I was reading this a while back and wanted to chime in but I felt it was better to wait a while. Plus it took a while to write this up xD I hope you guys at least take the time to listen and consider it.
Disclaimer: even though I've never played the upper ranks of the best players in the world(not many do!), I am often playing again really good players and have tested these things against them. I don't only play FG scrubs. I usually play after midnight EST and I find that the caliber of player is redonkulously higher late at night. All the kiddies are off to bed and often when I play someone in another country they're pretty tough. It's more rare for me to play a total noob than a competent to high level player. I've run into a few big names in FG. Wifi, I know, but if I can do this stuff on wifi then it can only be better playing offline where I won't be dealing with input lag.
I won't be quoting each post as that would take too long. I will simply take snippets of what other people said and color them red.
There will be a video at the bottom that is a compilation of clips that demonstrates many of the things I talk about.
redcometchar
He cant do anything safely without metalblade, and cant dish out real punishes without it. Metalblade spawn is pretty reactable at 43 frames so if he isnt at full screen i can pretty much dash attack him and take metalblade every time.
// Pellets and LS will always be safe, with or without MB. If your opponent is holding a MB there is much more that they can't do.
When spawning MB, standing still and throwing it at your feet is the worst possible option. Jumping before throwing and mixing up where you throw it is key.
Even with metalblade, you can pretty much always anti air megamans jumps on reaction. Even if you get hit by an instant aerial, they are so laggy and dont auto cancel so you can literally take the hit and punish him for it.
// You can anti air a lot of characters on reaction. MM's short hop aerials don't auto cancel but full jumps do and you can still hit with them on the way up. Taking a proper hit from a Bair will send you flying, out of range of a punish. Plus there's spacing, if a MM isn't spacing well you can punish easily.
But I think maybe you're thinking of MM like other characters. The way smash has always played is that to get combos you need to approach with aerials and string things together by chasing after that first hit. For just about every character, that is the right way to play them. But MM is different. You need to use his projectiles to apply pressure and start stuff, not his aerials.
The only thing you ever need to worry about is metal blade throws and drops. If megaman is holding metalblade all you have to do is throw out constant hitboxes and beat it out when it comes in.
// If the opponent is throwing out constant hitboxes to try and counter the MB, then that means they are playing less defensively. It is an opportunity to not use MB as much and either get them to stop or find a way to punish it. But still, that's not exactly true. If I think you are doing that I would start using LS more. Either have it up to approach for a zdrop, or throw it out for a hit(usually through your hitbox). Or just wait for an opening to throw the MB such as a landing between attacks.
redcometchar
Air shooter isnt that high of a reward. Falling air shooter gives you what, another air shooter or back air? Thats trash tier compared to what the rest of the cast gets off of a falling aerial, espcially an unsafe one.
// Uair is one of MM's highest dmg output moves. And again, you are comparing him to the rest of the cast. He will usually come up short if you do that because he's so different.
It beats counters and aerials.
It can kill after a Rush bounce. It can do that with a certain setup at 0% but it's hard to land. However at high % it's very easy to catch someone off guard and fly them to the moon.
It's easy to throw it out fast so you can chase your opponent in the air with it. It forces them to abandon anything else they planned on doing to avoid it. If you react correctly they are in a better position to follow up/punish.
They can be conditioned to watch out for Uairs so much, that they become easy to MB on landing into follow up. Especially if they waste their jump trying to avoid it.
If the opponent is in the air high enough, which is usually the only time it should be used, it's extremely safe. It doesn't take long to land and act, while they basically can't approach without taking some damage or being pushed upwards. It works well for characters like ZSS, Sonic, Took Link, Greninja, who like to use their diving Dairs. It kills their downward momentum and makes them slowly fall. Punish becomes easy and they will think twice about using it all the time.
Back air doesnt kill that early and its unsafe.
// It most certainly does kill early. Early enough. Plenty of times I've killed with it below 100%. DI, rage, stage placement matters of course. Once they get above 100% it becomes much more likely to kill.
Like pretty much everything else, it's safe if used correctly. You shouldn't be poking or blindly short hop approaching with it. It should be used mostly for opponents who are already in the air or as a follow up to a projectile. MB being the best option. Although if they get stuck with a CB and are blocking the explosion, a simultaneous short hopped bair to the upper body along with the explosion can poke through the shield or at drain it quite a bit.
