Social The MKGD: The rumors of my demise have been greatly exaggerated

[Fye]

I have tap jump off and don't have any trouble with Meta Knight tech, but I also hold the controller claw. My index finger is on X for jump while my thumb is on A, B, and C-stick. Left hand is for movement and and shielding.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I can't do that lol. I have frickin huge hands that make its difficult to deviate in layout. Being hella tall sucks sometimes. You get giant hands by default. -_-

 

[Ulevo]

This is why I think learning to play with Y as jump is more optimal. I have no problems with up air strings because I can buffer up air immediately out of a jump since my thumb rests on both. For X jump players, you have to slide your finger from one press to another, and it wastes time.

@ ZTD | TECHnology , I suggest you set your L/R trigger to jump, whichever one you do not use. This makes it relatively easy to Shuttle Loop out of shield, and you can also use it to C-Stick while jumping at the same time.

Anyway, Sheik's combos are done outside of forward throw. Meta Knight has a lot of tight timing windows on certain combos. Ironically, up air and dash attack have a lot of hit stun and allow you to get away with quite a few things. There was even a combo I found where you can short hop up air out of down throw, land, and do Shuttle Launch at around mid %.

By the way, I found something cute. If you want to ledge snap easier with Meta Knight, run off and do a falling up air. I assume the attack positions the grab box in such a way that it makes it very ease to ledge snap.

 

[ItoI6]

i dont really think tap jump helps with up air chains or any sort of movement in particular. i just have it on for upb oos

 

[Katakiri]

Or you guys can get with the times and pick up a comfy af Wii U Pro Controller. A & B have their own jump buttons right above them so you don't need to be a velociraptor to Up-Bs OoS and Up-Air chain easily, the C-Stick is far closer to the A button, you get an extra Z button to set however you want, the triggers don't have springs slowing you down, and it's slightly larger than Gamecube which makes it way comfier to hold.

It's so comfy I can't even be mad when I lose.

 

[Ghidorah14]

Some of us are stuck with the 3DS, sadly.

 

[Ulevo]

Or you guys can get with the times and pick up a comfy af Wii U Pro Controller. A & B have their own jump buttons right above them so you don't need to be a velociraptor to Up-Bs OoS and Up-Air chain easily, the C-Stick is far closer to the A button, you get an extra Z button to set however you want, the triggers don't have springs slowing you down, and it's slightly larger than Gamecube which makes it way comfier to hold.

It's so comfy I can't even be mad when I lose.

I would, except for two issues. The first is that the angle of the handles where your hands rest are further from being parallel with 90 degrees than the GC (the Wii U Gamepad is perfect), and this means your thumb is even more angled than usual when executing simple left and right movements. This translates in to more accidental Drill Rushes when you try to Shuttle Loop, among other things. The second is that the C-Stick has a lipped top, while the GC's C-Stick is just a nub, and this makes it prone to being 'caught' when you go to use the C-Stick. You are almost having to work around the stick to use it.

It is super comfortable and I would much prefer it, but it is unfortunately suboptimal for Smash for me in this case.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I figured out my issue with trying to do Up Air chains through the X Button so I might be alright there. I saw improvement immediately once I became more conscious of my hand placement. I MIGHT end up staying with Tap Jump on anyway if only to facilitate Shuttle Loop OoS. I have been jump canceling with R (for a while now actually) it but it's not very intuitive for me tbh. If I can just get past the accidental random jumps here and there I'd be all set with Tap Jump.

 

[warionumbah2]

Well that new ZeRo video was disappointing, not surprised.

Also @ Ulevo you'll love who he mentioned as a 'great' player that are pushing the Meta(knight) game.

Begins with a 'T'. once again katakiri is ignored, hella annoying

 

[Ulevo]

You can tell very clearly he had no informed opinion on the character. Meta Knight's portion of the video was literally "Ito, S2H, Tyrant, yeah. Moving on."

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Not at all surprised by this anymore rofl.

 

[Amadeus9]

It's clear that no one wants to give this character the time of day. Mentioning Meta Knight in most places gets very polar responses about how he is one of the worst characters in the game. It's lucky that Zero even put him in mid tier, lol. I think soon, once more players take the Meta game (pun intended) up to Ito's level we'll see him climb as far as general opinion goes. A lot of what I see is people will say "no, the character is bad, Ito is just good", which is completely brain dead to say when a total of like, 7 people have been developing his meta.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

We will continue to grow our community internally as we have been and the results will speak louder than any one else ever could. We are slowly growing. And we are getting better and better. Hell, last weekend I beat someone who's even taken a set off of Katakiri. I have so much work to do but I'm getting my **** together haha. And if I am, I'm sure Bonk, Fye and all the other rising talents are too.

