Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Trunks159]

Hmm. Not sure. Metaknight is sort of like a snake, or like an assasin. He attacks in bursts. Hell float in the air, for a while, use a few capes, and then dash attack or dash grab. Metaknight imo can handle pit because pit imo doesn't really have any quick defensive options. He gets juggled easily, and gimping him is difficult, but simply naring when he uses up b works. I dont really think he can defend against us, nor can he catch us.

 

[warionumbah2]

Lets get something straight, Pit doesn't completely merk anyone but he too doesn't get manhandled like MK struggles with Sonic.

Its even or close to it, played a Pit player using pivot normals and it isn't that bad. Looking at frame data doesn't determine the match.

Pit lacks kill set ups like MK so its not like he can seal the kill the moment he hits you with a move, his kills require reads just don't approach near the ledge because his forward throw kills. Pit has an extra kill move(reason why i think MK beats Dark Pit 55:45) which is upperdash arm.

A good move overall like Falcons raptor boost, they tend to run past you and fling it out when you drop your shield. Pit is one of the few characters that can force Mk to approach and pressure us off stage with arrows, but Pit like others lack tools to stop uair strings, dash attack into tornado works at low percents giving you the percent lead, we have the better ground speed, kill setups.

If Pit recovers with upperdash arm just stand near the damn ledge and let the thing eat your shield, he'll be hopeless for a while giving us a chance to punish. But of course make sure you have a full shield. If he recovers low we have lingering hitboxes and a fast dair like how the **** do you struggle at timing nair/bair????

 

[AmishTechnology]

I feel like he's a bit similar to Sheik. He'll force approaches with a good projectile and has range to keep us at bay when we close in... but I feel like he just struggles to kill us until he gets either rage 130% f-throw near ledge lol. Feel like his non-fthrow kill moves are incredibly punishable imo.

 

[Locuan]

I noticed you guys are using multiple threads for your match-up discussion so I think if I post here it would be a better fit. We are starting discussion on the Meta Knight match-up today at the Marth Match-Up Thread. It would be awesome if you could help us out.

 

[DiggersBoy]

With EVO allowing customs now, what customs have you been using?

Persobally, I like either a 1211 or a 2211. Dat High-speed drill ain't nothing to scoff at, it's a quick horizontal recovery option with very little lag. Shuttle Loop and Dimensional Cape are still godly, as the other ones suck quite a bit. However, I've been really loving my Entangling Tornado. While the startup and ending time is long, it's one of ny favorite moves to catch people with, and often kills at around 100 percent from the ground. Although, some people like the normal tornado better, so I feel as though its a preference choice. Heck, even I prefer to go back to 1211 every now and then.

What are your custom choices?

 

[AmishTechnology]

If Entangling Tornado is easy to land, it should be worth looking into. Tornado is sometimes hard to land on competent players. Anything that opens an easy KO option for MK is worth looking into.

Maybe Coaster could be worth looking into against characters we can't easily KO off the top but don't necessarily need recovery against (e.g. Bowser, Captain Falcon). I haven't unlocked them so I can't test them myself, but if Coaster can follow off of high percents better than Shuttle Loop, that's a very valuable and important thing as a kill move. That and, even if they don't die, they're pushed off stage rather than above us, and characters like Bowser and Falcon are fun to edge guard. We could keep default drill and dcape to compensate for recovery. But I might be totally wrong and coaster may be total dog ****.

I can't justify Lazy Loop's existence in any theorycrafting way.

 

[LostinpinK]

Finally found my main thanks to this bat! I picked him up a few days ago and I'm loving his new gameplay.

A few questions : what stages should we play on? I'm guessing that we should aim for BF, Lylat and Town & City in that order during stage strike, and Delfino / Halberd for CP? If I'm right, are there characters that you never want to bring there?
And what do you think of the Ness and Pika MU? These two are my black beasts and have a lot of reprensentation in my area. I have very little experience for now, but I was wondering if you thought that these MU were manageable.

 

[warionumbah2]

It depends on who you're fighting but good stages in no order are

Battlefield
Helbird
Town and city
Smashville
Delfino
Skyloft
Donkey kong jungle 64
Castle seige

MK does really well against ness and pikachu too for that matter,both in our favor(more even for pikachu). They aren't scary high tiers that's for sure. Don't take diddy to low ceiling stages.

