The Metalblade Fan Club: Unutilized Shield Pressure / Potential Break Setup

[Meistermayo]

1. Rar (run towards your opponent, turn around, jump backwards)
2. Zdrop mb, Landing Uair, recatching mb (you may be able to let mb hit a few times
3. Immediately sh zdrop mb
4. Pick your poison: bair, uair, djump dair, usmash, utilt, dsmash(maybe?)

I do not know how easy it is to get shield grabbed out of landing uair, it seems kinda variable. Can someone possibly look at the frame data to see if our frame 1 zdrop added to our jumpsquat beats throws?

This setup could potentially be huge. If our execution is on point, we could also regrab the mb after zdropping into a uair, essentially giving us a frame 1 blockstring into our slower uair. We could potentially

1. Rar zdrop ( one 5% hit on shield)
2. Uair regrab (land)

Repeat!

Will zdrop mb truly create this type of blockstring? Can someone run these numbers?

 

[redcometchar]

Projectile shield stun formula dmg/3.5+2
Metal blade has 4 frames shield stun when z dropped.
Up air, 3 frames shield stun on all hits.
first hit up air on frame 11
Up air has 19 frames landing lag
perfect up air on sheik hits 5 times on a full shield
Up air rehit rate is 3 for first 3 hits and 5 for the next two
projectiles dont cause hitlag so we dont have to worry about that

Now that we have that data let me describe the scenario. Lets assume one hit of metalblade, and we catch it with up air and everything is perfect. We will call frame one the frame when metal blade hits shield and we will say that we catch it the first possible frame because we are gods. Spacing the up air all depends on where you start the up air and where you fast fall so im gonna pretend we dont need a fastfall because for this it doesnt matter. Also of course you must be facing away for the metal blade to hit after z drop.


Format: Frame number / Megaman Action / Megaman status / Sheik status / active projectile status

1 / nothing / wait (aerial) / Shield hit (metalblade) Shieldstun (1) / Metalblade hit
2 / Up air / start up air (1) (catch metal blade) / Shieldstun (2) / Metalblade grabbed
3 / nothing / up air (2) / Shieldstun (3) / nothing
4 / nothing / up air (3) / Shieldstun (4) / nothing
5 / nothing / up air (4) / Wait (shield) / nothing
6 / nothing / up air (5) / Wait (shield) / nothing
7 / nothing / up air (6) / Wait (shield) / nothing
8 / nothing / up air (7) / Wait (shield) / nothing
9 / nothing / up air (8) / Wait (shield) / nothing
10 / nothing / up air (9) / Wait (shield) / nothing
11 / nothing / up air (10) / Wait (shield) / nothing
12 / nothing / up air (11) / Shield hit (up air) Shieldstun (1) / up air active (11) hit (1)
13 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (1) / Shieldstun (2) / up air active (12)
14 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (2) / Shieldstun (3) / up air active (13)
15 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (3) / Shield hit (up air) Shieldstun (1) / up air active (14) hit (2)
16 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (4) / Shieldstun (2) / up air active (15)
17 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (5) / Shieldstun (3) / up air active (16)
18 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (6) / Shield hit (up air) Shieldstun (1) / up air active (17) hit (3)
19 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (7) / Shieldstun (2) / up air active (18)
20 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (8) / Shieldstun (3) / up air active (19)
21 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (9) / Shield hit (up air) Shieldstun (1) / up air active (20) hit (4)
22 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (10) / Shieldstun (2) / up air active (21)
23 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (11) / Shieldstun (3) / up air active (22)
24 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (12) / Wait (shield) / up air active (23)
25 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (13) / Wait (shield) / up air active (24)
26 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (14) / Shield hit (up air) Shieldstun (1) / up air active (25) hit (5)
27 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (15) / Shieldstun (2) / up air no longer relevant
28 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (16) / Shieldstun (3) / nothing
29 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (17) / Wait (shield) / nothing
30 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (18) / Wait (shield) / nothing
31 / nothing / Landing lag (up air) (19) / Wait (shield) / nothing
32 / Jump / Jumpsquat (1) / Wait (shield) / nothing
33 / nothing / Jumpsquat (2) / Wait (shield) / nothing
34 / nothing / Jumpsquat (3) / Wait (shield) / nothing
35 / nothing / Jumpsquat (4) / Wait (shield) / nothing
36 / z drop / Aerial (wait) / Shield hit (metalblade) Shieldstun (1) / Metalblade active (1) hit (1)
?

So here's where things get misty. Metalblade hits 3 times when zdropped immideately after a short hop but i do not know what the refresh rate is. Regardless, We know its fast enough to lock the opponent in shield stun so im gonna guess 4.

