The Monitor Problem

[Fizzi]

Problem Definition

Smashers have been using CRTs for years. These TVs are known to have a very short time interval between the game console sending a signal to the TV, and the TV actually displaying. The result of this is that the TVs feel "responsive". In more precise words, when a player sends an input using their controller, their character reacts immediately on screen. So the driving factor for using CRTs is their responsiveness.

Unfortunately, the CRT has its fair share of problems. Here is a breakdown of their pros and cons with respect to competitive gaming:

Pros:
-Extremely responsive
-Low cost

Cons:
-Very bulky and heavy, hard to transport
-Image quality not excellent
-No standard CRT exists and some CRTs brought to tournamnets are simply awful
-Impossible to find in stores

These cons are rather problematic with respect to tournaments. It is even worse for competitive gaming companies that provide set ups for their tournaments. It is very difficult for these companies to buy 40 of the same kind of CRT. Even if they could it would be a huge hassle to transport them from tournament to tournament. Even if they could do that, if one CRT happens to break they likely won't be able to replace it in the future as they'll become less and less available. In short, it quite simply cannot work.

If we want our game to grow we really have no choice, we have to get out of CRTs.

HDTVs

HDTVs are essentially the only kind of television you will find in stores nowadays. Historically, we have tried using these monitors and have always been dissapointed. Most of these TVs are marketed at the mass consumer that watches sports, movies, etc on their TV. What this means is that the companies try to make the image as clear, vibrant, and sharp as possible. To do this, they sacrifice responsiveness. The casual television watcher will not notice anything wrong if their movie is displayed 200 ms late, they are not part of the input process and therefore do not notice any problem.

Gamers are part of the input process and if Captain Falcon starts dashing 200 ms after I told him to, I'm gonna be pretty pissed off.

Rather recently, monitors have been released targetting gamers. These monitors have become heavilly used by the FGC. The problem with these monitors for our use is that they normally take an HDMI input, which we have no direct access to. And even if we did, the max signal output we can generate is 480p from a Wii or a pre-2004 Gamecube. Getting this output requires the right cables which are not shipped with the Wii or GC.

Most of these monitors have a native resolution of either 1080p or 720p. This is fine for the FGC because their fancy XBox's or PS3's can output at that resolution. Whereas, as described above, our systems cannot.

Possible Solutions

Based on what has been mentioned so far, the extra problems we have over the FGC in getting lagless HDTV displays are the following:
1) Convert a component 480p output to an HDMI 480p output without introducing any lag
2) Find a monitor that fits the listed sub-requirements
2a) Must take a 480p signal and display it without introducing upscalling lag
2b) Must be capable of displaying the image at 4:3 aspect ratio without introducing any lag

I have seen two potential solutions for problem 1.

Neoya Wii2HDMI (Or similar products)
This device can be found here: http://www.neoya.com/shop/wii2hdmi/

The device plugs into the back of the Wii, enabling an HDMI output. I have not seen any information regarding whether lag is introduced via this method.

AVerMedia C875
Information about this device can be found here: http://www.avermedia.com/product/ProductDetail.aspx?Id=580

This device was recently mentioned on Facebook by Alex Jebailey. It accepts a component input and can then output HDMI with, based on testimonials and some testing, no visible lag. It has the added benefit of being a capture card and the downside of being far more expensive.

Problem 2 is still up in the air as we need to test monitors for this.

List of known, lagless monitors:
Asus VH236H (Evo Monitor)

More information about potential solutions can be found here:
http://smashboards.com/threads/melee-on-hdtvs.339146/

 

[Zankoku]

I just ordered the Neoya Wii2HDMI device, I'll let you know the results when I receive it.

 

[Fizzi]

I just ordered the Neoya Wii2HDMI device, I'll let you know the results when I receive it.

You're awsome, thanks.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I keep seeing posts about how CRTs are terrible, they don't work, they're hard to find, etc etc
But I've never had a problem and I don't know anyone who has
I think we're creating issues where they don't exist. We're going to have more setup problems if we switch to a $150 monitor and a $180 converter, plus only being able to use Wiis or somehow getting $100 gamecube cables.
CRTs are fine. Maybe in the far, far future it will become a problem but by that time other alternatives will exist so it's pointless to plan for it now. Besides, it's not like all CRTs are going to suddenly disappear all at once. We'll have time to make the switch.