 

[DiggersBoy]

I've lost all faith in Halberd after the stage gimped me

I would've shown replay but I was so salty I refused to

I tried to ride the stage to grab ledge but the part where it starts to go in like an hourglass on the ship part blocked me

 

[ぱみゅ]

Pay more attention to the background. It's easy yo tell miles away that you're about to land.

 

[AmishTechnology]

I've lost all faith in Halberd after the stage gimped me

I would've shown replay but I was so salty I refused to

I tried to ride the stage to grab ledge but the part where it starts to go in like an hourglass on the ship part blocked me

ahaha I learned today about Halberd's weird ledges during a ladder friendly (my first time playing non-Omega Halberd lol). Still managed to clinch the win against a Samus player who in all honesty is probably a better player than me (using an inferior characer, bwahaha). I lost in my first match on Delfino and I am considering banning that over Duck Hunt... water does not suit Meta Knight. The walk offs and water removes a powerful element of his play: the off-stage.

Battlefield is easily my most comfortable match. I feel like I can beat players a small bit better than myself in this map more than any other. Platforms are great and screw over zoners like ROB, Samus, Link, etc.

I have always banned Lylat because I despise the ledges. Maybe I should learn them and use it against foes with bair spikes and whatnot.

 

[Jeronado]

Any tips for getting the kill with Meta Knight? I'm have a problem with characters living up to absurd percents and I just can't seem to land a kill move.

 

[Trunks159]

Well grounded up b works, fsmash, and up smash also (also, cape kills, and mid air tornado). MK may have problems, but killing isn't one of them.

 

[Katakiri]

With EVO allowing customs now, what customs have you been using?

Persobally, I like either a 1211 or a 2211. Dat High-speed drill ain't nothing to scoff at, it's a quick horizontal recovery option with very little lag. Shuttle Loop and Dimensional Cape are still godly, as the other ones suck quite a bit. However, I've been really loving my Entangling Tornado. While the startup and ending time is long, it's one of ny favorite moves to catch people with, and often kills at around 100 percent from the ground. Although, some people like the normal tornado better, so I feel as though its a preference choice. Heck, even I prefer to go back to 1211 every now and then.

What are your custom choices?

No customs whatsoever. They're all worse than his defaults. HSD is great on paper but in practice it just gets you killed if you Nado at the wrong time. It's too little reward for far too much risk. I like Drill Rush for stage spikes anyway.

I did however pick up Kirby as a customs main should MK not have the advantage (custom DK, Pikachu, and Kirby himself, for instance, beat us imo.) Kirby becomes an entirely different monster with customs on. His custom Up-B gets him KOs and works very much like our Shuttle Loop combined with Dolphin Slash, great both OoS and as a combo finisher or just a move to catch someone unexpectedly for a KO. It's an insanely great option for Kirby to have.

 

[warionumbah2]

So you too have seen the light of Custom Kirby. One thing that irks me is the power behind this move, i use it to finish off combo's like MK and to hit anyone on a platform or OOS.

His free fall animation is extremely good imo, i get so much control after using the move. Jump inhale and Shuttle Loop 2.0 is the to go to customs, his meteor stone would be sick if it wasn't so hard to get out of it sooner so you may as well use default stone for edgeguards and his hammer is down to your preferences.

I already used default Kirby as a secondary to earn me 2nd place in my recent tournament, but only against ZSS.

 

[Katakiri]

I've had a pocket Kirby for months since he was my secondary in Brawl too. Even default Kirby is a really solid character in this game. He easily has the best frame data in the entire Smash Bros series bar maybe 64 characters since I don't know much about it. But that Up-B custom just takes him from being a good character to a great character. Jumping Inhale is great too if only for getting copy powers easier which in a lot of MUs the copy power is what takes a 40:60 MU into a 60:40 MU in Kirby's favor.
Such a fun character.

Anyway I think at some point I'm gonna post about our Sonic MU again. I've been using my local area's bi-weeklies to experiment against certain characters and trying out new strategies as well. Sonic's definitely no worse than 40:60 but could be 45:55, in fact the MU can be stage dependent. If we camp and abuse the Smashville platform, Sonic struggles to get anything going and the MU becomes in our favor for that stage.

I'm starting to abuse platforms on more stages as well like Duck Hunt and T&C. It's interesting watching characters struggle to do anything to MK on a difficult to reach platform or punishing them for trying. I might have to stop being that guy that strikes and bans Smashville now.

