The Metalblade Fan Club: Unutilized Shield Pressure / Potential Break Setup

[redcometchar]

So comet, falling mb spawn to instatoss is no good?

Depends on the height. From a full hop its unsafe, but just above that (double jump) and its super safe. You can launch z drop pressure or instatoss stuff.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

this is awesome. some of that stuff on the japanese vine looked super real.

 

[Wreck33]

Yeah its hella fun on for glory atleast.

 

[PseudoPac]

Don't have the chance to read everything, but I'll share this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azjibnXfZ_s
It needs more testing to see if it is a true block string but with the 3 frames of shield stun along with another possible variable, it'd be difficult at the very least. Works on tall skinny characters like Shiek, ZSS, and Wii Fit while shield-stabbing fatter characters like DK and Falcon.
The plan was to reveal the "rapid z-drop," (or whatever you guys want to call it) with an explanation but along with being lazy, I've had a bit of trouble getting a mic. Going to just order one just because it's ridiculous how long I've been sitting on this along with some other undiscovered or just unpopular Megaman tech. As for this tech, I don't realistically see this being too strong competitively play considering all the limitations of Z-dropping along with this being considerably difficult to be consistent with. However, I'd love to be proven wrong.
It may be off topic, but it can be used to combo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=azjibnXfZ_s
I've also been playing around with using it on the ledge to cover get up options similar Falcon's jab or Ryu's light up-tilt. I'll be a little more in depth in my video, but this is about it for the most part.

 

[redcometchar]

You linked the same video twice.

But, yeah that looks like the true blockstring we have been discussing. Wether or not it was actually true depends a little on the timing but it looked good. Looking forward to the vid.

Meistermayo i laughed so hard when i saw the thread title.

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

we just need some practical options here. we need to pair down to some practical basic stuff

 

[PseudoPac]

Woops. Here's the combo: https://youtu.be/0BpdVv7lZoA

 

[Dr.Megaman]

What directions does the opponent go if you z drop the MB?

 

[Meistermayo]

This is a similar thing i posted on the boards a while ago (no judgement). Does this style of the combo work on anyone else? The version i found is just raw zdrops to bair at (potentially) 92%, but only worked on dk

 

[8383d3 90 90 10 hundred]

Woops. Here's the combo: https://youtu.be/0BpdVv7lZoA

holy

 

[redcometchar]

Does this style of the combo work on anyone else? The version i found is just raw zdrops to bair at (potentially) 92%, but only worked on dk

Well theoretically it should work on anyone since you can catch and drop metalblade faster than the hitbox refreshes, 2 compared to 5

What directions does the opponent go if you z drop the MB?

In my expierience it will send based on where the impact is. Drop it on opponents right side, it will send him left, on his left side, right.

 

[PseudoPac]

There are a lot of variables to consider when combing with the "rapid z-drop" (again, name pending). To put it short, consistency scales with width and height of the opponent. DK and ROB are hit the hardest being able to easily link three z-drops in a single combo. It'll technically work on Sheik and others, but the spacing and timing is unreasonably strict.

 

[redcometchar]

So i have been trying to figure out how to predict metalblade despawns and i have a few theories. If someone else can verify my findings that would be cool.

First of all, its important to layout that i dont entirely understand general item despawn timers. I havent tested items that arent turnip or metalblade.

First rule:
-metalblade cant despawn when being held. Obviously.

Second rule:
- If the metalblade travels set distance after thrown or dropped it despawns. When it hits the ground or is caught the timer resets.

Third rule:
-If it spends a set time in the ground state it despawns. This timer does not reset (edit: it does reset). From my tests this time is around 2.7 seconds or 162 frames.

Fourth rule:
- on ground impact metal blade has a random chance of dissapearing.

I know the fourth rule kind of defeats the whole point but its all ive got. But if these are right, you should be able to z drop regrab forever without worrying about a metal blade despawn.

 

[xIvan321]

I'm calling it shine 2.0 or dank memes 2.0.

Relevant: You should be able to get 3-rehits against everyone. Theoretically, its hard to punish when we factor in the fact we can do this out of shield, and even if we were to be grabbed, likely the metal blade could break you out of grab. However certain reversals exist if this gets too predictable, however its gonna be really hard to challenge when the metal blade is hitting so much faster than your opponent to be ready to counter it. That's just my impressions of it so far.

 

[Meistermayo]

Unfortunately there is also

• Some moves outprioritize Mb
• Swords DEFINITELY outprioritize Mb
• Mb can be grabbed

So this may be limited to a punish setup?

