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The New Console Debates

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RaptorHawk

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Devilkoopa said:
Ya see, if you have too many guns available to you. it's hard to determine which guns you should really aim for, and which guns are worthless (this is pretty much why i sucked at goldeneye).
LMAO. If there were a lot of guns to choose from, determining "which guns you should really aim for" is not a problem of the game. Its the persons problem for not knowing which gun they should get.

Devilkoopa said:
The beatuy of halo 2 is that you get enough guns so that everyone can form their own little stategy, w/o any one person owning the entire map with one gun*
LOL. Yea your right.....sorta. Yea people can choose their own little strategy, but each map has a weapon or weapon combo that works best. And these weapons are almost always one of the super weapons which dont respawn as long as they are being held. So one person CAN own the entier map with one gun(I know because I've done it plenty of times and I've seen it done plenty of times)

Devilkoopa said:
*"But what about the sword/ rocket launcher?" Well, if you can't figure out how to take down 1 sword or rocket launcher player, you're playing the wrong game. It's not some sore of 1337 move, cause every weapon has its own drawbacks.
Yea weapons have their drawbacks. But get the right combo in each map and you can unfairly completely destroy people. Say you get the Sniper and the Sword in a small map. Your set for a good while as now you can take people out from any distance and your opposition cant really do anything about it since their weapons basically suck.

Devilkoopa said:
BTW: Metroid prime < Halo 2. But then again they're completely different genres.
If theyre completely different genres why are you bothering trying to say one is greater than the other.
 

Deo_Smash

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Speaking of Adventure games, what can there be fixed about those? The only fresh adventure game that i've played is Metriod Prime, whiched is a comboniation of FPS and Adventure that blended real well. Viewtiful Joe was fun and fresh as well but there has been alot mediocre adventure/platformers that just don't appeal as well since Super Mario 64. I mean come on, whats the problem? someone help me find it.
 

Devilkoopa

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Im not saying that there is a problem with adventure games at all, if i did i would say that adventure games need to be fixed. I would say "**** do i need some cutscenes in Metroid Prime" but im not gonna. I guess the only problem (if any) with adventure games is that they're too hard to define. You could define Prime as a venture/FPS as u did earlier, and you could also say that viewful joe is a sidescroller/ adventure. Technically, every game is an adventure game, because you can view video games as going on an adventure. But, It doesn't matter, cause it really doesnt make a difference.


For my Metroid Prime < Halo 2 equation thingie, i meant preference, not goodness... Yes goodness is not a word and i dont care, but the thing is that even though they are two different genres i can say that i prefer one other the other, because maybe i prefer FPS to Adventure games? Besides if i can't compare Halo 2 to Metroid Prime please dont bother to bring Prime into the halo 2 debate thingie.

Im sorry if that sounded very preachy but...yeah.


Anyways back to the new console debates: Oblivian comes out in March, and i gotta say, it looks awesome. It was apprantly the "system seller" prediction back before the 360 came out, and if the 2nd shipment comes out by then, i foresee many sales.


EDIT: Why would u have a sword and a sniper on a small level? That just sounds like really poor planning to me.
 

Destiny Smasher

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Don't get me wrong about Geometry Wars! I know that I'd love it to death! That's my entire point: one of the most exciting games for the console isn't even a full GAME, it's a smaller, downloadable one.
A glorious idea, I think that is, and I hope Nintendo follows suit.
I'm honestly not excited about Halo 3. What's funny is this: they haven't actually ANNOUNCED they're making it. Now, if everyone knows they're making it, why would they not announce it? Something's fishy with that, if you ask me.

And not all video games are adventure games, either. Ever played Meteos or Lumines? Those are NOT adventure games. Nintendogs? Mario Kart DS? Not adventure games.

When I hear 'adventure,' I usually think of 'action/adventure,' like RE4 or God of War. Shadow of the Colossus was a true adventure game if ever I've played one. I don't even own a PS2 and I own that game.

Anyway, there's really not much we can debate about that isn't speculation, is there? There's gonna be a LOT of debating going on by the end of May, I'm sure. I wonder if we'll be caught by surprise before then? You think Nintendo or Sony would take a small leap and reveal some bits at the GDC?
 