I also learned how to deal with Fox using itol's advice. I also found that our D-Air beats Fox Fire consistently (both when it's charging and when he's flying at us) and we can chase him after the first D-Air to ensure the gimp. Learn the timing and Fox should always be dead if he recovers low.

 

[V23]

Blah. just blah! i sometimes lose to a freaking in my community whom i know i outskill... it bothers (yet not discouraging) me that i need to be much better player than him to win vs him

its like every win i get is where i play near perfection with combos gimping and stuff, and every win he gets is due to 1hko me at 70ish% near edge cuz "im and **** you thats why"


Any how! got any tips for the link MU? i want to crush this freaking scrub so bad he will leave the community in shame.

 

[ItoI6]

lol i went all diddy at todays tourney and won vs terry in gf rip mk. it wasnt THAT much better than mk though which was kind of surprising to me. i still feel way more confident with mk vs olimar so thats something. might break him out in certain matchups or vs certain players.

nothing special to do vs link really, i think link is bad and mk is an above average character, so mk just wins. bait dair from him by fading away during an uair chain i guess. you can also just dash shield into most of his projectiles.

 

[warionumbah2]

Congrats man, yeah you should use MK against certain MU's.

Links weakness is his mid range tools, outside of hookshot range what can he do without getting punished on reaction? MK is literally the embodiment of his weakness on stage since we do tend to sit/camp outside their range, we got 6 jumps to avoid projectiles other than angled boomerang, better mid range tools such as DA(dash attack) and DG(dash grab).

We have the edge onstage because we excel at something he struggles with and off stage is in our favor too since his recovery is so linear.

Like Itol said MK is just better. Would not advice using SL at low percents, Link falls like a rock and he can punish us hard.

 

[V23]

Thx guys, and yeah avoiding SL at low % was something i learned the hard way ;(

 

[AmishTechnology]

Since I can't perfect shield easily online, I just opt for dash attack when I see Link doing the boomerang animation (very telegraphed) and normal shield/jump for other stuff. When I discovered that you can cancel boomerang with dash attack, the MU just became 10x easier for me and a Link who was previously sometimes 2-stocking me was now the one getting consistently 2-stocked by my MK. So if you're ever not confident in power shielding the boomerang, there's that option.

---

Let's see, what matchups does MK have where he's a notably better option than other top tiers like Diddy (or at least a better option than most of the cast)? I'm thinking of the following:

- Olimar
- Rosalina and Luma (fitting, MK is "good" against both of Dabuz's characters)
- Sheik??? (I know warionumbah and Katakiri both believe it to be in MK's favor, which probably most of the cast can't say - haven't heard Itoi's word on it; MU seems fair enough in my point of view and I was still using Rosalina since the last time I've played a Sheik who knew what he was doing, so it's hard for me to judge)

MK certainly has very fun punching bags for match ups against Bowser and such, but he's not necessarily much better at it than the other popular options lol.

 

[warionumbah2]

He apparently does really well against pikachu. Pika mains always go on about how MK is their worst MU due to his small size and good ground game.

And he wrecks little mac like no other, but mac isn't a top tier threat nor is he used as a main in tournaments.

Edit: When the mu comes I won't be adding any input, pikachus are rare to come across online or offline. Its indeed good news that MK can out perform the 2 best characters.

Edit harder: I know for a fact itol thinks MK loses to sheik 80:20 because of neutral game and no sh aerials to hold MK hands. If memory serves me right.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Very interesting. I remember just a couple months ago, some of us on the MK boards would list Pikachu as among our biggest threats alongside Sonic, hah.

Pikachu is still a good character so even if the matchup is indeed technically in our favor (which most characters can't say for Pikachu), it's still not easy. But if MK outperforms the likes of Sheik and Diddy in that MU, that is quite good news for us.