It's a great ledge guarding tool. The final hit can drag them down and catch them off guard so that a follow up like Dair can spike them to death. If you grab the ledge and they are trying to get back on, fast falling jumping bair can keep them off melee-style.
It's multihit so I believe it can stuff a power shield attempt?? Not sure on that. But it can have the benefits of a multihit, like stopping Ryu's counter.
It can be full hop RAR'd to auto cancel and apply air pressure.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bMs7PeX4K8 around 4 mins
It's a disjoint right? So if spaced correctly can beat out some other aerials. It's quick too, so in some exchanges you will hit first and at the very least trade instead of taking a clean hit.
Pellets loose to every hitbox in the game and at some ranges are unsafe on hit.
// Lose doesn't seem like the correct term. It might be more accurate to say they can't beat any projectile, in that they will never plow through. But they will negate many hitboxes and that's all they really need to do. If you think of them in that way and don't try to go around beating stuff with them, you will do better overall.
They can stop multihit moves like Clouds Fsmash. If the pellet clanks* with the first hit, the move stops.
Like everything else in the game you avoid the unsafe ranges whenever possible. There are movement options to make it more safe as well.
It's a good idea to shoot then full hop to mix it up. If they are going to simply plow through the pellets to hit you, changing where you will be when they get in range will help. If you're always short hopping there's only one place you can be and it's hard to change your trajectory if you see them coming in.
*I think I'm using clank in the correct way.
Think.
Metalblade is literally megamans only game plan. Only way to catch rolls, only good ranged projectile, only good shield pressure tool, only good punish tool, only oos option etc, etc, etc.
// No.
It's the best tool to catch rolls when they are mid range away, yes. Up close you have grab, LS grab, pellet, dtilt, Usmash. You didn't say safe so I'm not thinking about safety. Just options. If an option is perfectly executed everything is safe. Which is my gameplan. Long range, well who does have a good option for that?
LS goes through everything. EVERYTHING. I'm not aware of anything it can't penetrate except counters(anyone correct me if I'm wrong). Plus it has 2 hits. It can clank with an aerial on the first hit, then land a hit on the second(or not hit on the second, it's not exactly consistent). It can hit on power sheild or if they drop shield after the first hit. It can hit someone hanging on the ledge if they don't have invincibility frames active.That makes it a pretty good projectile. It's startup and throw lag can be mitigated with spacing and smarts.
Everything ranged is only decent at shield pressure, but you can throw them out from afar and often so I feel it balances out. CB is good to mix in with the correct spacing. It can be good when the shield has already been whittled away exposing their head. You can attach a CB even while they are shielding, then keep on pressuring. All of these things might not be what the usual character calls shield pressure but since MM is a ranged character it's what he should be using to apply pressure in general.
I've never used MB specifically for ongoing shield pressure. Usually it's just a single blade followed up by something else. I don't usually go for shield pressure at all. It doesn't fit MM's style like it does other characters, imo. I'm always moving and always reacting to my opponents movements. Constant MB's or aggressive shield pressure doesn't fit in with that.
I suppose it is the only good ranged punish tool. That is very situational. It depends on the placement what tool you would use to punish.
OOS option, well I can't really speak to that. I don't really think about OOS. I just play and likely do certain things OOS without knowing that's what I'm doing. In the video at the bottom you will see a few Bairs out of sheild that I would argue may have been impossible to avoid.
As for the etc, etc, etc ... insufficient data to provide a response xD
That wouldn't really bother me if metalblade didnt loose to every hitbox in the game, disapear randomly and be really easy to catch. On top of that lets not forger he has to respawn it after every use.
// It does lose to more than I would like to see, but that doesn't diminish it's usefulness. It has so many other things it excels at, it can't be good at everything. Being caught/disappearing is the worst of it, but what can ya do? At least it can go through Links shield, how many projectiles can do that?
I've never really been put out by having to respawn it after every use. Most of time I B throw it and not item throw it, so I don't want it in my handsat all times. It allows me to choose when I lob it in any direction or maybe fake them out with a throw down to grab it. That's not so much a downside as a logical necessity. Even Sheik has to take time to gather needles(yes that's quicker).
