Q&A The 'Mains' Advice Thread

[Dream Cancel]

Hey guys,

Brawl vet here. Played Sheik and Snake in Brawl. Played Sheik because I like her gimping and custom combos. Played Snake because I liked his oppressive neutral, kill power, and grenades.
Took a break from smash when smash 4 came out. Got back into it late (when Corrin came out) and people told me was finally good, so I mained her since. I now am really tired of Sheik in this game. Can't gimp like in Brawl, set combos that don't make Sheik Sheik to me, and so very tired of dying super early after working hard to rack percent or kill. She's just not fun to me in this version of smash.
Trying to figure out who I should main between , , and . I've played each character for about a month and like all three. I like Cloud's kill power, movement, and big hit boxes, but don't like potentially getting gimped super early. I like Marth's kill power, gimping, and ledge pressure, but don't like how I have no projectiles or something to do if the opponent tries to camp except to semi approach and hope he miss-spaces. I like Diddy's movement, safe kill confirms, and his throws, but just don't understand how to utilize bananas.

I guess my biggest thing about choosing one of the three is committing to one, because playing all three is too much and I don't want to spend months playing one of them and finding out that the character wasn't for me like I did with Sheik. I'd rather just play one character instead of dual maining.

To be honest, Cloud is very rewarding to master, and I don't even play him. I say this because I've played against a wide variety of Clouds across many skill levels, and Cloud just has so many options at his disposal. He's very flexible and not really defined to any one playstyle, and scales heavily with a large time commitment.

Marth is cool, but you need to be precise to really get the most out of him. Additionally, as you said, you need to be strong against projectile users; this requires practice and knowledge of zone-breaking with a character that isn't the best at doing so. I still recommend him because he fundamentally a good character to play for a while, even if you don't plan to main him in the future.

I don't really have much to say about Diddy, but he is very liberating in the sense that he can always keep control of the game with his frame data + banana. His KO power is nothing to brag about but there are ways of mitigating this "weakness."

Overall, you won't go wrong picking of them, just Cloud is a bit inconsistent for solo-maining until you really have him down, and even then a secondary can still help. I recommend just picking one and looking a bit into their metagames to see if problems you have with the characters can be mitigated. (Go to smashcords.com for this, or their respective character boards)

 

[Dream Cancel]

Hey. I didn't even see this dang thing here. Well, here goes. So I used to be a main since 3DS but I quit in 1.1.5 since...well, I've had issues. Now that I'm back, I'm looking to start anew.

Since I've run into some friends of mine who have rekindled my thing for Robin, he'll be one my page as usual. Though...the other two are hard to figure out. I don't know what other characters there are to choose from but I don't want to be a one-trick pony.

- For Competitive Play -

As a fellow Robin main, I can tell you that, MU-wise, Bayonetta and Cloud cover everything, and Mario, Sheik, and Fox, cover most MUs as secondaries.

However, I suck as all of those characters so my actual tournament secondary is Lucina. Lucina still covers a decent number of MUs and is a bit of a playstyle change from Robin, so she's nice to play.

- For Fun and For Hype -

Otherwise, I play a wide variety of characters, all to different degrees of skill, but they're all fun to me and I enjoy learning how to play different characters to decent degrees.

Personally, I think I can play 20+ characters to a reasonable degree (I tend to neglect character-specific things though since they're not my mains) and I pick up little tricks and dank things along the way, so I find this process very enjoyable. It also aids any competitive play, because if you play obscure characters, you're less likely to struggle in those obscure MUs.

Low-key though, people fear you if you're a terror with Ganondorf or the gimpiest (no idea if this is a word, but just go for crazy gimps and edge play) Kirby to ever play this game. People make mistakes and wrecking souls with dank early KOs is so much fun, lmao.

- Suggestions -

If you want something similar to Robin, play other zoners like Link, Toon Link, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, Olimar, Villager, Samus, etc.

If you want more disjoints and less projectiles, play Marth, Lucina, Cloud, Corrin, or Rosalina & Luma.

If you want to actually fight people with fists, give Fox, Mario, Captain Falcon, Ness, or Kirby a try.

Like instilling the fear into people? Try Ike, Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser, and DK.

Personally I recommend giving Captain Falcon, Lucina, and Ike a try.

Good luck fellow tactician!

 

[Ultimastrike]

- For Competitive Play -

As a fellow Robin main, I can tell you that, MU-wise, Bayonetta and Cloud cover everything, and Mario, Sheik, and Fox, cover most MUs as secondaries.

However, I suck as all of those characters so my actual tournament secondary is Lucina. Lucina still covers a decent number of MUs and is a bit of a playstyle change from Robin, so she's nice to play.

- For Fun and For Hype -

Otherwise, I play a wide variety of characters, all to different degrees of skill, but they're all fun to me and I enjoy learning how to play different characters to decent degrees.

Personally, I think I can play 20+ characters to a reasonable degree (I tend to neglect character-specific things though since they're not my mains) and I pick up little tricks and dank things along the way, so I find this process very enjoyable. It also aids any competitive play, because if you play obscure characters, you're less likely to struggle in those obscure MUs.

Low-key though, people fear you if you're a terror with Ganondorf or the gimpiest (no idea if this is a word, but just go for crazy gimps and edge play) Kirby to ever play this game. People make mistakes and wrecking souls with dank early KOs is so much fun, lmao.

- Suggestions -

If you want something similar to Robin, play other zoners like Link, Toon Link, R.O.B., Duck Hunt, Olimar, Villager, Samus, etc.

If you want more disjoints and less projectiles, play Marth, Lucina, Cloud, Corrin, or Rosalina & Luma.

If you want to actually fight people with fists, give Fox, Mario, Captain Falcon, Ness, or Kirby a try.

Like instilling the fear into people? Try Ike, Ganondorf, Charizard, Bowser, and DK.

Personally I recommend giving Captain Falcon, Lucina, and Ike a try.

Good luck fellow tactician!

I'll give those a try and see what I like. Generally, I like Robin's playstyle but I do want to have options. I just need to figure out what works, I guess.

