Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[busken]

His neutral isn't as good as Sheik's neutral, but 6 jumps + great dash attack/grab + great ground mobility is basically all you need to play a good neutral game. It's hard to get Meta Knight to mess up. It's also hard to projectile camp him due to his size (in addition to those 6 jumps). Definitely one of the better neutrals in the game.

Once you get out of the "must have good short hop aerial" mentality, some characters like Greninja and Meta Knight really open up in neutral. -Solidsense

SH aerials don't = good neutral.



i like you, aim for the best screw the rest!

Super Smash bros Edit Edition: Just looked at the community list and MK is rock bottom, absolutely adorable.

I actually completely disagree. Approach and Zoning options practically define the neutral and Meta Knight struggles with both of them. Outside of dash attack, which isn't really that safe MK doesn't have any viable approach options. None of his aerials auto-cancel so approaching with those is just asking to be shield grabbed. As far as zoning goes, since MK has no projectile he must rely on his attacks none of which can zone safely, due to the lack luster range on them.

Their were many reason why MK was so good in brawl but one of the biggest reasons was because his neutral game was so safe. His aerials could auto-cancel, his dair covered him very well, both allowing to be good zoning options. His approach options in brawl and now are similar but in brawl he didn't have to approach you at all.

The nerf on his range essentially detonated the neutral that he was so famed for.

In brawl, the sonic MU was easy. All of aerials beat sonic's options due to transcendent priority, and Sonic alone had no way to approach outside of spin attacks.

Now, our aerials are practically trash in damage, range, and priority even though they keep similar frame data.

6 jumps mean nothing in neutral if you can't zone with them or apply safe pressure. His dash grab is great but it's only as its best when you can get it safely. Which means baiting a reaction. His ground mobility is good, but as I said he can't do anything with it.

In summary, MK neutral, imo, is not that good. Outside of dash attack you can't really approach. And they literally made his amazing zoning options into ****.

Where MK's shines are his follow-up ability and off-stage proficiency.

 

[warionumbah2]

I actually completely disagree. Approach and Zoning options practically define the neutral and Meta Knight struggles with both of them. Outside of dash attack, which isn't really that safe MK doesn't have any viable approach options. None of his aerials auto-cancel so approaching with those is just asking to be shield grabbed. As far as zoning goes, since MK has no projectile he must rely on his attacks none of which can zone safely, due to the lack luster range on them.

Their were many reason why MK was so good in brawl but one of the biggest reasons was because his neutral game was so safe. His aerials could auto-cancel, his dair covered him very well, both allowing to be good zoning options. His approach options in brawl and now are similar but in brawl he didn't have to approach you at all.

The nerf on his range essentially detonated the neutral that he was so famed for.

In brawl, the sonic MU was easy. All of aerials beat sonic's options due to transcendent priority, and Sonic alone had no way to approach outside of spin attacks.

Now, our aerials are practically trash in damage, range, and priority even though they keep similar frame data.

6 jumps mean nothing in neutral if you can't zone with them or apply safe pressure. His dash grab is great but it's only as its best when you can get it safely. Which means baiting a reaction. His ground mobility is good, but as I said he can't do anything with it.

In summary, MK neutral, imo, is not that good. Outside of dash attack you can't really approach. And they literally made his amazing zoning options into ****.

Where MK's shines are his follow-up ability and off-stage proficiency.

Dash attack is one of the safest dash attacks in the game, if you're getting shield grabbed then its your own fault you got an above average dash grab. Dair is still a solid zone option its just not viable against those who have good uairs or out range us completely.

MK can approach with dash attack,dash grab,behind opponents for a grab or fall on them with mach tornado. 6 jumps allows us to ignore projectiles in neutral and mix up our landings, when we take the lead we don't need to approach because we got that many jumps.

That's the whole point of MK: baiting. And he does better than a large chunk of characters in this game, he can use his ground mobility to bait reactions and punish anything within at least mid range.

Basically you compared Sm4sh MK that's been rebalanced to not decimate the whole competition to a broken unbeatable MK who had the meta in his hands, its not a fair comparison.. I agree that he has limited approach options but you downplay how safe DA is.

High Speed Drill is extremely helpful in neutral as well. Despite how 'bad' his neutral is, it doesn't stop MK from having advantageous MU against most of the cast so his 'bad' neutral as you say can be brushed off with a flick of the wrist.

I respect your opinion though.

 

[Katakiri]

How about Zero Suit Samus or Diddy Kong for this week's match up discussion? ZSS sounds a little more interesting IMO.