I dont see what im missing. Even up tilt and down tilt arent that good.
// Oh come on now. Up tilt is one his best moves. Perfect shield > utilt is godly. It can anti air. There is more to a move than it's end lag. Down tilt is good for movement/mixup/chasing at low %. It's a decent ledge guard option but I abandoned that.
megamang
Everyones throws stop working at higher percentages.
Megaman gets well above average damage per grab. 3% pummel is sick, and its slow enough to unstale his moves! Which is great because you want fresh bair/uair to get dem kills. If you get a grab with leaf shield up, thats another stack of damage. This is something I wanted to bring up in a metagame thread or something, but Megamans should start using more throws besides dthrow. Uthrow is the same damn thing for 50% more damage. Bthrow does a lot of damage, and fthrow is pretty good for a fthrow with solid damage and unreactable DI mixups on bthrow.
// I tend to favor Bthrow outside of Dthrow combos and getting them off stage. Purely for the damage since it can be a struggle to rack up damage fast. Even when it gets stale it still does decent damage. LS>grab is something I do a lot. It really is the best use of LS. Catching landings is so easy with the LS up.
Speaking of which, Uair is pretty damn safe on shield for its possible reward. Floating backwards or a crossup makes it totally safe.
// I don't think it really is "safe". I suppose if you are talking about times when you know you can catch them in shield, but that's the problem. I see far too many people approaching with the intention to Uair and that is so unsafe. It's really not something that should be used often on grounded opponents in neutral. There are better options on the ground to get them in the air where the move is safer. You might land a few here and there but that doesn't make it safe.
It can do plenty of damage on a shield, sometimes poke, better on taller character, but to approach with it is unsafe.
And you shouldn't chuck your MB unless you know its going to hit.
// Not exactly. I will often throw stuff out constantly to give them something to deal with. If you always wait until you can get a confirmed hit you are letting them control the pace. If they have to constantly dodge, block or jump around projectiles it makes them easier to predict. You are boxing them in by throwing projectiles in their preferred airspace. MB being one of the best projectiles for this strategy. But that's probably more of a preference/style thing so not like it's the only way to play MM. Just how I play him.
Also,you can shoot crash bombers while holding a metal blade. Dank!
// This and LS while holding blade can be great for mix up. I think each projectile works best when they are all used. Since they have different properties it makes it harder to counter MMs playstyle. If you use just pellets most of the time or just MB, it becomes easy to read. Condition them then mix it up.
redcometchar
Megamans only combo throw is down. Up forward and back combo into nothing. At this point in not actually sure we play the same game. You are talking about Smash for wii u right?
// Yet another way MMs playstyle is different from other chars. I don't see it as a weakness. Just something he can't do.
Up air is not safe on shield man! It's not! Its like -8 on big characters! on kirby its like -12! that's not safe at all! And you dont get jack off it!
// Well, if it does hit it deals damage and can be followed up with another one in some cases racking up close to 40% if you get all the hits. But yeah, I don't think it qualifies as safe. What makes it seem safer is that it can poke shields and if they drop too early they will still get hit since it lingers a bit.
Maybe someone should have defined safe so everybody is on the same page. I believe to qualify as safe it would need to have no lag at all allowing you to avoid a punish. Represented by +frame advantage? By that definition very few of his moves are safe but they can still be done in a safe way to limit being punished.
You never can be really sure if your metalblade is going to hit so this isnt a consistent answer.
// In some cases you can or least suffer no consequence if it misses. Like diagonal down throw near the ledge or as they are landing without a double jump left.
Leaf shield is trash!
// Naw. It's all about when/how you use it. It has it's uses and it really depends on the MU and their playstyle.
Crash bomb also sucks!
// Naw. Just like LS it has it's uses. When you get launched way off stage and fire a CB towards the stage before your double jump, that can get you a kill once in a blue moon. Plus you are safe to throw it out. Often they will chase you not expecting anything so it sticks to them as they run off stage, but they are offstage so they can't simply block it. I've had it stage spike or explode them, leaving them open for a Dair spike kill. If they decide to block it, congrats you just prevented them from coming after you offstage giving you a bit of breathing room. That's kinda how I feel about it. Everyone says you can just block it or block the explosion, air dodge it, but that's the point. They will have to do something to deal with it and that takes them off of their gameplan. Even if only for a moment.
