The Never Ending Problem.. ~ Please Read

[Dark Phazon]

Although a few others have already hinted at this, I'd just like to point something out.

Wavedashing is not some quick and dirty trick which will make you win at Smash, and learning to wavedash alone is probably not going to be enough for you to beat your friend. You'll often see less experienced players (like people on the IGN boards, for example) say things to like "I refuse to use exploits like wavedashing to win, sure if I learned to wavedash I'd win all the time but I have too much pride for that", but all that shows is that they don't actually understand what wavedashing is.

The reality is that your spacing, general practical matchup experience, character knowledge etc are always going to be worth more than the simple fact of whether or not you wavedash. Learning to wavedash by itself isn't a way of winning. It's just another option of movement - and it only becomes a useful tool when you've learned to use it meaningfully to compliment everything else in your game, which can take a long time.

Once you've been playing at a mid-high level for years, wavedashing is just another thing and it's really no big deal. Its importance tends to be exaggerated at low levels and I got the impression that the OP was thinking that way by reading some of his posts.

This is all very general, of course. There are some exceptions (like Luigi, which happens to be one of his characters) where wavedashing is actually his best form of movement, but even as Luigi you still have to use it meaningfully for it to have much of an impact.

I did think thay for starters but i quickly already realised this i know ita a form of movement best used to find another route to counter,offense and mostly defense the way i see it.

But ofc what im tryna get at is imo its only worth using at all is if you got it lock can do it very easy and quick without failure like air dodge by accident..then i might aswell stick to side rolling..

Atm i am over doing it just wave dashing all the time like a idiot when its not needed on final destination against a lvl 4 falcon or falco but thats just to get proper customed to it like its breathing so i when i do need to use it i wont be afraid to incase i fail it.

Let me explain were i use it and please tellme if im not using it in the right way.

The Way i Use Wavedashing since i learned it yesterday.

i use it in mid range of my opponent like were people would dash dance i keep some space throw a pill wavedash back and repeat a few times. I Also use it in this range to fake a rush thought and counter my opponents reaction.

Also i fake run in wavedash back and forward smash. what i also do alot that i proberly find the most gift of it is at close range i wavedash into them but holding down [R] then i shield grab them.

After i have thrown em or in general when im doing some ground combos if i hit the guy and hes just outta range of my next hit i will wave dash in the said direction to keep the combo going a prime example of this is Samus crouch attach the flame shot makes em go into the air then i wavedash forward and down smash em if there low percent or up smash circle flamethrower if the at medium/high percent.

I also wavedash to slip off and edge guard something i never ever used to do..(yh call me a noob..)

Errmmm..thats about it tbh i think..please guys respond and tellme if im doing it right or wrong. and please dont flame me if im using it wrong..i
just used it in the way i thought would benefit me and above all ofc whats actually the point is to make me a better play then i was before i was doing it..Also my god Wavedashing has improved my shorthop! i can shorthop alot more frequent now! getting better and better!

Also its locked in i have found 3 chars and i love there playstyle and what they mean.

Dr. MARIO:

This guy is proberly the most crazy to play as and most difficult after all the SHFFL & Dashes etc: he soo fast! damn once i grab someone the options are endless! i can do like 50 damage after a down throw! (yh i know its a CPU..) Sometimes i cant seem to think of the best move to use at the said time because This doc is on drugs how fast he is..u may need to think about what i do after i throw someone...whats the best moves to do and when etc..This is the Adrenaline character!

SAMUS:

As much as i love metroid it fuels me to be a Beast when playing as Samus im most happy when playing with her out of the other 3. Gotta get the Smash missles after shorthop ends on lock im nearly there. Got some dirty charge beam combos like down throw then POWW! or Up tilt or Down Aerial then POW!!. Crouch (A) into Smashes and stuff! This is the character that i have the moves on lock the most imo (-_-). I know what to do and when.