I don't think the Diddy boards have much to add to the discussion quite yet. They've kinda been in the same state the early MK board was in; more spam, trolling, and complaining than anything productive. I've been keeping my eye on them for a while. Their MU thread is kinda bad and when another board calls them over to discuss a MU, I haven't seen one reply from a Diddy main in those character's threads. If we do Diddy right now, it's just going to be us; I guarantee it. I may throw Diddy in as a double header with someone else since it is important to discuss even if it's just the MK side of things. We do have open discussions now so we're not just limited to that one week so if the Diddys even come around, the door's open.

ZSS sounds good. I'd also like to get to discussing Rosalina, Fox, and R.O.B. at some point. I'd personally like to get the word out about our Rosa MU a bit more, Fox could be a really interesting discussion, and I'm very familiar with R.O.B.

My experience with Brawl MK vs Olimar is that you shouldn't let Olimar do anything. Be all in-your-face against Olimar.
I believe it should be the same in Smash 4, like how Zero's Diddy went full on aggressive against Dabuz's Olimar at Apex.

Also, Upthrow seems to be good at killing Pikmin. I think @ Katakiri has some experience in the MU. I wouldn't go for platform camping because it gives Olimar time to pluck out the purple ones. You did really good, though. Congrats!

I don't know as much about Olimar as I'd like tbh. I fight them occasionally but it's not often enough for me to get a grip on the MU but you are right, rush-down is definitely the way to play.

 

[ItoI6]

rush down is the right way to play yes but if you have like a stock lead then theres really no need to continue to take risks and approach when he cant stop you from dair and platform camping. i could talk about vs falcon and oli but nothing else really atm, you should just pick whatever youre most experienced in.

 

[warionumbah2]

I say we do C.Falcon next, i do have a ZSS training partner who's stupidly good but he's pretty busy nowdays.

FG players can also provide a little input since Falcon is so common, i just hope Falcon boards have exp against MK cause i think the main problem MK boards will have is how inexperienced most if not all character boards are against MK.

I've said this before but Rosalina and Luma is our strongest top tier MU next to maybe Ness, even with customs HSD alone murders Luma. Star bit shooter gets beaten by HSD and even if she blocks it, MK will rebound off Luma with that hard to punish flip while Luma is plummeting to its doom....let that sink in.

Falcon,Rosalina,ZSS <--- any of these three since their members won't outright ignore MU discussion invitations, unlike the Diddy boards.

R.O.B and Oli are interesting as well.

 

[G-Guy]

Hello, guys!

Wario main here (Megaman secondary)! I am on the lookout for a good 3rd character and I finally settled with MK.
I dabbled a bit with Sheik and Falco, because I love chasing people off the ledge and MK seems to be the one I can control the best!

Now that he's no longer deemed the brokenly OP character, I feel really satisfied when I play with him. Unfortunately tho he gets way too much sass for his fall from grace...

Anyway, hope to have some fun with you guys, and BTW:

Gray Meta Knight looks so awesome <3

 

[V23]

Hello, guys!

Wario main here (Megaman secondary)! I am on the lookout for a good 3rd character and I finally settled with MK.
I dabbled a bit with Sheik and Falco, because I love chasing people off the ledge and MK seems to be the one I can control the best!

Now that he's no longer deemed the brokenly OP character, I feel really satisfied when I play with him. Unfortunately tho he gets way too much sass for his fall from grace...

Anyway, hope to have some fun with you guys, and BTW:

Gray Meta Knight looks so awesome <3

Make sure you are locked hard on meta since he has a very high skill floor and ceiling, the learning curve is absurd with him, but 100% worth it! might as well main him

 

[G-Guy]

Make sure you are locked hard on meta since he has a very high skill floor and ceiling, the learning curve is absurd with him, but 100% worth it! might as well main him

hey, thanks a bunch for the advice!
Yeah, I read that several times on the boards, already, but I like my chars to be alittle more technical and flexible.

It's also cool to see that Katakiri, who seems to have an absurdly good knowledge of meta knight, also mains Wario. gives me confidence in my character choice :3

 

[Deleted member]

What are good stage picks for Meta Knight? I already know Battle Field is his playground and you can also get some early kills off the top on Halberd so that's good too, but what else? Delfino Plaza?

 

[warionumbah2]

Town and City is another good stage, platforms + low ceiling.

Delfino is ok, some segments have low ceilings especially when the stage rises up.