 

[ItoI6]

you guys are only doing matchup threads for good characters atm lol if you did one for ganon or mac i would put it as like 85/15 in mks favor. and did i say it was 80/20 sheiks favor? maybe like 70/30 or so.

and when i say 30/70 what i mean is that if the absolute best sheik player and a supposed master of mk thats better than anyone now with the character were to come along and play a 100 games, itd be reasonable to assume sheik would win about 70% of them. thats not a knock against mk, in fact its a testament to his viability that i think he can win so many games against a top tier character. some characters in this game are trash and have 0-100 matchups vs top tiers, they will literally never win against top tiers played by top tier players. mk is not one of these characters, and i think mk can beat any character with any player which is a very optimistic view.

some people dont understand matchup numbers and wont put any matchup past 70/30 or 30/70 no matter how bad or how good any matchup is like lol...like what is the point of using numbers if you actually mean them to mean something else? if i were to put my numbers into different terms it would be a decent advantage to falcon in the falcon vs mk matchup. is that so unreasonable? its very doable and you can win just by being a bit better of a player. im not trying to make all mks matchups look bad because i really dont think that.

and i think pika is like 50/50 or very slightly in pikas favor idk where this theory craft is coming from that mk beats him by a lot lol

mk vs oli is like 75-25 or so mks favor

mk vs rosa i cant say but i wouldnt say its that much better than even if its an advantage, probably a slight disadvantage.

 

[AmishTechnology]

Hm, that's a good way to look at it actually (the whole 70/30 not being so bad in the end lol).

70/30 Sheik wouldn't be surprising lol, I've heard our state has some nasty Sheiks and apparently she has a guaranteed ftilt->bouncing fish at basically every %, so much for difficulty killing us :\.

Entered an online tourney for the first time and did some heavy laddering, got whalloped quite a lot and it's really humbling. Feels like I really have to put double the effort in evenly matched games and 300% more against Diddy + Sonics. It's really discouraging to the soul haha, but I am inexperienced so I shouldn't really cry too much about losing. Played against S2H too, that was a lot of fun!

First time using customs ever, decided to go with 1211 for most of the tournament. You guys are crazy to not want the speed drill versus most of the cast! It's a very powerful way to punish brainless spam (the smart players will stop throwing things haphazardly, making approaching that much easier for you), bad or slow rolls, gah... It pierces through sanic spins, nearly all projectiles, and it gotta go fasts too. That being said... I did SD with it twice lol but not because I was spamming Tornado... I literally just misplaced the drill since it was my first time using it.

I'm going to experiment with Tornado 2 (Entangling Tornado) later because, from what I've read, it pulls in aerial opponents, which has major implications for anti-air dodge play! I found it hard to land normal Tornado on the really good players at any rate, so maybe I'll have to find another way to punish whiffed stuff outside of mashing the B button. I'm assuming you don't need to mash B for the alt tornados, so accidental high speed drill SDs probably won't be a thing either if you go 2211.

On the side, I think I'm gonna try to improve my Ike and DHD. I dabbled a lot with G&W and he has some of my favorite moves in the game (U-Smash, U-Air, even the N-Air), but he is way too light for my tastes without Jigg's air movement to compensate for it. Hopefully Ike's recovery isn't dog doodoo-tier with the alt Up-B. DHD intrigues me because of his complex playstyle while not lacking in the aerials or normals department (I absolutely hate the A moves of characters like Samus and Link).

EDIT: High Speed Drill is also a braindead easy response to monkey flip lol. Maybe Coaster could be an easy KO response too? But blagh, can't have both and you probably want shuttle loop for the monkey.

 

[ItoI6]

yeah i think high speed drill is probably a bit better than drill rush, i thought shield breaker drill was good but its actually **** because the opponent can roll away or punish you inbetween hits on their shield so what is the point even lol. regular tornado is a lot better than you think and its been a long time since i looked at other customs but i remember the other tornados being horrible but maybe theyre not as bad as i remember.

if anyone wants to play me on wifi im down just pm me a time. i have to use my phone as a wireless hotspot and it works kinda ok but its still waay better than my dorms wifi lol

and i dont wanna be that guy but you should probably pick a top tier and only like 1-2 other characters you pull out sometimes to change the tempo of a set. you learn a lot just by learning to abuse broken stuff top tiers have

 

[Katakiri]

My problem with numbered MU ratios is that they are NEVER representative for the actual MU and are at best a TL:DR breakdown of how the character does against the cast that might sway someone into picking up the character. This game is so read-heavy that even MU write-ups aren't reliable for learning a MU entirely. The normal game isn't as all-deciding as momentum is, yet the normal game is the easiest thing to over-examine and explain about a MU to slap a number on it.