 

[Fizzi]

Did you read my cons?

One big problem is the lack of uniformity. People always talk about how CRTs have slightly different lag. Some are puny, some have sound that doesn't work, some have aspect ratio problems, some have color discoloration, some randomly turn off. If everyone brought a high quality CRT to tournaments there would be less of a problem. Uniformity alone is a big enough problem to warrant change.

Also, using CRTs is not sustainable for the future AND it can hamper our growth in the moment. They are a non-starter for any major event that provides their own set ups.

Saying you don't know anyone that has had a problem is a little silly. Have you ever been at least a little annoyed that you had to play your tournament set on a TV that is absolutely terrible? I bet a bunch of people have experienced that.

The price is pretty high, I agree, hopefully the $30 adapter works out, that would help a lot. Not everyone has to have one immediately, but it would be nice if some people in the community at least started to change the perception that it's impossible to play melee on an HDTV without lag.

This is not a call to arms to start a war against CRTs until they are all dead. What is important for now is to at least provide people with enough exposure to them that people will be completely fine with an event such as MLG/Evo using the monitors to host Melee (for example).

 

[Bad Cupboard]

It's just that CRTs are in no way hard to come by. I agree that in the future we may need a different solution, but as it is I can literally go to good will and buy 10 TVs for the price of one of your setups
If Melee survives that long, it WILL be in issue since CRTs have a limited lifespan, but for now and in the foreseeable future I just can't imagine it being a problem.

Also very very few CRTs have any lag at all, and those are usually the giant ones. And honestly I would rather deal with a ****ty CRT with color issues than a flatscreen that someone could have set up wrong causing lag.

 

[Zankoku]

As it is I can fit 5 HDTVs in the space of one CRT in my car. Price of purchase alone isn't the sole deciding factor when it comes to providing the hardware for a large tournament. Between having the chance to play every single game at a given tournament on the same TV, lesser space constraints, *actually being available in the new product retail market*, and being the standard for pretty much every other big game that's being run at major video game tournaments, there are plenty of reasons why looking into HDTV solutions is going to be helpful.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

Switching to flatscreens COULD be fine, but the TO would have to provide them. If you think everyone is gonna show up with the same lagless flatscreen and the same lagless adapter then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Zankoku]

If you think major tournaments always ask every game to bring their own setups then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

If you think you can talk about how much easier it is to bring flatscreens to a tournament in one post and then talk about how irrelevant that is in the next post then you're sadly mistaken.

 

[Zankoku]

It's very relevant, just not in the sense you're thinking - just about every major tournament supplies their own setups for all the games they run, including the big two of EVO and MLG. While it's commendable for a community to come together and supply the tournament with hardware, it's ultimately a characteristic of grassroots events. Not to mention, it runs the risk of things such as the scare in the night before EVO when everyone was worried that not enough TVs/Gamecubes were brought, and the very real shortage of setups that occurred during APEX 2012.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

If we could laglessy plug gamecubes and wiis into Evo monitors natively, I would agree with you for the most part. It's just that having to have that adapter creates a host of new problems. While the adapters are certainly still being produced, they're still much harder to come by than CRTs right now.
Being able to use the same monitors as other games would be fantastic, but if you still need an adapter for it then we could still run into setup problems. In the Evo issue, for example, instead of people keeping their CRTs in their rooms for friendlies instead we'd have people keeping adapters in their rooms. If the TO could provide them then that's great, but that's a pretty large cost for something that a $10 CRT will do just as well or better.

Basically, there are 2 scenarios that can happen. One, the TO provides setups. In that case, the burden wouldn't be on the players to lug heavy, cumbersome CRTs around. That's good, it's definitely a plus. But it would be expensive, and wouldn't really solve setup issues since Smash would be limited by how many adapters we have anyway. Two, the players bring in setups. This wouldn't really work well since it would be difficult to ensure all the adapters and flatscreens are lagless and basically no one has them right now. Even if it did become a standard, a lot of our setups come from people who bring a ton at once and the cost would definitely bring that down significantly.
In general, I just can't see the transition working well right now.

