or zelda throughout the whole match

 

[SothE700k]

I don't get the people that are "happy" and "yayyzz my chars high tire." Will that make you even better with your character because of his/her placing on this list? Didn't think so. If you're good with your Mid/Low/Bottom? character there's no need to be "sad".

Hey I knew Sonic would hit low and i'm still happily using him

 

[Swordplay]

I really didn't want Link to be under ganon. It is a dark day in the land of hyrule.

But....that is the way it is.

 

[Roihu]

sigh, wario is my favorite character and he was the first i tried, but i'm so disappointed to see that he is so incredibly good. everyone at AiB is praising how godly he is, and now i am completely refusing to use Wario because of this. i am insecure about being thought of as just using wario because he's good

Ignore the **** list and use him!

 

[Deleted member]

as drunk as falcon is, the man still has a nasty back air.

 

[DanGR]

OS, when I was young, my dad used to limit me to certain things like not letting me play football and setting a bed time and how long I could get on the computer- without telling me why. I never liked the rules. I didn't know why I had them! Eventually I decided I wasn't going to listen to him anymore. I refused to obey him whenever he told me anything. I didn't care. Nothing had meaning. I made my own rules. I almost left the house.

He finally told me why he wouldn't let me know after our family began falling apart. He said that if he gave reasons why, I might not agree. I'd just whine and whine and fuss over the rules. He didn't want that happening. He said that he thought that once I grew up, I'd understand. I hadn't got to that point. He then gave me the reasons, and whether I liked the reasons or not, they were the right reasons. I still wanted out. I couldn't have left the house if I tried though. My parents went into lockdown mode. My older brother understood. So did my mom, and a couple of my friends. I felt foolish, and later realized how dumb I was for acting the way I had. I gave in.

Without explanations and reasoning, the sbr isn't proving that they're any better than any other casual players. If they can't prove this, there's no reason to take the sbr's advice on anything. People can follow their own rules. The smarter players will acknowlede their inteligence and people will follow behind. The dumb and arrogant players will quit smash cuz they suck and won't take advice and won't learn anything new.

 

[adumbrodeus]

Hopefully everyone can understand that the tier list will likely change, some characters may rise(The Falcon) and some will drop(Metaknight). w

Doubtful and almost definitely not.

Captain Falcon's core attributes are horrible, there's no reason for him to improve.

Mk on the other hand has incredible core attributes, unless future ATs are inapplicable to him, he'll continue to improve as time goes on.

If you think your character needs to be higher, go grab that character, tap into his/her/it's true potential and win some tournaments, and help other dedicated users also do the same.

Some people are talking based on current results and match-ups, as well as other factors involved, and are just wondering why the heck the SBR decided to characters so low that by all indicators, was doing far better.

Again, Marth consistently places top 5 or better, has the second-best match-up spread in the game, and is technically a solid character as far as attributes go, so he should continue to improve. There's no excuse for him to be under ROB and Falco.

Why does everyone that plays Yoshi think he isn't crap?

Because he ISN'T anymore. His metagame has drastically improved since this discussion last happened, he's even got a neutral match-up with MK (agreed by both boards), now if high-leveled Yoshis would just... play him we'd see some tournament results.

We don't really NEED an inside source to know that any pro player would jump on Marth's itty bitty baby boat.

Towards, as in has a bias involving said character. The bias is negative btw, Marth consistently places quite high (only as of a few days ago was he in a period ranked 7th) and his match-ups are second only to MK over all (no soft counters except MK, no hard counters period, soft counters a lot of characters). There's really no excuse for placing him at #7.

But there's also no excuse for placing any characters other then MK and Snake in top tier.

if we give general statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

if we give specific statements, some of you would agree with it and some would not.

Both ways get annoying posts that simply try to rationalize a placement on the tier list when we're generally pretty capable of placing them on our own.

Instead, just win with your character and surprise us.

Ah but with rational you can have a logical discussion, that was what you guys had when you decided the list right?

Instead, we have this... where everyone is just saying that it's a bad tier list. Somebody needs to explain the reasoning so at least there's material to discuss otherwise it's just a "SBR sucks" topic, aka an annoying and useless thread.