Devilkoopa

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Yeah i admit im a bit annoyed when ihear people are buying Xbox 360 for Halo 3....I mean i can see that as the longterm reason why you would buy one, but yeah we havnt even heard anything about it.


Oh Siberia, Myst. I think those are like "the" adventure games. But you have to admit, the word adventure can be applied to anything. For example:


Nintendogs.....owning a puppy truly is an adventure :)


Lumines.....the adventure of music?


Meteos....they're like a plot, where like you have to defend a planet from indvading aliens. Reminds me of a movie...INDEPENDENCE DAY, which hey, was an adventure.



Of course im being sarcastic, you really can't apply adventure to every game, but you can apply it to many things....except Lumines and Meteos :)
 

Deo_Smash

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My idea of adventure is Legends of Zelda: OoT and Mario 64. Alot of games that try to mimic them have been licensed stuff from Movies and Television Series. For example, Tak and the Power of Juju? No. Sponge Bob? Hell no. The Jak series is a very good original thats turned into a adventer/3PS as the same for Ratchet and Clank. But as much as I enjoyed playing them, neither of them had that feel of exploring the enviroment as LoZ and Mario 64. What I mean is when your playing Jak your most like saying "Dude! Check out what I just did on the bike" or "Hey watch how this thing blows up" and jumping around and over obstacles is more of a chore just to get to the next thing to blow up. Where as when I play Mario 64, I find my self looking around and taking in where I am at and whats going on. Mario's wall jump is fun as hell. Wet and Dry world is one of my favriot stages because there was so much to push and pull and move around and find stuff. I even enjoyed finding the hidden town thats under the whole place. I didn't even know it was there untill i ran into it by accident. I thought that was cool. I just can't seem to find that kind of enjoyment in too many of todays games.
 

Mic_128

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Deo_Smash said:
Speaking of Adventure games, what can there be fixed about those? The only fresh adventure game that i've played is Metriod Prime.
Do yourself a favor and get Beyong good and Evil.
 

Devilkoopa

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BG&E and the 1st Jak and Daxter are my fav adventure games now that i think of it. I didnt play beyond that much though, becasue i guess it got overshadowed by other games (i did get it at Xmas time)
 

Hat Hair

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How about Psychonauts? I heard from multiple sources that that game was really good and deserved better sales.

Oooh, and Kameo: Elements of Power! Has anyone played that gem?
 

Cashed

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Destiny Smasher said:
I'm honestly not excited about Halo 3. What's funny is this: they haven't actually ANNOUNCED they're making it. Now, if everyone knows they're making it, why would they not announce it? Something's fishy with that, if you ask me.
Bill Gates has actually confirmed it's in development.

"It's up to the team at Bungie when they want to ship Halo 3, and they're going to take their time to make that a super great product."

http://www.gamespot.com/xbox360/action/halo3/news.html?sid=6142127

We could also go back to 2003, where Steve Ballmer confirmed it was in development.

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/halo3alreadyoverayearindevelopment.shtml

I agree with Giygas about BG&E. I just couldn't get into the game. At first it seemed fun, but as I played it I was just kinda like "meh."

Kameo was a great adventure game, but it was very short for being in development for 5 years.
 

RaptorHawk

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Bungie also said Halo2 was in development 3 years before it was released when in fact they didn't start making it till 10 months before its release.
 

Chill

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Unless you work for Bungie don't start pedaling rumors as facts. Don't start that crap in this topic too.
 

Zink

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I doubt Bungie could have made Halo 2 in ten months. Do you know how long it takes to make a video game of that calibre? Even assuming they could draw from Halo 1 for physics and animations and other stuff, I would say at least 2 years, conservatively.


BTW, what does this have to do with the new console debates?
 

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RaptorHawk said:
Bungie also said Halo2 was in development 3 years before it was released when in fact they didn't start making it till 10 months before its release.
They were making Halo 2, then scrapped most of what they had, then restarted. At E3 2003 they had a new engine built for Halo 2... Then they found out there were things they wanted to do that the original Xbox couldn't handle, so they had to tone things down. Throughout 2003 they worked on the multiplayer and single player, finishing the single player. They then looked back at it and said "Some of this doesn't make sense, there are things in single player we don't need, we need to redo this." Which is why it took them till mid October 2004 to finish.
 

Deo_Smash

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i think i've found a reason.