 

[Amadeus9]

We will continue to grow our community internally as we have been and the results will speak louder than any one else ever could. We are slowly growing. And we are getting better and better. Hell, last weekend I beat someone who's even taken a set off of Katakiri. I have so much work to do but I'm getting my **** together haha. And if I am, I'm sure Bonk, Fye and all the other rising talents are too.

Yes, that's precisely what I mean. People can say all they want about MK, but you can't argue with results. You're all really hard workers, too.

 

[warionumbah2]

Wish i was in murica dammit, the competitive scene is bigger and more relevant there. We main Nintendo's batman so we'll always be in the shadows, besides Ito he's a celebrity.

I'll walk through NYC playing this.

 

[SAX]

So I went to a tournament yesterday and managed to beat poltergust's yoshi In tournament pretty solidly. He then switched to luigi which I was still winning in stock and percent every game, but I died to down throw up b every stock games 2 and 3 at like 80%. I held away and spammed jump just like I was taught to do so to avoid the up b, but poltergust still got the up b every time. Is this inescapable for meta knight? Do I have to air dodge it? I didn't try that. Not sure if Samir dodging is faster that jumping. It just irritates me that I outplayed him all 3 games and I lose because I die at 80. Anyone have any more exp with this down throw up b?

 

[Amadeus9]

So I went to a tournament yesterday and managed to beat poltergust's yoshi In tournament pretty solidly. He then switched to luigi which I was still winning in stock and percent every game, but I died to down throw up b every stock games 2 and 3 at like 80%. I held away and spammed jump just like I was taught to do so to avoid the up b, but poltergust still got the up b every time. Is this inescapable for meta knight? Do I have to air dodge it? I didn't try that. Not sure if Samir dodging is faster that jumping. It just irritates me that I outplayed him all 3 games and I lose because I die at 80. Anyone have any more exp with this down throw up b?

It is a true combo at certain percents iirc.

 

[Ulevo]

Spoiler

So, here are the summary cliff notes for comboing Sheik:

At 0%, the most consisting or rewarding followups are
• Down Throw, Shuttle Launch 1: 22%
• Down Throw, Pivot Mach Tornado: 28%
• Dash Attack, Neutral Air: 15-16%
• Dash Attack, Shuttle Launch: 17-18%

Down throw to shuttle launch works only if the opponent does not DI towards Meta Knight. If they do, they take 13% instead. Down throw to pivot Mach Tornado does the most damage, but will not work if the opponent DI's away, and loses damage the higher the % they are. Opponents will have a natural inclination to DI away, so this is risky. Dash attack 1 & 2 to neutral air is very good. It does a solid 15-16%, and if you follow their DI, you have mixup options. You can footstool down air, or Mach Tornado. Dash attack to Shuttle Launch is the most finicky because you cannot do it unless the opponent DI's away after being hit, but it is a followup. I feel neutral air is more reliable and rewarding. All of these can be used after a down tilt trip.

From 6% - 22%:
• Down Throw, Up Smash, Shuttle Launch 3: 22-28%
• Dash Attack 1, Mach Tornado: 28% (6% - 13%)

From 9% - 21%:
• Dash Attack 1, Up Smash, Shuttle Launch 3: 21%

After about 6-9%, dash attack and down throw to up smash to Shuttle Launch becomes a viable combo. Before this point, Shuttle Launch will whiff. Most often, the second hit Shuttle Launch will miss. This is okay, as it still provides solid damage and leaves Meta Knight safe. There is a small window from 6-13% where dash attack 1 in to Mach Tornado is a viable combo, and will yield on average 26% with a good mash, however it will fail if any DI is used.

From 15% - 30%, 45%:
• Dash Attack, Short Hop Up Air, Neutral Air: 20-21%
• Down Throw, Short Hop Up Air, Neutral Air: 22%

From 15% - 40%:
• Dash Attack, Up Air, Shuttle Loop: 21-22%

From 20% - 70%:
• Dash Attack, Up Air, Up Air, Up Air...Shuttle Loop

From the 15% mark, dash attack and down throw to up air to neutral air & Shuttle Loop becomes a viable option. From a dash attack, this will work until around 30%, while from a down throw it will work until 45%, assuming no DI. Around the 20% mark is when Meta Knight is able to begin his up air strings, however Meta Knight needs to use short hop buffered up airs to do so at the earlier %'s, which takes proper timing.