 

[Zankoku]

Mr. Wizard was so unfamiliar with having to look on places like eBay and Craigslist for TVs and Wiis that are no longer found in the non-used market that we had to provide our own setups, regardless of them being a fraction of the cost of HD monitors and current-gen consoles. For the rest of the games? EVO itself supplied something like 40 Asus VH236H monitors, which cost about $130 each, along with a PS3 and game disc for each of those monitors.

Again, you're thinking in terms of grassroots only (or VxG only, lolol), where everything is supplied by the gamers, but when it comes to majors for any modern game it's the norm for the tournament organizer to provide all the hardware and games. The easier it can be made for our game to conform to a hardware standard that is already available to the TO (Asus VH236H's or BenQ RL2455HM's), the better off we are and less reliant we'll need to be on PLAYERS being responsible for tournament equipment.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

"Hey Mr Wizard, I heard you had some setup issues at Evo. I think I have the perfect solution"
"Oh yeah? Let's hear it"
"So you know how hard it was to get $10 CRTs from good will? Instead, you could just buy a bunch of $180 adapters, that way we could use the same monitors as other games!"
"BRILLIANT"

- A conversation that will never happen ever​

 

[Zankoku]

Hey, remember when I mentioned I ordered the Neoya Wii2HDMI adapter? That cost $21 on Amazon.
By the way, trying to skimp on costs in exchange for running the risk of not being able to run the tournament at all if too many players flake? Not exactly ideal professionally.

Are you gonna keep trying to shoot down exploring the possibility with the same arguments, or do you have something new to mention yet?

 

[Bad Cupboard]

I'll be thrilled if the cheap HDMI adapter works, but i have doubts since the monitor will still have to scale the image, which is what introduces lag in the first place. Exploring different possibilities is a good thing, I just don't want a tournament to prematurely make the switch when it's entirely unnecessary.

And you can't just blow off the cost issue like that because it IS an issue. You're saying that's better than players flaking out on bringing setups (and it is) but I'll pose a question to you: How is it easier for a TO to buy an adapter over a CRT? In both cases Smash needs something that other games don't, so what's the benefit of using the adapter + a flatscreen? Like I said earlier, we'd be limited to how many adapters we have anyway so what's the benefit of using that solution over a CRT? Size is pretty much the only thing I can think of, since right now CRTs are cheaper and more widely available.

Just because Mr Wizard had the community provide setups doesn't mean that's how it has to work. CRT's do not have magic anti-tournament forcefields preventing TOs from providing them.

 

[Fizzi]

You might be surprised as to the possibility of that conversation happening.

Anyway, Aisight, did you get the official Neoya one on Amazon? I couldn't find it, I only found some that apparently upscaled to 720p/1080p. Apparently the official Neoya one keeps it at 480p.

 

[Zankoku]

I'll be thrilled if the cheap HDMI adapter works, but i have doubts since the monitor will still have to scale the image, which is what introduces lag in the first place. Exploring different possibilities is a good thing, I just don't want a tournament to prematurely make the switch when it's entirely unnecessary.

The AverMedia LiveGamer Portable doesn't scale the image either. I personally verified that the Asus VH236H is able to scale a 480p signal to fullscreen with less than a frame of input delay. It's definitely better to look at the possibility sooner rather than later, seeing as how CRTs are beyond end-of-life in terms of support.

And you can't just blow off the cost issue like that because it IS an issue. You're saying that's better than players flaking out on bringing setups (and it is) but I'll pose a question to you: How is it easier for a TO to buy an adapter over a CRT? In both cases Smash needs something that other games don't, so what's the benefit of using the adapter + a flatscreen? Like I said earlier, we'd be limited to how many adapters we have anyway so what's the benefit of using that solution over a CRT? Size is pretty much the only thing I can think of, since right now CRTs are cheaper and more widely available.