High graphical games take along time to make. Whether you take them from other games or start from scratch, it takes time, and more importantly, money. This will lead developers to lean towards making games for the Revo.
I'm not saying they'll make games only for the Revo but what I am saying they don't want to be wasting money on a game not very many people will buy due to high pricing. You don't want to make a game that will take several years to make, hire lots of people to make it, and in order to cover all expenses, you would have to set the game at $60,$70, or even $80 dollars. I, for one, do not want to spend 80 dollars on a game that not only spend that much to own, I have to spend nearly 5 times that amount in order to play it at home. I could find someone else who owns the system to play it on but then he might have the same game. The Revo is going to be cheap to buy, cheap to make games for, and once developers are used to the controller, they'll be able to produce several games. And they can still achieve great graphics on the Revo even if it has less power than the other 2.
 

beckhamisaqueer

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I have yet to see something RaptorHawk has said been wrong during this debate in the last two pages.
Chill watch the H2 limited edition video. Bungie said it themselves they made it in ten months. Check your facts before dismissing others as rumors.

Anyway, on topic I believe Xbox 360 needs something more. I can't say anything of hard fact, as I haven't played on it yet, but from what I've heard, it is nothing more than a graphically enhanced Xbox. That would seriously disappoint me.

PS3 just sounds like an amazingly powerful supercomputer that will cost 8 million dollars. If it could take do as much as Sony says, I would be impressed.

Revolution looks like what I will buy at the moment. Cheap, creative, and a break from what gaming has become. I enjoy playing my SNES as much as my Gamecube and Xbox. I don't think that's right. I place hope that Nintendo is taking a better direction than this disappointing generation.
 

Devilkoopa

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I dont know, rev. scares me and excites me at the same time. I just hope that the motion thingie isn't a gimmick like the eyetoy (yeah i heard about the plugable controllers but im just focusing on the wireless controller).

While i agreed that the 360 is just an upgrade of the xbox for at least 3 months now, i recently just played call of duty 2 in hd and i am just blown away. It seems as if everyone i know (NYC) who had orignally wanted a 360 are finally getting it, so i hope that the 2nd shipment comes soon (like, before march would be great)


BTW: Uh addressing Psychonauts. Apparently it was very creative and funny, but underneath it all it as just another platformers.
 

Mic_128

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beckhamisaqueer said:
If it could take do as much as Sony says, I would be impressed.
Sony's notorious for lying about their new consoles.
 

ChRed2AKrisp

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Which is why he uses the clause, if, as in he would be impressed if the PS3 did all that, but he doesn't think it will. sorry, I just enjoy pointing out everything other people do wrong.

@backhamisaqueer: umm...don't think of the Rev. as cheap. Nintendo's changed their minds again and said "It won't run above $450". Mind, it'll still be the least expensive system, but probably not cheap.
 

Mic_128

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You do know that if it's less than $450, it'll still be less than $300 too? He was comparing it to the price of the 360 launch in Japan (as the currency he used was yen, not US $'s in the actual quote).
 

Chill

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Chill watch the H2 limited edition video. Bungie said it themselves they made it in ten months. Check your facts before dismissing others as rumors.
I think a good example of this would be Kameo. Kameos creators had to "restart" several times when creating the game does this mean it didn't take them 4+ years to create the game? Of course not. Just because something doesn't work or they had a setback doesn't mean everything that they had at that point was worthless. There is no way they programmed the game, wrote the srcipt, programmed cutscenes, hired actors, designed characters, weapons , completed testing,etc, etc in 10 months.

The only "admittance" that the game was made in ten months is when they say as of E3 they had not started on the campaign or mulitplayer maps. If you look at the time they finished the game 10 months would mean they waited until December of 2003 to start making it.

Anyways...
BTW: Uh addressing Psychonauts. Apparently it was very creative and funny, but underneath it all it as just another platformers.
What game underneath isn't just another ___? If you take away everything creative and funny from Mario, underneath it's just another platformer. I'm not saying you have to like the game I just thought that was an odd thing to say.
 

Devilkoopa

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^ sry it came out wrong: apparently it was just a generic platformer which featured some interesting art choices. That's what the mags say at least.