Another thing about CB is that at mid-long range it allows you to fire something at them quicker. Like, if you spam MB it has to vanish before you can throw another one and the end lag allows you to act before it vanishes. If you tried another MB right away you will do the animation and throw nothing. So you stagger them by throwing a CB allowing you to put more pressure and have 2 projectiles out at once. By the time CB end lag is done, you can throw a MB. Mix in LS and pellets and you can apply steady, varying pressure. All depends on spacing and the situation, as always.
diamond octobot
Leaf Shield cannot be considered as trash when it leads to free grabs.
// This is why it shines. You can stand there with LS up and opponent comes in to attack. You block and the LS will interrupt their attack and in most situations you grab them without fail. Positioning is important and some quick starting moves can be spammed to hit you instead. Watching a landing and running in for a shield grab is almost guaranteed as well. The LS will stun them or the shield will block the landing attack, leaving them open for a grab.
sleek media
Here's the deal. Mega Man has possibly the worst neutral in the game in terms of priority, and that MATTERS. Pellets, Crash Bomb, Metal Blade, and even THROWN LEAF SHIELD can all be punched through as if they aren't even there, and once an opponent learns the MU and figures out how to do that, your zoning neutral is sunk and you're forced to rely on his trash tier mixups.
// But them punching through it means they are not punching MM, so as long as you are spacing it right that doesn't really mean anything. You are making them work while staying safe. If they aggressively approach then you wouldn't try and stop them with projectiles.
You will get nowhere with crazy glide tosses or unreliable z-drop combos. You need to keep the neutral from completely falling apart, and knowing what makes it fall apart is the first step.
// This is true. These things should only be done when a clear opportunity presents itself. It's not something to be pursued. The only time I really boost blade(I like that name better) is when I launch my opponent and want to surprise them by closing the gap. I might do it at the start of a match or when there is distance as a mixup surprise, but that's it. I can only do the up throw one.
As for his other problems, Mega Man's smash attacks might as well not even exist, with only the barely-functional uSmash seeing use, and even that is horrible. Low power/damage, unable to tag opponents standing up on the ledge or on BF platforms because of the dead frames and alternating hitbox size, and even up throwing aerial opponents out on the first hit randomly puts it on the same level as Duck Hunt's garbage smashes, and that's our best smash. Shield demolishes Mega Man's game plan. What are you going to do, drop in and z-drop a metal blade? Empty hop in for a grab? It's so easy to bait Mega Man players into unsafe approaches like this, and if Mega falls behind in stock or percent, many characters can quickly run away with the game through simple bait-and-punish play. Recovery is average at best...it's just Sonic's but without the hurt box, invincibility, ability to combo, or ability to laglessly come down with an auto cancelled aerial. Sometimes it can save an opponent too if you're not careful. At least it's better than Duck Hunt's.
// This is the only thing I see as a problem. I do wish his smash attacks weren't so laggy. It's one of the biggest things that set him apart from the rest of the cast. For many chars that's their best kill moves and they are safe.
Dsmash is something I avoid like the plague. It does have it's uses in hard read but at high level play those opportunities don't happen often and it's not worth the risk if you miss.
I get situational use out of Fsmash. Some match ups it's very effective like Bayo and Little Mac cause they like to approach wide open at times, so they are more likely to get hit with one in neutral. Other than that it's just a few pivot Fsmashes and landing reads. Oh and some ledge guarding, although it rarely hits, but it can be safe.
I get the most mileage out of Usmash. It's a good close range punish move, it has a janky hitbox in the front so it can catch people off guard, it's good for juggling at low % until they figure out to jump. It's gonna suck if you miss but at least there will be times when they are not in a good position to punish it. It's not something that should be thrown out in neutral or if you are not fairly certain it will land. It can catch some aerials like Links Dair. It has decent kill power at higher %. It can catch some ledge getup options.