ALSO:
i like saving my Charge beam for the KO's and use at the right time ever since my friends falco
used to reflect it back in my face every single time..thats why i dropped samus for a while..now im back ! ima only charge beam him when hes of the stage and if i do choose to shoot another time as soon as i do ima shield straight after.

GANONDORF:

When i been using Doc and Samus too much against my friend its time for this guy.

All that andrenaline fast play from Samus and expecially Dr.Mario leads me to this guy! Almost complete opposite playstyle much more defensive choosing when to strike punishing bad descions Learning all the experience and praise i have had from my Bowser ima take all that and put it into this guy a more succesful and abl bowser (sorry to say but you know its true..]

Hmmm..i know theres need of improvement on my Ganon but im not sure how..this guy out the 3 i want to improve on the most!

 

[Dark Phazon]

Watch this and study it closely: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u-4omOZvjY

As you can see, Ganon (and C Fal) have to do a certain amount of guess work after they throw a spacie. When you have them grabbed you're two main options should be down throw or up throw, only switch it up when you know you can convert and follow effectively. Once you throw them (up or down) they're probably going to tech roll left or right. Thats where the guess work comes into play.

The most common **** for Ganon to try on Falco is: Grab-->Down throw--->Read their tech and react (you'll have to guess occasionaly)--->Dair to pop them up---> RE-GRAB--->Repeat until they're at a percent that a Bair/Fair/Uair will get them off stage or KO. The stomp---> Grab/Re-grab element is very crucial for Ganon. You can try it on computers with good results.

HOLY ****!! i gotta learn how he does that down throw into jab then aerieal down (A)!!!
But that Down throw into down smash then down aerial into upsmash...(¤_0)...was just disgusting...that bloody honesty took like 60 damage...i have to do that combo on my friend before i leave this earth.

[Im gone bed now talk to you guys tomorrow and thank you everyone.]

 

[Bones0]

Is this Mahone's troll account?

Mahone's "Mahone" account is his troll account... >_>

I see what you're saying, but to me it seems like he's just limiting himself on purpose by using low tiers and justifying it by saying he doesn't want to use high tiers AT ALL or just spam a decent move because it's effective. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with being comfortable/uncomfortable with any character and more with him not wanting his friend to call his characters moveset "cheap" or Marths F-Smash "OP". It doesn't seem realistic considering that at his current level, I think it's fair to say that he can still find any character comfortable if he shoves his pre-concieved idea about how he should play aside. He already mentioned that he like Roy's mechanics enjoyable and that he was comfortable with Roy. I don't see the logic in him forcing himself to not use the much more suited incarnation of Roy.



But he said in one of his posts that his friend pretty much left him with no options anyway. Him refusing to try a character who's more equipped to counter the issue just seems unreasonable.

Doc and Samus aren't low tiers. Shroomed got top 8 at Apex with Doc FFS. Also, it doesn't matter at all considering he said he has no interest in entering tournaments and becoming the best. If he's just out to be the best on his block, any character will do.

Roy and Marth play completely different, so him switching from Roy to Marth will hardly be any easier than switching from Roy to Link, especially if he doesn't have a well-developed DDWD game.

My point was that he can certainly switch to a different character and get short term results, but his friend who is very familiar with Falco will just pick another trick from his book, and then he'll start beating him with that trick over and over. If he's only been practicing with Marth for a little and only prepared to deal with that one trick, he's not going to be able to adapt mid-game. If he uses someone he's used for a long time, he will not only be better at applying his own tricks, but if his friend switches up what he's doing then he'll be able to counter that trick intuitively.

 

[EbAgItachi]

There's also some other stuff you should do that I don't think anyone has mentioned yet. I recommend trying it with Doc first because his Aerials are easier to work with. Go to FD and drill yourself, like do this as many times consecutively: Nuetral Air--->Back Air---> Down Air ---> Forward Air ---> Up Air --- repeat (ALL SHFFLd of course..) and if you mess one up start over completely.