Oh here's a good example of the development of games topic: Prey. Originally revealed pre 1997, the game has gone through 3 diffferent reincantaions. Technically the producers right now could say that it has been in production for 9 years, when actuallity the time they had spent on it is significantly lower (im not sure how long the guys who are doing it now have been doing it, that's why i didnt give a development time)
 

RaptorHawk

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The Halo 2 truth.

The following is all true, based on documentaries, articles, interviews, the special DVD that came with the game's Silver Edition, and basic perception.

Roughly 7 months before E3 2003, Bungie decided they would shock the world with an intense footage of live, actual gameplay that blew everyone away. Unfortunately, 7 months before E3 2003, all they had finished making so far was the game's basic outline (story and content-wise) and an experimental version of the game's engine, all of which took about 5 months in itself. Nevertheless, they spent the next 7 months solely on that 10 demo so that it would hype us out of our minds for the actual game. Anything they could think of that seemed cool, they threw into the demo without thinking about any consequences it may have. Like people thinking it would be in the game. They were just too excited to care.

Ultimately, finishing the demo took up all of their 7 months of work time.

After Bungie hyped the world out of its mind with their undeniably awesome demo, they came back and realized they had made a mistake that not even the public or gaming press would think a game company could make... which officially became known as, based on hard stats, "The Greatest Upset in Gaming History".

They had wasted the last 7 months of work. Completely and 100%. They realized they didn't have a level. They didn't even have a part of a level. What they had was a demo, that ran on an experimental engine that ultimately could not work with the Xbox, and none of it could be implemented into the actual game. For the next TWO months, I kid you not, Bungie studios was practically empty because they were so confused on what course of action to take.

Those 2 months dwindled away. That's when Microsoft showed up...

Microsoft, being fair and rational, inquired as to why the hell Bungie had been screwing around with Halo 2 for 1.5 years but still seemed to have no useable material. Who knows if Bungie leveled with Microsoft and admitted they screwed up, or if they hid the truth somehow. The fact was, the hype for Halo 2 had been set with an actual playable demo. The public would not stand for waiting much longer after seeing something that made the game look so... complete. In all rationality, a good game takes about 1.5 years to make. It had been almost 2 since the public thought Halo 2 was in the works. So Microsoft did what it had to do. It gave Bungie a deadline that would wind up as their death sentence. They were given 10 months to finish the game before Microsoft demanded the discs be made and shipped.

They hadn't even started making the actual game...

For ten months, Bungie studios sacrificed every fiber of their beings to make the game. They did not go to their homes after work. They designed and programmed for 18 to 20 hours a day, falling asleep on their desks or on beanbags. They rushed the game furiously. Slamming it together piece by piece, hoping things at least functioned without a total crash.

And as the leader of Bungie said, "At that moment, Pandora's Box was opened...".

Literally 75% of what Bungie had originally intended to be in the game, had to be scrapped. It was absolutely the only way to finish the game on time. If anyone wants me to, I can develop a list of what was promised in the game that was ripped from it.

The worst part of it all, was that even the original intended storyline had to be mutilated. Anybody remember the original Halo 2 Teaser where the MC jumped out of a space station? Think about what we saw happening to Earth in that trailer. Or watch it again. What do you notice?

Earth... is in flames.

Most people have forgotten that the trailer and demo of Halo 2 both gave a direct impression that the game would contain the first stage of THE LAST BATTLE FOR EARTH. ALL ACROSS AND OVER EARTH. Think of the demo. Human bombers bunker-busting giant covenant artillery, Jackals marching in formations, fleets of Phantoms swarming the clouds, legions of starcruisers circling the earth, razor drop-pods, hundreds of them, crashing to the ground, each holding deadly black-armored Elites with energy swords that actually LOOKED like they were made of energy. All the while, the entire sky has been painted orange with the flames consuming the planet the whole surface of the planet. This was the last battle we had been waiting so long to fight.

Remember anything of that caliber in the final version? Where did it all go? Easy. Bungie did not have the time and resources to develop a game with a battle of that magnitude. So what cover-story do they pull? Anyone remember?