I have used mb as sort of a Anti air but of course they could grab or hit the mb.

Someone referenced a "wall of mb that moves towards you" but i dont think that setup can be useful with these constraints as well as the fact that mb gets pulled behind your hurtboxes when you move backwards to regrab

 

[CopShowGuy]

So i have been trying to figure out how to predict metalblade despawns and i have a few theories. If someone else can verify my findings that would be cool.

First of all, its important to layout that i dont entirely understand general item despawn timers. I havent tested items that arent turnip or metalblade.

First rule:
-metalblade cant despawn when being held. Obviously.

Second rule:
- If the metalblade travels set distance after thrown or dropped it despawns. When it hits the ground or is caught the timer resets.

Third rule:
-If it spends a set time in the ground state it despawns. This timer does not reset. From my tests this time is around 2.7 seconds or 162 frames.

Fourth rule:
- on ground impact metal blade has a random chance of dissapearing.

I know the fourth rule kind of defeats the whole point but its all ive got. But if these are right, you should be able to z drop regrab forever without worrying about a metal blade despawn.

I thought these rules were a given. It's the last one that baffles everyone. You can indeed reuse a Metal Blade indefinitely with recatching. The ONLY times it disappears is randomly if thrown to the ground/wall (never on the first throw but as early as the second), if it travels a set distance when thrown, or if it sits lodged in the stage too long.

 

[xIvan321]

This post for whatever reason repeated what I said, delete it. I apologize in advance.

 

[redcometchar]

I thought these rules were a given. It's the last one that baffles everyone. You can indeed reuse a Metal Blade indefinitely with recatching. The ONLY times it disappears is randomly if thrown to the ground/wall (never on the first throw but as early as the second), if it travels a set distance when thrown, or if it sits lodged in the stage too long.

Ok well i was trying to pull a pattern out and have been unsuccessful. Thought i would just post what i had and see what everyone else knew.

Also it looks like the ground timer does reset.

Unfortunately there is also

• Some moves outprioritize Mb
• Swords DEFINITELY outprioritize Mb
• Mb can be grabbed

So this may be limited to a punish setup?

There is definitely some neutral utility here. Because of how megaman hold mb its actually quite a ways from megamans hurtbox. For example ryus fair will clank with metalblade and lock ryu in place temporarily allowing you to set up a punish.
Ryu has to commit to challenge this metalblade because megaman is not in any lag.

Other characters might have varying degrees of difficulty dealing with this but there is for sure some potential here, especially when paired with the rest of megamans kit. Technically a zdropped metalblade into pellet looks nigh impenetrable. Also keep in mind if the opponent does something stupid when megaman has metalblade, they die. For example Ryu's hadoken gets canceled out by mb. So if ryu throws hadoken in neutral and megaman is like anywhere on the screen, he eats an up smash.

 

[Meistermayo]

so for the ryu scenario, the punish would be a ditcit?

Also, you said that spawn mb from above a fullhop is safe. Are you referring to on the way down or in general? Could you spawn the mb while rising and still be safe?

 

[redcometchar]

so for the ryu scenario, the punish would be a ditcit?

Yeah.

As for mb spawn safety, spawning it on the way up kind of defeats the purpose, because the opponent can just react to it and grab the mb.
Its safe from a fullhop because you can act before you hit the ground and technically if the opponent tries to run up and shield you can immideatly launch zdrop shield pressure. If they are expecting it they can always jump and aeiral but its the safest way to spawn metal blade.

 

[Megamang]

You can also pick up a metal blade with a jab or nair to increase the safety of the immediate pickup. You'll have to fall off for pressuring since you're locked into lemons, but something like nair - jab - nair while jumping away is super safe and does a lot for your shield pressure.

 

[Meistermayo]

ive been playing around with mb recently-- casual findings are you can grab a zdrop mb with an aerial from a neutral jump instead of a backwards moving jump. Theres just a timing and you have to be rising to do it.

Currently experimenting with new strats. Mainly

1. While holding mb, Fire one or two pellets and then turn around, and then jump backwards, allowing for a quick, offensive zdrop
2. Run up rar zdrop mb uair -- an offensive sh uair lead by a frame 5 melee projectile
3. Sh Jump away zdrop mb bair fastfall (no regrab) -- theoretically a safe bair in neutral... Need comet to look at the numbers for that. Would lose to spacing, but win on hit or shield.
4. Jump away, bthrow mb, slide -- cute. The bthrow animation turns you back to the opponent allowing for a slide.
5. B-reverse mb while holding mb -- potential mobility option? Megaman is in lag briefly but if done after a zdrop, this could end up being hard to punish. 10-20 damage on hit, safety if on block or whiff. Also, when combined with rush and platforms and edgecancels, this can lead to a lot of ambiguous movement.