From 20% - 135%, when the opponent DI's away:
• Dash Attack, Shuttle Loop/Shuttle Launch: 17-18%
• Down Throw, Shuttle Loop/Shuttle Launch: 19%

In the event the opponent is DI'ing away from you, particularly from down throw, this is the best option. A dash attack 1 combo will connect up to 120% with no DI, while a dash attack 2 combo will connect up to 125% with no DI and a Shuttle Loop 3. With DI, it becomes harder. Down throw will connect a combo up to 135% with no DI.

Meta Knight can mix up Sheik with down throw:
• Down Throw, Buffered Shuttle Launch 1: 19%
• Down Throw, Buffered Shuttle Launch 2: 19%

Shuttle Launch 1 will cover Sheik if she attempts to DI in, or not DI at all, while Shuttle Launch 2 will cover Sheik if she attempts to DI away, or not DI at all. This means it becomes a 50/50, and if Meta Knight guesses right, he can land this combo up to 93% with Shuttle Launch 1 if Sheik does not DI away, or up to 53% if Sheik does DI away. While unlikely to happen, it is worth noting that if Shuttle Launch 1 lands, it can kill Sheik at the higher %'s, particularly on lower ceiling stages.

At the ledge:
• Standard Attack, Buffered Shuttle Loop: 18%
• Down Throw, Forward Air: 13%
• Up Throw, Shuttle Loop: 22%
• Shuttle Loop, Shuttle Loop: 18%

If Meta Knight ever finds himself at the ledge with his back to the blast zone and Sheik right in front of him, he can connect standard attack in to a buffered Shuttle Loop 2 past 50%. This will not work if you have the A + B for Smash turned on. If you grab your opponent at the ledge and have no room to run, there are two options. From 0% - 35%, you can down throw to forward air Sheik. This may work longer if they DI inward, but it will only work earlier if they DI away. From 25% - 55%, if they DI inward, up throw to Shuttle Loop will connect. Lastly, if you are recovering to the stage and Sheik is close to the ledge, Shuttle Loop to Shuttle Loop is a potential option from 45% - 95%, and will kill at the higher ranges.

While sharking or juggling:
• Full Hop Up Air, Neutral Air: 15%
• Full Hop Up Air, Shuttle Loop: 17%
• Up Air, Shuttle Loop: 17%

On platforms like those on Battlefield, up air from a full hop can reliably connect with neutral air between 30% - 75%. Rather than using back air if they DI behind you, use Shuttle Loop for more damage, up to 120%. And finally, whenever your opponent is above you, if you land a double jump up air, you can reliably connect with Shuttle Loop for a possible kill up to 110%.

If you feel like being cheeky:
• Back Air 2, Reverse Shuttle Launch: 18%
• Back Air 2, Down Smash 2: 13%
• Down Tilt, Shuttle Launch: 20%

Back air 2 at any point can be used to put the opponent in a tech situation, and only stops working at around 180% due to the KBG of back air 1. Reverse Shuttle Launch can kill or deal good damage, while down smash is safer and can knock the opponent off stage. From 101% - 135%, Meta Knight can down tilt Sheik and force her in to a tech situation. Because this is hard to react to, if Sheik fails to tech in this window, she is susceptible to a Shuttle Launch from a dash, which will kill her instantly. Dash attack is also an option here if you are weary of using Shuttle Launch.

Meta Knight's Instant Kill:
• Forward Throw, Full Hop Up Air, Up Air X, Shuttle Loop
• Down Throw, Full Hop Up Air, Up Air X, Shuttle Loop
• Dash Attack, Full Hop Up Air, Up Air X, Shuttle Loop

From 25% - 40%, Sheik is danger of dying to Meta Knight's forward throw. Forward throw on paper is not very good, but because it is so difficult to DI on reaction, it makes it the most reliable option for setting this up. From 30% - 50%, Sheik is in danger of dying to Meta Knight's down throw, however this is much less likely to happen thanks to the larger window the opponent has to DI correctly. From 28% - 38%, Sheik can die from dash attack. This is hard to react to, but has a less lenient window. All of these were tested on Final Destination, and the % window is going to be greater on other stages.