37 / / start (1) / Shieldstun (2) / Metalblade active (2)
38 / nothing / (2) / Shieldstun (3) / Metalblade active (3)
39 / nothing / (3) / Shieldstun (4) / Metalblade active (4)

Honestly this is tedious and there isnt anypoint in continuing so Sheik is locked in shield for another 8 frames by metal blade, back air hits before then sheik gets shield broken.

So take-aways. This isnt a true block string because of the two 7 frame gaps.
But, Buuuuut, it is still a pretty good option, not as good as raw metal blade pressure but still good nonetheless. Also because you are holding metal blade you can cover rolls with jc metalblade toss.

 

[Meistermayo]

Ok sick, thanks a ton.

There is a way to space a zdrop mb so that you dont get shieldgrabbed, so maybe starting out with uair isnt the way to go.
You can also zGrab the mb off of the ground to try again. Perhaps if we jump in a circle it may not need to touch the ground.

So how much shield damage would the original setup end up doing (assuming the opponent has been conditioned to be punished for shieldgrabbing by walkback run usmash or is just stupid)

And how much shield damage would two zdropped mbs into dsmash usmash utilt or uair do?

 

[redcometchar]

The original setup would just break shield thanks to the decay left by the open frames. Shields have 42 percent health effectively, the metalblade would do about 20 and the up air about 13 leaving the remaining damage to the selected aerial of choice. I think back air is the best.

About raw metal blade pressure, max short hop height metalblade hits large shields, 4-5 times which is about 16- 20 frames shield stun. If you zdrop metal blade at height of short hop and then fast fall to the ground including hard landing lag times, you could be anywhere from +3 to +7 which means garunteed grab.

As far as repetitious metal blade stuff is concerned, you have to be careful with it because the metal blade has the tendency to disapear randomly. Smash corner did a pretty good video a while back on jc glide toss metal blade shield pressure thats worth checking out if you havent seen it.

Having said all that it might be possible to Short hop z drop metalblade, fast fall, land on the ground, catch the metalblade right after the fourth hit, (i think grounded item grab is like 4 frames?) then launch other shield pressure. That would leave you any where from -1 to +3 depending on starting opponent shield health and leave them with a maximum of 22 percent effective shield health. From there you could do jc glide toss to regrab or do another short hop z drop or something.

 

[Meistermayo]

How about this:

1. Landing zdrop
2. Sh (jump behind them) uair [fastfall]
3. Utilt

15+11+17 = 43.

Do you know if rolling will beat the link between uair and utilt or will the utilt catch the startup of the roll?

 

[Wreck33]

How about this:

1. Landing zdrop
2. Sh (jump behind them) uair [fastfall]
3. Utilt

15+11+17 = 43.

Do you know if rolling will beat the link between uair and utilt or will the utilt catch the startup of the roll?

I do this sometimes. 90% of the time they either release the shield and get hit by the FF Uair or they release and get hit by the Utilt. Always hope they keep holding shield for break though : )

 

[redcometchar]

How about this:

1. Landing zdrop
2. Sh (jump behind them) uair [fastfall]
3. Utilt

15+11+17 = 43.

Do you know if rolling will beat the link between uair and utilt or will the utilt catch the startup of the roll?

It isnt as good. That up air is going to be super unsafe, no matter the timing.

If the up air is early then the tornado wont get many hits on shield and you will land to late and it will be like -13 on shield.

If the up air is correctly timed the window between the first hit of up air and the zdrop will allow for an opening. You can fast fall frame 14 of your short hop, and fast falling down is goint to be like 6 frames so Thats 20 frames of startup, combine that with the 6 frames of your first landing zdrop and the 4 frames of hard landing lag along with the 4 frames of jumpsquat thats a 34 frame window, and landing zdrop will only stun for 16 frames.

Im telling ya, the best pressure is just, landing zdrop, shorthop recatch after 4th hit, landing zdrop-> repeat. The escape window is really tiny.
16 frames of stun from first drop
6 frames of lag to get to ground, four frames of hard landing lag.
6 frames of stun left, Jump squat is 4 frames
2 frames of stun left, catch on first possible frame

that means there will be a 10 frame escape window, but the thing is, megaman is in a neutral state and can drop metalblade early to mixup the timing.

Its almost identical to nair shine pressure.

 

[Wreck33]

Word, but thats offline, it works to up air online lol

 

[Meistermayo]

Its almost identical to nair shine pressure.

Wow. Thats something

 

[p1ay6ack]

dang this can be a breakthrough find. i would really like to see this in video format

 

[redcometchar]

So some more stuff i would like to add now that i have thought about it and labbed it a little more.