Shield is best dealt with by using spaced pellets. Let them sit in shield while I safely chip away at it. LS grabs will force them out of shield, usually into a roll.
Anybody can be baited into unsafe approaches. A good player knows that and avoids taking the bait. That's not a valid criticism to MM. He has ranged options to pressure the shield.
His recovery is top notch when using proper mix up. He has spike protection. If someone is offstage trying to chase you, using Rush can bounce them and screw up their plan. MM gets his double jump back. I've recovered from hell on several occasions, sometimes catching my opponents taunting too early and coming back to kill them. You can Rush bounce to snap the ledge or land on the stage for maximum mix up.
The best part of his recovery is that he can use projectiles to safely come back. When you get launched far you always want to throw a CB or MB either onstage to hit them or attach it to the stage right at the ledge. That will give them something to deal with. Then as you double jump towards the stage throw an upwards MB or Uair to cover the ledge as you get near. Then either grab ledge or UpB. Nairs can work too if you have the space for it. You can condition them to expect the projectile and be more cautious with ledge guarding you.
Rush does indeed combo. If Rush is out and they bounce on it, you can follow up with an Uair. If Rush is out and they are below you about to bounce on him, you can falling Uair which catches them on the bounce up, then you bounce and follow up with another Uair. Plus this kind of trap can kill off the top and high % or if they are caught off guard and jump. Even top players can get caught with this. It's harder when they realize to just not press anything, but even still.
Also, you can fast fall into Rush with an aerial and bounce to cancel lag. I do this a lot with Fair/Dair and it works well when done correctly.
Plus Rush has great on stage potential. MM can escape combos/juggles. It can be used to dodge incoming attacks. A few times I had no other options but to try and Rush out of danger and it works because it comes out so fast. If you use it often you start to get good at aerial play. It's hard at first and requires good reaction time and mixups.
Overall I'd say it's a great recovery/upB.
redcomitchar
Crash bomb
Two things. 1 crash bomb isnt safe at any range other than full screen. Its not fast, has tons of endlag, and has 0 stun. This means that the only time crash bomb is viable is in a tech chase situation. At any other time, the crash bomb can either a) be avoided on reaction by snails, or b) be punished on reaction by slugs. Also if you are hit by crash bomb, you can grab the ledge and remove the mixup, or in theory, if they powershield the crasbomb explosion they could use it as a safe approach.
// At less than long range you can short hop away and turn around shoot it. That makes it a little safer in any situation where your opponent is not ready to act. You don't shoot it willy nilly in neutral(I'm sensing a theme). You shoot it when your opponent is going to be dealing with something else to increase the chances that it lands and reduce the chances of punish.
Again, avoiding it and grabbing the ledge to negate it causes them to do something other than their game plan. You use that time to try and gain an advantage.
Leaf shield
Baisically the same except worse, because in order to use it in a tech chase senario you would need to already have activated it. And lets not forget how it removes most of your options and is pretty much always punishible. And again, like with megamans buster or any other projectile, literally just short hop nair. It will beat the projectile and then hit megaman. Every time. And it doesnt garuntee grabs btw.
// LS active while staying grounded and shielding is no less punishable then flat out shielding. Except you have the benefit of having a hitbox around you.
You can't punch a thrown LS to death unless maybe you have a multihit move. If they do Nair the LS, it will keep on traveling and have a second hitbox hot on it's tail. If they manage to avoid that, well you shouldn't be anywhere near them at this point otherwise you used the move wrong. Meanwhile the LS will continue on to the end of it's flight path with a few missing leaves.
Using the word guarantee is probably wrong. No, it's not always guaranteed but it's very helpful in getting grabs on both airborne and grounded opponents. They can catch on so it's important to mix it up. In certain situations it will be a guaranteed grab, though. Most of all in the same situation that an incoming aerial would be a guaranteed shield grab.
Metal blade catchable
The points being brought up are truly silver linings to mushroom clouds. "Its good the move is bad because that way they cant use it against you"? Really, come on guys. And for the record, megaman doesnt have a great way to punish metalblade because he doesnt have good aerials. Lemons arent fast enough to punish it.
// Well, it's a valid point. With it being so easy to catch that means it will end up in the opponents hands quite often. It being not so useful to them is a plus.