 

[Heracr055]

I made a thread about potentially quitting the game not too long ago. While I haven't made a real return to competitive play, I spent time learning ZSS movement, spacing and FJK setups. I'm finally getting a grasp of her fundamentals and seeing drastic improvement with her, a char whose movement and FJK that I couldn't even handle in the not so distant past, despite my efforts. I'm going to continue practicing her and testing my progress in For Glory and perhaps my irl friends. If I can retain this positive momentum with this char, there's a good chance Ryu will become my secondary. It's an exciting time despite not completely sure if I'll return to competitive

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Heracr055 thats awesome! Glad you found a new spark in this game.

I guess I’ll do an update too. I’m still a main and still have as a secondary, but I also grabbed as another secondary. He’s got a lot of things I like in a character and his combo game is a new tool to my kit of counterpicking. As I keep playing I wanna add and as other tools to my CP play style. I have a good understanding of them aswell. Don’t know when they’ll appear but I plan to add them.

 

[Dream Cancel]

Heracr055 thats awesome! Glad you found a new spark in this game.

I guess I’ll do an update too. I’m still a main and still have as a secondary, but I also grabbed as another secondary. He’s got a lot of things I like in a character and his combo game is a new tool to my kit of counterpicking. As I keep playing I wanna add and as other tools to my CP play style. I have a good understanding of them aswell. Don’t know when they’ll appear but I plan to add them.

... Just stick to one character man. Your experience will be funneled into them and, while your tech with other characters may suffer in the short term, you will be greatly increasing your fundamentals in the long term. This isn't pokemon; you don't need a balanced team. A balanced team will not have enough time to beat a single, strong opponent in just 2 out of 3 games.

I've already posted here saying the exact same thing I'm saying now. You may be progressing, but sticking to your strengths will greatly accelerate your gameplay. Top players have been saying this for a long time; I'm just a messenger with good intent.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

... Just stick to one character man. Your experience will be funneled into them and, while your tech with other characters may suffer in the short term, you will be greatly increasing your fundamentals in the long term. This isn't pokemon; you don't need a balanced team. A balanced team will not have enough time to beat a single, strong opponent in just 2 out of 3 games.

I've already posted here saying the exact same thing I'm saying now. You may be progressing, but sticking to your strengths will greatly accelerate your gameplay. Top players have been saying this for a long time; I'm just a messenger with good intent.

I’m really working mainly on 2 atm () and I know it’s not very smart I just find more fun in being a counterpick player like False. So I’m still keeping it to 2 ish as I improve but I want to be a CP player mainly cause it’s fun. I appreciate the advice though.

 

[C0rvus]

Hey, it's me. I've taken a break from taking Smash seriously, and doubt my ability to take it seriously in the future, but I want to try and get back into it. I think it'd be best for me to keep trying and possibly use the game as an outlet to practice patience and maybe meet people.
That said, my biggest issue from before is still an issue: character selection. I waver too much and know it would benefit me to stick to a single character. If I can't muster up the discipline to do this then I cannot ever make this game work for me. Maybe this thread could offer some advice?

I've mained a number of characters since release, but saw the most success with Meta Knight, Corrin, and Lucario. MK was the last time I was able to stick to one character, and I found myself getting pretty consistent results. But I was forcing it, he didn't really suit me, so I lost interest.

Corrin is a case where I found the character very intuitive and strong. I did well with him, but I got bored. His offense is all short hop aerials. Bleh. I'd consider playing him again though. I think he rewards patience nicely.

Lucario was a character I found fun. I love moving around with him and wavebouncing. Getting high aura comebacks makes me feel cruddy, as scrubby as that may be.

I'm open to trying most of the cast at this point, but would prefer a character that isn't bad. What I'm looking for is someone who has strong offense or reward, someone who isn't too one dimensional, and who rewards patient, accurate play. That vague enough for you?

 

[freeziebeatz]

I don't know how active this thread is, but I would like some help for Sm4sh. I usually play random whenever I play but it has lead me to bcome a jack of all trades but master of none and I want to start working on having a main. I can give some background though and would like some advice from there on who I should look at to play.

Starting off, the only other Smash I actively play is Melee. I main and secondary and use a little bit of as well. Like Sm4sh, I play everyone, but these are the characters I enjoy the most / am best with. I really like Melee playstyle and have the most fun with them. I like Sheik for her combo ability, gimping ability, and her aerial game in general. Mario has been a more recent development in the past year, and I just love his gameplay in general. Mario and Falco have this cool vertical element to their combos which I find a lot of fun, plus they have some of my favorite projectiles in the game. Marth has this spacing and elegance to him that I love a lot, and I love how well his moves flow into one another. I am more of an aerial fighter which is why I have been looking into Jiggs more as well and have been enjoying her weaving in and out style.

In Sm4sh, I pretty much play random, but I can definitely break down the characters I enjoy playing over others. Keep in mind I am no pro, but when I say good/bad it's just relative to my own mid-level play. Good usual means I have a relatively good understanding of their neutral, combos, and can play these characters and win against opponents around my level.

Enjoy / Am Good With -
Enjoy / Am Bad With -
Don't Enjoy / Am Good With -
Don't Enjoy / Am Bad With -

I know this is a weird assortment of characters, but I am really just looking to get better with 4-5 of that top row. It's kind of broken down into this for me deciding who to work on though. I know for a fact that any character not in the first row I don't want to main. Based off the top row and my melee characters, who do you think are the characters I should elevate my play with?

 

[KniteBlargh]

C0rvus Nice to see you!

It's funny, I've been feeling similarly with Meta Knight. I probably get the best results having him as a secondary (practically a co-main) to my Jigglypuff as he seems to be a natural fit for me, and I do like him as a character, but I can't help feeling a longing for something else, though I'm not sure what that "something else" is yet. Sain suggested Diddy Kong since he would cover more in the way of MUs since I main Jiggs, but I get that cruddy feeling you mentioned when someone I play has absolutely no idea how to handle banana peels... Creativity isn't even needed in those instances, and it just feels bad to me, at least so far. Maybe I just need to learn how to play creatively with a character even when I can tell the opponent has no idea what they're dealing with...