The other one is wavedashing across FD, like only wavedash. Start on one end, try to get as far as possible from one end to the other and back. If you mess up once start over completely. Really useful drills will improve your game a lot.

 

[JKJ]

In regards to Doctor Mario:
After down throw, I usually follow up with an up air, or a bair if I'm near the ledge to send them offstage. I'm usually on the other end of the Doc/Falco matchup though. All I know is that Doc's recovery is stellar if used correctly. Always use Doc's Down B FIRST when recovering, as it has ending lag in the air and will not gain much vertical distance. Doing it early for horizontal distance is the best option. From there, float down with capes, then up-b to grab the ledge or interrupt and edgeguard. It's best to save your double jump if possible, in case you are hit offstage again and now cannot use your down b.
Ganondorf:
I like downthrow to jab. I like it a lot. Use Up airs to edgeguard (the backwards hit semi-spikes) and back airs. Also, dont forget his NAIR. everyone disregards it. its actually quite useful to space.
Samus:
I play a super aggressive tech heavy samus. I super wavedash all over the place and extender grab for the lolz. (if you don't know what either of those are, look them up.) The sheer amounts of recovery shenanigans you can pull with Samus is amazing. She is but one of my many, many secondaries, and I love playing as her. very rewarding and balanced imo.

Best wishes!

 

[EbAgItachi]

Mahone's "Mahone" account is his troll account... >_>



Doc and Samus aren't low tiers. Shroomed got top 8 at Apex with Doc FFS. Also, it doesn't matter at all considering he said he has no interest in entering tournaments and becoming the best. If he's just out to be the best on his block, any character will do.

Roy and Marth play completely different, so him switching from Roy to Marth will hardly be any easier than switching from Roy to Link, especially if he doesn't have a well-developed DDWD game.

My point was that he can certainly switch to a different character and get short term results, but his friend who is very familiar with Falco will just pick another trick from his book, and then he'll start beating him with that trick over and over. If he's only been practicing with Marth for a little and only prepared to deal with that one trick, he's not going to be able to adapt mid-game. If he uses someone he's used for a long time, he will not only be better at applying his own tricks, but if his friend switches up what he's doing then he'll be able to counter that trick intuitively.

**Lower tiered than better characters are then ?? Let's not get too caught up with specific character placements here. The characters he enjoys using are not as good as the ones he could use to learn how to deal with spacie nonsense (yes I know shroomed is amazing, had the luxury to MM him at Apex lol). He has no interest in going to tournies. Fine. I get that. But he's seeking information and he's motivated to get better regardless. I'm not going to withhold useful information because he believes he'll never enter a tournament.

I told him this earlier in the thread, I don't think he should drop his mid-tiered characters and pick up a high tier, but learning how a high tier deals with another high tier can still teach you how to deal with that high tier with your preferred character (wherever said character lies on the tier list). I understand the concept of not trying to learn multiple characters at once because you can spread your focus too thin, but at their current level, it seems like the most important edge he needs right now is superior movement and the motivation to improve.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Mahone's "Mahone" account is his troll account... >_>



Doc and Samus aren't low tiers. Shroomed got top 8 at Apex with Doc FFS. Also, it doesn't matter at all considering he said he has no interest in entering tournaments and becoming the best. If he's just out to be the best on his block, any character will do.

Roy and Marth play completely different, so him switching from Roy to Marth will hardly be any easier than switching from Roy to Link, especially if he doesn't have a well-developed DDWD game.

My point was that he can certainly switch to a different character and get short term results, but his friend who is very familiar with Falco will just pick another trick from his book, and then he'll start beating him with that trick over and over. If he's only been practicing with Marth for a little and only prepared to deal with that one trick, he's not going to be able to adapt mid-game. If he uses someone he's used for a long time, he will not only be better at applying his own tricks, but if his friend switches up what he's doing then he'll be able to counter that trick intuitively.