The default string really isnt that hard to escape. Because metalblade is a true blockstring, by mashing away, you wont be threatened by rolling out early and getting caught you will roll out when the gap presents itself and escape un-punished.

The counter play to this is to bait the roll and slightly delay your second metalblade drop. If you delay it 3 frames (2 for bayonetta) You can catch this mashed roll out and still pressure if they decide to stay in shield.

This technique will leave a 3 frame escape window before the zdrop and a 7 frame window after the zdrop before the next one.

You could say that this allows the opponent to spotdodge, but this is not the case. if you conitnue your pressure, it will automatically catch the spotdodge any you can start a footstool combo or something.

What it really leaves your opponent available to do is character specific invincible reversals, like ryu's dp oos.

This can be baited with shield, and because you can cancel shield with a jump, you dont nessisarly give up advantageous positioning.

On characters without invincible reversals, which are in the majority might i add, Their only choice is to escape in the second window.

This means they cant mash their escape option, and that they will be vulerable to cross ups and mixups on shield.

Here are a few.

-By adding in a dash before your jump you can cross up your opponents shield at the cost of only a few frames. This option is really good and should pretty much always be done.

-If you want you could always just get a garunteed grab after the zdrop, however, you have to be careful to not grab too early, because as of 1.1.0 you can no longer grab an opponent in shieldstun.

-Up smash comes out fairly quickly and is a good pressure finisher.

-Seting up traps before hand can remove the escape openings (Leaf shield and Crash bomb).

Also i forgot to mention that each 4 hit zdrop does 16 percent shield damage. Which means the third one will break shield.

 

[redcometchar]

Characters with invincible reversials that escape as described
Mario
Dr.Mario
G&W
Little Mac
Ryu
Samus

Everyone else cant mash out an invincible reversial.

Also one more thing (i know there is a lot here, but i want to cover it all)

You can cover rolls on reaction with jc glide toss or ditcit, if you mess up or just want to.

 

[Meistermayo]

You csnt grab opponents out of shieldstun? I often just plop a mb on someone and grab them before the blade hits the ground

 

[redcometchar]

You csnt grab opponents out of shieldstun? I often just plop a mb on someone and grab them before the blade hits the ground

They removed that a while back. When you grab people now like that they are already out of shieldstun. The grab is out for a few frames so its hard to notice.

Edit 1:Well your right I just tested it and you can. I could have swore i saw that the other day in some patch notes. ill find my source.

Edit 2: Here it is. This really ruins my credibiltiy. oh well. I double checked everything else. its pretty rock solid other that ditcit covering rolls. some roll behinds are too short to be covered but whatever.
http://www.ssbwiki.com/List_of_updates_(SSB4)/1.1.1_changelog

 

[Meistermayo]

Lemme just point out really quick, if you wanna fastfall while doing the zdrop repeatedly while backing up, you gotta let go of z really fast, like melee fox shorthop fast.

This is because holding z for too long activates smash 4s 10 frame buffer system, forcing you into a spotdodge once you land because you input shield+attack+down

 

[Meistermayo]

ok, after some super light labbing ive come up with a few shield break setups for crash bomb. all setups add up to 42 damage or more, but have not been tested on a direct shield. These are certainly never blockstrings, just soft followups.

(All setups begin with attatching a crash bomb)

1. Zdrop Mb (15), Up B, Dair (14), CrashBomb (8), Dair x 2 (24)=61%
2. --With mb--Uair(11), CrashBomb(8), Zdrop Mb (15), Usmash (15) = 49%
3. Zigma Mb (6), Usmash (15), CrashBomb(8), Utilt (17)=46%
4. zigma Mb (6), Dair (12), Crashbomb(8), Dsmash(17) = 43%
5. Zigma Mb (6), Uair(11), Utilt(17), CrashBomb(8) = 42%

(Specifics)
1: triple dair is performed by bouncing and doublejumping off of rush. Dair does 14 or 12 percent depending on how close you are, but going for the 14 can get you stuck. This setup would still work on paper with weak dair.

4: dair is a double jump autocancel

5; to do uair after zigma mb, you have to be higher. Sh->djump works good. The theory here is crashbomb will make them hesitate or get hit by utilt

 

[redcometchar]

Never thought to use rush canceled aerials. Looks like it might be useful.

 

[Meistermayo]

Oh yeah so you know how ryus 9% ftilt does a ton of shield damage? This means that certain moves can have additional damage, so is this the case for any of mms moves?

 

[redcometchar]

Oh yeah so you know how ryus 9% ftilt does a ton of shield damage? This means that certain moves can have additional damage, so is this the case for any of mms moves?