Anyway, enough about my situation. A few options stand out to me in your case. You want someone good... I'm not sure if that includes high tier as well? It doesn't seem like winning is what you specifically need to enjoy yourself (since MK getting you results wasn't the ticket). You might have better chances enjoying the game if you go with a character that offers a lot to be learned, and challenges you to find interesting ways to use the knowledge/skill you acquire with them. My suggestions are:
- Though some feel she's pretty straight-forward and all about the grab, there's a lot more to it than that, and I think that can really only be understood fully by playing the character. She rewards a very active passive aggressive playstyle; patience coupled with precision can net you some of the most exciting wins. She's fun to wavebounce with, and you can get very creative with her toolkit.
- Similar benefits to playing ZSS. He doesn't have the risky grab, but he's an easy target and very light on top of that, so you can't get reckless at all (I've rested waaay too many overly confident Mewtwo mains, and that really shouldn't be happening). A lot of possibilities and things to learn with this character. Really interesting and fun movement to work on.
- Good fundamentals actually go a long way with this char, but he absolutely requires a good understanding of his mechanical makeup in order to progress, so precision is key. Doesn't really have much in the way of good OoS options (footstool into dair is pretty much the best thing you get), so you have to master some passive aggressive trickery with his water shurikens in order to find that perfect opening when all of your practice with his more difficult options will suddenly pay off. It's not that he's exactly bad when in CQC or anything (his down tilt is a wonderful poke that can even lead to a KO, for instance), it's just that you have a very specific range to work with, and having someone right in your face can be a problem. So yeah, understanding his workable and ideal range is rewarding as well, kind of in a similar way to Marth, I guess.
- Has a wide range of playstyles, though patience pays off with her in almost all of those cases (especially if you're up against swords; she can have some issues there, so being more than or at least equally as patient as your opponent can really help). Want to get extremely technical? She can do that for you. Want to confuse your opponent by playing in a deceptively basic way until the moment is right (see Kie)? She can do that, as well. One great thing about Peach is that she actually has some pretty simple ways to get some damage in, but her skill ceiling is high enough to pretty much always give you something new to try and perfect, along with finding all the situations in which you can use your newfound skills. Her attitude and personality level is also off the charts, so that's kind of fun.

Not sure if any of this is what you were looking for, or will be helpful to you, but ultimately, I just hope you manage to find the fun. In the end, if you're unable to figure out what you want to go with, and you just want to have fun and be with people, try maining random for a while. I recently went with random through a bunch of matches with local chums, and I was surprised by how thrilling it could be. Such an option wouldn't suit me since I already have a main I know and love, but it was fun!

freeziebeatz I was actually thinking about while reading through your post before even seeing he was in your top row. He has one of the highest jumps in the game, and quite a lot of vertical shenanigans to go along with that. There isn't really a projectile in this game that feels like Melee Falco, but I'd say Greninja's water shurikens come closest, at least in my opinion. As I mentioned above, he offers quite a lot to master, and his combo game is very tight. One thing I'd suggest with Greninja right off the bat is to make absolutely certain you understand the mechanics behind his recovery, especially his up special, before making a verdict on the character and how well he fits what you enjoy. While others, like Pikachu for instance, are a bit more lenient with their recovery, you really have to get a good feel for Greninja's hydro pump to keep from accidentally using shadow sneak instead...

Aside from Greninja, though I really feel he fits the best, I'd suggest maybe...
- Great aerials, especially when you learn how to safely space them on shields and auto-cancel to prevent landing lag. Cloud doesn't really have a standout grounded poke, but I feel a good knowledge of his aerial game makes up for that. Down tilt and dash attack can both be incredibly useful for 2-framing at the ledge. One can net a KO, and the other can set up for something special. It is possible to do some crazy off-stage stuff with Cloud, but you also have to know the risks involved; his recovery isn't so hot, especially without a charged limit, and learning to reverse his up special so his blade faces away from the stage can be tricky for some. If you don't enjoy Sm4sh Marth but like Melee Marth, then Cloud is probably your next best option.
- A common choice for those who enjoy Jigglypuff. His aerials are pretty great (dair, not so much, but it can still be cool in certain situations), and thanks to his grab, he also has a strong on-stage presence. His recovery is very risky, and demands some real smarts to get the best survival times against some of his more difficult match-ups, like Rosa and Villager. Thankfully his PK thunder and PK fire can both be useful enough for gimping, stage spiking, or setting up for other stuff, that he doesn't actually have to go off-stage the majority of the time.

I was going to add another, but I'll stop there for now, because I feel some of the others I would have chosen as a fourth suggestion share a similar amount of pros and cons based on what you've explained. Hope this helps you out.

 

[PK Bash]

I'm open to trying most of the cast at this point, but would prefer a character that isn't bad. What I'm looking for is someone who has strong offense or reward, someone who isn't too one dimensional, and who rewards patient, accurate play. That vague enough for you?

Sounds like Marth and Olimar. Offense doesn't tend to be synonymous with patient play but Marth is able to generate a fearsome offense if the opponent holds their shield for too long or mispokes or something and has dangerous landing/ledgetraps. Definitely rewards patient and accurate play. You need to wait for exactly the right moment before you start swinging your sword, he's a very reactive character and if he's swinging badly he's prob going to lose. It's about reacting to their spacing and whatever option they choose. He thrives on footsies, and you NEED patience to be good at footsies.

As for Olimar, he can mount one hell of an offense and has some pretty high reward whilst doing so (a competent Olimar's advantage state is bonkers), but he does require patience especially in the neutral. You should be getting them to come to you before you start with the Purples or the Grabs. And you need to bide your time for those Purple Pikmin, which is when Olimar is at his best. And don't expect instant gratification with this man. Olimar does require you to put in the dedication but if you do, he will really start giving back.
In a game of 50-something one-dimensional and frankly boring characters, Olimar is honestly one of the more interesting and multi-faceted of the lot.

So yeah maybe they're a couple of other options worth considering in addition to the above suggestions.

I like Sheik for her combo ability, gimping ability, and her aerial game in general. Mario has been a more recent development in the past year, and I just love his gameplay in general. Mario and Falco have this cool vertical element to their combos which I find a lot of fun, plus they have some of my favorite projectiles in the game. Marth has this spacing and elegance to him that I love a lot, and I love how well his moves flow into one another. I am more of an aerial fighter which is why I have been looking into Jiggs more as well and have been enjoying her weaving in and out style.