Wow! your like psychic seriously everything you said is 100/ everytime we have a hook up i always got a new tactic up my sleeve and he always starts to copy it or find a counter he is veryyy good at adapting but im not..but tbh he just copies alotttaa stuff that i come up with first..
heres a shortlist of stuff hes used since i start doing and crushing him with.

Sidestep
L-Cancel
Shield Grab when approached with a Aerial
Tech

Whats annoying about him is that he plays the way that narrows down everything in such a way it always come down to how fast his side smash is etc..thats why i bloody hate Falco...its sooo much harder to beat him than when hes Cpt.Falcon....i promise to myself i will crush him..if he beats me in our next hook up..then i will admit hes better than me and i will never face him again..

Imo me personally i think im a more skilled player than him...but he has everything else..confidence...adaptation..
Im can never think straight when i face him..i just do stuff that seems right at the time..without really thinking about it.....im alwayz nervous...

I one time demolished him when i had a stale chewing gum on the side of my mouth chewing it while playing...when i spat that out couple games later....i start losing..theres another reason too but..when we hook up majority of the time we play were in the clouds...if you know what i mean..and i dont visit the clouds at all...only when i meet him occasionaly..but he visits the clouds ALOTTT!! maybe he better knows how to deal with it? didnt wanna bring this up..loool dont wanna use it as a excuse...

Wavedashing seems alot like Wallbouncing in gears of war theres a time and place to use it effectively and overdoing it is bad.

 

[bearsfan092]

I think what would benefit you is straight up thinking. Take your beating for a day, and then think on it afterwards on how to beat that Falco. I'm a Falco main myself, and when I first started learning, I had a hard time beating dash attack spam by my friend's Shiek. I'd just get served up and then hit by the fair for the kill.

That went on for awhile. I rolled too much back then, so that hurt me. Instead of rolling, I'd stay in shield and just grab. If I was at a low percentage, sometimes I'd crouch cancel and then respond quickly. These days, I don't do the crouch cancel thing as much. I generally WD back from the dash attack, throw out a laser and then try comboing from there.

I'm still not great, but the point is, there's always a way to beat someone's "go-to" routine. If they get really reliant on it, you can turn the tables on them so fast.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I agree i think so even myself that i could beat my friend without WD i just gotta proper know what im doing and whens the best time to do or not do something.

Also what does ''FD'' Mean? The falco guy here told me to go to ''FD'' and drill myself? xD im sure its not a corny sexual insult looool?

 

[EbAgItachi]

Final Destination lmao

Most people play on more stages than just FD, but I just remembered that you and your friend only play on FD so obviously if you're going to practice anything you'd go there.

That being said, keep in mind that Battlefield is a great stage for practicing wavelands and stuff. Anywhere with stable platforms is good practice really.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Final Destination lmao

ok iyt cool man sorry i dont know the whole pro
lingo...my bad but thanks Falco guy for helping me to beat Falco lol your cool guy thnkz.

 

[EbAgItachi]

ok iyt cool man sorry i dont know the whole pro
lingo...my bad but thanks Falco guy for helping me to beat Falco lol your cool guy thnkz.

No problem dude. Fox and Falco are both pieces of **** for being such dumb characters, but I love em lol.

 

[Dark Phazon]

No problem dude. Fox and Falco are both pieces of **** for being such dumb characters, but I love em lol.

Tbh..what would help me more than Anyythinnngggg is how do i get out of Falcos standard (A) combos? will morph ball spam work close range then nuteral aerial (A) when the bombs rise me?

omgg my mate is trash talking me on FB..saying i will never beat him ever...my days im soo pissed!! (x_x)!!!! Arghhh im steaming mad!!! seriously!! Omg..im so familar with samus..i just feel like dropping everyone even Doc and just concetrate on being a Uber Samus Godly Samus... omg his taunting is..words cant
describe this guy..hes the god of trash talk and getting on your nerves trust me...