MM can certainly punish it with anything, except Uair I think. You will have just as much ability to grab it with an aerial as everyone else. In that case you would do more full hop aerials to avoid landing lag. And pellets are so fast enough to block it. That is by far the most common way it gets negated when in the hands of my opponent. They can basically do 3 things. Throw it horizontal, throw it vertical, or zdrop it. If you space them properly with pellets there is pretty much no way they can hit you with it. They usually jump and try to zdrop it which is the easiest to punish them directly for. Usually if they throw it horizontal the blade gets negated and it's back to neutral.
Jump airdodges will catch it too. If they have it they will usually look to do something with it sooner rather than later as they know their A moves are gone. It's very easy to negate or simply grab it back.
Well my friend, aerials don't go into rebound and their hitboxes don't disapear after interacting with lemons. I will also post test footage of this. And a dear friend of mine has some words to say about people like yourself.
// I'm not too familiar with this rebound mechanic but I think I've seen it before. MM's arm flies back. This doesn't happen every time. Most of the times I'm throwing out pellets nothing happens when my pellets interact. Maybe you have to be on the ground for that to happen? I spend most of my time in the air, so maybe that's it.
Thing about the hitbox disappearing, it doesn't matter. It did it's job. Hopefully it negated the other attack.
Cooldown on lemon is 29 frames. making your last fired pellet -19 on hit up close, -25 on hit at mid range and -27 on hit at max range.
There we go. Now throw in their terrible priority and terrible range and we have a bad projectile.
// I don't remember if this is the corrected frame data or not, but it just doesn't seem accurate. Most of the time I'm able to get right in their face, nair, and hop back/forward to avoid a shield grab. It depends on the timing, it is possible to be grabbed, but with MM's airspeed and the right momentum they won't have time to properly react to it unless you are being predictable.
At longest range there is no way that is getting punished. It just doesn't happen to me unless they are using a charging move that is already on it's way and plows through the pellet. Stuff like Wario's bike. But even then with the correct spacing and movement you will be able to move out of the way to not get punished.
The range is actually pretty nice once you get used to it. It allows you to choose close range or long range based on the situation. It's far enough away to be out of range of most standard, non-projectile/non-movement attacks.
Well what im trying to get at is they are punishable on hit, wich makes them high risk. Also they dont give much reward, so high risk, low reward. On top of that they arent a good defensive tool since they cant contest hitboxes.
// I would consider them variable risk, variable reward. It depends entirely on the MU and the opponents playstyle. There is a way to use pellets here and there while always staying safe. Pivot pellets are pretty much the cornerstone of that. Point blank nairs are always viable if your reactions are on point, with a bit of luck at times heh
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nWs8jeLmU 4:32 One pellet stops his Fsmash. A few seconds later he jumps in with a Fair, it clanks with a standing pellet I fired before he got close to me, he gets locked into hit stun for a few frames while I'm able jump over his hitbox and Nair him in the face. Then I keep chasing while keeping my spacing, he tries to Nair my approach but my pellet interacts with that although it doens't seem to stun him, but I'm safely out of range and I keep on pressuring him eventually landing another Nair. A few moves later he get's footstooled. I felt pretty safe throughout this whole exchange.
I uploaded some videos last night of me playing against the top player of my region using Cloud(he's not a Cloud main) if you feel the Cloud in that clip was inferior. Although that doesn't really change much.
Id love to post a video right now, but i have spent a couple hours now trying to get my elgato to function so im a littled triggered. Ill do my best to describe the situations of megaman getting punished for hitting pellets. Ryu can tatsu after getting hit at mid range and megaman cant avoid it including shooting more pellets because it will just go through the pellets. Pit can do the same with close range pellets as well. And a bunch of characters can dash attack megaman for it.
Greninja can side b all ranges after hit, shiek can bouncing fish, and some characters can start combos after pivot tilts at mid range and jab at close range, all after being hit.
// You can send me replays and I can record them if you want. If you care at this point.
I have a video somewhere of a standing Ryu eating one pellet, using Tatsu, me retreat pelleting so the next pellet is eaten by Tatsu, and when he's just about to kick me in the face he gets Nair sweetspotted. I also would have been safe if I did a full hop after he Tatsu'd. I've had similar experiences with bouncing fish, although it's much harder to sweetspot that on the fly cause it's so fast.