This screams Zero Suit Samus to me. Whilst her gimping ability isn't all that compared to some other characters, she has some fun and stylish options in the form of Flip Kick spikes and tether trumping. She's all about her aerials obviously. Thrives on vertical ladder combos. Has the movement and tools to control/claim a lot of space. Spacing is pretty integral to this character, and it feels sharp and focused. And she also does a lot of weaving with her various flips out of forwards and backwards shorthops, and her foxtrots, in order to get her grabs and other combo starters.
Mind you if you're going to play ZSS you do need to put some time into her to get anything back. I wouldn't recommend learning or developing other characters simultaneously until you are confident in the character. I would give the same advice for Greninja.

IDK just another thought.

 

[AJb1205]

I felt a new spark in the game but I'm still a little noob with no actual main yet. I still have a lot of major issues even after practicing for a while. I'm bad at killing people. I can get them to high percent but I'm bad at getting grabs or landing a smash attack. I miss grabs a great deal. Some other stupid things I do include initially shielding an attack then letting go of the button after the first hit. I dash attack accidentally a lot. I don't air dodge enough. If I do get the first kill I'm unable to rack up a little bit of damage before getting killed as usually I'm at a high percent when I kill someone.

Characters I enjoy/Ok with- (I can occasionally win with these characters and they're fun to play with)
Characters I enjoy/Bad with- (I like these characters and I wish I was ok with them but I'm not)
Characters I don't enjoy/Bad with- (I honestly hate using these characters and I suck at them too)
Every other character is ok but I'm bad with them.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I felt a new spark in the game but I'm still a little noob with no actual main yet. I still have a lot of major issues even after practicing for a while. I'm bad at killing people. I can get them to high percent but I'm bad at getting grabs or landing a smash attack. I miss grabs a great deal. Some other stupid things I do include initially shielding an attack then letting go of the button after the first hit. I dash attack accidentally a lot. I don't air dodge enough. If I do get the first kill I'm unable to rack up a little bit of damage before getting killed as usually I'm at a high percent when I kill someone.

Characters I enjoy/Ok with- (I can occasionally win with these characters and they're fun to play with)
Characters I enjoy/Bad with- (I like these characters and I wish I was ok with them but I'm not)
Characters I don't enjoy/Bad with- (I honestly hate using these characters and I suck at them too)
Every other character is ok but I'm bad with them.

Use who’s most fun. Also are you playing to win or just have fun? Cause that’ll help narrow down. And all the the things you say you’re bad at are fundamental things that a character can’t fix. That’s on you

 

[KniteBlargh]

AJb1205 For how long and how consistently have you been playing the game, if I may ask?

As Sain already pointed out, your character won't really fix the issues you're describing. However, I can suggest you stick with a certain character as you practice and improve in your fundamentals before moving on to choosing an actual main. Of course one character in particular who is often suggested for this kind of situation is Mario. He's pretty balanced and a good starting point to work with. Don't fret over the fact that you may not like the character, or the idea of playing him, because you're only doing it to help you transition to someone else later on (and who knows, you might actually discover he's the character for you, after all).

I'm not sure what mode you're playing in mostly, but try to devote most of your current play sessions to fighting a level 1-3 CPU on an uncomplicated stage. I would suggest Final Destination for a flat stage, and Battlefield for platforms. You can do this in actual matches or training mode. The point to all of this is not what level CPU you can successfully defeat; the benefit is that you will become so familiar with the intricacies of both the character and fundamentals of the game, you should get to the point where you are performing the actions you want to be, without even looking at your own character. Most people have a favourite training dummy, and I would likewise suggest you decide on a character to target during these training sessions to keep your experience as consistent as possible for now (Mario, Diddy Kong, Captain Falcon, and Cloud are all popular targets to practice against); you can move on to learning general strategies against various characters later on.

If you insist on using a character you're "ok with", then I'd suggest Lucina, as she's the most basic character from your top row of listed characters and thus decent for learning fundamentals.

When you play matches against other people, especially if they're offline, save replays whether things go well or not. Watch said replays and think about why something worked, and definitely consider why other actions didn't work out. You'll see where you need to focus some of your training as you progress, and it'll also help you actively consider what your opponent is trying to do and what you can do to counter their strategy.

Sometimes it may feel like you're not going anywhere, but trust me, you will improve.

 

[PK Bash]

This isn't a response to anyone in particular.

Honestly the best character to sharpen your fundamentals in this game is Ike. Especially for those who are looking to get into the tournament scene.
I can see the argument for Mario, but Mario is super lenient gives you a lot of stuff that isn't applicable to every other character. The latter point is also true of Doctor Mario, Pit, and most other characters people suggest to sharpen your fundamentals. On the flipside, everything you can learn from Ike is applicable to every single character in the game.

Ike doesn't have many options in his arsenal but he has just about enough to form a coherent gameplan in any state of the game. However, those options are very little good to you if you don't use them properly. Whereas an option like Sheik f-air can be heavily leaned on in the neutral game, Ike's N-air, which fulfils a very similar role, requires (at the risk of sounding condescending to Sheik mains) much more thought than Sheik's F-air ever did. You don't have the advantage of ludicrously good frame data. The move is functional and good at what it does, but it is not forgiving. You need to pick your moments to use it very carefully. Should you mis-space it on a shield, or use it too high in the air, or miss the fastfall, you will get punished. Should you space it well, use it at the right moment and execute perfectly, however, you will be fine.

This fundamental principle applies to the entirety of Ike's kit. His tools are very good at their job, but they are not very forgiving if misused and require the Ike player to think very carefully about when they use them.

He also teaches very good habits.
-He encourages you to stay underneath the opponent
-He encourages you to not overextend, because he won't ever get those hits he shouldn't be getting.
-He encourages you to learn when his setups will kill
-He encourages you to stay on stage when edgeguarding
-He forces you to understand spacing and ranges and "dance" with the opponent.
-Leading on from the above point, he teaches patience. Due to his overall slow movement relative to the cast he cannot rely on rushing down opponents to win.
-His recovery options encourage ledgesnapping.
I could probably go on but there is more to say.