They rewrote the story so that the ships that attacked Earth was merely a small strike force that accidentally jumped the gun, and didn't harm any part of Earth outside the levels in the game, being New Mombassa. Bungie's best cover story was to make a profit named "Regret" (how creative) to accidentally warp in too early. Genius. Crafty. They succeeded, because only the particularly sharp gamers noticed the dastardly move they pulled. And in case you read the novels and are wondering why a fourth one is not coming out when there are so many questions unanswered, this is the reason. Eric Nylund could not work with the material from Bungie’s substitute-story in a way that could connect to his universe properly. Nylund was probably planning a book after First Strike based on the original story of the last battle Bungie wrote out for Halo 2. Well, Bungie cared more about finishing their game then being friendly to the novels. So there you have it. Bungie killed the Halo novels as well.

Why do you think Halo 2 has been ruined by cheaters? For a whole year, the cheating ratio became 1 out of 4. That's because within that 10 months, Xbox live had to be rushed in design and program as well. In fact, they were not even sure if they would be able to get it working for Xbox Live by the deadline.

Why do you think so many of the aspects in Multiplayer seem broken, unfinished, and unbalanced? This is your answer. This is your answer to all your questions.

If anyone has wondered why anything in the real game seems worse, different, or missing things that were shown to us in the TRAILER and DEMO, this is your answer.

Edit: If you did not know any of this, I hope it angers you as much as it angered me.
 

Chill

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I've seen that same piece circated around the internet so many times, copied and pasted over and over. I don't even care anymore. You can look at any of my post on this "issue" to see what I would say in reply. I can look at your past post to see what you say. The same info has been posted so many times you already know waht each person will say before they say it.
 

ChRed2AKrisp

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the funny thing is, i still think its a ****ing awesome game. screw what it was supposed to have, its got good stuff now. bAnd the novels? You actually read novels based off a first person shoot em' up with a crap story line, before or after the changes? Okay, that's your loss. But It's a game, it's only a game, and it's not a book or movie. It's something I play, not read or watch.

Oh, and the cheaters? Somepeople feel snakers in MKDS are cheaters. We all know better. That's part of online play. If you're good you can adapt. People who say snaking is 'cheating' suck. YOu can't deal with what other people throw at you? Too bad. Take every advantage you can get, implement it successfully, and you are an awesome player.
 

Deo_Smash

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I've accomplished snaking before I even knew it had a term. Heck, one of Nintendo's ghost uses snaking like a god! i believe its on Donut Plains. Sorry for the off topic but I have nothing better to say.
 

Zink

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um... this is kind of off-topic and n00bish... but what is snaking?
Raptor, that sounds like a story Bungie made up so that they would look better... and it did make them look better if they are working 20-hour days for 10 months and have a bad game, than if they blow off the game or mess up badly and have a bad game... can you link to all these legion documentaries, interviews, and articles?
 

Deo_Smash

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Snaking is a technique of drift-boosting into another drift-boosting, alternativly left and right down straight ways. Snaking in corners is just the same except you'll want to do this along with the curve.
all of this Takes place in Mario Kart DS.

Now back to our regular schedual debate.
 

blaksheap82

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Well not yet, I just wanted to say in ChRed's defense, and at the same time to disagree, that snaking is not cheating, hacking is cheating. But as one of the apparently eight people who play MKDS online who doesn't snake, it does take some fun out of it. I don't know why, I just can't snake for some reason, but I was never really good at cranking up turbos in MKDD, either. But anyone who thinks that snaking was intentional in the design needs to take a second look at the game they're playing. That kind of maneuver is not in keeping with the theme of MK. So sometimes I wish people who snaked didn't, not because I can't, but because I want to play the game the way it was intended. Getting hit by three red shells when you're in first and about to cross the finish line is more cheap than snaking, and that kind of gameplay was intended, after a fashion.

But still, ChRed is right, if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen.
 

Cashed

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Zink said:
um... this is kind of off-topic and n00bish... but what is snaking?
Raptor, that sounds like a story Bungie made up so that they would look better... and it did make them look better if they are working 20-hour days for 10 months and have a bad game, than if they blow off the game or mess up badly and have a bad game... can you link to all these legion documentaries, interviews, and articles?
Most of it is from the bonus disc that came with the Collector's Edition of Halo 2. They have hours and hours of old stuff on that disc, from Halo when it was an RTS on Mac, to the finished Halo 2 product.