For your assertion to be true, MM would have to be standing in the same spot he fired the pellet in. Or at least standing still for a bit. When I pellet and I'm really feeling it that will never be the case. I'm always moving. Jumping on landing of every single pellet is a key aspect to this strategy. Without it pellets are considerably less safe. Full hop after standing pellet is key as well, for mixing up your escape.
Also, I've been neglecting to mention the biggest reason pellets can be safe. Fast falling. I can recall what a huge difference there was when I finally mastered fast falling all pellets all the time. When I do a full hop they will assume I'm wide open but then I fast fall and pellet them in the face stopping them in their tracks. Then I jump on landing and I'm out of range for a punish. I can't do repeated shff pellets for long but I don't feel a need to do that. I just work with what I can do. It's the biggest mixup for pellets and along with alternating short hops and full hops, it really makes them shine.
sleek media
Saying stuff like we beat Luigi, or we beat Bayonetta because pellets shut their approaches down (?!) is demonstrably wrong
// In the case of Bayonetta, that is the case. Moreso for ground approaches. Standing pellets stuff anything she tries to approach with, minus shield. She would then start doing more aerial approaches and then things change. But with the right mixup and spacing it can very hard for her to get in.
I thought I had a video of a Bayo match uploaded but I guess not. With pre-nerf Bayo I would get combo'd to 50% at the start of each stock without fail. This was someone with serious air combo skill and I managed to Rush escape them after that and use spacing and patience to keep her out and win the match.
Luigi is similar but his tornado is not difficult to use well in neutral and pellets won't stop that. Plus nair. It does negate his fireball game for the most part which is a huge plus. I would have to agree that the video against Boss was a bad example.
megamang
Dthrow fair is inferior. You are setting yourself up for what you described, because you are using an option that relies on MU knowledge being lacking. If you do a rising bair you can finish it before you land.
// You can finish a Fair before you land as well. That's why full hop Fair to Uair works, the timing is really tight so bair is probably easier to auto cancel. I've always used Dthrow > Fair but I have no specific reason. It's true that it doesn't always land and I've never bothered to switch to Bair. The way I see it I Bair enough and Fair not quite as much, so I'll use that instead. Partly to avoid making Bair stale and....habit xD
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So that's my take on this whole discussion. I encourage people to watch my videos to see how I use certain moves. It's one thing to give a few examples but another to see whole matches. That's the only way to understand my point of view and my playstyle. Which, imo, is on par with Kamemushi. I just need more top level exp. I have 100's of videos although the last few months are the only worth while ones.
There will be plenty of times I do unsafe moves. It's part bad choice and part experimentation. In my early MM days I swore off LS as much as I did Dsmash. I hated the move. I thought it was pointless and ignored it. But as time went on and I read some things on the LS thread, I decided to give it a chance. I find that it takes a lot of experimenting with MMs moves to truely understand how it interacts with other moves in various situations. If I never did fully test it to the limits I would be able to use as I do now. Using it when it shouldn't work is how you find out when it will work. I use it more on unfamiliar MU's or on high level players.
So right now I'm aware that my MM play isn't always flawless, I'm working towards it and I've been improving month by month. I never feel like my progress is getting stale. I've played MM about 95% of the time since picking him up around April of last year. I've dabbled in Ryu and Cloud. I have a few chars I play for fun; Luigi, Zelda, Bowser Jr, Sonic. But I think the key to reaching high levels of MM play is to main him with all your heart. Whenever I play as other chars I find it dulls my MM play. It's a completely different way of thinking about smash. He doesn't combo like Melee, with aerial true combos, close range tech chasing and safe aerial attack shield pressure. He's not meant to be an in your face, balls to the wall, chase you down character. It's all about strategy and mixup. Using his airspeed to weave in and out. Using Rush to escape up and play around in the air with rush bounces. Everything he has works different than a majority of the cast so it requires a lot of learning new things and approaching the game from a different angle.
Also, by only playing as MM all my MU experince is geared for MM. That is a huge bonus.