• • If done with a leaf shield instead of mb special, it can become a combo. not useful, but cute.

 

[redcometchar]

Well the frame data on that back air sequence doesn't look good.

Back air on its own is -16 on shield even when spaced perfectly, so were counting on the mb to seal up that hole and make this a little safe.

Lets say we drop the metal blade from the apex of a short hop, and it hits 4 times. that will lock the opponents shield for 12 frames or so. Even if we do an immideate back air, the metalblade wont even come close to covering for it, since the last hit comes out frame 10.

Maybe a spaced full hop zdrop fastfall back air would work better. that way the metalblade would start hitting a shielding opponent during our lag.

Also id like to point out that the metalblade toss animation is 43 frames long. That limits its potential as a mobility option. Even if you were able to bait out a shield grab or something with it, they would probably recover from lag before you and punish you for it.

 

[Megamang]

Unless someone has a really amazing grounded poke, bair is decently safe. I've used the dropping blade to cover it for a while, its pretty good. You can do a ****ton of damage if you hit the blade. You also have landing uairs, cross up fair (meh, but combos) and landing pellet while picking up the blade to rejump all while firing pellets (lots of shield pressure and damage, but will trade poorly)


Or just landing and grabbing them, which with a higher drop can grab them from shield, hit MB, then get the 12% from a throw. Damage!


---

Held metal blade toss has much better frame data, and threatens glide toss/DICIT. You can condition someone to shield to start zdropping on their shield by simply always tossing the MB at mid range and making them decide the shield is the best option.Some (stupid) characters can just lolusmash you for getting near their shield though.

 

[redcometchar]

I dont know about you guys but ive pretty much dropped megaman, i mean metalblade. (So you could say ive dropped metalblade kappa)

He cant do anything safely without metalblade, and cant dish out real punishes without it. Metalblade spawn is pretty reactable at 43 frames so if he isnt at full screen i can pretty much dash attack him and take metalblade every time.

Even with metalblade, you can pretty much always anti air megamans jumps on reaction. Even if you get hit by an instant aerial, they are so laggy and dont auto cancel so you can literally take the hit and punish him for it.

The only thing you ever need to worry about is metal blade throws and drops. If megaman is holding metalblade all you have to do is throw out constant hitboxes and beat it out when it comes in.

Character seems super unrewarding.

 

[Megamang]

Metal blade toss -> pellets soft punishes those things and is incredibly safe. Metal blade OOS is way safer and faster and is one of thebest reasons an item projectile is so valuable. Air shooter is one of thehighest rewards there is. Bair is f4 and kills.. shoryu is shoryu. Honestly, and no offense, it sounds like you need to rely on MB less. I do have other characters for certain MUs, but his Diddy and Sonic and Ryu MUS are wayyyy to valuable in bracket to drop him. He is only getting better tbh.

 

[redcometchar]

None taken.

I still feel like mb is his only good tool.

Air shooter isnt that high of a reward. Falling air shooter gives you what, another air shooter or back air? Thats trash tier compared to what the rest of the cast gets off of a falling aerial, espcially an unsafe one.

Back air doesnt kill that early and its unsafe.

Pellets loose to every hitbox in the game and at some ranges are unsafe on hit.

Metalblade is literally megamans only game plan. Only way to catch rolls, only good ranged projectile, only good shield pressure tool, only good punish tool, only oos option etc, etc, etc.

That wouldn't really bother me if metalblade didnt loose to every hitbox in the game, disapear randomly and be really easy to catch. On top of that lets not forger he has to respawn it after every use.

I dont see what im missing. Even up tilt and down tilt arent that good.

 

[Wreck33]

You certainly miss a lot. Mega Mans controls his games and decides who wins and loses better then anyone. One of the absolute best chars in the game for me. Probably you underestimate him because you haven't felt how he is to play when you know how to shoot pellets correctly.

 

[CopShowGuy]

I wouldn't cry doom near as much but I can agree that Mega Man has some very unsafe options. It's crazy how his dthrow > fair combo at lower percents is unsafe on hit and outright doesn't work at mid to high percents.

 

[Megamang]

Everyones throws stop working at higher percentages.