For instance Falcon vs MK is a matter of who gets momentum first and who keeps it best; their normal game is almost move-for-move the same so obviously the neutral is won by reads (and that applies to most MUs tbh.) Does Falcon have the tools to keep pressure on MK with momentum? Absolutely. Does MK have the tools to do the same to Falcon? Without a doubt. How do they both get out of pressure? With a read. But even then, how do we account for reads? If it came down to whoever gets the KO first gets the precious larger number in the MU, MK would win on paper by looking at frames and his off-stage game but in reality, where reads matter, that MU is way more even!

I make a policy of not underestimating anyone in tourney no matter who they main since I don't lose to characters, I lose to players. Unless a character is at a really large disadvantage against another character (which I believe MK doesn't have to worry about,) I think MU ratios are worthless. MU threads are great for devising a game plan and learning about characters but the ratios mean nothing, especially in MK's case.


Anyway, I just found out that Shield Piercer is a better anti-juggle Down-B than default Cape. It lets you get to the ground quickly from pretty high up. It's useless offensively and doesn't help us get off the ledge but if you have a MU where you get juggled, it might be worth running.

 

[V23]

General tips against this piece of ******* --->

 

[warionumbah2]

High speed drill is needed to improve MK neutral game imo, it beats projectiles, comes out and travels fast and it always sends your opponent off stage.

Got exp against custom pit, he used his brawl arrows and that janky ass down b but the rest is left untouched. The mu is no different than before, his arrows force approaches as usual however his down b caught me off guard as it managed to take a stock off me.

That's customs In general things catch you off guard and it'll never happen again, I used MKs jumps to stall my recovery and anticipate pit jumping off with that thing. Easy to avoid and when pit recovers low its a free stage spike.

Alot of characters will get new things but the mu remains the same, which is why im not afraid of walking into custom tourneys with MK. High Speed Drill is very useful against these high tiers:

I also don't think is a threat anymore, now that i know out that the back of nair beats out more things than the front i'll have no trouble edgeguarding Ganon. Just gotta play defensive and reset to neutral frequently, not like after Ganon hits you away i mean dash all the way back and start again.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kirby is stupid, I bodied the **** outta Pit. As Kata said some copy abilities make the mu heavily in his favor, Pit can't force Kirby to approach once I take his power. Kirby can go in deep off stage and come back up with a stage spike move up special. You can come up with combos on the go, forward throw into arrow snipe is legit.

That shuttle loop 2.0 that Kirby has is insane, all Kirby characters are great except D3 he sucks in this game.

Tl:dr MK won't struggle against custom chars except for a selected few, so long as you do research about other customs you won't be caught off guard in competitive play.

Edit:
I just don't see Sheik and Falcon as bad MUs ranging from my own experience,to vids and to things yall post about how MK getting bodied by them etc. doesn't lead me to the conclusion that MK loses to them.

But to each their own, what matters at the end of the day is me winning those MUs in tournaments. Which i do of course, i come across Diddy's but compared to the exaggerated stuff i read on this site it isn't that bad. Sonic is only an out right terror on flat stages.

 

[AmishTechnology]

and i dont wanna be that guy but you should probably pick a top tier and only like 1-2 other characters you pull out sometimes to change the tempo of a set. you learn a lot just by learning to abuse broken stuff top tiers have

Intellectually, my brain knows this to be true (and it is probably best for my sanity too), but my heart won't accept it. And Meta Knight absolutely is fun and feels powerful when you're not facing one of his ~5 bad matchups... It's just that those 5 bad matchups just HAPPEN to be the most popular and top tier characters lmao. Diddy, Sonic, Sheik, Captain Falcon, ZSS... The first two are especially common, and the most cooki-cutter Diddies and Sonics will make even the best MKs struggle. MK's approach is bad, but there are many characters whose approach and/or defense against it is even worse, and that's when MK is really fun. I suppose MK's approach isn't too bad relative to MOST of the cast, but it is very linear and subpar compared to the tournament standard characters.

And about Ike... Like, in my head, I know that there's a 99.9% chance he'll bring me even more headaches because he's almost certainly less viable than Meta Knight and, just by the textbook, looks to be one of those characters that has more than a few 15 - 85 MUs. But I love that you can tank hits with him, can actually approach with aerials, and doing damage and KO'ing with him is extremely braindead compared to MK. Customs seem to be becoming the new standard, and I don't know if Ike's customs will elevate him to becoming a relevant character with options. I do know that it'll help with his awful getting-gimped special ability though.