Both jab and dash attack do bonus shield damage but its not enough to be worth using.

 

[Meistermayo]

How does rage work with shield damage?

 

[redcometchar]

Doesn't change damage.

 

[Meistermayo]

If we do the mb zdrop shield pressure with a leaf shield up, will that help with the shieldstun?

(Extra setup: {CB} zdrop Mb/ bair regrab (12-17) -> CB (8) -> zdrop Mb (15) -> usmash (15) = (42-45) )

 

[redcometchar]

It would certainly increase your execution window. How much would depend on the exact timing of the leaf shield.

 

[xIvan321]

While this is certainly known about before, its not entirely underutilized. You can break shields especially with larger characters, however the question is, "Ivan, how do I apply shield breaking or even multiple z-drops alone to my game reasonably?" well, one way: this can be an option out of shield, and can be the most common time you should and would likely get away with. You would have to short hop, and in earliest convenience, you z-drop and for nearly the entire cast (haven't test everyone) the metal blade hits for 3-5 times depending on size.

Ultimately, this is the best reward for holding on to your metal blade for this long. I kinda figured the best way to do this out of shield on my own, however, there is also a Japanese Mega Man making shield break tech of his own, so I recommend you guys check it out.

https://vine.co/u/1145649751899938816

 

[CopShowGuy]

I wouldn't expect someone to stay in shield that long though.

 

[xIvan321]

I wouldn't expect someone to stay in shield that long though.

You're right, however, breaking shields can be very unavoidable sometimes when properly done right like the method I mentioned earlier combined with Mega-Upper. Likely there is not a whole lot an opponent can do, not to mention even expect it considering how fast z-drops are and out of shield. That can be pretty awesome. Some of the other stuff being thought up like multiple z-drops doesn't sound so bad.

 

[redcometchar]

Perfect multizdrops into an aerial or up tilt is a true blockstring. Opponent can't put down their shield once it starts.

 

[xIvan321]

Z-dropping and throws tend to be different due to how the speed of the metal blade travels. The slower it travels, the more the player is actually stuck. Three repeated hits from a z-drop is always enough for up-tilt to break your shield.

 

[Meistermayo]

Comet can you run the numbers for this scenario:
full hop diagonal down mb -> during the few frames of activity after mb is thrown and before landing, airdodge (picking up mb) ->
cancel dodge animation into c-stick down and land = down throw mb

does any of this hold practicality?

 

[xIvan321]

So I can confirm so far z-drop into upper-cut is a guaranteed shield break. I've been doing this consistently and it maybe the easiest Shield Breaking techniques I've done so far. The metal blade needs to hit at least three times on shield and this works on every character. If done successfully, z-drop close as heck forces opponent in shield to stay in shield, weakening every moment while up tilt finishes the remaining shield HP. More Mega Man should take advantage of this to be honest.

 

[ENKER]

Let's start seeing some videos of these shield breaking techs, Megas! :D

 

[Meistermayo]

So I can confirm so far z-drop into upper-cut is a guaranteed shield break. I've been doing this consistently and it maybe the easiest Shield Breaking techniques I've done so far. The metal blade needs to hit at least three times on shield and this works on every character. If done successfully, z-drop close as heck forces opponent in shield to stay in shield, weakening every moment while up tilt finishes the remaining shield HP. More Mega Man should take advantage of this to be honest.

Woah wait how does this work?

15% + 17% = 32% (+4th hit = 37%)

shields have effectively 42% life, but this setup suggests that the opponent has 10% shield already dropped, or that by holding shield during the zdrop, 10% is lost.

Of course, landing 10% on shield may not be hard to occur in neutral.
I want to try this out!

 

[Wreck33]

That japanese mega man shield break that Xlvan321 linked. Where he jumps and throws MB downwards and it hits shield into short hop nair MB pickup zdrop turnaround Uptilt works wonders! Landed tons of those in 3 hours off for glory. Great follow up if you don't wanna mess up MB infinite is CB>jump over opponent>Rush just before hitting ground>Dair coming down and land on rush>follow opponent in hitstun and place a 2nd rush under him just before hitstun wears off>Upair>KO!
Havent labbed the % this works yet but landed a lot of those after shield breaks last night.

 

[xIvan321]

Woah wait how does this work?

15% + 17% = 32% (+4th hit = 37%)

shields have effectively 42% life, but this setup suggests that the opponent has 10% shield already dropped, or that by holding shield during the zdrop, 10% is lost.

Of course, landing 10% on shield may not be hard to occur in neutral.
I want to try this out!