Megaman gets well above average damage per grab. 3% pummel is sick, and its slow enough to unstale his moves! Which is great because you want fresh bair/uair to get dem kills. If you get a grab with leaf shield up, thats another stack of damage. This is something I wanted to bring up in a metagame thread or something, but Megamans should start using more throws besides dthrow. Uthrow is the same damn thing for 50% more damage. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and fthrow is pretty good for a fthrow with solid damage and unreactable DI mixups on bthrow.

Dthrow RAR bair should be your go to at lower damages, it should true combo and be safe on hit, and it does more damage. If they start mashing airdodge, you have uair for more damage. .Speaking of which, Uair is pretty damn safe on shield for its possible reward. Floating backwards or a crossup makes it totally safe.

And you shouldn't chuck your MB unless you know its going to hit. You have access to 2 other projectiles while holding the damn thing. Leaf shield is especially amazing; between throwing the leaf shield, throwing the metal blade and zoning with the leaf shield (which will beat them out if they throw the MB), throwing the blade and going in with a leaf grab, or launching into leaf protected zdrop pressure, I thinkMegaman straight up destroys a lot of characters with lemonless zoning. But then you have lemons. The fact that metal blade is destroyed by everything is actually a blessing, basically any zoning option we chose will destroy the metal blade. Compared to Diddy or ROB, losing our item projectile is basically a pointless 'answer' to it. I have no fear at all of someone holding the blade, and it limits their options significantly. . I honestly do rely on metal blade a lot, but this is because the opponent taking it is part of my gameplan, usually by the end of a set they have decided to just ignore it.

You can also space them in the air to disappear after hitting shield, which makes them safe pressure that you can throw again.

Also,you can shoot crash bombers while holding a metal blade. Dank!

 

[redcometchar]

Everyones throws stop working at higher percentages.

Megaman gets well above average damage per grab.

3% pummel is sick, and its slow enough to unstale his moves!

Megamans should start using more throws besides dthrow. Uthrow is the same damn thing for 50% more damage. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and fthrow is pretty good for a fthrow with solid damage and unreactable DI mixups on bthrow.

Uair is pretty damn safe on shield for its possible reward. Floating backwards or a crossup makes it totally safe.

And you shouldn't chuck your MB unless you know its going to hit.

Leaf shield is especially amazing;

The fact that metal blade is destroyed by everything is actually a blessing,

Also,you can shoot crash bombers while holding a metal blade. Dank!

No, not everyone's throws stop working at high percentages, but anyway megamans throw stops working at 65 percent with no di and 45 with di away. Which isnt even high.

Megaman does not get above average damage per grab. down throw fair does 12 percent. Mewtwo's forward throw alone does 13. In fact Megaman's grabs are laughable.

How slow a pummel is has nothing to do with move staling, you do know that right?

Megamans only combo throw is down. Up forward and back combo into nothing. At this point in not actually sure we play the same game. You are talking about Smash for wii u right?

Up air is not safe on shield man! It's not! Its like -8 on big characters! on kirby its like -12! that's not safe at all! And you dont get jack off it!

You never can be really sure if your metalblade is going to hit so this isnt a consistent answer.

Leaf shield is trash!

No, the fact that metalblade gets destroyed by everything is definetly a bad thing!

Crash bomb also sucks!

 

[Wreck33]

Luckily though the game can't be understood with this above logic alone. Even though you downplay what mega man gets from his kit. Its the core of the char that makes him a top contender and believe me he would be the best char in the game by a big stretch if he had bigger guaranteed easy combos.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Leaf Shield cannot be considered as trash when it leads to free grabs. Yes, people can still attack you during it's starting frames (I wish there were more good Mega Man on FG, that would make ok practice), but that simply means that you should wait more before using it. The thing also travels a HUGE distance, so it's easier to harrass people who try to get away from you for some reason. Or you could just SGT ->grab with Leaf Shield active for maximum giggles XD

MB getting destroyed by everything simply means that your opponent won't get much from holding onto it. Sure, they got rid of one of your options, but what do they get ? Unless they are Mewtwo, Samus or Pac-Man, they lost ALL of their A-moves, which is nothing short of a drawback, while we keep all our moveset bar MB.

Crash Bomb is just a pressure tool, and a convenient escape button at hgher %s. Really, the thing can backfire pretty badly if you aren't careful (cuz solo combos yo), but they force your opponent to shield or counter if they feel lucky, and a well places Charge Shot can easily punish reckless Counters, or deal heavy shield damage. Btw, FSmash + CB + MB = at least 29 % of Shield Damage

 

[Sleek Media]

I've stuck strictly to lurking on Smashboards the last few months because it's so easy to get sucked into time wasting arguments that go nowhere, but this is getting insane. We're 18 months into this game, and this board still shows no indication that it understands how the character works or (perhaps willingly ignores) what its limitations are. I just want to offer some support for the first person I've seen making realistic posts on this board in months. Listen to redcometchar , because he's on point in this discussion.