He has no gimmicks.
-Mario, Pit etc have reflectors. Ike only has the universal options every character has to negotiate projectiles.
-Ike has no Flip Jump or Bouncing Fish to escape Disadvantage state. He can't even stall in the air with Cape or PSI Magnet. He only the universal options every character has, plus a very high risk Counter which cannot be spammed - thought is required to manage this risky option.
-He has a spike, like many characters, but it's not a great one to go for the vast majority of the time.
-He is relatively slow in terms of both movement and frame data.
-His rolls etc are pretty average.
-He has a very distinct "bubble" of space he controls at any one time, with no significant burst range or variation in range of attacks.
-No tipper on his sword. You're not encouraged to space for extra reward, but you're encouraged to space for other reasons already alluded to.

Ike fundamentally is a decent character, but his options are relatively constrained and simple and his tools function in a way that encourages thought and good habits for playing the game.

So for those people who are looking to elevate their game, I will always recommend Ike 100%. The Pits and Marios can get stuffed: they are far too lenient and help the player too much in some situations, they don't teach all the best habits like Ike does, and they have a number of extra options which make them fine for complete beginners but not for those wishing to seriously see improvement.

 

[KniteBlargh]

I hope that explaining myself isn't a silly mistake on my part, but I thought I should fill in AJb1205 a bit more as to why I made such a suggestion as Mario, so they can decide what's best for their individual case (I believe the best choice for a starter varies on a case by case basis).

While it's true Ike is a great choice for fundamentals, and I have already recommended him many times to beginners because of this fact, AJb1205 mostly seemed to describe a lack of hand coordination and accuracy, which in my opinion is a priority before mid-match strategy. Mario doesn't require quick inputs, but he can also make great use of quick inputs as a player becomes more confident with said inputs, thus helping the hands take on a large selection of the cast later on. I think in a lot of these cases, it's easier for a player to become familiar with a character who can utilize fast inputs and then move on to someone who requires more specific timing (note the user mostly likes characters that generally require quicker inputs than Ike, but slower than Mario). It's true that Mario can get away with a lot, but watching replays can also help teach a player what is or isn't a good option, as well as showing up any bad habits. If a player needs more help in that regard, they could always move on to Ike, who would honestly be pretty dang easy to control after learning a multitude of common inputs with Mario. I also feel Mario's recovery is more global than Ike's.

So yeah, in short, I wasn't prioritizing Mario for competitive play, but rather technical competence. For the record, I've seen day-one Ike mains still throwing out whatever unsafe move they can till this day and expecting it to work without having to think too deeply about anything, and Mario mains practically doing nothing but up smash and FLUDD. A player could always get better by playing Ike, Mario, the Pits, or what have you, but it's all going to boil down to their attitude in the end and how much they want to actually think about what's good and what isn't. In the same way, a player could perfect their technical skill with Mario, but never learn how to take anyone on properly and actually make use of that skill...

Just see what works best for you, AJb1205, after weighing the pros and cons.

 

[Chiggaman23]

So, just choosing ways to narrow down my main pool is hard. First is the people in the pool.
Considered mains:
Considered secondaries:
Considered pockets:
Debatable:
So yeah, lots to choose from. I consider a lot of characters fun to play. My playstyle is varied. I can adapt to playstyles, just not necessarily matchups. But, generally, I try to play aggressively safe, or unorthodox, examples being actually using Shine as Fox in some situations. By aggressively safe, I throw out everything I have in my disposal, but at a safe distance. That could lead to being too aggressive and getting punished frequently. When my character has a projectile, I will often retreat to charge, and that leaves me wide open a lot. What would you say is the character that best fits that playstyle?

 

[PK Bash]

I hope that explaining myself isn't a silly mistake on my part, but I thought I should fill in AJb1205 a bit more as to why I made such a suggestion as Mario, so they can decide what's best for their individual case (I believe the best choice for a starter varies on a case by case basis).

While it's true Ike is a great choice for fundamentals, and I have already recommended him many times to beginners because of this fact, AJb1205 mostly seemed to describe a lack of hand coordination and accuracy, which in my opinion is a priority before mid-match strategy. Mario doesn't require quick inputs, but he can also make great use of quick inputs as a player becomes more confident with said inputs, thus helping the hands take on a large selection of the cast later on. I think in a lot of these cases, it's easier for a player to become familiar with a character who can utilize fast inputs and then move on to someone who requires more specific timing (note the user mostly likes characters that generally require quicker inputs than Ike, but slower than Mario). It's true that Mario can get away with a lot, but watching replays can also help teach a player what is or isn't a good option, as well as showing up any bad habits. If a player needs more help in that regard, they could always move on to Ike, who would honestly be pretty dang easy to control after learning a multitude of common inputs with Mario. I also feel Mario's recovery is more global than Ike's.

So yeah, in short, I wasn't prioritizing Mario for competitive play, but rather technical competence. For the record, I've seen day-one Ike mains still throwing out whatever unsafe move they can till this day and expecting it to work without having to think too deeply about anything, and Mario mains practically doing nothing but up smash and FLUDD. A player could always get better by playing Ike, Mario, the Pits, or what have you, but it's all going to boil down to their attitude in the end and how much they want to actually think about what's good and what isn't. In the same way, a player could perfect their technical skill with Mario, but never learn how to take anyone on properly and actually make use of that skill...

Just see what works best for you, AJb1205, after weighing the pros and cons.

Oh I agree with your suggestions, and I'm not suggesting Ike for anyone here right now.
I've been wanting to make this post for a long time and I had a spare hour waiting for a train and thought, well, we're talking about fundamentals, let's post this now before it slips my mind again.
Don't get the wrong idea from my posts. I really like your posts and how much soul you put into helping the people here. That's really cool and inspiring to see so keep doing what you're doing.
Edit C Chiggaman23 in response to the question you ask at the end of the post, I'd say Cloud (with his limit charge) or Mewtwo (Shadow Ball) are particularly good.
I'm going to comment on your playstyle and why I feel it's ineffective another time, but the crux of that is everything you do needs a purpose behind it and if you're throwing moves from across the stage, who you trying to hit?
Second post incoming tomorrow probably.