Smashville is an excellent stage, itol gave a good reason as to why its so good. For real MK can camp the **** out of some characters.

 

[Katakiri]

Smashville vs Battlefield is usually a matter of what character you're fighting. Against characters you can juggle well, BF is your stage. If it's a MU like Sonic or a character with a weak air game, Smashville lets you control the fight by using the platform. T&C is a nice blend between the two if the one you need is striked.

Skyloft is better than Delfino IMO. There's a lot of opportunities for MK to get underneath the opponent and wreak havoc. Delfino isn't bad but always go Skyloft over Delfino if you have the option. Castle Siege isn't bad either just watch what characters you take there since that 2nd transformation can be tricky; it also lets MK run away for days if you need to wait out the transformation.
Kongo 64's my jam tho. Ban it or I'll always take you there.

 

[Oblivion129]

Eventhubs lol but any opinions about this? http://www.eventhubs.com/news/2015/...-moves-super-smash-bros-wii-u-be-allowed-evo/

 

[Lavani]

loleventhubs

If you're gonna ban that you might as well ban Ganondorf's sideB, you aren't making it back to the stage afterward, unlike with Marth/Lucina's similar fthrow>Crescent Slash combo. Blade Coaster is a blatantly worse recovery as well as a combo/kill move in pretty much every other situation too.

 

[Zonez]

Besides that Blade Coaster is trash so... yeah. I can see how people who don't actually play Meta Knight can see this as OP, as it's an incredibly early kill. But if you look at it for more than 2 seconds you can see that it's exactly the same as Ganondorf's Side-B.

It isn't worth it when it's worse literally everywhere else. It's sad that MK has terrible customs, but at least his normal specials are all amazing.

 

[NoviceSmasher]

yea meta knights range is rubbish,,its really frustrating,,,we have a game where characters could be buffed and nerfed so every character is viable and able to win nationals ,,but no just because nintendo wants to keep the game casual as possible,,,nintendo are so stupid sometimes,every other fighting games get balance patches,but not smash.like the casuals are going to buy the game anyway so why not make the patches the competitive community wants...UUGGGGHHGHHG

 

[Trunks159]

I think Metsknight is pretty good tbh. Howevee, Nintendo does piss me off sometimes with them trying to appeal to casuals. Casuals dont usually buy somethinh that isn't the big thing for $300 plus all the accessories (gc controller adapter, wii lan adapter, external hard drive, pro controller, wii motion plus, etc). This is really just me venting on the fact that Splatoon wont have voice chat...or maybe Xenoblade.

If you're going to complain, be a Donkey Kong main, or a Marth, or Wii fit, or Palutena main. Metaknight is pretty good.

 

[Sol0ke]

I recently got back into Meta Knight and boy am I glad I did

 

[DiggersBoy]

...The mask is back on.

...I'm sorry, all.

 

[G-Guy]

So, I felt a bit confident with my Meta Knight, enough to take him on For Glory...

Of course my first match was the dreaded Sonic MU and I really feel your pain, guys. His spindash is just stupid and landing with MK against sonic is a hard time. You cannot land with any aerials and fastfall isn't optimal, either...he just runs in and grabs you...

ugh, so frustrating...

 

[ぱみゅ]

For Glory, there is your problem (partially).
Lack of platforms to lure your opponent to and a difficult time timing your short moves (in both range and duration), tough stuff.

 

[Watchful_Eye]

I just played against a brilliant metaknight today on 3DS. His name was "Marcus" and he was from finland, I think. He started right off with a 2-stock against my shulk and the only "win" I had against his MK was in sudden death when I played as a campy mario (so it was not really a win). He also played with some secondaries, but those were at least beatable. Sadly I could not save the replays, since I saved too much already.

I am not a pro, but not so many people can rush me down like this guy, so I somehow guess he reads this forums and I just want to tell him that his MK his awesome and I want to play him again some day :>

 

[LifeMakesMeLOL]

Always a treat to see new faces around here. We definitely need a larger player-base to get the ball rolling for MK so the more the merrier!