I think you may have that calculation wrong. I'm clearly aware of the 42% shield HP, however the metal blade rehitting 3 times from early squat already does a hefty amount of damage and is a true block string like Lucario's aura charge or Yoshi's dair. Combined with Mega Upper will finish that. It was hard to test alone because I had the bad habit of holding shield for the computer, but ultimately I can confirm its a true break and cannot be unblocked once started from my labbing. This will kill a full shield, but of course there's always sometimes your opponent will perfect shield and it may not break, however keep in mind z-drops are a single frame. In order for them to do that they have to really guess and often will pre-emtively shield while you hold the blade.

 

[Wreck33]

Before most of the time when I did this setup I grab after the zdrop and land that at least every other game. But now with this its pay out day : )

 

[redcometchar]

Before i get started lets just get something clear.
A SINGLE 3 OR 4 HIT ZDROP TO UP TILT DOESN'T BREAK FULL SHIELD, but don't take my word for it, test it yourself. Please.
Now that we have that sorted out lets move on.

So that Japanese megaman that everyone references, mostly puts non guaranteed mixups and not true blockstrings, i'm assuming just to be flashy, and they are without a doubt.

Lets optimize these pressure ideas as much as possible.
If you want to skip to the part where I talk about good options fast forward to the metalblade section.

First lets talk rush.
Rush is almost entirely useless for shield pressure. Cancelling an aerial with rush can act as a safe poke, but has some serious drawbacks.

1. You have to be standing above or where rush will be placed so your opponent has to advance toward rush for this to be of any use.

2. If these rush canceled aerials actually hit the opponent, you get nothing, unless they are air borne and you hit with up air, which isn't shield pressure to begin with.

3. Rush doesn't aid at all with true blockstrings.

Now lets talk aerials.
Aerials fill two rolls here: completing a shield break and spacing a poke.
For poking shield only nair and dair are useful. Just one nair itself is pretty unsafe at any range on shield, but because you can mixup how many you can shoot its a ok good poke, but don't expect to be setting up grabs on good players with it, because of the limited window for a second or third lemon before lag kicks in. It isn't unreactable. Also if your to far away they can literally drop shield and punish your lemon on hit.

Dair is also pretty unsafe and unrewarding. But its awkward to punish so sometimes its useful. You get nothing off of it though so really it isn't worth doing.

Megaman's other aerials are dumpy pokes.

Using aerials to finish shield breaks is the optimal way to do so, mainly bair, but ill get into why later.

Up air has some niche platform pressure usage but i haven't tested it much so i don't feel comfortable speculating.

------------------Metal blade
Best pressure tool in the game, starts an infinite, creates burst movement options, good pressure tool, easily spawned blah blah blah you already know all this.

In fact really this entire forum should be titled "The Metalblade Fan Club".

Repeated z drops are guaranteed on shield to some degree when timed perfectly. also because it does so much damage the opponent does not have time to escape via shield di.

Z dropping into grab is also guaranteed and has the added benefit of conveniently placing a metalbade at your feet for a followup.

Metalblade's only drawback is that it's despawning cannot be predicted, therefore, whenever possible, finishing a shield break with another move is optimal. Back air and up air are the best aerials and up smash and up tilt are the best grounded moves.

Also jc metalblade is a pretty good pressure tool as well, but it isnt frame tight.

---Setting up shield pressure

There are a few safe ways to set up z drop pressure.

1. Meistermayo Just mentioned the falling metalblade throw. Falling metal blade throw is good from a full hop but you cant catch the metal blade in time for it to launch garunteed shield pressure. However, Double jump falling metal blade throw can be garunteed if you time your catch correctly. On top of that its pretty safe because of the metalblade hitbox and allaround is a good approach.

2. Repeated multi zdrops in neutral. Imagine this like a wall of metal blades that slowly moves towards you. Baisically the same thing. Only downside is the possible dissapearance of the metal blade.

3. Doing jc down toss metalblade approaches. Kind of like a waveshine. Use it to pressure shields and combo people. Also comes with the risk of the dissapearing metalblade.

4. This one is a little iffy but it needs more testing. Doing a ditcit forward toss could yield a re-catch into pressure, but it needs to be tested more. Already a great burst movement tool and results in true followups, but if this works would also result in guaranteed shield breaks and infinites.

The best way to avoid metal blade setups as the resipiant is just to catch the metalblade. Its super tough though.

Thats all people. You guys give me migraines.

One last thing, up air is probably megaman's second best shield pressure option. Needs more testing though.

 

[Wreck33]

the rush setup is after the shield break

 

[redcometchar]

Wasn't reffering to your post

 

[Wreck33]

Cool wasn't totally sure : )

 

[Meistermayo]

So comet, falling mb spawn to instatoss is no good?