Even though we're really getting off topic with Halo 2 (which was started by me mentioning Halo 3, huzzah!), I have to say that I'm impressed that Bungie was able to recreate the story like they did. Being someone that hasn't read the novels, but knowing a few things from very basic summaries people have made online, the story makes sense. In Halo 1, you start off right when Reach is being glassed by the Covenant, the Pillar of Autumn makes a blind jump, stumbles upon installation... 4 I believe it was. Then in Halo 2 you start off with people receiving awards from Halo 1's activities, and whoa! The Covenant are knocking on our footsteps. But something is different, according to Cortana... the fleet that glassed Reach was much larger. I believe she says fifty times larger. So yeah, then you learn that Regret jumped the gun, thought he found the location of the "Ark," which can activate all the Halos. It's location: Earth, in Africa somewhere. Then the other Prophets get angry at Regret, etc etc. The rest of Halo 2 happens. "Sir, finishing this fight" with High Charity, all the Covenant (holy crap @ fleet you see heading for Earth above Delta Halo after killing Regret!), the Flood, etc! Halo 3 seems like it'll be what Bungie wanted to originally do with Halo 2. Yay, off topic! So yeah guys, let's try to remember (including me!) that this is the New Console Debates. Not Halo 2 and such debates. :p
 

Deo_Smash

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Wow, that just saved me from playing Halo and Halo 2 single player. Thanks!

So lets get back to discussing whats going on in the Next Gen.

I'm going to go to collage for video game design and I'm looking forward to learning how to make games for the Revo and DS. Their definitaly way out their and can totaly use your imagination to its fullest, especially over Xbox360 and Playstation (just saying this mainly to start an argument. Joy!)

Plus, has anyone else googled Nintendo Revolution lately? Some "analyst" say that Nintendo is coming in third place this gen as well as the DS falling behind the PSP by 20million sales in the end. Something tells me someones be smoking too many UMDs lately.
 

Zink

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Those numbers strike me as... not quite... TOTALLY UNBELIEVEABLE. 3rd place when only 1 system has actually been released? DS falling behind? By 20 MILLION?
Deo, what year are you? I'm betting the Revo will have about a 5-year life, so get in quick.
Cashed, is that a spoiler?
I think Nintendo will annunce another launch title at e3, assuming there are others. The PS3 is somewhat of a mystery as well...
 

Mic_128

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Deo_Smash said:
Some "analyst" say that Nintendo is coming in third place this gen as well as the DS falling behind the PSP by 20million sales in the end.
Nintendo have come in third this gen (I still concider Xbox, PS2 and GC as current Gen until there's competition for the 360) but The DS is beating the PSP worldwide, although PSP is just beating the DS in the US.
 

Chill

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Deo_Smash said:
Plus, has anyone else googled Nintendo Revolution lately? Some "analyst" say that Nintendo is coming in third place this gen as well as the DS falling behind the PSP by 20million sales in the end. Something tells me someones be smoking too many UMDs lately.
Analyst are analyst. When given information they will make predictions that seem logical to them. Who knows what info he/they based their/his predictions on. Sony liscensing middleware, the release of the PS3, who knows. If the PSP begans to see some more good games it could come near or pass the DS in sales. I don't think it will but stranger things have happened. It certainly isn't out of the realm of possibility.
 

Zink

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wow... that's pretty cool. They Microed the DS. The real selling point is the connectivity though: who's betting on that being used in Crystal Chronicles Revolution?
Any word about pricing?
 

Cashed

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Zink said:
3rd place when only 1 system has actually been released? DS falling behind? By 20 MILLION?
Cashed, is that a spoiler?
I think Nintendo will annunce another launch title at e3, assuming there are others. The PS3 is somewhat of a mystery as well...
3rd place in the Xbox, PS2 and GameCube "current" gen.

It's a spoiler, but I don't have to mark it thanks to the amazing forum rules I created for this room!

And another launch title? Expect Nintendo to announce titles, and maybe launch titles if you're lucky. The Rev still has quite a while until it's here, Nintendo doesn't need to be making promises at E3.
 

Zink

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heheh, sorry Cashed, I thought you meant next-next-gen (360 era).
E3 is maybe wishful thinking... I think Nintendo might be taking a risk on disappointed gamers, and people drifting away during summer, if there are n new titles for Revo to drool over...
Nintendo doesn't HAVE to do anything, of course, but I hope they will.
 
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