That actually reminds me that I created a little cheat sheet for MK's combos a while back but never posted it. Granted, most are not true combos due to DI but they works for most of the cast if you add or subtract percent based on character weight (Sheik was the test dummy here):

0% Combos:
D-Throw > SH N-Air 17%
D-Throw > Dash Attack > Up-Smash 17-22% (Character specific)
D-Throw > Mach Tornado (Character specific)
Dash Attack > Up-Smash 15%
Dash Attack > SH Nado? 26% (Character specific)

0% to 90+% (AKA Bread & Butter AKA MK's Diddy Kong D-Throw>Up-Air)
F-Throw > Aerial Shuttle Loop 21% (KOs at later %s)
*F-Throw comes out on frame 4 after a grab so, unlike D-Throw, DIing the throw is very unlikely!*
**F-Throw while it has less knockback (good for combos) and more damage, it has less hitstun than D-Throw. So make those inputs quick**

35~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 36%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 34%
F-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 44+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Wait > Air Dodge > Mach Tornado 42+%
Down-Throw > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > FH Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Jump Up-Air > Aerial Shuttle Loop 32%

40~%
F-Throw > SH Mach Tornado 28~%

50~%
SH D-Air > Mach Tornado 26~%

84~% (KO Percent)
Dash Attack > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

90~% (KO Percent)
F-Throw > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)
Up-Tilt > Incorrect/No DI > FH Shuttle Loop (KO Combo)

101% to 130% (KO Percent)
D-Tilt > Missed Tech > Dimensional Cape Slash (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Grounded Up-B (KO Combo)
D-Tilt > Tech-in-place > Mach Tornado

Single Move KO% (Off-top, no Rage required):
Grounded Shuttle Loop KO Percent: 98%
Forward Dimensional Cape Slash KO Percent: 107%
Up-Smash: 108%
Up-Throw KO Percent: 156%

Red = A likely opponent input
Obviously anything with red isn't a real combo but I listed them because, unless the opponent is experienced with MK, they're very likely to make the input or lack-thereof required to make the combo happen.

I'll go more in-depth on all of those combos in a guide I'm writing soon.

Thanks a lot for this! Very helpful, I'm learning Meta Knight because my friend insists he's terrible when I know for a fact he's not. Been enjoying my time with him too so maybe he'll end up among my billion secondaries lol.

One question though, in all those 35% combos, how should I be positioning myself so the 2nd upair (the one right after the FH uair) connects? It seems like no matter what I do that 75% of the time it just whiffs even though it looks like it should be hitting. Been messing with my timing and positioning for it in training and I just can't seem to land it consistently, so any suggestions?

 

[Trunks159]

Whenu jump for the second or third up air, , right after ur previous up air, fast fall, than jump again very quickly. And up air. Takes some practice and against lighter characters it's a little more difficult.

 

[warionumbah2]

Played mega man on ladder ranked.

He took me to bf and I won then he went back again and he took the game. The first 2 games I was making stupid mistakes and not playing defensive enough. Aka campy

So the last game I made a smart stage pick, he crossed out skyloft, town and city and helberd typical stage crosses against MK but I picked castle seige.

This stage shuts down mega so hard, first segment has an awkward slop so his pellets and metal blades won't hit and platforms for MK to take advantage of. 2nd segment is the beautiful bit, the statues block his pellets and crash bombs meaning he has no way of stopping us from approaching and again platforms.

The 3rd one is kind of neutral but it has a slope which can make metal blades stick on it lol.

I did really well holding my 2nd stock while he was on his last, got him to 139% since I stole his metal blade and did falling nado. He got me with u-smash with 30seconds left on the clock! 2nd segment came by and I ran away since there's no way he's going to equalize the percentage, he left himself open and I got him with a shuttle loop.

What I learned from those games is that I need to play more patiently and not give a rats ass about the timer. It was funny seeing mega run after me since MK is so darn fast lol.

Got a sweet combo on Luigi, killed him before he hit 50%. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmLBb8mrDZQ

 

[DiggersBoy]

Holy **** what have I been missing

MK is so fun Christ why did I drop him before wtf

Although can anyone help me with my DownThrow followups

My DownThrow followups used to be godly and my DashAttack followups used to suck dip**** but now it's the other way around

Oh and gj on getting mod Katakiri

 

[DiggersBoy]

Tbh though my favorite stage has to be FD with MK

The platforms come off as more of a hiderance for me because it's hard to position yourself around them and the enemy can use these platforms to jump up and catch you

The use of platforms to get you higher is kind of unnecessary because MK already has his 5 jumps making him go higher than most of the cast

Plus falling aerials on enemies kinda sucks because the small ass hitboxes makes it so easily challenged and you end up getting rekt anyways so its better to be underneath them (unless you're playing against Ganon lmao)

 

[Deleted member]

Do we have a list of confirmed combos for Meta Knight? Couldn't find it while searching last night, but I could've sworn we had a list somewhere.