Duck Hunt is certainly fun because you can trap and aggravate enemies in a similar way to Diddy with bananas and, unlike Link and Samus, DHD's normals actually feel like a normal character. DHD boards are extremely pessimistic with his viability lol, which I appreciate because they seem to be grounded in reality. Who knows, maybe the zig zag can and fast gunman is what DHD needs to fight the Diddy and Sonic swarm.

I used to main a very good character once: Rosalina & Luma. She was dreadfully boring though. If customs become standard and Luma Warp changes her into the character I was expecting, meh, maybe I'll cave in and go crawling back to her feet. I've been hearing Dabuz actually plays her quite aggressively on customs, and that's really what I want in a character: the ability to just go in balls out. Ike can do that, albeit slowly and probably terribly. Duck Hunt can do that after setting all sorts of sneaky gunman and can frame traps for an inevitable grab or duck pecking. Meta Knight can do that against everyone but the 10% of the cast that actually matters lol.

 

[V23]

Wanted to share with you guys, this is the list of best 6 wiiu and 8 best 3ds sm4sh in the entire israeli community. finally made it into top 3 using only MK
note that not a single or made it to the top.

Bat power !


edit: spelling

 

[W.A.C.]

http://www.twitch.tv/tloccpu/b/627975294

"The page could not be found, or has been deleted by its owner"

Goddammit...

Edit-

I personally would love to play against really good Meta Knight players via wifi, but my internet is ****ing garbage where I currently live.

yeah i think high speed drill is probably a bit better than drill rush, i thought shield breaker drill was good but its actually **** because the opponent can roll away or punish you inbetween hits on their shield so what is the point even lol.

Oh damn. I've been using that custom move at tournaments and it's helped me a lot. Do you think using it in the longterm would be a poor choice?

 

[AmishTechnology]

Yeah, people will learn to not hold shield and instead roll it eventually lmao, unless it's character-specific and amazingly is guaranteed or some weird shenanigans that we haven't discovered yet on someone.

I think the high-speed drill offers way too much presence to ignore, it actually makes Sonic scared to brainlessly spin and Diddy from haphazardly throwing banana/doing monkey flip - an incredible option against two of our five or so toughest matchups. This isn't even including the applications against projectile-based characters like Link and Duck Hunt! You NEVER use the normal drill on-stage anyways except against Luma, and even that is often trading a Luma kill for a free grab/smash on you from Rosalina (not that it matters until like 130% because soloRosa is incredibly weak without rage). You are rather limited on where you can use speed drill "safely" though because whiffing with it can leave you helpless off stage, but hitting it is basically guaranteed to send your enemies at least somewhat off stage or high up into the air.

I'm thinking HSD will punish a lot of stuff. The drill seems to have high priority, but we should test some stuff:
- Mario/Doc/Luigi fireballs... on reaction if you are close enough?
- Pierces through Peach's turnips?
- Won't pierce Bowser's flames probably. Still, this may be our only way to punish certain whiffs from him when he's far away.
- Yoshi's up-B is a bit cumbersome if you can just drill to his face, haha. Or maybe he just has barely enough time to shield it.
- Rosalina & Luma... very obvious applications, just instant kill Luma when she's grounded lol. Actually, normal drill might be more suitable even though HSD is faster because you don't have to be at the other edge of the map to use normal drill without falling off stage if you whiff. Rosaluma jumping might screw over HSD if you're too close to the edge. But it will be tough to give up its speed. Maybe HSD is needed to combat Rosaluma's new falco lasers too.
- Bowser Jr... NO idea how it interacts with the cannonballs and koopabombs. If it doesn't trade with them or blow you up, this is incredible.
- ZSS, pierce through laser for easy punishes on reaction!
- Sheik, would it beat her bouncing fish? Hm, is that even relevant? Typically, if she's BF'ing us, we're not at a position to be using any of the drills to try and beat it...
- Marth, I feel this could be a decent option to penetrate his wall of f-airs and tilts if you get a soft read on any of them. Small punish for a small read, but anything that takes Marth off the neutral game and into your favor (you edge guarding him, you juggling him) is incredibly beneficial, because Marth will beat you if all you do is dance like gentlemen.
- Link... JUST DRILL THROUGH THEM PROJECTILES!!!
- Samus... Will the drill beat her explosions and charge shot? Regardless, a great way to close distance if she for whatever god-forsaken reason decides to roll and you can't just run up and grab her for some reason.
- Villager: Will the drill not trip on counter root? Will the drill cut through the tree and hit villager? Will the drill beat the wooden rocket thingie?