 

[Chiggaman23]

I also have something to add. I narrowed it down in other games, except for Project m. For now, this is what I have.
Melee:
Brawl:
Project m:
Mostly the same in Brawl, but in Melee and project m, it shifts between campy and overly aggressive. Depends on who I play, spacies and Falcon are aggressive, while others are safe and campy. Just as something to prove my point.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

So, just choosing ways to narrow down my main pool is hard. First is the people in the pool.
Considered mains:
Considered secondaries:
Considered pockets:
Debatable:
So yeah, lots to choose from. I consider a lot of characters fun to play. My playstyle is varied. I can adapt to playstyles, just not necessarily matchups. But, generally, I try to play aggressively safe, or unorthodox, examples being actually using Shine as Fox in some situations. By aggressively safe, I throw out everything I have in my disposal, but at a safe distance. That could lead to being too aggressive and getting punished frequently. When my character has a projectile, I will often retreat to charge, and that leaves me wide open a lot. What would you say is the character that best fits that playstyle?

I’d say still to one and that one is . He’s amazing, is fairly honest and teaches fundamentals well while also being aggressive and safe due to his crazy frame data.

 

[Nah]

I mostly play . Lately I have been thinking about quitting the game, but then the thought occurred to me "but before you do, why not try a top tier?". Figure that perhaps it'll offer a bit of a change of pace, and that using one of the best might be helpful too. At the moment I think that the most reasonable choices for me would be and , as they both have some of what I like, while offering some of what Robin and Corrin lack. I don't plan to solo main Cloud or Mewtwo, as I don't think that solo maining is for me, nor do I plan to main 3-4 of the characters together, as I think that's too many for me to do. So basically my questions are:

• Who between Cloud and Mewtwo should I roll with alongside Robin (chances are if I do this Corrin will basically be getting dropped)?
  
• Should I even bother?

not that you're restricted to only answering the two questions, other thoughts are welcome too

 

[InfinitySoul]

Cannot answer first question, but for the second, sure, why not ? You either find amusement in the game again with the new main or you don't, and you did not loose anything trying.

 

[C0rvus]

I realize that this is like the opposite of what I asked for earlier, but who would you say are the strongest defensive characters? In Fire Emblem Heroes, my favorite team is one that I'm building to tank everything. Maybe that could be my preferred play style in other games as well? Maybe there's no correlation, but the question still stands.

 

[MercuryPenny]

what exactly do you mean by defensive? mega man almost obliterates every approach by pressing a, and gets quite a bit off whiff/out-of-shield punishes. villager kinda hops around using fair/bair and side-b to projectile camp and has the tree to interrupt or otherwise interfere with onstage movement. bayo can get an instant percent lead and force approaches with bullet arts, and has a move that can net you tons of damage or a kill by reading any move that's not a grab.

a lot of characters could be considered "defensive", it ultimately just depends on what kind of defense you're talking about

 

[C0rvus]

I suppose I was being vague on purpose, mostly because I don't know what kind I'm looking for. The playstyle I enjoy in a tactical rpg doesn't translate to fighting games cleanly. It's even worse because I think pretty much every character in Smash 4 is rewarded for defensive play. So perhaps this Avenue isn't ideal.

I will say that I don't think I have the amount of patience needed to play the clock or camp for extended periods of time. What I want is maybe a character that can force approaches and can keep the opponent walled out when they come in impatiently.

 

[Lavani]

So it's not that you want to run away and camp. You want a character that forces your opponent's hand with their stage control, and probably the sort of character who has enough disjoint to beat out moves safely.

I've been away from this game for a year or so now, but that's the sort of thing I really liked about my mains, Rosalina and Corrin.

 

[C0rvus]

I have had success with Corrin in the past, and the character feels very natural to me. Perhaps because they're fairly simple. I wish Robin was better, he's probably my favorite character, but I perform quite poorly with him, and don't enjoy the frequency of unfun matchups I have to play in bracket. Corrin is the next best thing, I guess. Maybe I can give Rosa a shot too, I've never really done that.

Edit: Link seems to play similarly too, he's cool.

 

[Lavani]

I'm maybe reading into things too much, but I feel like what you're looking for overlaps what I wanted in my characters, so I'll attempt a hypothetical. Say you're in this position:

As Corrin, in this position, Diddy can die to fsmash. He isn't necessarily going to; throwing out a raw fsmash is risky. But the threat exists. You can reach him, he can't reach you, and you have faster, safer disjoints to wall him out with if he tries to approach. Rosalina, similarly, can safely control the space with luma positioning via jabs or untethering, and threatens uairs/usmashes for trying to go over Luma, or punishes for attacking it directly. Link does not have control here; it's not a safe range to be committing to projectiles, but none of his disjoints reach either (zair/tether are like 2/3 this range).

That's the sort of impression I got from what you were asking for. You don't want a character that runs or camps, but you don't want a close quarters character either. The compromise would be characters who control a large portion of the stage, and get in your face without actually getting directly in your face. Which I feel best describes Rosalina and Corrin. Not to say Link is a dedicated camper or anything of the sort, just that he doesn't control space to the same degree that those two do.

I wish Robin was better too, but c'est la vie

 

[C0rvus]

That sounds pretty accurate. Pressuring the opponent with large potential hitboxes. With most character I feel like I'm never in control of the pace of the match. (Maybe it's a confidence thing.) I don't remember if I felt that with Corrin or not.

I'm probably a Corrin main. I keep coming back to the character, but I have my gripes. More than anything else, I love to move in this game. Options out of perfect pivot, useful wavebounce mixups, good dash. Corrin's ground game is so mediocre that I feel I cannot make much use of PP tilts. And they're kinda slow.

Maybe it would be best to play a secondary that scratches that itch. I often fall back on Lucario because he moves almost perfectly. That new Art of Sheik video Izaw uploaded makes me wonder if I should try her. Her "freestyle combos" sound enjoyable, and she rewards tech skill more than anyone else. I may give her a whirl to find out what I enjoy more; technical movement or big hitboxes.