 

[DiggersBoy]

Do we have a list of confirmed combos for Meta Knight? Couldn't find it while searching last night, but I could've sworn we had a list somewhere.

Didn't Katakiri make a cheat sheet for that

 

[DiggersBoy]

I also found myself doing Nair>DownTilt a lot. Nairing towards them is a very aggressive attack, and if they dodge it by a slight distance, Nair has so little lag that you can DTilt and trip them, allowing a followup with Dash Attack.

Over here in NorCal some people have picked up MK as fun characters (Due to Ito stomping with him one tournament), and I've talked to them about some of their strategies with MK before. SideSmash is a very aggressive option, not just for frame traps. There's so little ending lag from the SideSmash that if you manage not to get hit in the startup, it's hard to get punished for it. I prefer to use SideSmash as a very reliable Ledge FrameTrap along with UpB, often doing it OOS, right next to the ledge to stop GetUpAttacks.

 

[busken]

Against hyper aggressive players, you want to champion side smash. It's little end lag and high knock back allows it to function as a good stop sign.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Tbh though my favorite stage has to be FD with MK

The platforms come off as more of a hiderance for me because it's hard to position yourself around them and the enemy can use these platforms to jump up and catch you

The use of platforms to get you higher is kind of unnecessary because MK already has his 5 jumps making him go higher than most of the cast

I think platforms benefit MK immensely, and FD is probably one of his worst stages against most of the cast. Having a MK sharking you from below is a very scary position to be in, and platforms help you so much with that. MK also has more opportunities for early shuttle loop and tornado kills if you guys brawl on a high platform. You can also vary your landing from empty down Bs, whiffed Up Bs or drills, etc., this is a huge deal and enemies can sometimes only punish you with something pathetic like their dash attack if they can't get a read on your landing. Also, sometimes when they're standing on a platform without their shield up, they're just begging for you to perform a perfectly positioned grounded Up B (aka stronger % damage and possibly knockback) on them.

Just played my first two Anther's Ladder ranked games today, repp'ing the bat. Won all my games, though my second match came down to the wire both times against a rank 1234 Sonic. So I'm probably going to be around 1234 myself... No idea how good or bad that is, I would guess somewhere around average. Anther's Ladder made me realize my love for platforms because I've played FG and omega stages against my brother exclusively.

I always ban FD (flat, no platforms, hard to deal with projectiles) and Lylat Cruise (I HATE THE EDGES). On the counterpick stages, I don't know what's best to ban. I'm not exactly familiar with Delfino, Lyloft, and Duck Hunt's stage. I guess I'd keep Duck Hunt against non-projectile and non-Sonic characters because it has small blast zones if I am correct? I've literally never played on Halberd, but I love the music on it (100% Legendary Air Machine, 0% everything else) and have heard countless times that it is MK's best stage due to the extremely small blast zones (hoo haa with up-b).

 

[ItoI6]

lost 2-3 in gf against tearbears falcon today and lost game 5 pretty convincingly, i just have no idea of what to do in neutral man. both characters have the same approach basically but falcon actually has a good jab, can space bair and has much more room for error on his stock. all i have is the ability to edge guard in certain situations and strong juggling if you make good reads yet at the same time my ****ty jumps dont move me out of range of mindless up airs...

also i did manage to beat phoenixs sonic in lf and it went to game 6 because on game 5 it was a timeout 1stock 85% apiece. jesus christ this matchup is nearly impossible and i still have no idea how i won. sonic does like 30% in a spindash combo at low%s and he just fakes side b into his shield and theres literally nothing you can do that doesnt have massive commitment except dash shield up to him and try and punish his landing after he spindashes past you. literally every game i won i just massively outplayed him or camped as hard as i could on the platforms after i got a small lead.

ill go all diddy at the next weekly out of curiousity to see if its still that much better than my mk and it probably is tbh

i just dont know where to go with mk outside of optimizing the hell out of punishes and not letting them land or get back on stage because his neutral is dog**** compared to any truly viable character

 

[AmishTechnology]

Sonic's auto 30% combo at low percentage is pretty disgusting (not that we can't do the same). Just feels like you have to be impeccable at punishing whenever he does unsafe spin-2-wins and give him hell when he tries to land whenever you launch him (which is incredibly tough because of his Superman priority and literally sanic speed, dash attack and dash grab - our bread and butter launchers - aren't going to be so easy to land on this guy...). I'll admit, I'm still quite ignorant on how to identify the different sanic spins and which ones are punishable and whatnot, I do notice one of them is often quite punishable by b-air or u-air if shielded because he just pops up in the air and behind you often. Other ones just go through your shield and the neutral kind of just resets...

