the new wario is a f***ing joke

[TheReflexWonder]

every ****ing aerial in the game goes through forward-b, and it covers the option of jumping out of it (if your opponent spaces wisely) and (ALREADY HAVING COMMITTED TO) grab. the crouch thing could atleast stop you from getting punished but did nothing else in this situation.
now aerials beat forward b or the grab that looks like it 100% of the time no risks involved and you people argue about using it as a ****ing approach?

and why is the fair nerf barely discussed, he cant do his super awesome short hop fair nair anymore.

in terms of combos: garaunteed 0-death (half the cast)->50-50 mixups for one followup (exaggarated but you get the point)

You could always jump at different times to throw off the aerial, and the move was never intended to be an approach to begin with--The most was intended to be really useful for after you have an opponent staggered or after they've missed a tech. That is when the mix-up between the attack and grab will actually matter, because they can't just dashdance to deal with it (and so they are forced to guess). It's also worth noting that Wario has an above-average grab range, which helps a good amount. Overall, though, as a comparison, Peach Bomber isn't safe in neutral, but neither are 95% of B moves. :/

Full-hop F-Air is usually superior to short-hop F-Air, and that's been true in every version. Significantly less risk with almost the same reward. Also, even with the slightly higher endlag on F-Air, short-hop F-Air still allows you to waveland afterward, which is good.

Wario still has more 50/50s than almost any other character. It's an interesting direction for a character and allows him to maintain great momentum with a couple good reads. That's what's most important, IMO.

 

[\Apples]

I've decided to just come out and admit that I saw the crouch slide removal coming and the only reason I reacted the way I did to it when it happened was because I loved it dearly, not because of the frame advantage but as a mobility option for tech-chasing, getting into more comfortable situations and out of less comfortable ones.

Alas, I do agree with the decision to remove it even as a mobility option simply because it created a move which had 3 options branching from it every time you used it, making it very difficult to react to and even predict while simultaneously drawing a significant amount of appeal away from ever even bothering with the dash grab for mix-ups because the power of all of the options out of the Side-B was just too much more rewarding as well as safe.

Plus, it just feels more like Melee with less options too, which I think is a good thing. Too many options can be a really bad thing for a metagame, and P:M was giving a lot of characters a lot more options than they ought to have in order to lay the foundation for a healthier, more robust metagame to be built naturally. Restrictions breed creativity. The creative space in these characters' kits is what makes this game so interesting. It's why we've been playing Melee for going on 13 years now. This is why nerfing all this ridiculous crap is a good thing. I always like to say that design is a subtractive process, much like carving a statue out of stone. When you begin with a stone, the statue is technically already in there, you just need to find all that is extraneous and subtract it from the rock, leaving a work of art and science behind. Because design is a craft. Previous versions of P:M had a lot of extraneous crap thrown at the wall, and I'm glad to see that not all of it is sticking.

Great job on these changes, I applaud you, balance team. Taking this game in the right direction. I say this in all seriousness: ON WITH THE NERFS!

Feels good to get that out.

 

[DMG]

That was well put

 

[Oro?!]

I've decided to just come out and admit that I saw the crouch slide removal coming and the only reason I reacted the way I did to it when it happened was because I loved it dearly, not because of the frame advantage but as a mobility option for tech-chasing, getting into more comfortable situations and out of less comfortable ones.

Alas, I do agree with the decision to remove it even as a mobility option simply because it created a move which had 3 options branching from it every time you used it, making it very difficult to react to and even predict while simultaneously drawing a significant amount of appeal away from ever even bothering with the dash grab for mix-ups because the power of all of the options out of the Side-B was just too much more rewarding as well as safe.

Plus, it just feels more like Melee with less options too, which I think is a good thing. Too many options can be a really bad thing for a metagame, and P:M was giving a lot of characters a lot more options than they ought to have in order to lay the foundation for a healthier, more robust metagame to be built naturally. Restrictions breed creativity. The creative space in these characters' kits is what makes this game so interesting. It's why we've been playing Melee for going on 13 years now. This is why nerfing all this ridiculous crap is a good thing. I always like to say that design is a subtractive process, much like carving a statue out of stone. When you begin with a stone, the statue is technically already in there, you just need to find all that is extraneous and subtract it from the rock, leaving a work of art and science behind. Because design is a craft. Previous versions of P:M had a lot of extraneous crap thrown at the wall, and I'm glad to see that not all of it is sticking.