Part of the issue of the TO providing CRTs is that there is no way currently to get 20+ of the same brand and model of a quality CRT. The other part is that companies which run circuits around the country (presently, MLG) will have a hell of a time transporting said 20+ CRTs compared to the same number of LCD HD monitors. How are we limited to how many adapters we have? Last I checked the Wii2HDMI adapter is still being marketed and produced, and getting a bunch of those at $21 each isn't much worse in initial cost than hunting down a bunch of CRTs for $10. How can you claim a CRT TV is more widely available when there's literally no commercial production for them any more? The bunch of people throwing away their old stuff for cheap isn't really gonna rival a constantly-restocked supply of product.

Just because Mr Wizard had the community provide setups doesn't mean that's how it has to work. CRT's do not have magic anti-tournament forcefields preventing TOs from providing them.

You're right about not having to ask the community to provide setups. MLG outright decided to just run Brawl on laggy HD monitors in their 2010 circuit, and expressed that they're both unwilling to find used CRTs AND not about to get TVs from the community if they were to ever bring Smash back to their circuit.

Anyway, Aisight, did you get the official Neoya one on Amazon? I couldn't find it, I only found some that apparently upscaled to 720p/1080p. Apparently the official Neoya one keeps it at 480p.

Thank you for pointing that out to me :V
Ordering the official one now~

 

[Bad Cupboard]

If the Wii2HDMI adapter works then I'll be thrilled. I'd like nothing more than to be proven wrong right now.
I just don't think an expensive adapter like the LGP is the way to go, at least not yet.

 

[Bones0]

I agree that people worrying about setups are being ridiculous. Controllers being hard to find is a much bigger threat, and even that is pretty far off seeing as how you can still find basically new controllers without much trouble.

The real benefit to getting Melee playable on monitors is that tournaments with other games don't need an entire area dedicated to Melee. TOs are no doubt concerned with trying to run Melee at their events because it means finding room for a bunch of CRTs that will be used only for one specific game. To most TOs, it's way easier to just not run a Melee bracket at their tourney than it is to hassle with all that stuff. Either way it's not a BIG deal since the Melee community is fine hosting its own ****, but it's hard to ignore the possibility of lagless Melee on monitors when it means we get that extra bit of exposure and professional events already available for other games.

 

[Fizzi]

I agree that people worrying about setups are being ridiculous. Controllers being hard to find is a much bigger threat, and even that is pretty far off seeing as how you can still find basically new controllers without much trouble.

Have they stopped producing the White Japanese controllers?

 

[Kadano]

Here is a breakdown of their pros and cons with respect to competitive gaming:

Pros:
-Extremely responsive
-Great colors
-Cheap
-Work with standard bundled cables (composite)

Cons:
-Very bulky and heavy, hard to transport
-Image quality not excellent (interlaced mode only)
-No standard CRT exists and some CRTs brought to tournaments are simply awful
-Impossible to find in stores

Added important pros.

Have they stopped producing the White Japanese controllers?

Yes, I think that was 1 or 2 years ago.

Are there other tournament series exept Evo where CRTs are a big problem?

 

[Zankoku]

Anything not named APEX where Smash is not the only game being run.

 

[TerryJ]

It kinda sucks that we have to stick to older TV's which aren't really produced anymore. For that reason it is kinda scary knowing that eventually we'll have to make some kind of switch to different technology. I personally would love to buy a Wii adapter or the C875 but I'm dirt poor (like many others) so that isn't going to happen any time soon.

Is it really that hard to run into CRT's though? Where I live there is a Goodwill every corner so it's not impossible to find them. Controllers is another story. Unless people start 3D printing them we're going to run out.

 

[michael_li]

how much lag is the evo lcd

 

[Zone]

eh I agree with Bad Cupboard.

You are all trying to make a huge problem out of something that has never FULLY been a problem. Can anyone link me a smash tournament major that was cancelled because we didn't have enough set ups?

I just have this feeling by the time lack of CRT ever becomes a problem in the super far future. We'll be having melee copy problems at the same time. I simply would not attend a smash tournament that ran on a HDTV, when the CRT option is still available.


Who's gonna want to RE-train themselves for TV lag when you go to nationals? vs grass roots?

Unless you suggest grassroots ALSO changes to HDTV, which is asking a lot from smashers. Dunno about smashers in your area, but everyone down here is poor as fuwah. I have to pay for people's gas rides to get here sometimes.