 

[Jockmaster]

Stop being such a noob. Believe it or not just sitting in shield stops like 99% of noob spammy ****. He clearly doesnt know what shield pressure is, so don't worry about that just yet. Just wait for him to commit to using the ******* moves he is spamming and counter them

Its so free

 

[Dark Hart]

Yea dude, playing high when you're not used to smoking isn't exactly a winning option

 

[Dark Phazon]

Yea dude, playing high when you're not used to smoking isn't exactly a winning option

Ahh..yh...when im high im all relaxed and i just do what ever. i just wanna be entertained lol so i just wanna play play play! reguardless if i win or lose...

But yh..my confidence is whats lacking the most..too bad i only can practice against cpu's..i cant learn how to tech his dowm throw and stuff..maybe i will try playing as defensive and counter as much as i can against a lvl9 Falco..might
help..

Just got of the phone with him know..after him laughing at me..(-_-)..strangly he said ''you should be Sheik shes crazy''

I said ''yh i know shes madness..''

 

[Bing]

Teching the downthrow is actually really easy, you should be able to get it fairly easily.

 

[Dark Hart]

Actually you should totally pick up Sheik

He will get so mad

 

[Dark Phazon]

Ermmm..i dont think its gonna be any time soon when me & my mate are gonna play..hes busy and stuff..and i cant bare to over train..i matched a lvl9 falco repeadly and have pretty much pre-d his moves and only lost like 1 or 2 stock (i know its a CPU..)

Might aswell just wait...what ever happens happens..

 

[Swann]

Honestly, you should be playing level 3-5 computers and just practicing combos on different DIs. Level 9s do dumb things.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Honestly, you should be playing level 3-5 computers and just practicing combos on different DIs. Level 9s do dumb things.

Thats what i was doing.

Practicing combos and Wavedashing. & counters

 

[Coen]

#1 i dont wanna choose Fox/Sheik/Marth/Peach and certainly dont wanna spam moves just to beat him no matter how bad i wanna beat him.

I usually don't post anymore and sorry for pointing this out to you Dark Phazon, but as a veteran player with lots of tournament experience, I have to say that this is one of the most common scrub misconceptions. Don't let yourself be fooled by a mindset in which 'spamming' is not ok. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you can beat someone by spamming, that person is not good enough to deal with it. As a pro you constantly have to deal with Falco's lasers, but that's just part of Falco's playstyle and I wouldn't call it spam any day. Instead, you should be busy trying to figure out how to avoid those lasers. In tournament play, Falco is a top tier character, but by no means unbeatable. Only a select few (for example Dr. Peepee) are truly capable of exploiting everything Falco is capable of. And even at that level players can get around laser spam.

What we've learned: Use a move to whichever extent you like as long as you're using it at the right time right place. No one will smack you for it and it WILL help you with your progress making it all more comfortable.

Don't fool yourself bro.

 

[Dark Phazon]

I usually don't post anymore and sorry for pointing this out to you Dark Phazon, but as a veteran player with lots of tournament experience, I have to say that this is one of the most common scrub misconceptions. Don't let yourself be fooled by a mindset in which 'spamming' is not ok. Basically what I'm trying to say is that if you can beat someone by spamming, that person is not good enough to deal with it. As a pro you constantly have to deal with Falco's lasers, but that's just part of Falco's playstyle and I wouldn't call it spam any day. Instead, you should be busy trying to figure out how to avoid those lasers. In tournament play, Falco is a top tier character, but by no means unbeatable. Only a select few (for example Dr. Peepee) are truly capable of exploiting everything Falco is capable of. And even at that level players can get around laser spam.

What we've learned: Use a move to whichever extent you like as long as you're using it at the right time right place. No one will smack you for it and it WILL help you with your progress making it all more comfortable.

Don't fool yourself bro.

Thank you for the advice i greatly appreciate it but i rarely spam moves anyway not even for that reason just that its not benefical..expecially not as much as spamming Falcos side smash..

Yh but my mate dont jump lazer spam hes not pro. He shoots at the start of the match and whenever were far apart.