Yeah, good Falcons also seem absurdly difficult too. You're both dash grab + dash attack characters, but Falcon is faster, has longer range, and has OTHER OPTIONS! His jab is very good at punishing MK's approaches because they're fast, he can literally hold A to intercept your grab attempts because he jabs super fast, and they can also do a lot of damage. He's also one of the toughest characters to kill off the top, so it's tough to kill him with our most standard method of killing: shuttle loop. Our best bet probably is to little-mac his recovery somehow, so you'd have to throw him off stage or send him flying sideways with a d-smash (or f-smash if you're also counting hard reads) and then do a hard read off-stage to gimp him lol. He truly is just completely superior to us if it weren't for the off-stage. Maybe, if you somehow get a lead, you really just have to camp and go for lil-macs? Don't know. Send him away, force him to air dodge your incoming fair/nair/bair, he'll drop down fast, you side B to the stage to either 1.) drill spike him or 2.) ledge trump him? Blegh, don't know. He's a tough match up for sure.

 

[warionumbah2]

I tend to purposely dash attack into his jab 1 if he's using it to halt my approaches, force a clank, he throws out another jab and I shield it only to punish him with shuttle loop oos.

MU seems even and because falcon has the better approach common sense tells me to wait for him to come at me instead, he has the edge on stage sure but off stage is our domain its no different to other mu's where the ground game is close to even but off stage we murk them while they can't do much to us because of drill and cape. Falcon and Marth come to mind in this aspect not Lucina since she's plain worse.

Not everyone has the ability to solo main MK, go diddy if that earns you wins bruh its money you're fighting for but if you find MK fun (doubt it after your post) then have a pocket diddy when things get bumpy.

 

[ItoI6]

im not really a believer in secondaries but i think i kind of get the purpose of them now. before i believed you would just go to your secondaries on bad matchups, but more than that i think the real point of them is to change the flow of the game when you arent feeling your main, and i think mk can do that for me. i havent given up just yet on maining him though and i still think hes JUST viable enough to win with at the highest level its just hard. and i do have the most fun in this game playing mk when i get like 0-death strings and 30+% combos but then once you get to higher in bracket all your approaches get stuffed and people randomly fall out of your shuttle loop for no reason among other ridiculously unfair stuff. like yesterday i fought a greninja player who i hit with 1st hit of upb, then he hitstun canceled it with his side b and punished me on hit for landing it before 2nd hit connected. like wtf??? how is that even a thing??? i think the only direction to go from here is really just getting absolute max guaranteed damage in all situations + fishing for tornado a lot because its just really good. like i used to do dthrow to upsmash always at low%s but now i work a bit more and react to DI and do tornado if they DI up, and dash attack + followup if they don't. as long as you react fast enough its just guaranteed more damage against most characters.

 

[warionumbah2]

I kid you not tornado is what keeps MK in the game in the damage war, dash attack true combo's into nado at low percents against:(?)

doesn't work on: (?)(?)

I didn't think it would work on the angels so im actually really optimistic about this move, 30% from 2 moves. Played a great Falcon on SV and DKJ, gimps + maximum nado + landing ontop of him with nado are too strong in this MU. Only problem is that it can hurt my thumbs after 11 games no breaks inbetween(hella good for when i enter tournaments especially with breaks).

I secondary Kirby because he's great against high tiers like MK and also easy on the hands.

Edit: thanks Amish i'll hit the lab when i get the time, need to figure this rhythm out.

 

[Trunks159]

I think I need more tornado in my life.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Tornado mashing isn't too bad. You don't have to DO IT AS FAST AS HUMANELY POSSIBLE, there's a certain forgiving rhythm to it due to the hitfreeze. Try it out in training mode to see what I mean, try to do it as "slow" as possible while still getting maximum twirls so you save yourself or delay your carpal tunnel as long as possible.

Melee Luigi's Down B on the other hand is atrocious.

 

[Katakiri]

Sounds like we might have this week's MU discussion decided already.

 

[busken]

What do you guys think about the Pit MU? On paper, I do not see the MU very good for us.

His arrows force us to approach. His zoning tools are far superior then ours. He can perfect pivot into jab and forward tilt which is not punishable on shield. He is not easy to gimp wielding 4 jumps, a flexible up-b, and a super armor horizontal recovery option.