Great job on these changes, I applaud you, balance team. Taking this game in the right direction. I say this in all seriousness: ON WITH THE NERFS!

Feels good to get that out.

If only everyone reacted in a similar manner to this regarding design choices. Bravo.

 

[FireBall Stars]

I don't always come to the Wario boards, but when I come I see such a good post.

Left a rather good impression I'd say.

 

[\Apples]

This whole thread has actually had a lot of great constructive discussion. It got a little personal for a minute but it was mostly really healthy and refreshing. Thanks for inspiring me, fellow Wario mains. I need to make more time for this game.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

PM 3.0 is the first time I played PM, and I gotta say that Wario is no slouch. The **** people must have put up with in 2.6 sounds awful.

 

[666blaziken]

What I think should happen is for PMBR to remove the dash grab and bring back the side B crouch cancel. I feel that wario's dash grab can be punished too easily if someone were to predict it, while the side b crouch cancel can lead to a grab, so it can still be unpredictable. This can remove some of his unpredictability while still giving him a way to feint out his opponents who shield, and then grab them.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

the new bite is useless, as long as the opponent di's down they will get out of followups 90% of the time for 90% of the characters (then usually a dash attack, which has so much lag you'll usually get punished for hitting with it). that interesting mixup di thing was thrown out of the window.
dsmash went from a silly move that wasnt actually broken but easy to perform but hard to counter (kind of like falcos shl) to next to useless. but i guess having a laggy meteor that hits slightly below the stage which can be teched and meteor canceled is broken, just like falcons downair at the edge, superbroken and all that falcons do at top-level

the problem with the side b/dash grab mixup is that aerials ALWAYS beat it, no matter what. they don't have to make any kind of read if they have enough time to do an aerial (which is ****ing fast for most chars mind you). if it's meant to be a halfassed situational move for techchases and whatnot then fine, but people need to stop talking about it like it's some kind of an approach tool because of teh mixupz and acceptable to use when your opponent isn't in lag (or is about to be), because it isn't

problem imo with the fair nerf and not being able to do sh-fair->nair is that warios combo potential is nerfed.

honestly, i love project m and with 90% of what you've done you've all done is a ridicoulusly good job, almost all characters are well designed and balanced, but this warionerf**** is something i disagree with and i will express that and why he is overrated as ****. he can't and never has been able to even touch the holy feet of top tiers lucas, pit, spacies, lucario (esp 2.6) etc [btw someone said he's bad oos and approach wise. dair/fair oos, ****ing invincible approach that covers mad space and is safe on shield ffs etc]
Wario looks good because he's easy to pick up and play, harder to counter and he's well developed because he's popular and lots of top players have picked him up. he is not that good, bottom half without a doubt. if this game proves to be popular and it truly does develop a very advanced metagame it will be shown that I am right.

 

[Ace55]

He's a fat Jiggs with more combo potential and a air grab, he'll be fine.

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, he'll be fine. I actually really miss the Dsmash meteor too. I haven't really given its removal much thought though. Also, I don't remember anyone ever calling Wario's Side B an approach, it is not an approach tool. It may have been when he could crouch slide out of it, but not anymore. Now it's pretty much strictly a mobility and/or punish option.

 

[Ace55]

Yeah, not sure why that had to go. A weak set knockback meteor didn't even seem that amazing once people knew to expect it, but it looked ****ing hilarious.

Does holding down really eliminate any good followups out of bite for Wario in 3.0?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I kinda doubt it, but I'm not 100% positive. I'll be going to a big smash fest tomorrow though, so I'll have a chance to test it out then.