Anyway I'm rambling now but thanks for all of the responses. Maybe someday I'll chill and let myself have a main lol

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

After a speech from Esam I heard at DHDenver I thought I’d relay this message onto y’all.

So I joined in later but a player had asked him about getting better and he responded with this message: it’s not that you’re not getting better, it’s that everyone else is also always getting better. For example you’re not catching up to zero cause he’s not as good as he was before, he’s still improving. Also some players are improving faster, ie cosmos. Players like him are getting better faster because they grind so much more. And it’s not easy everyone’s got other things goin on. Players like him and zero and mvd are so good because it’s their jobs to be and they’ve done it for 10+ years. So it’s all up to how much work you put in compared to everyone else. Like if you play 2 hours a day every day but falcongod321 plays 3 hours then he’s gonna he better than you cause he’s putting in more work (this is if you both practice the right way).

Another message of him is this: smash 4 is a very mental game, but before you can trueky get to that you’ve got to be able to do everything you wanna do. What he meant by this was your controller. You being able to consistently pull of every single combo and set up and movement option at anytime. And going in with a plan. Knowing your character so well that before you start the match you know what you need to do and can easily do it. And example is diddy; getting a lead with safe options and finding openings to throw banana and tack on percent and maintain a lead and camp.

Why does this matter? This is how to get good. Know you’re character and your plan and be able to execute everything without fail. The mental game can only be mastered after that. So whoever you use, however many, are you you okay enough to get down their movement and everything they need for their plan. Good luck everyone, happy smashing!

 

[DarkAuraful]

Anyone got good secondary options for ? I know there are probably optimal options like and but I would also like to explore more.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

Anyone got good secondary options for ? I know there are probably optimal options like and but I would also like to explore more.

What mus do you struggle in

 

[DarkAuraful]

I haven't played Smash 4 for a long time so forgive me if I say sounds off or dated but I believe Ryu's slow mobility is what is exploited by campers. So characters like .

Maybe does fine against ? Haven't seen those matchup sets. Though Villager, Mega Man and Lucas I can do just fine with . Maybe those two are secondary options right off the bat there.

 

[Nice_FZPSC.42]

I haven't played Smash 4 for a long time so forgive me if I say sounds off or dated but I believe Ryu's slow mobility is what is exploited by campers. So characters like .

Maybe does fine against ? Haven't seen those matchup sets. Though Villager, Mega Man and Lucas I can do just fine with . Maybe those two are secondary options right off the bat there.

You’re set with those two they cover for you well.

 

[Krysco]

So I'm posting here again. I don't get to play this game much since my sparring buddy is focusing on school, I don't like FG and there's no tournaments in my city. Could go to Ottawa for weeklies but I'm focusing my money elsewhere for the next year or so.

Anyways, with that out of the way, I'm choosing to focus on Roy since I find Robin's weaknesses to be too much. Slow mobility with the worst dash, one of the worst walks and jumpsquats, worst dash to shield, a recovery with no hitboxes that defend him and it can run out and kill moves that can outright disappear. Levin aerials are nice as is Checkmate but that's one heck of a list of drawbacks to take for it. Roy on the other hand has speed both on the ground and in the air. His recovery doesn't go far but it at least tries to protect him and he has no problem getting damage from combos and he has kill confirms. I also really like that he can start high damaging combos from grabs or attacks whereas most characters are heavily reliant on one or the other. Lastly, he also has a safe grondd poke in dtilt though so does Robin.

That all being said, I'd like to have a secondary so the game doesn't become stale too quickly and to cover any terrible mu's Roy may have. And I mean like Bayo v Ganon, ZSS v Bowser/DK/R.O.B. or the supposed Mewtwo v Diddy kinda bad. If he has any like that. Got a list of options that I'll put in a spoiler:

Spoiler

is my immediate choice since he's been my secondary for a while. Has dtilt for a safe ground poke and a combo starter, fair combos and kills, he can kill with uthrow, bthrow and Shadow Ball too, nair sets up into combos and kills, his recovery is good thanks to his double jump, air dodge and Teleport being intangible, directional and avoiding 2 framing when going from above. Not sure if he covers Roy's bad mu's well though and his light weight may become an issue.
is the second immediate option since he's still my best character at the moment. I don't like his drawbacks but if he does better in a few mu's than Roy then I have no problem pulling him out for those.
is my third immediate choice. Not too big a fan of his over reliance on aerials and I'm super stingy on using Limit moves since it's my best recovery option and there's no confirms into LCS as far as I know but he's easy to use and he's another speedy swordsman like Roy.
is my next best character that isn't a low or bottom tier character and the last one that doesn't fall into those tiers that I can claim to have a solid understanding of. He has a long distance recovery, a safe ground poke in dtilt, an item to play with, combos from aerials and grabs, has a...sorta kill confirm though uair can be di'ed. I am however aware of his terrible mu's vs Cloud and ZSS and I wouldn't be surprised if he had others like Sheik that were also bad.
---
my next best character and one I've used in every game but I can still admit that he's terrible. No idea what he'd offer me over Roy especially since Roy DOES have a threatening move in fsmash and has tech chase scenarios and a good foxtrot to abuse it. Ganon has...better edgeguarding I guess? But pretty much worse everything else.
another character I'm really good with but again, he's terrible. Recovery with either terrible distance or no hitboxes at the end to cover him, a jab that doesn't function properly and a largerly worthless projectile. At least has a frame 1 reflector and a frame 3 aerial. Might have use vs projectile heavy characters like Villager, Mega Man or Olimar.
---
not hard to use, similar to Cloud in that regard but I cannot stand how overly reliant he is on grabs for damage and how he mostly fishes for usmash for kills unless you can read a fair spike offstage, gimp with FLUDD or get that footstool -> cape -> soft nair -> fsmash combo.
Not quite as good with her as I am with Ganon and Falco and she's still terrible. I honestly just have her as a pocket because she's one of like two characters left with a dair that always spikes, the other being Kirby. She has a reflector like Falco and it has intangibility too but eh. Din's Fire sucks, fair and bair mostly suck, recovering is hard, still super slow but hey, at least dtilt is good for combos.
overly reliant on grabs for both damage and kills but also super easy to use and I swear, they took Wolf's bair from Brawl and gave it to DK. More inclined to use DK over Bowser but either is an option.
next best characters for me after R.O.B. but they lack kill confirms, safe ground pokes and are easy to edgeguard. More inclined to use Dark Pit but I'd honestly use both if I picked them.
used to use them then stopped and got super rusty but I don't mind them. They're a bit boring since they focus on spacing and nearly nothing else but the former has ftilt for raw kills and sour uair and jab to go for kill options. Latter has a solid bair and nair to fsmash and plus they're a nice antithesis to my Roy since he wants to get in and they want to keep the opponent out.
genuinely interested in possibly picking this character up since he's fast like Roy, just need to learn his combo game some more. Helps that I use Falco in Melee and Wolf in Brawl so his fastfaller status and recovery options are nothing new to me. I also have no problem actually sitting back and using the blaster so yay to that.
pretty boring to me but I could probably get into him. He has dtilt, nair and grabs for combos and kill confirms so he has variety, not much for ground pokes and his recovery is easy to edgeguard plus he's slow but he's also easy to use.
over reliant on grabs for damage like Mario and a bit so for kills too thanks to that bthrow. Mostly dislike that recovery. Rosa, Lucas, Mii Gunner, Villager and other Ness' easily stop it, he's a sitting duck for pretty much anyone and you can treat it like Falcon's or Ganon's by tanking the hit, teching and it can cut the distance enough that he can't make it back. Easy to use though.
slight interest in using since I use Young Link in Melee but I'm not a fan of how floaty he is and his reliance on projectiles for combos. Also lacks a safe ground poke. At least he has bthrow for killing along with raw smashes and bomb set ups.
slight interest in using but I swear I'd overuse instapin. Seems like a beginner's trap kinda move. Other than that, I don't mind the character.
would use since he was my secondary in Brawl but...I can't stand how hard it is to kill with him in this game.
would use but similar to Mario on the over reliance on grabs for damage, at least has cyclone gimps among other options but the killer is that damn jumpless cyclone recovery. I'd rather not kill my fingers just for a secondary.
decent with him but...it's Mac. They sit on a platform cuz they always will ban FD or just not go to it if you ban and then what? Not much use for him that I can think of.
love the amount of options she has, nice projectile, nice recovery, nice pokes, starts combos from grabs and attacks, has kill confirms but the tech she has and reliance on stuff like perfect pivoting for some combos makes me think if I was ever gonna use her, I'd just main her.
similar case to Sheik but instead with float mechanics. If I was gonna use her, I'd likely just main her.
okay with but she seems overly reliant on Charge Shot for kills. Missiles suck, grab sucks, jab sucks at low percents. A lot of moves seem to lead into tech chase scenarios for Charge Shot meaning if you miss, you're out of your best kill option and the opponent can give you no room to get it back.
decent with, similar to Mac but from what I've read, his meta is basically get the lead then just sit back since you have bad approach options and are slow. Doesn't sound fun at all.
I like the added power but the lack of speed and recovery is a big turn off.
combos primarily from attacks but my god, the speed of those attacks and the options he has with them, the kill confirms. I'd love this character!...if I didn't have to use an input I'm not used to for his primary kill move...

Can't really give a tl;dr but Mewtwo seems like my best bet but I'm looking for insight from others. Looking to join the Roy discord to see what they think too.

 

[Heracr055]

Just another update with my progress.
I'm very happy with my decision to switch mains to ZSS. I'm still in my learning phase, so I'll switch to Ryu (previous main) if I lose to a really good player or a rude player. As a result, I'm improving my main while keeping my secondary sharp. I've struck a good balance, and despite messing with some other characters (Pikachu and M2), I think I'll stick with this pairing for awhile.

Also Krysco, the True Shoryuken input becomes second nature after a bit of practice

 

[Rubber]

Ok I have a problem, I am a devotedmain, but I can't deny that he sucks (no pun intended). I play most of the cast decently, but most of my favorite/best never make it past middle of the tier list. My top 10 characters are probably roughly in that order. I could never dropcompletely for he is my favorite character, but it's been causing me to struggle lately. Doesn't matter if I main them or secondary, I need to start playing a better character. Something I should probably mention is I have a hard time fighting projectile characters such as. I'll be honest I'm picky with which top/high tiers I like, but if I had to play a high tier it would be or.

oh and I will not play Fire Emblem characters. I just won't.

 

[Nah]

oh and I will not play Fire Emblem characters. I just won't.

I’m just curious is all: why?

 

[C0rvus]

Ok I have a problem, I am a devotedmain, but I can't deny that he sucks (no pun intended). I play most of the cast decently, but most of my favorite/best never make it past middle of the tier list. My top 10 characters are probably roughly in that order. I could never dropcompletely for he is my favorite character, but it's been causing me to struggle lately. Doesn't matter if I main them or secondary, I need to start playing a better character. Something I should probably mention is I have a hard time fighting projectile characters such as. I'll be honest I'm picky with which top/high tiers I like, but if I had to play a high tier it would be or.

oh and I will not play Fire Emblem characters. I just won't.

Bowser is quite capable and straightforward, so definitely keep him sharp. He and DK are probably the best pocket characters in the game. I can see why you struggle with very projectile heavy characters; none of your lineup have particularly strong anti-zoning tools (like a reflector I guess but you def don't need one). The obvious answer here is that Cloud bodies most of those characters, but I know you don't want to do that if you don't have to.

Have you ever considered giving Mewtwo a try? I think he could patch up those tough matchups nicely with essentially sword range, an all-purpose reflector, and strong zoning game of his own. He's practically the polar opposite of Dedede which could be good or bad. He's also a high tier character, which may be a deterrent for you.

There's also Pit. He's well rounded enough to be able to pull through most matchups with some hard work. Lucas could work too, sort of a "fighting fire with fire" idea. I guess the character depends on what you're looking for: a secondary that can handle Dedede's worst matchups but mostly exists as a counterpick, or would you rather have a co-main that you can reliably fall back on, while not ignoring the king?

 

[McKnightlíght]

My pro tip is don't play Zelda.