I'll keep my points as short as I can, and I'm going to ignore nonsense like "b-but Scatt beat X", or "you can't just look at the game that way", and of course my favorite: "you can do X damage with this combo that is completely impractical in a competitive environment".

Here's the deal. Mega Man has possibly the worst neutral in the game in terms of priority, and that MATTERS. Pellets, Crash Bomb, Metal Blade, and even THROWN LEAF SHIELD can all be punched through as if they aren't even there, and once an opponent learns the MU and figures out how to do that, your zoning neutral is sunk and you're forced to rely on his trash tier mixups.

Read that last sentence again. Then again. Commit it to memory. That is what this board needs to understand in order to start working around Mega Man's limitations and advance his meta. You will get nowhere with crazy glide tosses or unreliable z-drop combos. You need to keep the neutral from completely falling apart, and knowing what makes it fall apart is the first step.

As for his other problems, Mega Man's smash attacks might as well not even exist, with only the barely-functional uSmash seeing use, and even that is horrible. Low power/damage, unable to tag opponents standing up on the ledge or on BF platforms because of the dead frames and alternating hitbox size, and even up throwing aerial opponents out on the first hit randomly puts it on the same level as Duck Hunt's garbage smashes, and that's our best smash. Shield demolishes Mega Man's game plan. What are you going to do, drop in and z-drop a metal blade? Empty hop in for a grab? It's so easy to bait Mega Man players into unsafe approaches like this, and if Mega falls behind in stock or percent, many characters can quickly run away with the game through simple bait-and-punish play. Recovery is average at best...it's just Sonic's but without the hurt box, invincibility, ability to combo, or ability to laglessly come down with an auto cancelled aerial. Sometimes it can save an opponent too if you're not careful. At least it's better than Duck Hunt's.

Luckily, humans aren't perfect, so some projectiles will get through, and we'll get our little 12% grab combo off quite often, so we can hold it together. Completely trashing Mega Man requires a VERY high level of play that most people are simply never exposed to, and an extremely skilled Mega Man player can hold his own for a long time in tournament, at least until he encounters an equally skilled high tier player who actually knows the MU (and some mid/low tiers as well). Pay attention to that last part. It's why you are all so confused about various MUs and what is actually good and safe.

Metal Blade really is a huge part of Mega's gameplan despite its numerous limitations (why does attacking catch items?!). It is his only way to combo at high percents, and starts his only kill combos. It's also his only way to punish many attacks or catch rolling opponents. It's overall a pretty great tool. Not banana great, but I think it's fair to say that without it, Mega would be solidly low tier.

Back to lurking.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

You are right on most of your points Sleek Media , but I still disagree with redcometchar on his 3 last points.
That's taking the topic off the tracks, but I'll still try to explain myself (because I can't try to defend the others since I don't know what they really wanted to say ) :

• Metal Blade being catchable : while that is indeed a really annoying property (I lost track of how many times I tossed one only to see my opponent catch it AND punish me with a Dash Attack...), at it's core the move is all about making an Item with the weird property of dealing more damage when used as an item. I mean, that's the way the move itself was planned, so there's nothing to do about it. Plus, it comes at Frame 16 compared to the Mega Buster's Frame 7, so... if anyone rushes at you, just press Jab (I hope you got that reference guys )
• Leaf Shield = trash : now that's the one thing I really can't get. Yes, you can get grabbed / attacked while you have Leaf Shield up, but you can still toss an item Metal Blade, shield or move away. I mean seriously, none of Mega's moves should be used randomly because they have some insane endlag, and Leaf Shield isn't any different. The only thing to not forget is that you can always throw it, get a grab or let it end if you can afford it. For example, why the heck would you try using it against counters (they count) or Corrin's / Mii Gunner's (if you count it) ranged FSmash ? The answer is "I wouldn't" most of the time, just like for Charge Shot & Reflectors, because they are risky. It doesn't suck, but you should always try to use it only if you feel like the gamestate allows it.
• Crash Bomb sucks : Well, there's not much to say about this point since it's actually pretty fair... It all depends on how you decide too use it. Many people said it, and I'll say it again : Crash Bomb is a pressure tool, and cannot be used as a regular projectile for it has awful priority for some reason. I wonder if it would be better if it sticked to the ground after hitting a shield... But aside from theory crafting, while the thing won't kill early (and most of the times if it can people will be able to DI out the blast tbh), it still forces your opponent to try to latch it on you, get away to absorb the blast (or shield it) or punish you fast enough during your endlag. But here's the catch : you shouldn't use Crash Bomb on an opponent wh is starting to rush you down, or else it might just backfire , and I mean it. If Crash bomb ever connects (which can happen if you use it ona landing opponent), it becomes a Rock - Paper - Scissors : should your opponent pick any of these options, you should be ready to intercept them (and shielding can lead into getting grabbed / UAired). The move is still really weird tho...