 

[JUGGERNAUT043]

He's gotten progressively better since 2.0, and in the last version he was largely considered one of the best characters. He's been toned down a bit to make combos a more interactive, thought-provoking affair (instead of everything comboing into everything, it's -slightly- less flexible), but other than having to choose your combo options a bit better and not getting a free stock once a game with Waft (which is arguably a buff, since you get a powerful option for recovery or approach every minute now), he's pretty much the same character.

Oh, wait, there is also the Forward-B crouch slide change...It was much safer on shield than it needed to be (up to +12 frame advantage in some cases, apparently), and it gave him a fourth out in terms of a mix-up that already had three parts to it (Shoulder, Crouch, Grab, Jump). It was deemed overkill and unnecessary; he already has a ton of options for mitigating risk, and so requiring more commitment out of going for the Forward-B was a very good decision, IMO.

Question if wario is so good now and recieves 2 nerfs to every buff why has nobody been seen playing him in monthes including u?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I haven't played much 3.0 so far, and what I have played was largely to show that Ivysaur (who got many, many more nerfs than Wario in the transition from 2.6 to 3.0) was not complete garbage in her current state.

I can't speak for other people, and I have no anecdotal evidence to show for it. Maybe other people don't think he's worth their time. I'm pretty confident that Wario is still an above-average character, though.

 

[Sebovich]

I can´t really put my finger on it, but Wario feels a lot worse than he did in 2.6. I play Wario kind of how I play Jiggs, wop style with a lot of focus on nairs and bairs.
Also, People keep mentioning his F-B, that has supposedly 3 alternatives? Straight tackle, Jump Tackle and grab? Does this grab refer to his dash-grab animation?

 

[The_Enlightenment_]

why do you guys nerf wario every update is it a cover up to help establish you devs as humble fall-guys while you pick apart fox and falco and pee on their corpses with laser and shine nerds?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

But Wario was super-buffed in 2.5 and marginally buffed in 2.6

 

[Sebovich]

But Wario was super-buffed in 2.5 and marginally buffed in 2.6

I dunno man, Wario just feels lackluster. Maybe the changes made my playstyle obselete, I don´t know. I like the new changes to his waft though, its more useful in combat now and not a "bet all on one" kind of move. The shorter charge timer somewhat makes up for the decreased range in aireal side-b as a recovery tool, but his recovery seem overall worse than before.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wario is still a really good character

 

[Sebovich]

Wario is still a really good character

Yeah, Im gonna play with him in a tourney now in February and see How that goes. He's probably The number 1 character I'd like to be good at in PM, and even though my first new impressions of him are so so, Im sure youre right.

 

[victra♥]

Wario is a pretty sick character on stage, with an incredible combo game and all-around mobility.

But you guys. Guys. His recovery is so butt.

I loved Wario, and mained him for over a year and a half. But his recovery nerf made me so salty that i quit PM for a few months, and only started playing again because i fell in love with Dedede.

Pls. His recovery is total poop you guys. How do you guys deal with a character who spawns at kill percent? He doesn't have as strong of a zoning and combo game like Falco to justify his awful recovery, and in a game like PM where the majority of the cast has free recoveries, Wario makes me so salty every time i play him now.

Enlighten me Wario lovers >_<

 

[mYzeALot]

Yea I feel like he is mostly an aerial character, but lacks a good recovery that aerial characters usually have. I don't usually get gimped, but i feel like my friends can work on their edge-guarding. I dropped wario for toonlink for the time-being, but I'm tempted to just pick him up and die once i get a certain distance off stage to see what it feels like. A recovery buff would definitely make me pick him up again, at least for teams.

 

[TTTTTsd]

If I remember correctly from when I last played with Wario, you can Up+B at the end of Waft since 3.0. I am not completely positive but I believe this is possible. Dunno about Double Jump preservation, but hey. Maybe this could be central to things like waft recovery vs. taking a stock depending on the MU? His recovery isn't great but he's got some neat tricks. Side+B can bounce off of walls and let you Up+B, almost like a pseudo walljump in a way. I agree that recovering is still not GREAT but the bag of tricks is waiting to be opened, I'd imagine.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Save your double-jump and weave around people. Most characters who can recover from much greater distances are pretty inflexible about how they come in.