Miscellaneous:
• Down Tilt
• Up Tilt

Down tilt can trip Sheik until 57%, giving you free opportunity for any followup you wish. Up tilt 1 is not a good combo finisher, and cannot combo as a combo starter. However, Up Tilt 2 can be used next to Sheik to start an up air chain between 30% - 70%.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

So I went to a tournament yesterday and managed to beat poltergust's yoshi In tournament pretty solidly. He then switched to luigi which I was still winning in stock and percent every game, but I died to down throw up b every stock games 2 and 3 at like 80%. I held away and spammed jump just like I was taught to do so to avoid the up b, but poltergust still got the up b every time. Is this inescapable for meta knight? Do I have to air dodge it? I didn't try that. Not sure if Samir dodging is faster that jumping. It just irritates me that I outplayed him all 3 games and I lose because I die at 80. Anyone have any more exp with this down throw up b?

Welcome to the MU. Only heavy/fastfallers have a chance of SDIing out that move. Unfortunately, lightweight and/or floaties get destroyed by that combo and don't really have a chance to get out if the Luigi id competent. Camp your ass off at kill percentages.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I really hope this helps people to stop taking every single one of ZeRo's opinions as facts.

Seriously, it gets really annoying that whenever there's a debate, people will try to counter-argument with "ZeRo says that..."

 

[warionumbah2]

Welcome to the MU. Only heavy/fastfallers have a chance of SDIing out that move. Unfortunately, lightweight and/or floaties get destroyed by that combo and don't really have a chance to get out if the Luigi id competent. Camp your *** off at kill percentages.

MK isn't floaty bruh look at his armor, he falls faster than Gdorf.

Jumping comes out slower than airdodges, but chances are airdodging will lead to something more dangerous. Never been caught in this combo before.

And SAX when you got the stock lead did you attempt to camp him? He has to approach no matter what and he won't get you even on BF.

 

[LostinpinK]

So I went to a tournament yesterday and managed to beat poltergust's yoshi In tournament pretty solidly. He then switched to luigi which I was still winning in stock and percent every game, but I died to down throw up b every stock games 2 and 3 at like 80%. I held away and spammed jump just like I was taught to do so to avoid the up b, but poltergust still got the up b every time. Is this inescapable for meta knight? Do I have to air dodge it? I didn't try that. Not sure if Samir dodging is faster that jumping. It just irritates me that I outplayed him all 3 games and I lose because I die at 80. Anyone have any more exp with this down throw up b?

I've escaped a lot of dthrow up B by holding down and SDing down as well. Neither this solution nor yours are garanteed, but they require different mashups from Luigi. The major problem of your solution is that it favors greedy players who want to bring you as high as possible, which kills you earlier. With DIing down, they can still get you but need to mash less so you won't be as high when the final hit connects, thus surviving better.
This is just my understanding though, I didn't go into extensive tests.
As the guys said, since we fall quickly, escaping downwards might be easier as well.


I'm not as disappointed in Zero's videos as you guys. I think MK's placement is correct, even though I don't know the custom meta too well. We would just win a few spots (basically beating Palutena / DK) in the vanilla meta and get to about 20th place, which I think is correct. We're probably better than Pacman in vanilla and customs too. But I don't see MK get past the Pits anyway, and certainly not ROB who's at least as good.

 

[warionumbah2]

Its not the placement we are disappointed in(we knew he wouldn't put MK in high, since SOLID MID TIER is a thing and now people WILL bandwagon his opinion) but its the explanation on the MK segment.

He basically said "Ito,Tyrant,S2H, he's doin well, erm.. its very hard too... and yeah anyway Kirby". Its like ok thanks dude.

No biggie.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't even care about tier lists and you guys shouldn't either. Besides the obvious top 3-5 characters, the rest are mostly just opinions lol.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

MK isn't floaty bruh look at his armor, he falls faster than Gdorf.

Jumping comes out slower than airdodges, but chances are airdodging will lead to something more dangerous. Never been caught in this combo before.

And SAX when you got the stock lead did you attempt to camp him? He has to approach no matter what and he won't get you even on BF.

I know that yo. I was just making a general reference. Hence why I said lightweight "and/or". I know my character bruh.

Kinda?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Double Post:

http://smashboards.com/threads/project-playhem-weeklies-15-livonia-mi-6-11-15.405918/

7th out of 70 yesterday at the local. Beat a PR'ed Sheik in Winner's (#5 in MI, keeps beating me). I was super close to 5th and beyond but lost a super close set to another ranked player. I played super well though. Holy **** Tap Jump on was the best idea ever. And watching all these videos made my punishes way more on point. In addition, I am becoming sponsored by a local gaming business here! Team uniform, travel stipend etc. I guess they couldn't pass up the offer to scoop up their local MK main So I guess I need to change my user name to Pulse | Technology. The rest of the sponsored players are all quite skilled. Mostly PR'ed players (Zinoto is in the group). I'm getting sooooo much support from my scene. Its really awesome. Yesterday was a great day.