He doesnt wavedash he doesnt shine into pillaring.

Hes busy at work nowadays..there aint much talk or motive for a rematch..they might not be one ever or for qyt some time..but the trash talk*still goes on (-_-) but not as excessive..

He can say what he wants..i beat him the 2nd last time we played and he beat me this time..meh..

Im focused now more smart more defensive more combos i know how to counter and properly DI to counter his moves and do a grapple i shield grab the crap outta him and he start doing it now..just like he copies all my stuff..i use to whoop his *** so bad when i used to start sidestepping against him i never used to side step before ever! but i learnt how good it is and im sick at it and now he does it he over does it..

Same with L-Cancel and Teching he copied me.

But now i edge guard and wavedash something i never used to do..if we ever play again i will crush him with samus and doc and ganon.

I believe i am more skilled then him. but hes mello and focused i lack confidence get nervous and react before i think..

it gets tiresome and annoying how he ties the game down to snail pace..where were both dodging and just standing.only untill my character cant keep up with how fast falco can role and dish out a Sidesmash..(-_-)..

But whatever i dont blame him if he laughs when i say i would crush you when your falco this time without me being Sheik/Fox/Falco/Marth..

because i never have..im not even saying this to brag honestly but if i was to practice with Falco and Falcon im sure i could beat him with his own characters..i understand the game mechanics better than him no doubt also i strive to be better and he doesnt..

Thats why i want this rematch so bad because i know it would end this 8+ year melee rivalry we have had because i know he wouldnt be bothered to get better!

Theres many fighting games out theres but most of those chars are strictly exclusives to the said fighting game but not smash not nintendo the chars in smash are special and all have huge fans and love and popularity i aint gonna be a char just because there high tier..

But yes i love bowser and Mewtwo the most i should main them by my point right? true but tbh..they just suck so bad..i would never beat my mate with those chars i admit it..

my Bowser has only beat his Falcon like 2 or 3 times outta like 30 matches..and has NEVER beat his Falco.. Mewtwo has like abit more wins on Falcon but still way negative..and i think i have beat his Falco atleast once with mewtwo..

But i love metroid so im samus and i like doc and luigi. I havent played Zelda at all but Ganon is cool badass soo.. yh..

Whatever happens happens..rematch or not.

If we dont play ima tell him to shut his mouth about all the crap because were neck and neck he won once and i won once so shut yo mouth if you dont wanna rematch.

If we do have a rematch i will train Train HARD! For it and im not imbarrses to do so or admit to him because he doesnt train at all..but ima destroy him soo bad its not even funny..all that spam smash missles when hes tryna recover flamethrow into aerial down throw into charge beam (cheap combo he hates..) (-_-) i dont give a crap hes gonna lose HARD!!

 

[Nicco]

Why don't you learn to wavedash?
It sounds like both of you are playing at a low lvl.
Step up your game and u'll beat him.
Srsly u play luigi and don't wavedash? And Samus?
Also learn to waveland. And learn to punish Falco, when he's off the ledge.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Since this thread started i learnt to wavedash. i can wavedash now pretty good with samus and luigi its easiest with them two and pretty easy with doc. abit harder with ganon but hes beast so i expect it xD.

Were not bad just that we dont use all advance tech and stuff and if that makes up noobs then so be it..

Hes used to fear my samus untill he got even better with Falco..but imo im better now with samus than ever before! and boy he is in for a nasty suprise when he sees a comfortable doc mario.

thats if hes on doing a rematch..but tbh atm this thread could die...nothings gonna happen atm. im sure im good to go i have stopped training because theres no point atm i think i have learnt enough new stuff just need to perfect it but i wont untill a rematch is confirmed.

All in all thank you everyone for all your advice and support i would have not learned and picked up all this stuff so fast without you lot! you taught me what truly matters and what will help me win! all chocolates without the wrappers! if you know what i mean.

and thats what i like and appreciate honesty too. thank you all.