 

[PCwizCube]

I heard the Wii U has (or will have) gamecube games that you can download and play through the Wii U. Would these games lag on HDTVs? I also wonder if Wii games played on the Wii U lag on HDTVs as well.

 

[Zankoku]

how much lag is the evo lcd

10ms, or about half a frame.

eh I agree with Bad Cupboard.

You are all trying to make a huge problem out of something that has never FULLY been a problem. Can anyone link me a smash tournament major that was cancelled because we didn't have enough set ups?

I just have this feeling by the time lack of CRT ever becomes a problem in the super far future. We'll be having melee copy problems at the same time. I simply would not attend a smash tournament that ran on a HDTV, when the CRT option is still available.


Who's gonna want to RE-train themselves for TV lag when you go to nationals? vs grass roots?

Unless you suggest grassroots ALSO changes to HDTV, which is asking a lot from smashers. Dunno about smashers in your area, but everyone down here is poor as fuwah. I have to pay for people's gas rides to get here sometimes.

We're looking for HD monitor solutions that keep lag to under a frame. The purpose of this is to find the optimal option for TOs who provide all setups and run tournaments where Smash is not the main game. Grassroots can carry on however they like.

I heard the Wii U has (or will have) gamecube games that you can download and play through the Wii U. Would these games lag on HDTVs? I also wonder if Wii games played on the Wii U lag on HDTVs as well.

They would not lag, but the Wii U does not have Gamecube peripheral support. You can buy an adapter that connects a Gamecube controller to a Wii remote, but since that's wireless it introduces 1-2 frames of input delay as well as not being a sound input device for non-grassroots major tournaments.

 

[Bones0]

Can't you get a GCN to Wii U adapter that uses the USB port?

 

[Zankoku]

One does not exist yet, to my knowledge.

 

[Fizzi]

Commenting that you'll have to train for sub-frame lag is a bit of an unknown. I could tease it the other way and say that perhaps sub-frame HDTV lag actually feels more responsive than a CRT, reason being that on a CRT you only ever see half a frame. Does not seeing half the frame result in a semblance of one frame lag? I don't know.

It may be that the transition from CRT to "lagless" HDTV is actually very smooth. People have tried it and said it felt great, including Hbox and some rather technical foxes.

Once again, I think, at the very LEAST, we have to make using HDTVs a viable option for large tournaments such as Evo/MLG. For that, we need people to try them and hopefully it's good enough that people will want to play on those set ups.

I really want to do the test Aisight is doing but record the frame transitions with a high-speed camera to see what the frame change really looks like.

 

[Zone]

10ms, or about half a frame.


We're looking for HD monitor solutions that keep lag to under a frame. The purpose of this is to find the optimal option for TOs who provide all setups and run tournaments where Smash is not the main game. Grassroots can carry on however they like.


They would not lag, but the Wii U does not have Gamecube peripheral support. You can buy an adapter that connects a Gamecube controller to a Wii remote, but since that's wireless it introduces 1-2 frames of input delay as well as not being a sound input device for non-grassroots major tournaments.

I have the EVO monitor, and I've tried smash on it. While it's playable, You still feel something odd.

unless I'm somehow not doing it right.


too many potential variables to start switching now.

what if wii U does re-release Melee in their store? and we adopt the Wii U version? obviously I would get a gamecube controller and modify it to work for Wii U if I HAVE to. But the more changes you make at nationals to make it easier for "national TO's to run it" when I think even at nationals grassroots does a pretty good job of bringing the setups.

the more likely you are to get people who don't find it worth coming if they have to do all this extra stuff just to practice under EVO conditions.

 

[Zone]

each little extra thing we keep tacking on that we need to do, if we use Wii U just to run on HDTVs(need an adapter for GC controller), or converters for Wii's.

I can almost garantee you, you'll be alienating a bunch of people.




oops sorry Double Post.

 

[Fizzi]

Short term, we don't need to change anything.

But we need to pursue these methods such that large events will be more inclined to support us. We're in a state of some serious growth potential, that's why this is now becoming an issue. If we don't allow ourselves to consider adapting, we will surely die out eventually. I feel like some people are missing the importance.