That's pretty much everything I could have had to say. I still don't think ANYONE said that the Super Glide Toss was safe, but you are right about it. And if you want to go about running away once you get the advantage, I think that A LOT of characters can do it *glares at *, and that would be a problem for everyone (I don't think that TOs like Time Outs that much, even if they try to remember about them...), but that's the Play To Win mentality, and we should indeed take it into account when considering Match-Ups.

I still have some doubts on Charge Shot's case (really that thing can be glorious whe edgeguarding characters like Ike and Fox) and I don't like the fact that you didn't even mention the Mega Buster AT ALL, but that's for another thread (social I guess).
Oh, and Sonic can't jump after his UpB. *reminder *

I hope that I didn't leave too many errors in that wall of a post... and I'm glad that you took time to write something (btw, how are ya doing ? just asking)

 

[redcometchar]

Well ill try to reply to those three points.

Crash bomb
Two things. 1 crash bomb isnt safe at any range other than full screen. Its not fast, has tons of endlag, and has 0 stun. This means that the only time crash bomb is viable is in a tech chase situation. At any other time, the crash bomb can either a) be avoided on reaction by snails, or b) be punished on reaction by slugs. Also if you are hit by crash bomb, you can grab the ledge and remove the mixup, or in theory, if they powershield the crasbomb explosion they could use it as a safe approach.

Leaf shield
Baisically the same except worse, because in order to use it in a tech chase senario you would need to already have activated it. And lets not forget how it removes most of your options and is pretty much always punishible. And again, like with megamans buster or any other projectile, literally just short hop nair. It will beat the projectile and then hit megaman. Every time. And it doesnt garuntee grabs btw.

Metal blade catchable
The points being brought up are truly silver linings to mushroom clouds. "Its good the move is bad because that way they cant use it against you"? Really, come on guys. And for the record, megaman doesnt have a great way to punish metalblade because he doesnt have good aerials. Lemons arent fast enough to punish it.

Also thanks Sleek Media its nice to have some backup every once in a while.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

My point about Metal Blade is just a fact, we can't change it. So instead, let's just try to find a way around it. Complaining doesn't help that much... And I didn't say that the move couldn't be better. NEVER. And Frame 7 isn't that bad either. Not the fastest, but still manageable.

For Leaf Shield, I think that the Mega Buster shots are just blatantly better as a projectiles. But that doesn't mean that the move itself is bad.
And you are right about Crash Bomb. If we had a way to punish Ledge Options... Oh wait, Bair. (I know, we can only reliably punish Ledge Jumps with it...)

Trying to focus your playstyle around Metal Blade isn't necessarily a bad thing, but you cannot just downrate Lemons like that. You just can't ! (Unless you have good reasons to do so)

Btw, since this thread is supposed to be about The glorious Metal Blade (really, I mean it), shouldn't we take this discussion to the Social thread ?

 

[Megamang]

"lemons aren't fast enough to punish it"

What? you should be zoning with lemons at midrange, so they clank it when they throw it. with one lemon. Easily. Every time.

Also, the part where redcometchar is blatantly wrong about the speed of a pummel affecting staling then has the ego to question if I know what im talking about is quite amusing. do some research.If you'll take my word for it (maybe not since we are playing a different game) then you'd know that buffered pummels of a certain speed threshold don't unstale moves. Or just don't say things you don't know? When did they change that? Brawl's launch rofl.


Boo hoo my tools have counterplay. we having winning MUs on Cloud, Bayo,, Diddy, Sonic, Ryu, Villager. Close with everyone else except one character, who is much less common than Cloud and Diddy in backet. We also outright annihilate a lot of characters. If you feel you are so limited by Megaman, you should just play top tier.