 

[Superbat]

Ito's games with zex were so cleannnn. (Stealing all of your tech btw)

 

[Qazoo306]

Congratulations Technology!

So besides Shuttle Launch out of shield, what does Tap Jump let you do? It could help with Up Air strings I guess, but it doesn't seem necessary. Whenever I play with it on I feel like I accidentally burn my jumps all the time. What else does it help with, and is it worth it to turn on?

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

Thanks! I started using Tap Jump for both my Up Air strings and Shuttle Loop OoS but I found it to be too much too soon so I went back to using X for jumping in general and my strings and just really practiced it. Now I am easily getting those 4-5 Up Airs + Shuttle Loop. So at this point Tap Jump is just being used for Shuttle Loop OoS. Yes, I am aware you can just set a shoulder button to Jump but its too awkward for me. Why press an extra button when I don't have to?

Consistent SL OoS is so ****ing good. Its so fast too. It worth changing around my controller scheme for because it lets you punish stuff so hard, so fast. Its especially good for my playstyle because I am really good at powershielding.

 

[warionumbah2]

Usually i block out commentary when watching MK but they said something useful.

"Ito told me that he doesn't use u-smash after down throw, DA is a good follow up out of down throw at low percents"

Real talk you get a footstool combo if you get the last hitbox of DA, but you can get a solid 25-33% combo as well. Stealing Ito's ****, he's like a bank that leaves the door open for us to take. Shuttle loop OOS is frame 8 + Dair OOS is frame 5 FYI.

What sets Ito apart from all of us is mainly his intellect on the character and game overall. Like against ZSS he knows what we can and cannot do, when ZSS was sh bair spamming he waited cuz he knows we can't do ****. When ZSS runs back he doesn't chase he foxtrots then walks a bit.

And people say prevent from being solo main viable.

 

[Oblivion129]

Congrats, @ ZTD | TECHnology !

I use tap jump but I still use Y to jump. If I'm in the air I could use the control stick to jump but it's optional. What I really like about tap jump is that it extends the aerial SL since it makes you jump before the attack. It also helps when shuttle looping from a dash.

 

[Superbat]

Ryu's gonna be top tier and Roy will get the mew too treatment and still be a poopy character. Smh. (Hyped for ryu tho.) not so much for 3 Marths

 

[warionumbah2]

Yay another swordsman copying Ryu's headband swag, we need 3 more FE characters tho.

Ryu is more recognisable than 99% of the cast, so its a good move to include him but Roy? To please FE fans and melee fans? Most of the hype is towards Ryu tbh.

 

[Ulevo]

Yay another swordsman copying Ryu's headband swag, we need 3 more FE characters tho.

Ryu is more recognisable than 99% of the cast, so its a good move to include him but Roy? To please FE fans and melee fans? Most of the hype is towards Ryu tbh.

I think you underestimate the Roy fans. Also, if Roy is good in any way, count on a lot of Marth mains to be swapping over.

 

[warionumbah2]

The problem with dash attack out of down throw is that it does not work

Works fine for me.

Especially on fast fallers, people seem to always DI away when getting down thrown. If it didn't work then why did Ito land it?

 

[Exdeath]

SAX clearly said Up-B (Shoryuken), not Down-B (Cyclone).

 

[Ulevo]

Works fine for me.

Especially on fast fallers, people seem to always DI away when getting down thrown. If it didn't work then why did Ito land it?

That was at the beginning of something I was going to quote that I failed to finish. I know it combos, mind you only when they DI away and on certain characters. Don't know why it posted that.

To be fair, Ito gets away with a lot of things that are not guaranteed.

 

[Fye]

Looks like I'm the only Roy-Boy here. If he's top 20 worthy, I will probably co-main him along with the bat. Realistically though, Sakurai's interview leads me to believe that he will keep DLC characters bad to deter people from calling it pay-to-win or bias.

 

[Qazoo306]

Wow sakurai. That's simultaneously genius and awful at the same time. I hope roy gets the center blade sweet spot and his DED turnaround from PM.

So what's everyone's favorite color to use as the bat?

 

[Superbat]

All black everything. (+ red eyes) ^