Read this to understand the potential:
http://nintendoenthusiast.com/21025/why-super-smash-bros-can-be-the-next-major-esport/

Not that I completely agree with everything in that article but hopefully it gives an idea of what could be.

Imagine, when esports gets bigger, and somehow we manage to survive and be a supported game. Imagine our top players being able to turn melee into their job. Imagine the quality of play we would have at that point when people are practicing so hard. Now don't get me wrong... I'm realistic, and even to me, this sounds far off and potentially impossible. But one can hope. And one can do whatever possible to make it a possibility. That's why I made this thread.

 

[michael_li]

my monitor at home is 2ms, Samsung SyncMaster 226BW and i play smash on it through a vga coverter thing i bought. it doesn't lag either,

http://www.amazon.ca/INNOVATION-TECHNOLOGIES-GameCube-VGA-Box/dp/B0001YM06W


****ing **** *****. u jelly bro?

 

[KrIsP!]

Bad cupboard... >,>

Mr Wizard would have been thrilled by this. We pay them venue fees to pay for set ups. You're thinking what is 300$+ for us is 300$+ per set up and completely forgetting they rent what I'm sure amounts to over 100 asus monitors each year and have connections with the company. EVO organizers can't be running around from goodwill store to pawn shop trying to find a CRT and then paying for a place to store them all considering they don't live in Vegas and would need to get them months ahead of time when they're planning a huge tournament for many other games. It's not worth the hassle.As for the Aver Media LGP, they're marketing is directed at people like us, to the point that they sponsored CEO which is why Jebailey stumbled upon this entire thing.

You think if they heard that a game with 700 competitors and 134k viewers required their product to be run that they might want to cash in on the opportunity. Jebailey said he was going to inform them of this, I wouldn't be surprised if they considered offering him a few to run melee at CEO and a promo code for us cause I would definitely be interested in purchasing one at that point, plus it would be the first company to support us as a community.

People at MLG were interested in the idea, Jebailey is interested in it, Evo probably will be too. No tournament is going to demand we buy and bring these, they'll either contact Aver and rent some or ask us for CRTs...which I don't think is an option cause I heard aisight had his tvs stolen or something and he basically provided half of the tournament set ups for evo.

Just to add on, people underestimate the amount of work Alex Strife puts into collecting CRTs and overestimate the amount of CRTs people bring and everyone still has the gull to complain about the number of friendly set ups. This isn't going to be our standard, but if it's possible it sure as hell helps people running nationals, not 4 man smash fests.

 

[crush]

my monitor at home is 2ms, Samsung SyncMaster 226BW and i play smash on it through a vga coverter thing i bought. it doesn't lag either,

http://www.amazon.ca/INNOVATION-TECHNOLOGIES-GameCube-VGA-Box/dp/B0001YM06W


****ing **** *****. u jelly bro?

response time is not input lag. the number is deff a lot higher than 2ms. Also the innovation box does not output 480p. ur setup is essentially the same as plugging composite into a monitor. step it up doe

 

[Fizzi]

Bad cupboard... >,>

Mr Wizard would have been thrilled by this. We pay them venue fees to pay for set ups. You're thinking what is 300$+ for us is 300$+ per set up and completely forgetting they rent what I'm sure amounts to over 100 asus monitors each year and have connections with the company. EVO organizers can't be running around from goodwill store to pawn shop trying to find a CRT and then paying for a place to store them all considering they don't live in Vegas and would need to get them months ahead of time when they're planning a huge tournament for many other games. It's not worth the hassle.

I agree. The problem I'm trying to address though is that if Mr. Wizard had decided to use these, I think OUR community would have been upset about it. That's the mentality we need to change.

I even still need to prove to myself that it feels completely lagless. I haven't experienced it yet so I don't know. But I do know that at some level we don't have a choice for events such as Evo/MLG.

Actually, another issue I forgot to bring up is, is it possible to play on these monitors in 4:3 aspect ratio?

 

[Zankoku]

Yes, the Asus VH236H allows you to manually set the aspect ratio.

 

[Fizzi]

Yes, the Asus VH236H allows you to manually set the aspect ratio.

Still lagless?