Leaf shield is amazing. Only character in the game who can have a hitbox out with a dodge or shield, and it can be b reverse TWICE to help with landing. It also beats almost all projectiles, what the hell are you talking about that most projectiles beat leaf shield? ARE we playing the same game? SonicMega literally bodies most people in his region with a style more focused on leaf shield. And they know the MU, he isn't new to doing this. He made a new style instead of thinking about how good mega would be if fair was f1 and had ike's fair properties

With the changes suggested in here a good megaman would outright body almost every character. recent Japanese results show us that Megaman is doing really really well when his users are dedicated. skilled, and practiced. Tier lists place him in the top 15 and notable megaman have MU charts with 1 or 2 losing MUs. Maybe that guy beating your mega is just better. That took me a bit to accept but has actually allowed me to develop my game beyond 'that didn't work? Mega's fault'


go over to the mario boarsd or Ryu boards and look at peopple pushing forwaard a meta. People good with this character are succeeding. Scatt talks about what he can do to up his game, and he is better than everyone here. If you are toxic enough you want to blame the character, go ahead, but don't ask here why you drown in pools and assume its Megaman's fault. Guess what, you can get in on a Zoner, because he is supposed to be beatable. You have to make correct calls. Perhaps using megaman's f4 (fastest in the game tied with shiek) disjointed massive powerful aerial will help. Even though its not safe if you space like a fool! Should Megaman's blade be uncatcheable? Because as of right now, if you know how to pellet it won't ever damage you, so I don't know what else we want.

 

[Sleek Media]

Been busy, Diamond. Hope things are going well for you too. Since you asked, I'll give you my take on a few things.

Metal Blade (catching)
The 3/3 5/5 damage split makes me think that this item had some kind of balance issue during development. We know that Mega Man was receiving balance changes up through the beta that some people got to play, when dSmash was multi-hit. I'm guessing that MB was rebalanced late in development, resulting in the damage split and ease of catching (it is the easiest item to catch by a considerable margin IMO). Regardless of all that, the fact that you can catch it with an ATTACK greatly reduces its utility for two reasons. First, someone who knows the MU will be very aggressive due to the priority issue I mentioned in my other post, so often they will get a catch completely by accident. Even if they don't, it's weak enough that they can still cancel it out. Second, MB is our primary combo tool, but this mechanic interrupts what should otherwise be good setups. Mind games like empty hop to bait a grab -> JC MB -> grab/bAir are some of our best mixups, but nAir OoS is a powerful defensive option for many characters that completely reverses our attack and doesn't require them to correctly guess the mixup. Likewise, diagonal MB as an anti-air could potentially be a POWERFUL setup into Mega Buster against a good portion of the cast...if it could hit anyone that isn't just jumping at us doing absolutely nothing. Although it's annoying, I understand why pellets have no priority. It would be too much if they were transcendent. Metal Blade, however, is an item that is very slow to come out and pick up. It shouldn't be destroyed/caught by every hitbox in the game, including jabs (even ours). Likewise, attacking and catching should be distinct actions that the other player chooses between. If I had my way, grab/airdodge would be the command to catch an item. airdodging would work like it does now, but a standing grab would have a bigger catch box to compensate. It just makes more sense.

Leaf Shield
I'm actually not in the "leaf shield = trash" camp, although I find it underwhelming despite using it more than most Mega players I've seen. It has its uses, primarily for recovery. Reversing it is a nice landing option, and pulling one out when recovering high offstage gives you the choice between a jump/airdodge with a hurtbox or a big fat projectile to interfere with an opponent trying to intercept you. In neutral it's a pretty poor move. If you can land a grab with it at higher percents, you can get a lot of damage off, but it's a big IF. It is useful in a few matches like Pikachu, Link, etc, where you can easily pull it out while avoiding projectiles and throw it to clear the field and gain a slight advantage. There is some unreliable utility with edge guarding and simply empty hopping to tag airborne opponents with it. Despite reliability issues, using those mixups can help condition opponents and create better mixup opportunities down the road. I've found that Leaf Shield is an excellent litmus test to figure out whether your opponent knows the Mega Man MU or not right at the beginning of a set. If they know how to poke it with tilts, aerials, pivot grabs, etc, then you know they fight a Mega Man often back home and you have to play a bit safer.

Crash Bomb
It's kind of a bad joke. At mid level play it's fine, I guess. Lots of people just let themselves blow up for no good reason at all. Like the leaf shield, you can tell instantly when someone knows the MU based on what they do when they get stuck with one of these (retreat and shield or dodge the explosion). I land it very often when I am recovering offstage. Opponents will usually let it stick since they are trying to set up some kind of edge guard. Throwing one out at a respawning opponent is an excellent way to avoid getting cornered into a disadvantage state. In neutral though...it's kind of gross. Speed comparable to a smash, underwhelming damage, you can shield in the middle of it up to 40%, and worst of all, we are damaged by the explosion whether it is stuck to us or the opponent, greatly diminishing its already limited combo utility. Look at all the reward the Links get from bomb->fAir, or bomb->nAir. That's how Crash Bomb should work. The opponent has three seconds to respond after they've already been hit by it. Why is the reward so low? To add insult to injury, if they take the worst option and simply sit there in shield and eat a fully charged Mega Buster along with the explosion, it still doesn't break the shield. What is this move supposed to be? It also seems like something that may have been overtuned in development that got nerfed too severely.