Bah, you get the idea. Too tired to do this for the entire cast.

 

[warionumbah2]

Here's my take on HSD on certain MUs I've experienced. It helps against somewhat difficult MUs but also makes ones that we already beat even easier imo.

Spoiler

- Beats their arrows and i think their fair loses to HSD since MK is so far away from the actual hitbox.

- Completely wrecks their zone game, they must always be anticipating a HSD. Without customs they never gave MK trouble anyway but this makes it more reassuring.

- Stupidly helpful in neutral, makes it less BS but i still wouldn't use this move often since a good Sonic/Falcon/Sheik will run and shield all the time. At least it makes them more cautious, it beats needles and all of Sheiks aerials(i think) which is nice when they're constantly throwing it out.

- Beats Banana's and Monkey flip. 99% must IMO.

- Drill their projectiles on reaction.

- Beats their lasers custom or not, helps in neutral and their aerials can't beat HSD since as i said before Mk is too far away from the hitbox.

Theorycraft on MUs that i think HSD will be useful in:

MUs i would never use HSD on:

 

[AmishTechnology]

I am a complete moron and have been Meta Knight'ing it wrong the past 800 or so games with him. Today, someone on reddit (is that you itoi?) informed me that it is possible to actually angle the second hit of the Shuttle Loop.

Oh jesus. I've hit so many more SLs today. I've lost so, so many times because of whiffed second-hits on the shuttle loop. Oh god..........

Wonder if Coaster is adjustable in a similar way? Probably won't matter much, Shuttle Loop probably is superior.

1212 and 2212 new meta.

 

[W.A.C.]

I didn't know you could angle shuttle loop either...wish I knew that sooner. lol

 

[V23]

If Entangling Tornado is easy to land, it should be worth looking into. Tornado is sometimes hard to land on competent players. Anything that opens an easy KO option for MK is worth looking into.

Maybe Coaster could be worth looking into against characters we can't easily KO off the top but don't necessarily need recovery against (e.g. Bowser, Captain Falcon). I haven't unlocked them so I can't test them myself, but if Coaster can follow off of high percents better than Shuttle Loop, that's a very valuable and important thing as a kill move. That and, even if they don't die, they're pushed off stage rather than above us, and characters like Bowser and Falcon are fun to edge guard. We could keep default drill and dcape to compensate for recovery. But I might be totally wrong and coaster may be total dog ****.

I can't justify Lazy Loop's existence in any theorycrafting way.

After toying around with coaster im still not sure about it, it does have some interesting potential, but its very scary move to use (on our side!) the SD is real with this one.

i want to unlock Lazy Loop ASAP and try to fool around with it, i think the mindgames could be strong with this one. reamins to be tested

i think coaster would be super viable vs alot of chars IF if it had the DR treatment (you get knocked back if you hit them)

edit: ok few mins in throphy rush got me lazy SL. trying it out

2nd edit: ok one thing's cool, it can stage spike. something regular SL cant. which is .... nice
testing more

FINAL EDIT: well this move... while looking cool, and even interesting, does ...well....suck :\
i mean sure it could kill at like 92% if you hit super high. but nothing vanilla SL can't do.
it doesnt combo into anything or from anything. it does 6-9 dmg (that if you cant freaking hit with hit)
at least Coaster combos... and kills at 47% in BF's edge if you can Dgrab him there (you also die)
Blah.

 

[Deleted member]

Found this and thought it was funny, so thought I'd share it.

 

[V23]

Ok, i think im falling in love with blade coaster. i've been at it for a while, and i think it changes Mk's game. not for better or for worse just changes it. like you need to develope a new mindset. this is freaking awesome. im kinda shocked. after 3 stocking a (very good) fox with coaster stage spikes. im a believer

here is a quick gif i made just to show what i mean (though im sure you all know by now) this is so much fun to use, and easy.

Spoiler

And also made this, to show how much ground you can cover in a heartbeat with this, how easy you can punish from a distance

Spoiler

 

[LostinpinK]

I've played a pretty good Lucario today. I just can't find a way to approach with dash attack / dash grab as usual because of the aurasphere. Got any tips or videos for this matchup?