 

[Strong Badam]

Wario is a pretty sick character on stage, with an incredible combo game and all-around mobility.

But you guys. Guys. His recovery is so butt.

I loved Wario, and mained him for over a year and a half. But his recovery nerf made me so salty that i quit PM for a few months, and only started playing again because i fell in love with Dedede.

Pls. His recovery is total poop you guys. How do you guys deal with a character who spawns at kill percent? He doesn't have as strong of a zoning and combo game like Falco to justify his awful recovery, and in a game like PM where the majority of the cast has free recoveries, Wario makes me so salty every time i play him now.

Enlighten me Wario lovers >_<

His recovery is really solid TBH especially with his weaving & weight. It may be one of the weaker of the new Brawl characters' recoveries but that doesn't mean it's bad. Plus he now has an aerial finisher option in Aerial Side-B. I love using it.
Dealing with a limited recovery is something most good characters need to do and I don't think it's a problem. Wario IS good on-stage and you still need to be read like 4-6 times in a row at the ledge to actually die at 0. If you're better than your opponent it shouldn't happen very often if at all. Not to mention his recovery is way better in 3.0 because of the Waft charge time decrease.

 

[\Apples]

Yeah, Wario's recovery is perfect as it is. 2 main options after midair jump where usually, a midair jump is all you need to get back anyways (especially on small stages). The aerial mobility alone is an incredible recovery tool and makes him very scary to edgeguard for many characters. If you're complaining about Wario's recovery, I'd suggest more experimentation.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

So, down smash is just the worst move in the game, right? It's unsafe on hit. The strategy seems to be "if they miss a tech you get a followup." I'm not playing against people who miss techs on a move that ridiculously telegraphed. I downsmash, they tech, I'M STILL IN COOLDOWN, they attack. The hitstun is so low on it I've actually been just naired from them being popped up.

What the hell is this move?

 

[\Apples]

Yeah. it's pretty bad now. Just tech in place and pretty much every character has time to put Wario at a disadvantage. I still don't get why it can no longer hit airborne targets... there was literally nothing wrong with the move... it was hella easy to ledge tech and meteor cancel and on-stage airborne hits were actually useful. But now there's like no utility there and I use it because of habit. I've been trying get out of that habit and just stop using it altogether.

Even if you can space it perfectly, against many characters the best that gets you is reset to neutral... which is disappointing.

Despite this, I don't think it really needs changed. Wario is fine as he is. I think there are other characters than need brought down. More characters should have a few lackluster moves... but instead, every move every character has is amazing, which is pretty uninteresting. I think D-smash should just stay relatively useless. How many moves in Melee are "relatively useless" and how many of those have seen some cool niche implementations? I think bad moves are really healthy for creativity.

 

[Kit Cal-N]

I think you should have bread-and-butter moves and niche moves, yeah, but NO move should be unsafe on hit on all hitboxes. Except Luigi's down-angled ftilt, for tradition's sake.

 

[\Apples]

Nah, he has his d-tilt for that now.

 

[victra♥]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RbTV5TOY2o

alright @ Strong Badam i'm convinced, i'm now back to being a wario main

 

[\Apples]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_RbTV5TOY2o

alright @ Strong Badam i'm convinced, i'm now back to being a wario main

Of all things, that's what convinces you. >_>

 

[CyberZixx]

Of all things, that's what convinces you. >_>

For real. I was expecting one of Strong Bad matches from Shuffle V. Not some useless TAS video.

 

[victra♥]

I'm not being serious it's just cause the vid is hilarious

And cuz wario sucks lmaoooo

 

[Scarlet Bean]

Wario is what got me into playing PM
He's gotten so many unnecessary nerfs
I quit this ****

 

[Strong Badam]

a moment of silence for scarlet bean

 

[Scarlet Bean]

a moment of silence for scarlet bean

Spacies.
That should scare you off

 

[Strong Badam]

i aint scurred

 

[Scarlet Bean]

i aint scurred

uhroo