Mega Buster
My favorite move to get punished for liking. It's Mega Man's signature move. This is our Super Jump Punch, our Spin Dash, our Shoryuken. Why is it so bad? I admit that it's possible to use it in neutral with a VERY big read, but the reward for somehow landing it is absolutely pitiful. Unless you trick someone with a pivot smash near the ledge or something, you shouldn't be killing with it at all, and reading/punishing a ledge option isn't something you need fSmash for anyway. We all know the weaknesses - poor damage, insane startup/cooldown, insulting range. How many times have you thrown it to catch a landing, and it just DISAPPEARS right before it hits? The thing that really kills me about this move is that it theoretically fills a huge gap in our kit - it is our only transcendent projectile. It it were safe on shield when spaced correctly (uncharged), or at least had a little more range and speed, we could use it as an answer to opponents who recklessly attack through everything else without a second thought. As it now though, it's basically useless, and to add insult to injury, Bayonetta and Corrin have stronger, non-reflectable versions. This move needs to be completely reworked. My dream buff would be to allow us to store the charge like in the games. The tradeoff is that you lose pellets until you throw it.

I think Mega Man has the makings of a high, perhaps even top tier zoning character, but he just has too many broken/nonfunctional moves to compete with a character that is "whole".

Boo hoo my tools have counterplay.

Helpful and insightful.

Slow pummel is a good thing because it unstales moves? Do your opponents generally just put down the controller until you finish the pummel or something? You can't even safely get a single pummel until 50%. Mega's stale move refresh through pummeling is no better than anyone else's.

Winning MUs on Cloud, Diddy, Sonic, Bayo?! Now who's playing a different game? We arguably go even with Ryu. You're right about Villager though. We are actually his worst MU, and he's the only character I'd say we annihilate. Who else do you think we beat so badly? Please don't say Luigi. I'm tired of explaining how attack priority works.

Don't be one of those guys who just takes everything top players say as gospel. Get good and figure out the mechanics and MUs for yourself. I've beaten one of the top three Mega Man mains. I'm totally outclassed in technical skill and control, but it was possible to win because I knew how to exploit Mega's weaknesses and bait out his unsafe stuff. It's just a matter of time before more skilled players gain that same understanding, then the party's over.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Guys.

Please, let's start the Flame Wars in the Social Thread or somewhere else, this one is supposed to be about the METAL BLADE, not about what we would like Mega Man's moveset to be like. I mean seriously, our moves are the way they are, and that's about it. There is no use in complaining ! Not to mention that we have a 1.1.6 coming this month... (tl,dr; : go to the buff/nerf thread)

And yes Sleek Media , we do have a good Bayo MU. Ryu is more even than positive (he does hit hard), but even while has all the crazy stuff, Witch Heel gets stopped by lemons and we can ALWAYS shield the Atfer Burner Kick if she goes for it. And worst part is that if she goes in the air, she becomes vulnerable to FSmash.

Oh, and about FSmash : it isn't supposed to be Mario's, so comparing their speed is useless. Our's main point is it's Charge buff. I seriously wonder why people NEVER want to do it : If you ever started charging it, then you are better off going all the way. It's size and distance increase is just significant enough IMO. Using it to catch landings can stop your opponent in his tracks, since he'll have to land ASAP or no shielding the FSmash. And yes, this is risky agains refnecters, counters and absorbers.

ANYWAY, GO SOMEWHERE ELSE IF YOU WANT TO START A FLAMING ARGUMENT. WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT LIKE ADULTS DAMMIT (althrough some adults just want to stay babies...)
Not to mention, there are ALWAYS ways to cool down discussions... Taking it too seriously can be heavily detrimental. For yourself and everyone who participates to it.

P.S. : I was mainly thinking of the regular Mega Buster, not the Charge Shot, but hey... Anyway, once again, DO NOT DISS THE LEMONADE. THE THING KILLS YOSHI, WOULD HE EVER BE FOOLISH ENOUGH TO WASTE HIS SECOND JUMP
...I had to XD